Vegetarians, Vegans...

veryangryman

Guill wrote: »

I have even started raising my own meat .

Ha!

vaalea

really you guys here in Ireland do not have good vegan meat options. I'm really missing the Lick's nature burger, nelakee vegan meats (even had shrimp), gardein chicken... etc. Back home I could tell people that the stuff tastes great, and it's easy to be vegan. Here, it is hard to be vegan. :mad:

Our KFC has a fake chicken burger. Our Burger King has a meaty veggie burger. SOO many restaurants carry a meaty veggie burger option... not these veggie-bean patties that are the only thing I can find served here.

Also, where is the green-pickle relish? :P

oh.. actually for the most part the dairy alternatives here are GREAT!! and with the quorn products it is quite easy to be vegetarian.

Besides it really is healthier to eat more whole foods anyway I suppose... good excuse to experiment in the kitchen more with different flavours/cuisines and ingredients like quinoa. http://www.thehappypear.ie/education/

El_Dangeroso

nervous_twitch wrote: »

..in your opinion. Thats like saying abortion isnt intrinsically wrong; its a moral grey area that cant be resolved and ultimately comes down to your own personal belief system.

True, but if your intention by avoiding meat is to fulfill the belief that killing another sentient being is wrong, you must also confront the fact that every piece of bread that you have or inessential piece of furniture you buy is causing as much harm to animals as a piece of steak.

El_Dangeroso

BickNarry wrote: »

Byproduct of eating meat?Dead animals.
Byproduct of being a vegetarian?Less dead animals.

Not necessarily, a pound of grain requires the death of more animals than a pound of steak.

vaalea

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Not necessarily, a pound of grain requires the death of more animals than a pound of steak.

Wow. What kind of math are you on when it takes 5-16 pounds of grain fed to animals to produce 1 pound of meat slaughtering them.

vaalea

As for grass fed

But I wouldn’t get too carried away and think that as long as it’s grassfed then it’s fine and dandy. Grassfed products are still high in saturated fat (though not as high), still high in cholesterol, and are still devoid of fiber and many other essential nutrients. They take less toll on the environment, but the land on which the animals graze still must often be irrigated, thus using up dwindling water resources, and it may be fertilized with petroleum-based fertilizers.
And there are other environmental costs. Next to carbon dioxide, the most destabilizing gas to the planet’s climate is methane. Methane is actually 24 times more potent a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, and its concentration in the atmosphere is rising even faster. The primary reason that concentrations of atmospheric methane are now triple what they were when they began rising a century ago is beef production. Cattle raised on pasture actually produce more methane than feedlot animals, on a per-cow basis.
Plus there is the tremendous toll grazing cattle takes on the land itself. Even with U.S. beef cattle today spending the last half of their lives in feedlots, seventy percent of the land area of the American West is currently used for grazing livestock. More than two-thirds of the entire land area of Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, and Idaho is used for rangeland. Just about the only land that isn’t grazed is in places that for one reason or another can’t be used by livestock—inaccessible areas, dense forests and brushlands, the driest deserts, sand dunes, extremely rocky areas, cliffs and mountaintops, cities and towns, roads and parking lots, airports, and golf courses. In the American West, virtually every place that can be grazed, is grazed. The results aren’t pretty. As one environmental author put it, “Cattle grazing in the West has polluted more water, eroded more topsoil, killed more fish, displaced more wildlife, and destroyed more vegetation than any other land use.”
Western rangelands have been devastated under the impact of the current system, in which cattle typically spend only six months or so on the range, and the rest of their lives in feedlots. To bring cows to market weight on rangeland alone would require each animal to spend not six months foraging, but several years, greatly multiplying the damage to western ecosystems. - John Robbins

Native species are threatened by grazing livestock. http://rangenet.org/directory/witzemanr/tool/

Bookworm85

jackiebaron wrote: »

Ask for your money back regarding those B12 supplements, you cretin. They're obviously not helping you. This thread, or the crux thereof, is about vegetanarism, not veganism. Lose the B12 angle, ok! In fact go back to the very start....you'll see a question from someone asking why vegetarians "reject their place on the food chain". And in response the vegetarian community along with their meat-eating friends (ME) simply state that meat is not necessary.
Not a single veggie lectures a carnivore. Not one. Yet the carnivores can't live and let live. They yammer about protein and animals ethics and teeth and a bunch of other sh!t and when it's all said to be bullcrap...what do they do? They bring up vitamin fcuking B12...just like you.
Eating meat is not necessary. Got that, B12-boy? But eat it all you want. I will.

What need was there to call me a Cretin?? read my post again Jackie, I dont take suppliments - I need intramuscular inections of b12 to keep me alive. My body pysically wont absorb b12 from my diet. If I didn't get these injections I'd be dead within 10 years. B12 is VITAL for your body to function.

Fair enough my post was OT and I have absolutely no problem with people not eating meat or their products, whatever their reasons might be., so long as they are aware that there are *some* vitamins/minerals/whatever that are lacking in their diet.

Nowhere in my post did I tell you or anybody else to eat meat. I simply posted my experiences of B12 deficiency, hoping to inform others of the effects it can cause. I simply advised veggies and vegans (no doubt they will be drawn to this thread) to have their b12 levels checked and to take suppliments. B12 deficiency is not a myth, it does occur and vegitarians and vegans are those that are most effected.

And as for veggies not lecuring meat eaters, I've had plenty call me a 'neanderthal' or tell me that they are offended my my diet, and have had plenty trying to convert me and talk down to me.

Again, I do not have any issue with people excluding meat (or meat products) from their diet, so long as they make an educated decision about it and are aware of any adverse effects it might have on their health.

Oh and I'm a girl

Sauve

I've been a vegetarian for about ten years now. Since I was old enough to decide what to have for dinner all by myself really......

For me, (and I say for me, because I would never foist this opinion on anybody else) it's to do with not eating a dead carcass.
I've thought like this since I was a kid, and just can't understand why I, as an 'intelligent, advanced life-form', would want to put a dead, decaying animal into my mouth. It just seems so gross! I think it's pointless, there is plenty of food out there that can satisfy my nutritional needs.
When I see meat being sold/cooked/eaten, my brain registers that as 'dead animal'. Not exactly an appealing thought.
But each to their own.....

nervous_twitch

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

True, but if your intention by avoiding meat is to fulfill the belief that killing another sentient being is wrong, you must also confront the fact that every piece of bread that you have or inessential piece of furniture you buy is causing as much harm to animals as a piece of steak.

I understand what you're saying, but I think its misguided; as mentioned by someone above, should a fireman not bother saving anybody if he cant save them all? Unfortunately, we live in a world where its virtually impossible to live independently of animals - of course it would be ideal if my bread/furniture weren't doing any harm, but that is just out of my hands and where it is possible for me to do my best by our four-legged friends (:D) I do.

Out of interest, why do you bother buying free range/organic (asides from taste obviously)? Why bother giving animals any kind of cruelty-free existence? I assume its because you have some compassion, and it just so happens we draw the line at different points.

vaalea

I like how meateaters use the biological evolution argument: I'm a beast and predator! (you would think we evolved from lions the way they talk)
whereas
the vegs use the the argument: I am an intellectual being with a higher-evolved consciousness.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

anyone who wastes their lives / time / saturdays worrying or commenting about what other people eat is a 100% moron-a-tarian

particularly on the internet , its so sad .

vaalea

also re: B12... do you know where it comes from? The cows get it from the ground, and some vegans choose not to wash their veggies in order to get their B12 naturally. http://healthmad.com/nutrition/why-vegans-shouldnt-wash-their-vegetables/
I'm happy with fortified foods, supplements or nutritional yeast but it can't be claimed that it's unnatural to be vegan because B12 isn't in the diet.

nervous_twitch

DaDumTish wrote: »

anyone who wastes their lives / time / saturdays worrying or commenting about what other people eat is a 100% moron-a-tarian

particularly on the internet , its so sad .

?! anybody who wastes any time on the internet, talking with other anonymous people about certain topics is a sad, friendless individual.

smellslikeshoes

Oh I didn't know it was time for our twice monthly veggie bashing thread :rolleyes:

El_Dangeroso

vaalea wrote: »

As for grass fed




Native species are threatened by grazing livestock. http://rangenet.org/directory/witzemanr/tool/

The grass-fed meat I buy direct from the farmer in Roscommon has way less of an environmental impact than the soybeans that travel hundreds of miles to make up a good proportion of most vegetarian diets. The cows are fed grass on land that is unsuitable for cultivating crops and finished with a small amount of oats grown non-intensively by the farmer, so less animals are killed in the process of making my steak than your piece of tofu. How's that for 'less harm'?

Also, I have no problem with saturated fat, it's good for you, coconut oil is really high in saturated fat too and most vegans have no problem eating it.

ScumLord

vaalea wrote: »

As for grass fed




Native species are threatened by grazing livestock. http://rangenet.org/directory/witzemanr/tool/

Report about American grass feeding. It doesn't apply in Ireland. That fact is Irish wildlife has adapted to farming as it's been widespread in Europe for so long. Arizona is a dry wasteland and can't be compared to Ireland at all.

Sauvignon82 wrote: »

I've thought like this since I was a kid, and just can't understand why I, as an 'intelligent, advanced life-form',

We're no more advanced than any other animal on the planet, Humans are not something separate from he rest of life on this planet we are part of an ecosystem, removing us from he equation is impossible.

vaalea

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

The grass-fed meat I buy direct from the farmer in Roscommon has way less of an environmental impact than the soybeans that travel hundreds of miles to make up a good proportion of most vegetarian diets. The cows are fed grass on land that is unsuitable for cultivating crops and finished with a small amount of oats grown non-intensively by the farmer, so less animals are killed in the process of making my steak than your piece of tofu. How's that for 'less harm'?

Also, I have no problem with saturated fat, it's good for you, coconut oil is really high in saturated fat too and most vegans have no problem eating it.

This defense of your personal situation is irrelevant when considering what is a sustainable diet for the world. Do you honestly think it is possible for every person on earth to obtain their meat this way? And how much meat is really your fair share to eat when considering all the people in the world and realistically how many animals can be raised in a sustainable manner.
No matter how the animal lives its life, it's still a bloody business. Yes, veg products eaten by veggies and onmis alike may be obtained in less sustainable/ethical manner, but it is entirely possible.
also http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0803/opinions-energy-locavores-on-my-mind.html

vaalea

ScumLord wrote: »

Report about American grass feeding. It doesn't apply in Ireland. That fact is Irish wildlife has adapted to farming as it's been widespread in Europe for so long. Arizona is a dry wasteland and can't be compared to Ireland at all.

We're no more advanced than any other animal on the planet, Humans are not something separate from he rest of life on this planet we are part of an ecosystem, removing us from he equation is impossible.

I'm not sure which side you are arguing with that.

El_Dangeroso

vaalea wrote: »

This defense of your personal situation is irrelevant when considering what is a sustainable diet for the world. Do you honestly think it is possible for every person on earth to obtain their meat this way? And how much meat is really your fair share to eat when considering all the people in the world and realistically how many animals can be raised in a sustainable manner.
No matter how the animal lives its life, it's still a bloody business. Yes, veg products eaten by veggies and onmis alike may be obtained in less sustainable/ethical manner, but it is entirely possible.
also http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0803/opinions-energy-locavores-on-my-mind.html

Tell me how me eating my sustainable, local beef has any effect on whether someone in the third world gets some food or not? There is no way you can grow enough food organically (as in without pertrochemically-derived fertilisers) to feed the world either, does that mean no one should eat organic food?

dr.bollocko

Changed the thread title because the misspelling was annoying.
Now time for some beef.

vaalea

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Tell me how me eating my sustainable, local beef has any effect on whether someone in the third world gets some food or not? There is no way you can grow enough food organically (as in without pertrochemically-derived fertilisers) to feed the world either, does that mean no one should eat organic food?

So you are not arguing that people are meant to/must eat meat at all, you are arguing that you deserve to eat meat since you get it from local grassfed operation.

Since you are making the claim on that organic food, you want to back it up? I would say, yes impossible when we are feeding vast quantities of food to livestock we slaughter and eat... but not impossible.

OctavarIan

While I'm not vegetarian my diet mostly is, because cheap meat just tastes bad or in the case of chicken it doesn't taste at all. You have to drown it in so much seasoning or sauce that you might as well be eating a vegetarian dish anyway.

Vegetarian dishes are easier, cheaper and more fun to make, not to mention more inventive and tasty.

Meat is great, but only so long as it's quality and not cheap supermarket/frozen stuff.

CokaColumbo

If you think that it is wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering or death upon a non-human animal, you should not consume any animal products. What is necessary about animal industry?

All animal agriculture, including eggs and dairy, no matter how humane it is, results in the deaths of animals. When the productivity of a cow or hen drops beyond a certain point, they are slaughtered and made into meat. Vegetarians are just as responsible for this as anybody by continuing to sustain these industries and their practices with demand and money.

The most notable health organisations have stated that a vegan diet is entirely conducive to an optimally healthy lifestyle, and animal agriculture is, worldwide, an environmental disaster.

In my opinion, vegetarians and meat-eaters are indistinguishable, especially considering the fact that the former often increases their reliance on non-meat animal products to get enough protein etc.

Absurdum

is this stupid sh1t still going on :rolleyes:

strobe

CokaColumbo wrote: »

If you think that it is wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering or death upon a non-human animal, you should not consume any animal products. What is necessary about animal industry?

All animal agriculture, including eggs and dairy, no matter how humane it is, results in the deaths of animals. When the productivity of a cow or hen drops beyond a certain point, they are slaughtered and made into meat. Vegetarians are just as responsible for this as anybody by continuing to sustain these industries and their practices with demand and money.

The most notable health organisations have stated that a vegan diet is entirely conducive to an optimally healthy lifestyle, and animal agriculture is, worldwide, an environmental disaster.

In my opinion, vegetarians and meat-eaters are indistinguishable, especially considering the fact that the former often increases their reliance on non-meat animal products to get enough protein etc.

Ideally you should probably just commit suicide. Even on a strict vegan diet the damage you are doing to the environment and therefore to wildlife over the course of your life is massive. Plus your body could be used as fertiliser once it begins to decompose. That's the ideal solution.

OctavarIan

strobe wrote: »

Plus your body could be used as fertiliser once it begins to decompose. That's the ideal solution.

You can safely compost your own poo though and that would give a greater lifetime yield :pac:

BickNarry

CokaColumbo wrote: »

All animal agriculture, including eggs and dairy, no matter how humane it is, results in the deaths of animals. When the productivity of a cow or hen drops beyond a certain point, they are slaughtered and made into meat. Vegetarians are just as responsible for this as anybody by continuing to sustain these industries and their practices with demand and money.


In my opinion, vegetarians and meat-eaters are indistinguishable.

Not all vegetarians shop at Tesco, and ALOT take serious consideration into where their food comes from. So its unfair to make your first claim when there is no evidence thatt all vegetarians buy casually and not ethically.

Also,we are living in the era of globalisation-a contemporary economic and social structure. Big business s not nowhere near ethical,and does not take in the interests of others. And the fact that they have done an amazingly efficient job at white washing industries and eliminating small competition means that there is less choice for us.

To admit defeat to this would be a tragedy.

Strive to survive causing least suffering possible beats consuming regardless.Hence, how to distinguish between the two.

strobe

OctavarIan wrote: »

You can safely compost your own poo though and that would give a greater lifetime yield :pac:

I tried that before. Now they won't let me back into the garden centre.

Rockn

seamus wrote: »

The food chain is a nonsense concept. Logically by not feeding yourself to a higher predator, like a tiger, you too are rejecting your place in the food chain.

I let my cat lick me. Does that count?

Bobeagleburger

When will it become socially acceptable to eat humans?