Vegetarians, Vegans...

fonecrusher1

Sisko wrote: »

This thread makes me feel hungry.

Me too, i'd love a cooked ostrich.

vaalea

strobe wrote: »

Lucky you. I have. Many many times.......Did you not read the thread or something? It is almost exclusively made up of vegetarians asking people to justify why they eat meat.

Did you not see the title and OP of this thread?

Guill wrote: »

As a meat loving man i cannot come to grips with the idea of rejecting meat for ever!



Fish, pork, Beef, Fowl its all too tasty. I have even started raising my own meat because it is even nicer than the supermarket sh1t. Dont get me wrong, i adore my fruit and veg too but a life without meat is my idea of hell.



So a question for the veggies/Vegans;



You reject your natural place in the food chain.

Why?



(feel free to rant and rave, i think veggies are mad already!)

I think we generally ignore threads on eating meat, but this one is asking us to defend ourselves and we in turn say it is really you that need defend yourself. What did you expect? gee

Cavehill Red

Merzbow wrote: »

"Thought" by you yeah? Anyway does it really matter what an extinct species diet was 100,000 years ago? It's hardly relevant to modern day humans.

Thought by me, yes, because that's what the experts think too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/787918.stm

Cro-Magnons effectively ate the same. So the myth that we're not built to eat meat is crap. We are. And we've barely evolved since, physiologically speaking.

El_Dangeroso

vaalea wrote: »

You want to me to provide such a meal plan, but are you seriously only eating local meat and vegetables in season here yourself? Unless you are I don't see why I have to provide the most absolutely perfect diet plan otherwise veganism isnt justified - ignoring all the disadvantages of your own diet. It's like saying you won't stop killing animals because it's not possible to do ABSOLUTELY no harm- not possible to live on just air alone, never crushing any insect underfoot. But I'll let the experts handle this one as I've posted before regarding locavore myth published on Forbes. I'm sure the guys at http://www.thehappypear.ie/education/ would be very helpful regarding local food and diet if you were genuinely interested.

I can easily provide a meal plan that is nutritious, local and sustainable. Most (I would say approx 70-80%) of what I eat all the time is local. Here's a sample menu:

Breakfast: Local pastured egg omlette (my friend keep the chickens, the diet is supplemented with a little grain but they are free to forage for insects and greens) with organic mushrooms, spinach and potato with a side of local free-range bacon from a farm not 50 miles from where I live. The pigs are fed food waste and potatoes.

Lunch: Locally caught mackerel fried in butter with some steamed kale.

Dinner: (this is dinner tonight actually!) Irish potatoes, carrots, parnsips, celery, spring onions and stewing beef all boiled for a few hours.

You're hanging your entire argument on the fact that vegan diets are more sustainable than meat based diets, if you can't even provide a list of one day of sustainable vegan food then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

flash1080

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Thought by me, yes, because that's what the experts think too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/787918.stm

Cro-Magnons effectively ate the same. So the myth that we're not built to eat meat is crap. We are. And we've barely evolved since, physiologically speaking.

And Dubs haven't evolved at all.

vaalea

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I can easily provide a meal plan that is nutritious, local and sustainable. Most (I would say approx 70-80%) of what I eat all the time is local. Here's a sample menu:

Breakfast: Local pastured egg omlette (my friend keep the chickens, the diet is supplemented with a little grain but they are free to forage for insects and greens) with organic mushrooms, spinach and potato with a side of local free-range bacon from a farm not 50 miles from where I live. The pigs are fed food waste and potatoes.

Lunch: Locally caught mackerel fried in butter with some steamed kale.

Dinner: (this is dinner tonight actually!) Irish potatoes, carrots, parnsips, celery, spring onions and stewing beef all boiled for a few hours.

You're hanging your entire argument on the fact that vegan diets are more sustainable than meat based diets, if you can't even provide a list of one day of sustainable vegan food then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

You seriously eat meat EVERY meal? Can you give me the nutrition figures on that? - cholestrol. also how is that a sustainable diet ie... sustainable for the general world population.

what I am trying to say is sustainable vegan does not necessarily = locavore.
If I said quinoa for breakfast would you say "aha, where is that grown in Ireland?"


Also I said that was ONE aspect for being vegan... it's the one you are choosing to focus on.

El_Dangeroso

vaalea wrote: »

You seriously eat meat EVERY meal? Can you give me the nutrition figures on that? - cholestrol. also how is that a sustainable diet ie... sustainable for the general world population.

what I am trying to say is sustainable vegan does not necessarily = locavore.
If I said quinoa for breakfast would you say "aha, where is that grown in Ireland?"


Also I said that was ONE aspect for being vegan... it's the one you are choosing to focus on.

So food miles don't count if it's vegan food then? I mean seriously, do you not see the inherent hypocrisy in that?

Btw, dietary cholesterol has nothing to do with blood levels of cholesterol, I can list many controlled scientific studies that show this. My portions of meat and fish are moderate, about the size of my palm. My diet is mostly composed of healthy fat, about 15% of my calories are from protein.

If the other aspect to being vegan is causing 'less harm', then tell me how you justify the fact that a pound of grain causes the death of more animals than a pound of grass-fed beef? How many insect, rabbit and mice lives are 'worth' one cow life?

Teferi

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Meat eaters who are obsessed with asking about vegetarians or challenging them always reminded me of straight people who are obsessed with talking about gay people and questioning them.

WHAT? You choose to be veggie/vegan. You don't choose to be gay, straight, bisexual or any other sort of sexual.

sensibleken

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

So food miles don't count if it's vegan food then? I mean seriously, do you not see the inherent hypocrisy in that?

No. Food miles has nothing to do with veganism. Its a seperate issue. Some vegans are concerned with the carbon footprint of their food. others not. some meat eaters are, others noy

maybe if the plane was using fossil fuels that havent quite been fossilised yet

El_Dangeroso

sensibleken wrote: »

No. Food miles has nothing to do with veganism. Its a seperate issue. Some vegans are concerned with the carbon footprint of their food. others not. some meat eaters are, others noy

maybe if the plane was using fossil fuels that havent quite been fossilised yet

But the whole point was that meat eating is unsustainable. Seems to me that eating full stop is unsustainable when you use industrial scale agriculture. When you use local non-intensive farming, things get a lot better, but it's practically impossible to do this as a vegan in Ireland. Maybe that's why the only poor people who are vegetarian live close to the equator.

vaalea

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Thought by me, yes, because that's what the experts think too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/787918.stm

Cro-Magnons effectively ate the same. So the myth that we're not built to eat meat is crap. We are. And we've barely evolved since, physiologically speaking.

Just because they ate meat, doesn't mean we are built to eat meat. Cows these days are fed fish meal, are they really meant to eat fish? Tell me what other creatures cook their food.

Merzbow

vaalea wrote: »

Just because they ate meat, doesn't mean we are built to eat meat. Cows these days are fed fish meal, are they really meant to eat fish? Tell me what other creatures cook their food.

There's no point arguing with him, if someone can't grasp the concept that the diet of an extinct species who lived 100,000 years ago is irrelevant to the diet of humans today well..

vaalea

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

So food miles don't count if it's vegan food then? I mean seriously, do you not see the inherent hypocrisy in that?

Btw, dietary cholesterol has nothing to do with blood levels of cholesterol, I can list many controlled scientific studies that show this. My portions of meat and fish are moderate, about the size of my palm. My diet is mostly composed of healthy fat, about 15% of my calories are from protein.

If the other aspect to being vegan is causing 'less harm', then tell me how you justify the fact that a pound of grain causes the death of more animals than a pound of grass-fed beef? How many insect, rabbit and mice lives are 'worth' one cow life?

Did you read the locavore article on Forbes? sometimes it is more efficient to transport large quantities all at once than small quanties shuttled here and there. It's not just as simple as "food miles."

you are thinking of sustainability in a bubble with no consideration of the rest of the world. hunting bison on the prairies of now Canada may have been sustainable for the native population, but absolutely not for the Canadian population today. Can you not widen your view of the world and what is sustainable in the big picture? For humans, eating grass fed free-range beef is unsustainable today just as free-range grass eating bison would be.

El_Dangeroso

vaalea wrote: »

Did you read the locavore article on Forbes? sometimes it is more efficient to transport large quantities all at once than small quanties shuttled here and there. It's not just as simple as "food miles."

you are thinking of sustainability in a bubble with no consideration of the rest of the world. hunting bison on the prairies of now Canada may have been sustainable for the native population, but absolutely not for the Canadian population today. Can you not widen your view of the world and what is sustainable in the big picture? For humans, eating grass fed free-range beef is unsustainable today just as free-range grass eating bison would be.

You are thinking of sustainability as a blanket policy that can be applied to the whole world equally, you think that the eco-system of Ireland is equivalent to the eco-system of Peru.

You still have yet to provide a reason why your imported quinoa is more sustainable than my local beef. Is the grass going to run out? Because no matter how efficient the form of transportation the oil IS running out, and when it does there will be less food full stop, this will probably put an end to cheap factory-farmed beef, which will make us both happy but it will put an end to cheap imported grain too. What will you eat then?

Still waiting for an answer to the question of how many small animal's lives are worth one cow's?

Merzbow

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

You are thinking of sustainability as a blanket policy that can be applied to the whole world equally, you think that the eco-system of Ireland is equivalent to the eco-system of Peru.

You still have yet to provide a reason why your imported quinoa is more sustainable than my local beef. Is the grass going to run out? Because no matter how efficient the form of transportation the oil IS running out, and when it does there will be less food full stop, this will probably put an end to cheap factory-farmed beef, which will make us both happy but it will put an end to cheap imported grain too. What will you eat then?

Still waiting for an answer to the question of how many small animal's lives are worth one cow's?

Some interesting points there, oil is running out yes but there will come other sources of energy (or just better technology in harnessing of existing ones - wind, solar, hydro, etc) so I don't think transport will have an impact on the level of meat consumption.

I do think though with a growing world population, at some point in the future land simply must be used as efficiently as possible. The land and resources required to grow enough grass/grain/etc to feed a single cow or chicken, to be then slaughtered for human consumption can never be as efficient (yield as much food) as if we just directly consumed the grain ourselves.

El_Dangeroso

Merzbow wrote: »

Some interesting points there, oil is running out yes but there will come other sources of energy (or just better technology in harnessing of existing ones - wind, solar, hydro, etc) so I don't think transport will have an impact on the level of meat consumption.

I do think though with a growing world population, at some point in the future land simply must be used as efficiently as possible. The land and resources required to grow enough grass/grain/etc to feed a single cow or chicken, to be then slaughtered for human consumption can never be as efficient (yield as much food) as if we just directly consumed the grain ourselves.

I really hope you're right about alternative energy. We could feed 1 billion people before the advent of oil, now we can feed around 8 billion, most of them subsist on grain and very little animal protein at all. That is not a nice sum to calculate if the reverse happens.

Most land in Ireland is unsuitable to grain production, except for parts of the very south, we just don't have the climate. You can keep sheep and goats on the side of a mountain where nothing with substantial calories can be grown. In that instance, rearing livestock is the most efficient use of that land.

postgrad23

Guill wrote: »

Surely becoming a Vegan or vegitarian is a reflection on society and how it has changed so much. People have too much money and can afford to reject meat.

Meat is the most expensive part of most people's diets. For the same amount of protein from beans or whatever you pay far less. Poor countries usually have low meat diets. Rich countries like the USA eat the most meat.

I don't care what other people eat because it's not important and it doesn't affect me. There aren't such heated debates over whether you insulate your house or not, so I don't know why people are so defensive about food miles and resources needed to rear beef.

If the almost vegan Chinese are healthier than us, and the almost carnivorous Inuit are healthier than us, it shows that we can eat most types of diets and get the nutrients we need.

--Kaiser--

I found an interesting study which may explain some of the posts I've been reading here.

lenny1000

hiya guys

I've been veggie since 11 years old now heading towards 40 . parents went veggie when I as 8 years old. Have a sister who eats meat, has done all her life and its her choice. Gotta say me and parents are very healthy looking none of us have any health problems including parents ready for retirement -not many parents can say that. I am a healthy size 8, look late 20s and my parents look early 50s... lot to be said for eating healthy however that said we all still eat curries, pizzas and chipper chips with gravy (its vegetarian ask your chipper) !!!

I cook and buy meat for my fella. my parents cook and buy meat for those meat eaters at xmas dinner... you cant force your opinions on others and I never understand veggietarians who refuse to eat meat with meat eaters at a table they are just being difficult. I would never try and force people to stop eating meat - each to their own.

The main reasons that we all went veggie was the way animals are treated before slaughter - if you saw a distressed animal having its throat slit open might make you think about what your eating ... but I say 50% dont know what goes on in slaughterhouses and the rest dont care - like I said each to their own

lenny1000

in the post above I said I dont understand veggies who wont eat at a table with meat eaters - in the same breath I dont understand meat eaters who feel the need to argue the toss about eating meat !!!

Absurdum

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I found an interesting study which may explain some of the posts I've been reading here.

Your opinions don't surprise me since you're taking pointers from Barry Groves, who is pretty much a nutjob.

Here are a couple of infinitely more credible studies that Groves:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6180753.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8127215.stm

More on Groves:
http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-electronic-engineers-and-dietary-advice.html
http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-the-misinformation-of-barry-groves-and-weston-price.html

OutlawPete

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I found an interesting study which may explain some of the posts I've been reading here.

That's very unfair, are you saying that because meat eaters consume animal flesh that they have roasted at very high temperatures, they then go on to have unhealthy bodies and ultimately inflammation of the brain?? :eek:

sh1tstirrer

lenny1000 wrote: »

hiya guys

I've been veggie since 11 years old now heading towards 40 . parents went veggie when I as 8 years old. Have a sister who eats meat, has done all her life and its her choice. Gotta say me and parents are very healthy looking none of us have any health problems including parents ready for retirement -not many parents can say that. I am a healthy size 8, look late 20s and my parents look early 50s... lot to be said for eating healthy however that said we all still eat curries, pizzas and chipper chips with gravy (its vegetarian ask your chipper) !!!

I cook and buy meat for my fella. my parents cook and buy meat for those meat eaters at xmas dinner... you cant force your opinions on others and I never understand veggietarians who refuse to eat meat with meat eaters at a table they are just being difficult. I would never try and force people to stop eating meat - each to their own.

The main reasons that we all went veggie was the way animals are treated before slaughter - if you saw a distressed animal having its throat slit open might make you think about what your eating ... but I say 50% dont know what goes on in slaughterhouses and the rest dont care - like I said each to their own

You are 40 and you look late 20's maybe if you posted a few pictures of yourself. But then how do we know it's you?

The few vegetarians I know are in their late teens early twenties and are very pale and unhealthy looking.

El_Dangeroso

lenny1000 wrote: »

The main reasons that we all went veggie was the way animals are treated before slaughter - if you saw a distressed animal having its throat slit open might make you think about what your eating ... but I say 50% dont know what goes on in slaughterhouses and the rest dont care - like I said each to their own

Eh, unless they are very dim I think you'll find that 100% of people know what goes on in slaughterhouses.

But I know what you are saying, we as a society are divorced from where our food comes from, this includes a lot of vegetarians too. But I don't think we'd be eating meat for 2 million years if the sight of slaughter was the only thing required to become vegetarian. Slaughter of animals would have something everyone would have witnessed more than a century ago.

Temple Grandin did a great amount of work to ensure that slaughter caused the least distress as possible to the animal and her techniques are now used in most slaughterhouses. Death in nature is far more painful and gruesome than what most farm animals experience I assure you.

Don't forget that a distressed animal at death uses up all their glycogen. The glycogen is what converts to lactic acid and tenderises the meat. Happy, relaxed well treated animals = tasty meat.

lenny1000

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

You are 40 and you look late 20's maybe if you posted a few pictures of yourself. But then how do we know it's you?

The few vegetarians I know are in their late teens early twenties and are very pale and unhealthy looking.

its me alrite I am actually late 30s. no i wont post a pic !!! I've been told by lots I look younger than my years and parents are the same hardly any wrinkles. Might be genes, might be the veggie diet or could be because if you act young you stay young !!

not sure why veggies would look pale isnt that something to do with weather in ireland rather than not eating a steak?? anyway being pale is a positive thing you wont end up looking like a wrinkled bit of leather when your older !!!

sh1tstirrer

lenny1000 wrote: »

The main reasons that we all went veggie was the way animals are treated before slaughter - if you saw a distressed animal having its throat slit open might make you think about what your eating ... but I say 50% dont know what goes on in slaughterhouses and the rest dont care - like I said each to their own

Bullsh1t, I have been in a slaughterhouse more than once, they don't get their throats slit they use a humane killer which causes instant death. I think you are looking at too many youtube videos and reading too much PETA nonsense. Unless you are living in south America.

lenny1000

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Bullsh1t, I have been in a slaughterhouse more than once, they don't get their throats slit they use a humane killer which causes instant death. I think you are looking at too many youtube videos and reading too much PETA nonsense. Unless you are living in south America.

some slaughterhouses use stun guns but some for halal meat slit the animals throat and leave them to die in pain. Muslims wont eat animals that are killed with a stun guns so yes slitting animals throats goes on everywhere muslims live and that includes Ireland

lenny1000

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Eh, unless they are very dim I think you'll find that 100% of people know what goes on in slaughterhouses.

But I know what you are saying, we as a society are divorced from where our food comes from, this includes a lot of vegetarians too. But I don't think we'd be eating meat for 2 million years if the sight of slaughter was the only thing required to become vegetarian. Slaughter of animals would have something everyone would have witnessed more than a century ago.

Temple Grandin did a great amount of work to ensure that slaughter caused the least distress as possible to the animal and her techniques are now used in most slaughterhouses. Death in nature is far more painful and gruesome than what most farm animals experience I assure you.

Don't forget that a distressed animal at death uses up all their glycogen. The glycogen is what converts to lactic acid and tenderises the meat. Happy, relaxed well treated animals = tasty meat.

hello

a lot of younger people are oblivious to how animals are kept and killed

i agree donkeys years ago people killed animals for themselves whereas now adays it comes all wrapped up in the supermarket for them. they are detached from what they are eating and how it has got on their plate. But if people dont want to learn how their steak got on their plate then its up to them.. I wont force arguments on others each to their own...

disagree with the last comment halal meat is a painful way to die.

sh1tstirrer

lenny1000 wrote: »

some slaughterhouses use stun guns but some for halal meat slit the animals throat and leave them to die in pain. Muslims wont eat animals that are killed with a stun guns so yes slitting animals throats goes on everywhere muslims live and that includes Ireland

Your knowledge of slaughterhouses is very limited. A stun gun is used to disable a victim using an electric shock and has nothing to do with slaughtering animals. Saying that animals throats are slit in Irish slaughterhouses is a complete lie.

lenny1000

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Your knowledge of slaughterhouses is very limited. A stun gun is used to disable a victim using an electric shock and has nothing to do with slaughtering animals. Saying that animals throats are slit in Irish slaughterhouses is a complete lie.

apologies if i am wrong - where do the irish muslims buy their meat then?

even if they import it from another country the animal has still had a painful death... doesnt make it any better for the animal just because it hasnt died in Ireland.

ok. say the animals in ireland are killed by a electric shock only can we defo be sure that they are dead before they are cut up? Are they kept in pleasant conditions suitable for the animal before they die?

i dont like the thought of hurting any animal unnecessarily and I dont think its essential to your existence to eat meat - you wouldnt die if you didnt have your big mac or sausage roll... its up to you if u eat meat i was just trying to explain the reason i dont eat meat..