Vegetarians, Vegans...

i57dwun4yb1pt8

anyone who wastes their lives / time / saturdays worrying or commenting about what other people eat is a 100% moron-a-tarian

particularly on the internet , its so sad .

vaalea

also re: B12... do you know where it comes from? The cows get it from the ground, and some vegans choose not to wash their veggies in order to get their B12 naturally. http://healthmad.com/nutrition/why-vegans-shouldnt-wash-their-vegetables/
I'm happy with fortified foods, supplements or nutritional yeast but it can't be claimed that it's unnatural to be vegan because B12 isn't in the diet.

nervous_twitch

DaDumTish wrote: »

anyone who wastes their lives / time / saturdays worrying or commenting about what other people eat is a 100% moron-a-tarian

particularly on the internet , its so sad .

?! anybody who wastes any time on the internet, talking with other anonymous people about certain topics is a sad, friendless individual.

smellslikeshoes

Oh I didn't know it was time for our twice monthly veggie bashing thread :rolleyes:

El_Dangeroso

vaalea wrote: »

As for grass fed




Native species are threatened by grazing livestock. http://rangenet.org/directory/witzemanr/tool/

The grass-fed meat I buy direct from the farmer in Roscommon has way less of an environmental impact than the soybeans that travel hundreds of miles to make up a good proportion of most vegetarian diets. The cows are fed grass on land that is unsuitable for cultivating crops and finished with a small amount of oats grown non-intensively by the farmer, so less animals are killed in the process of making my steak than your piece of tofu. How's that for 'less harm'?

Also, I have no problem with saturated fat, it's good for you, coconut oil is really high in saturated fat too and most vegans have no problem eating it.

ScumLord

vaalea wrote: »

As for grass fed




Native species are threatened by grazing livestock. http://rangenet.org/directory/witzemanr/tool/

Report about American grass feeding. It doesn't apply in Ireland. That fact is Irish wildlife has adapted to farming as it's been widespread in Europe for so long. Arizona is a dry wasteland and can't be compared to Ireland at all.

Sauvignon82 wrote: »

I've thought like this since I was a kid, and just can't understand why I, as an 'intelligent, advanced life-form',

We're no more advanced than any other animal on the planet, Humans are not something separate from he rest of life on this planet we are part of an ecosystem, removing us from he equation is impossible.

vaalea

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

The grass-fed meat I buy direct from the farmer in Roscommon has way less of an environmental impact than the soybeans that travel hundreds of miles to make up a good proportion of most vegetarian diets. The cows are fed grass on land that is unsuitable for cultivating crops and finished with a small amount of oats grown non-intensively by the farmer, so less animals are killed in the process of making my steak than your piece of tofu. How's that for 'less harm'?

Also, I have no problem with saturated fat, it's good for you, coconut oil is really high in saturated fat too and most vegans have no problem eating it.

This defense of your personal situation is irrelevant when considering what is a sustainable diet for the world. Do you honestly think it is possible for every person on earth to obtain their meat this way? And how much meat is really your fair share to eat when considering all the people in the world and realistically how many animals can be raised in a sustainable manner.
No matter how the animal lives its life, it's still a bloody business. Yes, veg products eaten by veggies and onmis alike may be obtained in less sustainable/ethical manner, but it is entirely possible.
also http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0803/opinions-energy-locavores-on-my-mind.html

vaalea

ScumLord wrote: »

Report about American grass feeding. It doesn't apply in Ireland. That fact is Irish wildlife has adapted to farming as it's been widespread in Europe for so long. Arizona is a dry wasteland and can't be compared to Ireland at all.

We're no more advanced than any other animal on the planet, Humans are not something separate from he rest of life on this planet we are part of an ecosystem, removing us from he equation is impossible.

I'm not sure which side you are arguing with that.

El_Dangeroso

vaalea wrote: »

This defense of your personal situation is irrelevant when considering what is a sustainable diet for the world. Do you honestly think it is possible for every person on earth to obtain their meat this way? And how much meat is really your fair share to eat when considering all the people in the world and realistically how many animals can be raised in a sustainable manner.
No matter how the animal lives its life, it's still a bloody business. Yes, veg products eaten by veggies and onmis alike may be obtained in less sustainable/ethical manner, but it is entirely possible.
also http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0803/opinions-energy-locavores-on-my-mind.html

Tell me how me eating my sustainable, local beef has any effect on whether someone in the third world gets some food or not? There is no way you can grow enough food organically (as in without pertrochemically-derived fertilisers) to feed the world either, does that mean no one should eat organic food?

dr.bollocko

Changed the thread title because the misspelling was annoying.
Now time for some beef.

vaalea

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Tell me how me eating my sustainable, local beef has any effect on whether someone in the third world gets some food or not? There is no way you can grow enough food organically (as in without pertrochemically-derived fertilisers) to feed the world either, does that mean no one should eat organic food?

So you are not arguing that people are meant to/must eat meat at all, you are arguing that you deserve to eat meat since you get it from local grassfed operation.

Since you are making the claim on that organic food, you want to back it up? I would say, yes impossible when we are feeding vast quantities of food to livestock we slaughter and eat... but not impossible.

OctavarIan

While I'm not vegetarian my diet mostly is, because cheap meat just tastes bad or in the case of chicken it doesn't taste at all. You have to drown it in so much seasoning or sauce that you might as well be eating a vegetarian dish anyway.

Vegetarian dishes are easier, cheaper and more fun to make, not to mention more inventive and tasty.

Meat is great, but only so long as it's quality and not cheap supermarket/frozen stuff.

CokaColumbo

If you think that it is wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering or death upon a non-human animal, you should not consume any animal products. What is necessary about animal industry?

All animal agriculture, including eggs and dairy, no matter how humane it is, results in the deaths of animals. When the productivity of a cow or hen drops beyond a certain point, they are slaughtered and made into meat. Vegetarians are just as responsible for this as anybody by continuing to sustain these industries and their practices with demand and money.

The most notable health organisations have stated that a vegan diet is entirely conducive to an optimally healthy lifestyle, and animal agriculture is, worldwide, an environmental disaster.

In my opinion, vegetarians and meat-eaters are indistinguishable, especially considering the fact that the former often increases their reliance on non-meat animal products to get enough protein etc.

Absurdum

is this stupid sh1t still going on :rolleyes:

strobe

CokaColumbo wrote: »

If you think that it is wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering or death upon a non-human animal, you should not consume any animal products. What is necessary about animal industry?

All animal agriculture, including eggs and dairy, no matter how humane it is, results in the deaths of animals. When the productivity of a cow or hen drops beyond a certain point, they are slaughtered and made into meat. Vegetarians are just as responsible for this as anybody by continuing to sustain these industries and their practices with demand and money.

The most notable health organisations have stated that a vegan diet is entirely conducive to an optimally healthy lifestyle, and animal agriculture is, worldwide, an environmental disaster.

In my opinion, vegetarians and meat-eaters are indistinguishable, especially considering the fact that the former often increases their reliance on non-meat animal products to get enough protein etc.

Ideally you should probably just commit suicide. Even on a strict vegan diet the damage you are doing to the environment and therefore to wildlife over the course of your life is massive. Plus your body could be used as fertiliser once it begins to decompose. That's the ideal solution.

OctavarIan

strobe wrote: »

Plus your body could be used as fertiliser once it begins to decompose. That's the ideal solution.

You can safely compost your own poo though and that would give a greater lifetime yield :pac:

BickNarry

CokaColumbo wrote: »

All animal agriculture, including eggs and dairy, no matter how humane it is, results in the deaths of animals. When the productivity of a cow or hen drops beyond a certain point, they are slaughtered and made into meat. Vegetarians are just as responsible for this as anybody by continuing to sustain these industries and their practices with demand and money.


In my opinion, vegetarians and meat-eaters are indistinguishable.

Not all vegetarians shop at Tesco, and ALOT take serious consideration into where their food comes from. So its unfair to make your first claim when there is no evidence thatt all vegetarians buy casually and not ethically.

Also,we are living in the era of globalisation-a contemporary economic and social structure. Big business s not nowhere near ethical,and does not take in the interests of others. And the fact that they have done an amazingly efficient job at white washing industries and eliminating small competition means that there is less choice for us.

To admit defeat to this would be a tragedy.

Strive to survive causing least suffering possible beats consuming regardless.Hence, how to distinguish between the two.

strobe

OctavarIan wrote: »

You can safely compost your own poo though and that would give a greater lifetime yield :pac:

I tried that before. Now they won't let me back into the garden centre.

Rockn

seamus wrote: »

The food chain is a nonsense concept. Logically by not feeding yourself to a higher predator, like a tiger, you too are rejecting your place in the food chain.

I let my cat lick me. Does that count?

When will it become socially acceptable to eat humans?

darragh16

Rockn wrote: »

I let my cat lick me. Does that count?

Like that australian rugby player... except he had a dog

CokaColumbo

strobe wrote: »

Ideally you should probably just commit suicide. Even on a strict vegan diet the damage you are doing to the environment and therefore to wildlife over the course of your life is massive. Plus your body could be used as fertiliser once it begins to decompose. That's the ideal solution.

The impact on animals and wildlife is clearly less when one is a vegan. Also, there is a clear distinction between deliberately killing an animal and accidently doing them harm in the course of planting vegetables.

If you agree that it is wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering or death upon a non-human animal, you cannot, on a logical level, continue to engage in the deliberate consumption of animal products.

BickNarry wrote: »

Not all vegetarians shop at Tesco, and ALOT take serious consideration into where their food comes from. So its unfair to make your first claim when there is no evidence thatt all vegetarians buy casually and not ethically.

My point is that the ethical vegetarian argument for not consuming meat also applies to the consumption of eggs and dairy. Killing is inherent to the production of eggs and milk. It doesn't matter how 'free-range' it is.

itsallaboutheL

What?

Are you against killing the grass to make milk?

ScumLord

rarnes1 wrote: »

When will it become socially acceptable to eat humans?

When there's too many of us and we've eaten everything else.

Namlub

Guill wrote: »

Nobody has actually given a reason for why they became vegetarian yet?

Why should they have to justify themselves? I've never had a vegetarian ask me to give my reasons for eating meat...

El_Dangeroso

vaalea wrote: »

So you are not arguing that people are meant to/must eat meat at all, you are arguing that you deserve to eat meat since you get it from local grassfed operation.

Since you are making the claim on that organic food, you want to back it up? I would say, yes impossible when we are feeding vast quantities of food to livestock we slaughter and eat... but not impossible.

Did you think I was arguing that people must eat meat? Do you think I'm some kind of maniac who won't be happy until every vegetarian is mandated to eat a kebab?

I'm arguing that there is nothing at all wrong with eating meat, ethically, environmentally or otherwise as long as you are considerate about the source. I'm arguing that being vegetarian can mean you cause just as much suffering and environmental destruction as a meat eater.

On the organic front:

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/features/online/1601/why-organic-food-cant-feed-world

Plus, where do you think the manure to grow organic vegetables comes from?

CokaColumbo

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

What?

Are you against killing the grass to make milk?

Look at my first post.

vaalea

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Did you think I was arguing that people must eat meat? Do you think I'm some kind of maniac who won't be happy until every vegetarian is mandated to eat a kebab?

I'm arguing that there is nothing at all wrong with eating meat, ethically, environmentally or otherwise as long as you are considerate about the source. I'm arguing that being vegetarian can mean you cause just as much suffering and environmental destruction as a meat eater.

On the organic front:

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/features/online/1601/why-organic-food-cant-feed-world

Plus, where do you think the manure to grow organic vegetables comes from?

The second sentance of the article answers that, and the rest of the article states his reservations with it - but using the word "reservation" doesn't sound conclusive. He is also talking about an impoverished, overpopulated area. "Unfortunately, for Bangladesh, and many developing countries, those possibilities are diminishing yearly as organics become less and less available and affordable." I would question if our ever increasing meat consumption actually does play a part in this problem!

Livestock manure as fertilizer increases chance of e.coli. There are many different ways to improve land management - crop rotation for example helps. No till farming increases very beneficial worm population, worm castings makes excellent fertilizers etc etc.

What I'm saying is too much meat is eaten in the world. Even if you think YOUR source is sustainable, the quantity is not if considering world's fair share, and with too many people eating far too much, the best impact one can have is to reject it altogether as far too many others eat far too much. As for what is your "fair share": http://www.globaldashboard.org/2009/05/16/whats-your-fair-share-of-meat/ And that is just one side of the argument.

Nevermind that "the fare itself is truly monstrous and prodigious, — that a man should have a stomach to creatures while they yet bellow, and that he should be giving directions which of things yet alive and speaking is fittest to make food of, and ordering the several manners of the seasoning and dressing them and serving them up to tables. You ought rather, in my opinion, to have enquired who first began this practice, than who of late times left it off. You are indeed wont to call serpents, leopards, and lions savage creatures; but yet yourselves are defiled with blood, and come nothing behind them in cruelty. What they kill is their ordinary nourishment, but what you kill is your better fare. For we eat not lions and wolves by way of revenge; but we let those go, and catch the harmless and tame sort, and such as have neither stings nor teeth to bite with, and slay them; but for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh, we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy. And then we fancy that the voices it utters and screams forth to us are nothing else but certain inarticulate sounds and noises, and not the several deprecations, entreaties, and pleadings of each of them, - that it is not for nourishment, or want, or any necessity, but for mere gluttony, wantonness, and expensiveness, that they make a pleasure of villany. And what meal is not expensive? That for which no animal is put to death. Shall we reckon a soul to be a small expense. Let us therefore in the next place consider, whether we owe any justice to the brute beasts. Neither shall we handle this point artificially, or like subtle sophisters, but by casting our eye into our own breasts, and conversing with ourselves as men, we will weigh and examine the whole matter. . . ."
The remainder of the manuscript, if it was ever completed, is missing. - too bad as Plutarch was on a roll there (though that was bits and pieces written 2000 years ago and ever more applicable today as we've created worse ways to treat animals.

Let me just say, a la War of the Worlds harvesting would be ironic justice with the way we treat other species.

ScumLord

vaalea wrote: »

What I'm saying is too much meat is eaten in the world.

I'd sort of agree, but it's that we produce to much, fly it all over the world and turn it into muck. We probably don't end up eating the majority of it in the end.

vaalea

ScumLord wrote: »

I'd sort of agree, but it's that we produce to much, fly it all over the world and turn it into muck. We probably don't end up eating the majority of it in the end.

Fair share of meat: http://www.globaldashboard.org/2009/05/16/whats-your-fair-share-of-meat/
How much food do we throw away: http://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+food+do+we+throw+away

El_Dangeroso

vaalea wrote: »

The second sentance of the article answers that, and the rest of the article states his reservations with it - but using the word "reservation" doesn't sound conclusive. He is also talking about an impoverished, overpopulated area. "Unfortunately, for Bangladesh, and many developing countries, those possibilities are diminishing yearly as organics become less and less available and affordable." I would question if our ever increasing meat consumption actually does play a part in this problem!

Livestock manure as fertilizer increases chance of e.coli. There are many different ways to improve land management - crop rotation for example helps. No till farming increases very beneficial worm population, worm castings makes excellent fertilizers etc etc.

There are two ways to fertilise soil. Manure or petrochemicals. Your choice. Crop rotation nor worms cannot accomplish that and you're deeply naive if you think it can.

vaalea wrote: »

What I'm saying is too much meat is eaten in the world. Even if you think YOUR source is sustainable, the quantity is not if considering world's fair share, and with too many people eating far too much, the best impact one can have is to reject it altogether as far too many others eat far too much. As for what is your "fair share": http://www.globaldashboard.org/2009/05/16/whats-your-fair-share-of-meat/ And that is just one side of the argument.

You're conveniently leaving out the environmental damage done by soybeans and rice. Did you know that the biggest man-made emitter of methane in the world is rice paddy fields? Tell me, what's your 'fair-share' of soybeans and rice, and why do I know you've never asked yourself that question?:pac:

vaalea wrote: »

Nevermind that "the fare itself is truly monstrous and prodigious, — that a man should have a stomach to creatures while they yet bellow, and that he should be giving directions which of things yet alive and speaking is fittest to make food of, and ordering the several manners of the seasoning and dressing them and serving them up to tables. You ought rather, in my opinion, to have enquired who first began this practice, than who of late times left it off. You are indeed wont to call serpents, leopards, and lions savage creatures; but yet yourselves are defiled with blood, and come nothing behind them in cruelty. What they kill is their ordinary nourishment, but what you kill is your better fare. For we eat not lions and wolves by way of revenge; but we let those go, and catch the harmless and tame sort, and such as have neither stings nor teeth to bite with, and slay them; but for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh, we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy. And then we fancy that the voices it utters and screams forth to us are nothing else but certain inarticulate sounds and noises, and not the several deprecations, entreaties, and pleadings of each of them, - that it is not for nourishment, or want, or any necessity, but for mere gluttony, wantonness, and expensiveness, that they make a pleasure of villany. And what meal is not expensive? That for which no animal is put to death. Shall we reckon a soul to be a small expense. Let us therefore in the next place consider, whether we owe any justice to the brute beasts. Neither shall we handle this point artificially, or like subtle sophisters, but by casting our eye into our own breasts, and conversing with ourselves as men, we will weigh and examine the whole matter. . . ."
The remainder of the manuscript, if it was ever completed, is missing. - too bad as Plutarch was on a roll there (though that was bits and pieces written 2000 years ago and ever more applicable today as we've created worse ways to treat animals.

Let me just say, a la War of the Worlds harvesting would be ironic justice with the way we treat other species.

What is this I don't even..

That quote reminds me of this guy:

I am therefore inclined to embrace the heretical conclusion that we have reason to desire the extinction of all carnivorous species.

:pac:

i57dwun4yb1pt8

nervous_twitch wrote: »

?! anybody who wastes any time on the internet, talking with other anonymous people about certain topics is a sad, friendless individual.

good to see you agree with me

FoxT

Oops, thought this thread was about virgins...sorry!

I'll let ye at it:)

eddie the eagle

rarnes1 wrote: »

When will it become socially acceptable to eat humans?

When the cows come home.

http://mrbongo1.homestead.com/files/alien_cow_2.jpg

strobe

Namlub wrote: »

Why should they have to justify themselves? I've never had a vegetarian ask me to give my reasons for eating meat...

Lucky you. I have. Many many times.......Did you not read the thread or something? It is almost exclusively made up of vegetarians asking people to justify why they eat meat.

eddie the eagle

strobe wrote: »

Lucky you. I have. Many many times.......Did you not read the thread or something? It is almost exclusively made up of vegetarians asking people to justify why they eat meat.

nah, in my experience in real life it is typically a table of people with say one vegetarian being asked why they choose not to eat the meat. thats how the the discussion starts the majority of times. the meat eaters bring it up. very rarely have i seen the opposite occur.

Namlub

strobe wrote: »

Lucky you. I have. Many many times.......Did you not read the thread or something? It is almost exclusively made up of vegetarians asking people to justify why they eat meat.

I was was talking about outside of this thread. In non-internet conversations with people IRL? You might be familiar with the concept...

FTGFOP

rarnes1 wrote: »

When will it become socially acceptable to eat humans?

Tuesday. I have it on good authority.

vaalea

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

There are two ways to fertilise soil. Manure or petrochemicals. Your choice. Crop rotation nor worms cannot accomplish that and you're deeply naive if you think it can.



You're conveniently leaving out the environmental damage done by soybeans and rice. Did you know that the biggest man-made emitter of methane in the world is rice paddy fields? Tell me, what's your 'fair-share' of soybeans and rice, and why do I know you've never asked yourself that question?:pac:



What is this I don't even..

That quote reminds me of this guy:


:pac:

I said worm manure, otherwise you are wrong.
you don't know because I am aware there are issues with other crops (but still nothing like animal product production). I don't eat that much rice however http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090818/full/news.2009.833.html and http://www.loleegreen.com/2009/04/food-for-thought-carbon-footprint-of-rice/, and I know that Soybeans can produce at least twice as much protein per acre as any other major vegetable or grain crop, 5 to 10 times more protein per acre than land set aside for grazing animals to make milk, and up to 15 times more protein per acre than land set aside for meat production. the "toasted" defatted soymeal (50% protein) then makes possible the raising of farm animals (e.g. chicken, hog, turkey) on an industrial scale never before seen in human history. A very small proportion of the crop is consumed directly by humans.


...obviously missing the point.

El_Dangeroso

Worm manure still can't produce the yield of cow manure now can it? Show me a large scale farm operation that uses it.

Nope not missing the point, I believe no animal should be fed soybeans as their staple food, it makes them fat and sick (same way it makes humans fat and sick). I favour eating grass-fed free-range animals, but you don't seem to have an answer to that, so you drag it back to factory farming, which I to which I have already voiced my opposition. A biodynamic omnivorous diet is FAR more environmentally friendly than the food-mile-laden processed food diets I see most vegetarians subsist on.

You seem to miss the point that soybeans kill more sentient beings than grass-fed cattle farming though. Unless your speciesist and don't think that insect lives matter as much as cows and sheep?

You make the rookie mistake of assuming all land that can be used for rearing animals can be used for crop cultivation. I beg of you to read something besides vegan propaganda.

But money where your mouth is time, give me a daily diet that is:

a) Vegan
b) Replete with all necessary nutrients without supplementation.
c) Completely available without importing any food outside of Ireland (and in season this time of year)

and then I'll believe a vegan diet is sustainable.

fonecrusher1

Veganism is a fashion statement. Essentially its a load of bollox that enables 'vegans' to bleat on & on about how badly farm animals are treated when all the time their craving a big oul burger. Lifes too short. Just eat your dinner.

Namlub

It should probably be pointed out that some people are vegetarians simply because they don't actually like meat, not because of some environmental or social agenda. Wouldn't want people getting carried away with ill-informed stereotypes, like...

eddie the eagle

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Veganism is a fashion statement. Essentially its a load of bollox that enables 'vegans' to bleat on & on about how badly farm animals are treated when all the time their craving a big oul burger. Lifes too short. Just eat your dinner.

maybe for some. do you also feel people being a vegetarian is a fashion statement? also maybe for some.
craving for meat doesn't last forever. for me it was about 2 years. 18 years later i never crave the stuff.

fonecrusher1

eddie the eagle wrote: »

maybe for some. do you also feel people being a vegetarian is a fashion statement? also maybe for some.
craving for meat doesn't last forever. for me it was about 2 years. 18 years later i never crave the stuff.

Are you vegetarian or vegan?

eddie the eagle

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Are you vegetarian or vegan?

im vegetarian. i eat cheese and yoghurt

fonecrusher1

eddie the eagle wrote: »

im vegetarian. i eat cheese and yoghurt

My post specifically mentioned vegans.

eddie the eagle

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

My post specifically mentioned vegans.

yeah i get that. was just wondering if you felt the same about vegetarians

fonecrusher1

eddie the eagle wrote: »

yeah i get that. was just wondering if you felt the same about vegetarians

Depends. If someone says hey im a vegetarian & i say how long? And they say...a few months, then i do this - :rolleyes:. If they say well ive been a vegetarian for many years like yourself, i think fair enough, he/she really is a vegetarian.

Being a vegan is probably much much more difficult than being a vegetarian. Is there any point in being a vegetarian? I mean you wearing animal hide clothes, drinking dairy products & using products with animal fats makes you just as much a contributor as a meat eater. I don't see he point. Not unless you simply don't like the taste of animal flesh? If so fair enough but when i see a vegetarian going on like they're trying to save the world i find it....silly.

strobe

Namlub wrote: »

I was was talking about outside of this thread. In non-internet conversations with people IRL? You might be familiar with the concept...

No........no, not really familiar with that deal. How do I get to this IRL you speak of? If it involves clicking my ruby slippers together I'd rather not bother. They are scuffed up enough as it is.

eddie the eagle

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Depends. If someone says hey im a vegetarian & i say how long? And they say...a few months, then i do this - :rolleyes:. If they say well ive been a vegetarian for many years like yourself, i think fair enough, he/she really is a vegetarian.

Being a vegan is probably much much more difficult than being a vegetarian. Is there any point in being a vegetarian? I mean you wearing animal hide clothes, drinking dairy products & using products with animal fats makes you just as much a contributor as a meat eater. I don't see he point. Not unless you simply don't like the taste of animal flesh? If so fair enough but when i see a vegetarian going on like they're trying to save the world i find it....silly.

well yeah for myself i couldn't imagine myself as vegan, take for instance today, i hadn't eaten any cheese for a few days and today i knew my body was looking for some. now if that would go away the same my meat cravings did after a couple of years, i don't know. i doubt it though. judging the way i feel when i haven't had any (it feels different from my old meat cravings). i guess it might be down to the whole b12 thing.

growing up i wasn't really a big meat eater. mostly just rashers and sausages and burgers. so the transition wasn't too big for me. over the years i have considered eating meat again but at this stage i dont see why i should or what the benifts would be for me. i'm fairly healhy, by no means under weight.

in regards to eating cheese coming from cows, i could have a cow in my garden and get the milk and cheese from her and give her a pat on the back and an apple afterwards. im not running my body on the meat from her, which from what i know sounds like a pretty bad last few hours of life.
i can live without ingesting that suffering fine.