Vegetarians, Vegans...

El_Dangeroso

Pookah wrote: »

It may have already been touched upon in the thread, none of which I've read, but if you're growing grain to feed cows, to make beef to feed people, you would need 20 times more land, iirc, than if you were growing grain to feed vegetarians.

If you really want to cause less harm, in terms of damage to the environment, atmosphere etc and if you wish to generate more food for the worlds poor, become a veggie.

RussellTuring wrote: »

In its lifetime, that cow will consume much more than 568 lbs of grain, and a lot more water than it would have taken to grow that amount of grain. We feed animals food that could be eaten by people, only to kill them and waste so much energy, protein, fibre and other nutrients. Also, animals raised for food contribute more to global warming than all forms of transport combined.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.HTM

Not if you eat meat that eats waste food like pork or grass-fed beef. That's what gets me. The only argument for vegetarianism is to stop factory farming. But you can do that without becoming vegetarian.

My point stands, I probably kill less animals than a grain-eating vegetarian.

bluecatmorgana

Duggy747 wrote: »

Not really preachy, more so: "You don't like meat!?! Heh, you've no idea what you're missing out on"..........*chomps on succulent leg of lamb* :P

I've never met preachy vegetarians either and one of my sisters is one, but I've met plenty of "I'm a vegan, aren't I great??" types of fools.

As for Quorn, it's alright, I guess. But to convince me to use it as a subsitute for meat in a dinner is like telling a lesbian not to use a penis-shaped dildo :pac:

She could always use a fist-shaped dildo

raah!

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

That's fine, I ask the question of vegetarians who do regard themselves as morally superior for not eating animals. I'm saying it's largely a fallacy.

Are you saying that the same number of animals (on the higher level of the sentiency scale, or otherwise, it doesn't matter, it's not like anyone has counted the number of things killed inadvertantly in both cases) are killed in the production of vegetables as there are in the production of meat?

In terms of which death is better than another sentiency obviously comes into it, but there is also just the matter of realism. Which people have showed you. Yes it is unavoidable to kill certain things, but to kill other things it is avoidable. So it is avoided.

Everyone is morally superior in the frame of reference of their own moral system to those who do not espouse that same moral system.

If, however, you are of the opinion that killing things needlessly is bad, then yes, vegetarians are morally superior to you.

eddie the eagle

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

If anything, being vegan implies a severe detachment from the way that nature actually works.

I disagree with this point. a lot of us at some time have planted food which we then went on to eat. i have never killed or even witnessed in person the killing of a cow for food, though at this stage i must have eaten a small herd of them.

a novel idea. how about a reattachment of meat eaters to the way nature works. instead of spending our lives eating nicely cut meats which just arrive on our plates without a thought for how it got there. how about a programme, in say transition year, where the kids get to go to a farm/slaughter house/chicken factory and have the oportunity to kill the animals from where they get their variety of meats. kind of like a giving of thanks to the animals which will keep them fed and healthy during their lives.

probably not an econmically sound idea, but it would certainly go a long way to restoring a respect for the animals who we consume to live, and a better insight into how food arrives to our plates.

ScumLord

Pookah wrote: »

It may have already been touched upon in the thread, none of which I've read, but if you're growing grain to feed cows, to make beef to feed people, you would need 20 times more land, iirc, than if you were growing grain to feed vegetarians.

If you really want to cause less harm, in terms of damage to the environment, atmosphere etc and if you wish to generate more food for the worlds poor, become a veggie.

Cows eat grass, berries and everything else that grows out of the ground around here so there's no worry on that front the food they eat here in Ireland is growing all over the place.

Bookworm85

I have just picked up on this thread and wanted to get to the issue of vitamin b12.

I am b12 deficient and could possibly have pernicious anaemia. I need regular injections of vit b12 just to keep me normal.

B12 is an essential part of a diet and can only be gotten from meat or animal products (eggs, cheese, milk etc). It is needed for healthy nerve tissue & blood cells and everybody should suppliment their diet. The effects of b12 deficiency are frightening.

When I am low, I am constantly tired to the extent that I need at least 10 hours sleep a night and a nap for an hour or two during the day. Something as simple as climbing the stairs would have me exhasted. I had a constant headache which would leave me nauseous and dizzy. I am also showing signs of nerve damage in my extremities (pain and aches in my hands/fingers/feet/toes) and I am constantly cold (I do not feel cold, but I feel extremely cold to others when they touch me). My concentration levels and memory have gone to the dogs and I am also chronically anaemic as a result of b12 deficiency.

B12 deficiency might not manifest for years as your liver can store some in reserve. By the time you start showing symptoms your body is already in trouble.

So for all you vegans/veggies out there - get your levels checked regularly and ensure you take Vit B complex and Folic Acid every day (Folic Acid is necessary for your body to utilise b12).

More info here, here and here.

Ruthy

Susie_Q

I am truly baffled by meat-eaters having a go at vegetarians on here.

I was vegetarian for a few years and I cannot recount the number of times a meat-eater would not only challenge me but outright give out to me for not eating meat. As if I had committed a criminal offence!

I now eat meat but not very often. Truth be told I love vegetables and I love cooking, which means I can make vegetables into an infinite number of different dishes and delights every evening. I probably eat meat once or twice a week and as a result of this I still have people questioning my motives... typical questions thus:

Q: Why don't you eat steak?
A: Because I kind of think a big hunk of beef is boring and gross.

Q: Why do you love vegetables?
A: Because they come in a huge variety, they nourish your body, they are easy to cook and cheap to buy.

Q: But don't you miss meat on the days you eat veggie?
A: No, because I cook hearty meals that keep you full, such as chickpea and spinach curry or three bean chilli with rice.

In my lifetime (which is close on 30 years), I've only come across 2 preachy vegetarians. I was veggie for a few years and at least 20 people (maybe more) openly challenged me on my eating choices. Why?? Surely what I put in my body is my own choice and has no bearing on anyone else?

ordinary_girl

I've been vegetarian for about 5 years now, I remember thinking that it'd be impossible for me to not eat meat (obviously I was thinking this before I chose to go vegetarian!) because I loved chicken, I ate it everday. I turned vegetarian for a variety of reasons, and I got cravings for the first few weeks so had Quorn as a substitute, I don't eat it anymore because I'm used to not having meat or anything substituting meat in my diet.

I can't stand preachy vegetarians, in the same way I can't stand meat eaters who try to stop me from being vegetarian, or who try to catch me out, such as "do you eat fish?" "no." "what about eggs?" "yes" and then they go off on a tangent about it.

I'm not a preachy vegetarian, quite frankly I couldn't care less if someone ate meat as long as I don't have to eat it but on an annoyingly frequent basis I'm faced with *some* meat eaters who seem to take offence to the fact that I don't eat meat and then try to argue about it with me.

sensibleken

ScumLord wrote: »

Up to a point, I'm very much against blind individualism too.

youre determined not to let it end on a positive note aren't you.

sensibleken

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

What I don't get about vegetarianism is that you'll never hear about a vegetarian restricting the amount of furniture they buy, despite the fact that every tree cut down to make furniture involves the death of small animals. Most people have more furniture than they need but for some reason no-one gets up in arms about furniture.

A

i love this.

of course you don't. who the hell wants to hear about peoples furniture?

mickrock

Vegetarians suffer from brain shrinkage:

......................................................

But, getting back to brain size, the decline which started with the advent of agriculture and our greater reliance on foods of plant origin has now seen a dramatically greater decline in those who have adopted a 'healthy', vegetarian diet.

Scientists at the Department of Physiology, Anatomy and Genetics, University of Oxford, recently discovered that changing to a vegetarian diet could be bad for our brains — with those on a meat-free diet six times more likely to suffer brain shrinkage.[18]

Using tests and brain scans on community-dwelling volunteers aged 61 to 87 years without cognitive impairment at enrolment, they measured the size of the participants' brains. When the volunteers were retested five years later the scientists found those with the lowest levels of vitamin B12 intake were the most likely to have brain shrinkage. Not surprisingly, vegans who eschew all foods of animal origin, suffered the most brain shrinkage. This confirms earlier research showing a link between brain atrophy and low levels of B12.

FTGFOP

Guill wrote: »

As a meat loving man i cannot come to grips with the idea of rejecting meat for ever!

Beer and peanuts. Your argument is invalid.

Dudess

If vegetarians/vegans do their thing without lecturing others I don't get why someone would give them abuse.

I'm not vegetarian but I've started to prefer vegetarian meals in recent years - don't know why, just becoming a preference.

messymess

Guill wrote: »

So a question for the veggies/Vegans;

You reject your natural place in the food chain.
Why?

(feel free to rant and rave, i think veggies are mad already!)

Because comparatively, we have a fairly developed brains/consciousness. In turn, we have things like emotions, compassion, ethics, morals. These are things that distinguish us greatly from other animals and puts us on another playing field. I choose not to eat meat because the idea of an animal suffering needlessly disturbs me. The idea of an animal bread, needlessly, to be destroyed in a slaughter house disgusts me.

We live in a society that affords us the ability to live very happily and healthily without meat, so I choose not to eat it. Although I crave it, a lot.

I might as well say it whilst I'm ranting but one of the worst things about being vegetarian is actually being associated with them. OP you're right, I think they're mad too but just in general!

Oh by the way, enjoy ass cancer

Dudess

messymess wrote: »

animal bread

Mmmm... Tesco Tiger Bread...

moonflower

I really don't care if someone eats meat or doesn't. I tried going veggie once but it wasn't for me, I don't mind going a few days without meat though and I do enjoy vegetarian meals.

What bothers me though is the people who say "I'm a vegetarian. I still eat fish though", or worse- "I'm veggie but I eat chicken". I once had a girl insist that she was a vegetarian 5 minutes after I watched her tuck into a chicken roll. Her defence was that chickens aren't 'real animals' and therefore don't count.

Agonist

I just wanted to pop this in here. I've never seen a quote so often wrongly attributed.

"If God did not intend for us to eat animals, then why did he make them out of meat?"
John Cleese


All of us know that being mistreated and killed is scary and it hurts. Meat eaters go red in the face trying to bluster and posture their way out of that when they meet a veggie. Vegetarians just get on with it.

Irish Guitarist

One of the most nonsensical words ever is 'flexitarian'. It describes people that are vegetarian, except for when they eat meat.

http://vegetarian.about.com/od/glossary/f/flexitarian.htm

jackiebaron

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

That's becasue meat is food... and rice beans and onions are stuff that goes with food to make the plate look pretty.

Then why do you eat them if they are "ornaments"? In fact why do you even put them on your plate? In fact if there was no plate to put anything on per se then would vegetables be obsolete? Meat is food, you say. I agree. But if everything else is just "window dressing" then tell me/us ... why don't you just eat meat and nothing else for breakfast, lunch, dinner and supper?

Praytell.

jackiebaron

ScumLord wrote: »

You come from a country that's educated and (up until recently) well funded, the environment you grew up in allowed you to make the choice, in many other countries your lucky to eat, there's no choice about it you eat what's available and be happy you got it. That's what I meant by an educated and well funded choice.

Again I'll mention the hundreds of millions of Sikhs, Jains, Hindus, and Buddhists who live on less in a month than you earn in a decade. Throw them a bacon butty they still won't eat it.

Why do meat-eaters insist on fcuking with vegetarians. I don't believe in any kind of supreme existence....hence one would call me an atheist but I don't insist on browbeating the religionists or the biblists.

jackiebaron

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Maybe I used an incorrect choice of words, but really, you're just nit-picking rather than responding to my points.

When, who and where did vegetarians consider themselves to be "morally superior" to meat-eaters? This I really need to hear.

jackiebaron

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Not if you eat meat that eats waste food like pork or grass-fed beef. That's what gets me. The only argument for vegetarianism is to stop factory farming. But you can do that without becoming vegetarian.

My point stands, I probably kill less animals than a grain-eating vegetarian.

Again, and again and again.....how would you reconcile this statement in India?

jackiebaron

Bookworm85 wrote: »

I have just picked up on this thread and wanted to get to the issue of vitamin b12.

I am b12 deficient and could possibly have pernicious anaemia. I need regular injections of vit b12 just to keep me normal.

B12 is an essential part of a diet and can only be gotten from meat or animal products (eggs, cheese, milk etc). It is needed for healthy nerve tissue & blood cells and everybody should suppliment their diet. The effects of b12 deficiency are frightening.

When I am low, I am constantly tired to the extent that I need at least 10 hours sleep a night and a nap for an hour or two during the day. Something as simple as climbing the stairs would have me exhasted. I had a constant headache which would leave me nauseous and dizzy. I am also showing signs of nerve damage in my extremities (pain and aches in my hands/fingers/feet/toes) and I am constantly cold (I do not feel cold, but I feel extremely cold to others when they touch me). My concentration levels and memory have gone to the dogs and I am also chronically anaemic as a result of b12 deficiency.

B12 deficiency might not manifest for years as your liver can store some in reserve. By the time you start showing symptoms your body is already in trouble.

So for all you vegans/veggies out there - get your levels checked regularly and ensure you take Vit B complex and Folic Acid every day (Folic Acid is necessary for your body to utilise b12).

More info here, here and here.

Ruthy

Ask for your money back regarding those B12 supplements, you cretin. They're obviously not helping you. This thread, or the crux thereof, is about vegetanarism, not veganism. Lose the B12 angle, ok! In fact go back to the very start....you'll see a question from someone asking why vegetarians "reject their place on the food chain". And in response the vegetarian community along with their meat-eating friends (ME) simply state that meat is not necessary.
Not a single veggie lectures a carnivore. Not one. Yet the carnivores can't live and let live. They yammer about protein and animals ethics and teeth and a bunch of other sh!t and when it's all said to be bullcrap...what do they do? They bring up vitamin fcuking B12...just like you.
Eating meat is not necessary. Got that, B12-boy? But eat it all you want. I will.

eddie the eagle

And of course there are those that will tell you, there will always be war amoungst humans until we make peace with our animal friends :pac:

blorg

The idea that a vegetarian diet is somehow expensive is ludicrous. It is far cheaper than a meat-eating diet. Meat is much more expensive. Meat also consumes far more in the way of natural resources to produce (hint: that is why it is expensive.)

Vegetarians in India may be poor but generally choose their diet for religious reasons. But the diet of a poor subsistence farmer without religious/ethical objections will generally subsist of vegetables, perhaps with a cow, sheep or goats for milk and a few chickens for eggs. Meat is eaten only infrequently, maybe once a week or less, on a special occasion. This is purely for financial reasons.

I'm not a vegetarian but to suggest that vegetarianism is a luxury that can only be afforded in rich Western societies is ignorant and offensive.

El_Dangeroso

eddie the eagle wrote: »

a novel idea. how about a reattachment of meat eaters to the way nature works. instead of spending our lives eating nicely cut meats which just arrive on our plates without a thought for how it got there. how about a programme, in say transition year, where the kids get to go to a farm/slaughter house/chicken factory and have the oportunity to kill the animals from where they get their variety of meats. kind of like a giving of thanks to the animals which will keep them fed and healthy during their lives.

I think this is a brilliant idea. If you can't stomach the reality of meat, then no, you shouldn't eat it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at vegetarians. I probably have more in common with a vegetarian than the average joe, I care about where my food comes from and think that factory farming should be stopped.

I just don't like the arguments that for veggies to be justified in doing their thing, meat eating must somehow be intrinsically wrong, and it's not.

ScumLord

jackiebaron wrote: »

Again I'll mention the hundreds of millions of Sikhs, Jains, Hindus, and Buddhists who live on less in a month than you earn in a decade. Throw them a bacon butty they still won't eat it.

If you google those religions being vegetarian is not always a requirement. Only the most devote heavily restrict themselves.

jackiebaron wrote: »

Again, and again and again.....how would you reconcile this statement in India?

I don't understand what you mean by that. Are you saying India doesn't have intensive farms despite their population?

blorg

According to Wikipedia less than 30% of Indians regularly consume meat with 20-42% being entirely vegetarian. That is a large percentage; more so than the "most devout." Those who don't eat meat at all generally do it for religious reasons; those who don't often eat meat often do so for economic reasons (because it is too expensive.)

You argue that vegetarianism is a luxury that can only be afforded in a rich country which is rubbish. You only have to look at the price of food in the shops to see that meat is more expensive FFS. Many poor people eat primarily vegetarian diets out of economic necessity... a bit of meat is a real treat for them. They are not vegetarians, but their diet basically is.

nervous_twitch

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I just don't like the arguments that for veggies to be justified in doing their thing, meat eating must somehow be intrinsically wrong, and it's not.

..in your opinion. Thats like saying abortion isnt intrinsically wrong; its a moral grey area that cant be resolved and ultimately comes down to your own personal belief system.

BickNarry

This is an absolutely absurd thread.

Byproduct of eating meat?Dead animals.
Byproduct of being a vegetarian?Less dead animals.

So,even if we're wrong,and God intended us to eat meat,the food chain etc., well our impact has not been more harmful than otherwise.

Being wholly animal independent is very difficult. We are conditioned to eat meat, and big business is not animal friendly. To escape it in every way is near impossible,but worthwhile.

But to conclude that someone's efforts are void because they do not fully fulfill the premise is ridiculous.Like saying a fireman's efforts to save a family are not admirable because he didn't save them all.

At the end of the day,to put it crudely, the animals we eat end up as excrement.

And to me,that's a horrible waste of life. I don't find that a hard concept to grasp.