Vegetarians, Vegans...

eddie the eagle

well i go back to my earlier point. how about a school trip in transition year to a slaughter house, where each kid gets to kill a cow/chicken/pig. similar to say a trip to the firestation where we get to appreciate the process which is involved. it might go a long way to restoring the respect we have for animals which we would have had in the past. more respect for the convenient package which makes its way to our tables.

lenny1000

eddie the eagle wrote: »

well i go back to my earlier point. how about a school trip in transition year to a slaughter house, where each kid gets to kill a cow/chicken/pig. similar to say a trip to the firestation where we get to appreciate the process which is involved. it might go a long way to restoring the respect we have for animals which we would have had in the past. more respect for the convenient package which makes its way to our tables.

hiya eddie

I agree with your post only wouldnt like to see a kid hacking an animal to death they could watch though. the noise of the animals waiting for gun would be enough to put kids off let alone watching it be killed. my dad delivered to a slaughterhouse in the 70s and came home and told my mum that was it he wasnt eating meat anymore because of the screams the animals made when they were waiting in line to be killed. mum agreed straight away..

sh1tstirrer

lenny1000 wrote: »

apologies if i am wrong - where do the irish muslims buy their meat then?

even if they import it from another country the animal has still had a painful death... doesnt make it any better for the animal just because it hasnt died in Ireland.

ok. say the animals in ireland are killed by a electric shock only can we defo be sure that they are dead before they are cut up? Are they kept in pleasant conditions suitable for the animal before they die?

I don't know where muslims in Ireland get their meat. Animals in Ireland are killed using a humane killer it is like a gun, pistol. they are shot in the forehead it causes instant death hence the name humane killer.

sh1tstirrer

lenny1000 wrote: »

hiya eddie

I agree with your post only wouldnt like to see a kid hacking an animal to death they could watch though. the noise of the animals waiting for gun would be enough to put kids off let alone watching it be killed. my dad delivered to a slaughterhouse in the 70s and came home and told my mum that was it he wasnt eating meat anymore because of the screams the animals made when they were waiting in line to be killed. mum agreed straight away..

I've been working with cattle all my life and have never heard them screaming also seen cattle being slaughtered no screaming :rolleyes: honestly the more you write the more ridiculous you sound.

El_Dangeroso

eddie the eagle wrote: »

well i go back to my earlier point. how about a school trip in transition year to a slaughter house, where each kid gets to kill a cow/chicken/pig. similar to say a trip to the firestation where we get to appreciate the process which is involved. it might go a long way to restoring the respect we have for animals which we would have had in the past. more respect for the convenient package which makes its way to our tables.

I totally agree with this, and I think it's something that vegetarians misunderstand that there is such a thing as a thoughtful meat-eater who has respect for the fact that something has to die so they can nourish themselves. Most traditional hunter-gatheres have great respect for nature and know their place in it. Here's a particularly moving video showing a tribe involved in a persistence hunt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUpo_mA5RP8

lenny1000

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

I don't know where muslims in Ireland get their meat. Animals in Ireland are killed using a humane killer it is like a gun, pistol. they are shot in the forehead it causes instant death hence the name humane killer.

are chickens and ducks killed with a pistol?

lenny1000

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

I've been working with cattle all my life and have never heard them screaming also seen cattle being slaughtered no screaming :rolleyes: honestly the more you write the more ridiculous you sound.

my dad doesnt lie.

so you dont hear anything then? do the animals waiting in line to die stand in silence? you have never seen one animal in distress ?

lenny1000

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I totally agree with this, and I think it's something that vegetarians misunderstand that there is such a thing as a thoughtful meat-eater who has respect for the fact that something has to die so they can nourish themselves. Most traditional hunter-gatheres have great respect for nature and know their place in it. Here's a particularly moving video showing a tribe involved in a persistence hunt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUpo_mA5RP8

sorry El Dangeroso I couldnt watch it but imagine its about a tribe who kill because they need food. Difference here is we dont live in a tribe we live in a city which has amples of veg and fruit. its your choice to eat meat same as my partners but its something I dont want to do.

vaalea

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Your knowledge of slaughterhouses is very limited. A stun gun is used to disable a victim using an electric shock and has nothing to do with slaughtering animals. Saying that animals throats are slit in Irish slaughterhouses is a complete lie.

HEHEHEHEHE..... a captive bolt gun is sometimes referred to as a stun gun... which is what they use at slaughterhouses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/sep/14/religion.animalwelfare
"Tariq shakes his head sadly. 'It is far less stressful than the English method. They give big electric shocks to the animal, bolts to the head, sometimes two, three times before it works. It's horrible. With halal, the blood is drained in a matter of seconds. Listen... ' and he scoops up the phone to call one of his slaughterhouses, to ask how long it takes a cow to die by each method. The handset is replaced with some satisfaction. 'You see? Thirty-five to 38 seconds, English side. Eight seconds halal side. I know for a fact English-style is more stressful.'
The fact of the matter is that the meat Tariq sells - which is certified as halal - was stunned before it was slaughtered.

'It's not as though it's dead,' he quickly explains. 'Stunning just gives you five seconds to get the chain around its leg and get it into a position to slaughter. It's not like an English stun, it just lasts five seconds, that's all. At the point that the throat is slashed, the animal has revived. It is kicking.'

And yet Tariq's own idea of an acceptable solution is dismissed by the manager of a slaughterhouse in Ireland which supplies halal beef to Europe. A nervous, softly-spoken man, he would only speak anonymously. 'Could we stun a cow only for a few seconds, to get the chain around it, and no more?' he says. 'Frankly, no. We couldn't. There has to be a degree of unconsciousness at the point of slaughter, to make sure there is no suffering. We have to get a balance which satisfies animal welfare on one side and halal on the other, and that means stunning the animal properly before it is slaughtered. What we'd like to see is a situation where our Muslim friends could be convinced that it's just not necessary to have a pure slaughter.'

His abattoir used to practise 'pure' slaughter. It was supplying the Middle East and North African markets, which demanded nothing less than 100 per cent stun-free ritual slaughter. But since 2000, when those regions banned European beef because of BSE, his abattoir has been fully stunning livestock for the European halal market. But if the Eastern ban was lifted and those markets reopened, would he get rid of stunning? He hesitates. 'Pure slaughter... I don't know. Speaking personally, I found it difficult myself. Just, er, visually and all that...'

etc etc etc

What do YOU know about slaughterhouses?
The animals need to have their heart continue pumping the blood out for slaughter. They are not dead at this point.

eddie the eagle

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I totally agree with this, and I think it's something that vegetarians misunderstand that there is such a thing as a thoughtful meat-eater who has respect for the fact that something has to die so they can nourish themselves. Most traditional hunter-gatheres have great respect for nature and know their place in it. Here's a particularly moving video showing a tribe involved in a persistence hunt:

cool vid. thats the whole process there. as a vegetarian i have no problem at all with that.

i have spent some time in the peruvian amazon and went on a serious 3 week trek with a tribe into the deep amazon. everyday these guys needed to kill to eat, so some days it was a monkey (one it turned out was pregnant), a few turtles, two macaws, which were short early on and kept alive on our raft to stay fresh, and plucked alive while their mates circled screaming overhead for a couple of hours as we winded down the river. it wasn't the most pleasant of things to be sitting beside these beautiful birds which smell like sweet cats, but that was how it was.

but the whole process of quietly getting from the raft and hunting these animals with different techniques was done with a lot of respect. even the tribe were a bit upset when it turned out the monkey was preggers. and i wasn't all that happy that the knife used to chop the veg was also used to strip her hair off after she was burned in the fire. but what could i do. i had to eat.

energy wise tho, and also to the suprise of the tribe with me not eating meat, i was fine. i wasn't just eating veg tho as i had some magic beans with me :pac:. and the bag of salt too was very important for us. but when we got back we were all strung out for sugar. god bless cold coca cola:D

sh1tstirrer

lenny1000 wrote: »

are chickens and ducks killed with a pistol?

I don't know of any slaughterhouses killing chickens in Ireland. As far as I know nearly all chicken is imported.

lenny1000

vaalea wrote: »

HEHEHEHEHE..... a captive bolt gun is sometimes referred to as a stun gun... which is what they use at slaughterhouses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/sep/14/religion.animalwelfare
"Tariq shakes his head sadly. 'It is far less stressful than the English method. They give big electric shocks to the animal, bolts to the head, sometimes two, three times before it works. It's horrible. With halal, the blood is drained in a matter of seconds. Listen... ' and he scoops up the phone to call one of his slaughterhouses, to ask how long it takes a cow to die by each method. The handset is replaced with some satisfaction. 'You see? Thirty-five to 38 seconds, English side. Eight seconds halal side. I know for a fact English-style is more stressful.'
The fact of the matter is that the meat Tariq sells - which is certified as halal - was stunned before it was slaughtered.

'It's not as though it's dead,' he quickly explains. 'Stunning just gives you five seconds to get the chain around its leg and get it into a position to slaughter. It's not like an English stun, it just lasts five seconds, that's all. At the point that the throat is slashed, the animal has revived. It is kicking.'

And yet Tariq's own idea of an acceptable solution is dismissed by the manager of a slaughterhouse in Ireland which supplies halal beef to Europe. A nervous, softly-spoken man, he would only speak anonymously. 'Could we stun a cow only for a few seconds, to get the chain around it, and no more?' he says. 'Frankly, no. We couldn't. There has to be a degree of unconsciousness at the point of slaughter, to make sure there is no suffering. We have to get a balance which satisfies animal welfare on one side and halal on the other, and that means stunning the animal properly before it is slaughtered. What we'd like to see is a situation where our Muslim friends could be convinced that it's just not necessary to have a pure slaughter.'

His abattoir used to practise 'pure' slaughter. It was supplying the Middle East and North African markets, which demanded nothing less than 100 per cent stun-free ritual slaughter. But since 2000, when those regions banned European beef because of BSE, his abattoir has been fully stunning livestock for the European halal market. But if the Eastern ban was lifted and those markets reopened, would he get rid of stunning? He hesitates. 'Pure slaughter... I don't know. Speaking personally, I found it difficult myself. Just, er, visually and all that...'

etc etc etc

What do YOU know about slaughterhouses?
The animals need to have their heart continue pumping the blood out for slaughter. They are not dead at this point.

great post !

both ways seem horrific i cant believe it goes on everyday..

El_Dangeroso

lenny1000 wrote: »

sorry El Dangeroso I couldnt watch it but imagine its about a tribe who kill because they need food. Difference here is we dont live in a tribe we live in a city which has amples of veg and fruit. its your choice to eat meat same as my partners but its something I dont want to do.

They have ample access to starchy vegetables, fruits and nuts in that area of Africa. They still hunt, same story around the world, you'll never find a vegan primitive tribe, no matter how abundant the availability of plant nutrition. There has to be a reason for this.

El_Dangeroso

eddie the eagle wrote: »

i have spent some time in the peruvian amazon and went on a serious 3 week trek with a tribe into the deep amazon. everyday these guys needed to kill to eat, so some days it was a monkey (one it turned out was pregnant), a few turtles, two macaws, which were short early on and kept alive on our raft to stay fresh, and plucked alive while their mates circled screaming overhead for a couple of hours as we winded down the river. it wasn't the most pleasant of things to be sitting beside these beautiful birds which smell like sweet cats, but that was how it was.

but the whole process of quietly getting from the raft and hunting these animals with different techniques was done with a lot of respect. even the tribe were a bit upset when it turned out the monkey was preggers. and i wasn't all that happy that the knife used to chop the veg was also used to strip her hair off after she was burned in the fire. but what could i do. i had to eat.

You lucky fecker, that's my dream holiday!

lenny1000

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

I don't know of any slaughterhouses killing chickens in Ireland. As far as I know nearly all chicken is imported.

there are chickens living in ireland. I cant imagine they are all kept till their old age and then die peacefully in their sleep. Most of them have to end up on a dinner plate and if so how are they killed and who monitors it?

sh1tstirrer

vaalea wrote: »

What do YOU know about slaughterhouses?
The animals need to have their heart continue pumping the blood out for slaughter. They are not dead at this point.

Obviously a lot more than you :rolleyes: That link is nonsense like PETA use to put people off eating meat. Cattle are killed instantly in Irish slaughterhouses saying that they need to have their hearts pumping during slaughter is total nonsense.

lenny1000

eddie the eagle wrote: »

cool vid. thats the whole process there. as a vegetarian i have no problem at all with that.

i have spent some time in the peruvian amazon and went on a serious 3 week trek with a tribe into the deep amazon. everyday these guys needed to kill to eat, so some days it was a monkey (one it turned out was pregnant), a few turtles, two macaws, which were short early on and kept alive on our raft to stay fresh, and plucked alive while their mates circled screaming overhead for a couple of hours as we winded down the river. it wasn't the most pleasant of things to be sitting beside these beautiful birds which smell like sweet cats, but that was how it was.

but the whole process of quietly getting from the raft and hunting these animals with different techniques was done with a lot of respect. even the tribe were a bit upset when it turned out the monkey was preggers. and i wasn't all that happy that the knife used to chop the veg was also used to strip her hair off after she was burned in the fire. but what could i do. i had to eat.

energy wise tho, and also to the suprise of the tribe with me not eating meat, i was fine. i wasn't just eating veg tho as i had some magic beans with me :pac:. and the bag of salt too was very important for us. but when we got back we were all strung out for sugar. god bless cold coca cola:D

i agree with your post its necessary to kill animals when you live in part of the world where you have no alternative and if push comes to shove I would eat meat if I had to survive but only if I didnt have any other choice.. could they have not killed the bird before plucking it?

eddie the eagle

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

You lucky fecker, that's my dream holiday!

great memories but the toughest thing i've ever done by far. highly reccomend it tho.

Cavehill Red

vaalea wrote: »

Just because they ate meat, doesn't mean we are built to eat meat. Cows these days are fed fish meal, are they really meant to eat fish? Tell me what other creatures cook their food.

African predators LOVE prowling for cooked meat after a forest fire. If they could cook, they probably would cook. But since no other creature is sentient, they don't.

And yes, because Cro-Magnon was built to eat meat DOES mean we are built to eat meat, since we've not evolved notably since physiologically.

Now, I eat and cook vegetarian a lot of the time. I like Indian and Thai food and I like cooking those cuisines, which being non-Western aren't meat-heavy.

But the only argument I see in favour of vegetarianism is the freedom to do what you want to do one. You want to avoid meat at all times? No problem. Go right ahead with my blessing.

All the other arguments (cruelty to animals, healthier, we're not meant to eat meat, etc) don't stand up to the scrutiny of scientific evidence.

sh1tstirrer

lenny1000 wrote: »

there are chickens living in ireland. I cant imagine they are all kept till their old age and then die peacefully in their sleep. Most of them have to end up on a dinner plate and if so how are they killed and who monitors it?

They are mostly the laying kind that die of old age at 4/7 years. Not too many people would eat an old tough hen. I would agree with you on one thing that chickens that end up on supermarket shelves for 2/3 euro must have fairly miserable lives if the owner has to make a profit from them. They aren't produced on Irish farms though as no Irish farmer could make a profit at that price.

lenny1000

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

They have ample access to starchy vegetables, fruits and nuts in that area of Africa. They still hunt, same story around the world, you'll never find a vegan primitive tribe, no matter how abundant the availability of plant nutrition. There has to be a reason for this.

difficult one alrite...

the only thing I can think of is we are different because we live in a society which protects animals ie we have pets which we love, feed, pamper and keep safe until the end of their life i presume, i dont know, that tribes dont keep pets. I know they keep animals but whether they have a relationship like we do with our pets I wouldnt have thought so... Because we are a nation of pet lovers this probably makes some of us think a little different bout animals and not just the welfare of our pets. I could be wrong so dont jump down my throat !!

eddie the eagle

lenny1000 wrote: »

i agree with your post its necessary to kill animals when you live in part of the world where you have no alternative and if push comes to shove I would eat meat if I had to survive but only if I didnt have any other choice.. could they have not killed the bird before plucking it?

well the way they explained to me was to keep it fresh for later. it was about 1 in the afternoon when they got them. (legendary shot btw, two macaws shot with one shotgun cartridge) we weren't going to be looking for a place to camp riverside until about half four. i guess about 3 one guy started plucking them to get ready for dinner. i cant say i know what his internal intentions were as he plucked the bird, but judging how these guys interact with nature in general i wouldn't imagine they were bad.

it wasn't the happiest of situations tbh what with their mates following us and the birds on the raft screaming to them overhead. but as shown in the vid these guys had a lot of respect for the food which they ate.

lenny1000

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

They are mostly the laying kind that die of old age at 4/7 years. Not too many people would eat an old tough hen. I would agree with you on one thing that chickens that end up on supermarket shelves for 2/3 euro must have fairly miserable lives if the owner has to make a profit from them. They aren't produced on Irish farms though as no Irish farmer could make a profit at that price.

thanks, nice to know we agree on one thing

vaalea

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Obviously a lot more than you :rolleyes: That link is nonsense like PETA use to put people off eating meat. Cattle are killed instantly in Irish slaughterhouses saying that they need to have their hearts pumping during slaughter is total nonsense.

Obviously you know nothing... just because you dont like the truth you cant push it away as -PETA-,

1. Cattle are rendered unconscious by applying an electric shock of 300 volts and 2 amps to the back of the head, effectively stunning the animal,[10] or by use of a captive bolt pistol to the front of the cow's head (a pneumatic or cartridge-fired captive bolt). Swine can be rendered unconscious by CO2/inert gas stunning. (This step is prohibited under strict application of Halal and Kashrut codes.)
2. Animals are hung upside down by both of their hind legs on the processing line.
3. The carotid artery and jugular vein are severed with a knife, blood drains, causing death through exsanguination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse



Wondering about whether chickens are slaughtered in Ireland.... what about the horse slaughter industry here?

lenny1000

eddie the eagle wrote: »

well the way they explained to me was to keep it fresh for later. it was about 1 in the afternoon when they got them. (legendary shot btw, two macaws shot with one shotgun cartridge) we weren't going to be looking for a place to camp riverside until about half four. i guess about 3 one guy started plucking them to get ready for dinner. i cant say i know what his internal intentions were as he plucked the bird, but judging how these guys interact with nature in general i wouldn't imagine they were bad.

it wasn't the happiest of situations tbh what with their mates following us and the birds on the raft screaming to them overhead. but as shown in the vid these guys had a lot of respect for the food which they ate.

I understand the keeping fresh part even though its horrific but why not wring the birds neck then pluck it... would still be fresh.

eddie the eagle

lenny1000 wrote: »

I understand the keeping fresh part even though its horrific but why not wring the birds neck then pluck it... would still be fresh.

i cant say i know tbh, i dont know what sort of effect the birds laying dead for 3 or 4 hours in 35 degrees would have on the meat. maybe its too short of a time for any effect. maybe they didn't want more flies following us. im not sure. i had minimal spanish as did the tribe

sh1tstirrer

vaalea wrote: »

Obviously you know nothing... just because you dont like the truth you cant push it away as -PETA-,

1. Cattle are rendered unconscious by applying an electric shock of 300 volts and 2 amps to the back of the head, effectively stunning the animal,[10] or by use of a captive bolt pistol to the front of the cow's head (a pneumatic or cartridge-fired captive bolt). Swine can be rendered unconscious by CO2/inert gas stunning. (This step is prohibited under strict application of Halal and Kashrut codes.)
2. Animals are hung upside down by both of their hind legs on the processing line.
3. The carotid artery and jugular vein are severed with a knife, blood drains, causing death through exsanguination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse



Wondering about whether chickens are slaughtered in Ireland.... what about the horse slaughter industry here?

Try visiting an Irish slaughterhouse like I have instead of using the internet for your information. How many slaughterhouses or meat factories as they are called here have you been in?

Irish Guitarist

A pro-vegetarian quote

John Muir, naturalist and explorer wrote:

The world, we are told, was made especially for man – a presumption not supported by all the facts.… Why should man value himself as more than a small part of the one great unit of creation?

An anti-vegetarian quote

flash1080 wrote: »

****ing hippies

vaalea

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Try visiting an Irish slaughterhouse like I have instead of using the internet for your information. How many slaughterhouses or meat factories as they are called here have you been in?

If Irish slaughterhouses are the exception and do not stun and bleed out the animals, then why would the Irish Food Safety website http://www.fsai.ie/content.aspx?id=4968&LangType=1033 state STUNNING & BLEEDING

smokedeels

I hope you enjoy eating your meat, but tbh the idea of eating dead animals makes me feel sick. Each to his own.