Bohs in urgent plea for help

stovelid

CiaranC wrote: »

Bohs sang songs about rows of houses and carparks on Milltown, cheered and celebrated our homelessness, displayed banners supporting Thomas Davis in the court case to keep us out of Tallaght, ignored the pickets on Tolka (deliberately turning up in numbers to keep the Kilcoynes going), and have attacked and denigrated our fans efforts to rescue and run the club at every turn. Shels got the same treatment. Its silly not to expect people to reciprocate.

Add the defacing of monuments to that too.

Plus of all the champions who steamrollered the division on unsustainable money in the last ten years, Bohs were by far the least gracious.

BornToRun88

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I personally hope they go bust. The more teams that suffer the full possible consequences the less likely teams will be to follow them into the Financial abyss.

why don't you just admit you hate them

BornToRun88

BOHtox wrote: »

There is a very good chance of us raising 300k.
Celtic have had a offer of 70k for Madden accepted.
Nutsy will probably go aswell for 80-100k. 150k raised there. + less wages+ fans donations+ membership drives+ Membership renewals(worth around 150k) so hopefully we'll be ok.

Disappointing the amount we got for Madden, he's worth may more than that. At least double that if anything. Typical tho about LOI clubs getting ripped out by British clubs for clubs with Kevin Doyle being the biggest example.

If the figures you mention are correct, the signs look good for Bohs to raise this 300,000.

BornToRun88

monkey9 wrote: »

Although i don't like to see any club in trouble, i've no sympathy for Bohs. They've basically been cheating the last few seasons.

The fans were aware of it but revelled in it all the same. Chanting game after game about how 'we are invincible'.

Turns out, they're not!!

Wanna go into detail about how they've been cheating and not just make a general and clearly biased statement.

On the 'we are invincible' chant
If you're a rovers fan which im sure you are, hasn't the league title gone to your heads in the last few weeks as it does to every team with your fans talking about buying every player and becoming Rosenbourg in the league now, do me a favour and learn from us cos from the chatter I've been hearing from your crowd is the sort of arrogance that will lead rovers down the same road as bohs.

LuckyLloyd

BOHtox wrote: »

Rovers fan?

UCD

Moneymaker wrote: »

Very surprised to hear that coming from you Lloyd.

Why? I have consistently critiscised LOI teams who have rampantly overspent for years now. As to those who say 'well this is warning enough for the rest of the league' - I say look at Drogheda and Cork City still playing football matches. So long as clubs know that they will survive in some fashion they will continue to take the piss like Bohs have.

It's kind of a good deal in some ways! Get to win the league a couple of times and have a couple of shots at European football before you are consigned to a few years of rebuilding in the lower division. So long as those are the terms on offer, some chairman will come along to take them with both arms outstretched.


And in anycase, a lot of Bohs fans I've come across were not the most graceful winners in the world. And when they were fully aware of the ticking financial time bomb too. **** them.

TangyZizzle

Hope they survive, but I also hope they suffer the full consequences of their actions.

Pineapple stu

Hope they get through this for the sake of the genuine fan.

BOHtox

BornToRun88 wrote: »

Disappointing the amount we got for Madden, he's worth may more than that. At least double that if anything. Typical tho about LOI clubs getting ripped out by British clubs for clubs with Kevin Doyle being the biggest example.

If the figures you mention are correct, the signs look good for Bohs to raise this 300,000.

The Madden deal may not go ahead for two reasons. Madden doesn't want to go as 1) he wants more money and 2) there is noo reserve league over there so no first team football= no football

Nalz

gimmick wrote: »

Boha can bite the back of my bollocks tbh. They are a single micricosm of what is going on in this country. They had unrealsistc ambitions, borrowed too much and fúcked up.

I hope they get demoted and rot in the 1st division with CCFC and Shels for a while.

I really hope not but can't argue with that tbh - Bohs fan

aliveandkicking

BornToRun88 wrote: »

Wanna go into detail about how they've been cheating and not just make a general and clearly biased statement.

They bought the best players and paid them more than other clubs would/could pay. They did this with borrowed money they now can't pay back. They basically bought two leagues titles with money they don't have and that is cheating in my book.

TangyZizzle

aliveandkicking wrote: »

They bought the best players and paid them more than other clubs would/could pay. They did this with borrowed money they now can't pay back. They basically bought two leagues titles with money they don't have and that is cheating in my book.

Not cheating, severe short sightedness/optimism/stupidness, maybe definitely.

darragh16

If Boh's weren't granted a license, would Pats get their European place?

Diabhal Beag

gimmick wrote: »

Boha can bite the back of my bollocks tbh. They are a single micricosm of what is going on in this country. They had unrealsistc ambitions, borrowed too much and fúcked up.

I hope they get demoted and rot in the 1st division with CCFC and Shels for a while.

To be fair Europe was a big aspiration for Cork and Bohs. At least with Shelbourne you can say they almost tasted Champion's League football until the second half of the Deportivo match. When they didn't progress I knew no other Irish club would ever get that far again. No sympathy for the other too or Drogheda.

dreamers75

darragh16 wrote: »

If Boh's weren't granted a license, would Pats get their European place?

yup

BOHtox

aliveandkicking wrote: »

They bought the best players and paid them more than other clubs would/could pay. They did this with borrowed money they now can't pay back. They basically bought two leagues titles with money they don't have and that is cheating in my book.

When Bohs won the double they had the third biggest budget.
Two years ago that budget was slashed by 600,000
This (ie last years) years budget was reduced also.
Next year we will have a break even budget of hopefully a million or less

aliveandkicking

BOHtox wrote: »

When Bohs won the double they had the third biggest budget.
Two years ago that budget was slashed by 600,000
This (ie last years) years budget was reduced also.
Next year we will have a break even budget of hopefully a million or less

Third biggest 2 years ago? So what, it was still way more than you could afford, same last year, same this year no matter how much you cut. Your budget for at least the last 5 years was more than you could afford. Living way beyond your means. Your league titles are tainted with the knowledge they were bought with money you ultimately didn't have.

BornToRun88

aliveandkicking wrote: »

They bought the best players and paid them more than other clubs would/could pay. They did this with borrowed money they now can't pay back. They basically bought two leagues titles with money they don't have and that is cheating in my book.

that's more like foolish spending and bad book-keeping. Hardly cheating.

bohsboy

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Your league titles are tainted with the knowledge they were bought with money you ultimately didn't have.

Tainted? :pac: Like winning on goal difference?

dartsfan

Not a big LoI follower but have read through this thread, and can't understand how a LoI club could find themselves with 5 MILLION euro of debt. I could understand a couple of hundred thousand on a couple of years extravagance, but how the hell did they land themselves in the millions, and how will they ever get out of it?

Sounds like outrageous mismanagement, doesn't do the league's credibility any good to see this happening every year.

What's going to happen? Another club will loan heavily, win the league and then plummet down again within a couple of years? Seems pointless to an outsider....

major bill

dartsfan wrote: »

Not a big LoI follower but have read through this thread, and can't understand how a LoI club could find themselves with 5 MILLION euro of debt. I could understand a couple of hundred thousand on a couple of years extravagance, but how the hell did they land themselves in the millions, and how will they ever get out of it?

Sounds like outrageous mismanagement, doesn't do the league's credibility any good to see this happening every year.

What's going to happen? Another club will loan heavily, win the league and then plummet down again within a couple of years? Seems pointless to an outsider....

to keep it short and sweet a massive loan in the millions was taking out by bohs about 3-4 years ago, at this time bohs were expecting the 60 million windfall from the ground sale so felt it wouldnt come back to bite us in the arse obviously all before the economic collapse and before the deal went through the courts as it turned out the bohs board had already sold the tramway end of the ground to a property developer around 4 years previous. This basically brought the deal to a standstill and eventually it collapsed leaving bohs with massive debt.

bad management by the board pure and simple.

Beefy78

BornToRun88 wrote: »

that's more like foolish spending and bad book-keeping. Hardly cheating.

Absolutely it's cheating. Any Club who spends more money than it can afford on player transfers and wages to gain an on-field advantage over clubs that cut their cloth according to their means is cheating. It's financial steroid abuse.

Roaster

Beefy78 wrote: »

Absolutely it's cheating. Any Club who spends more money than it can afford on player transfers and wages to gain an on-field advantage over clubs that cut their cloth according to their means is cheating. It's financial steroid abuse.

Someone should have a word with Real Madrid and Barcelona so...

Beefy78

How Madrid have got away with some of what they have got away with previously (getting the State to essentially write-off their entire debt a few years back) I'll never know. Barcelona's cashflow problems in the Summer were well documented. But these are huge brands which generate massive amounts of cash and when they over-spend they're able to find the money from somewhere.

The Football League in England is littered with Clubs who have cheated by spending money that they don't have and are facing the consequences of that now. Sheffield Wednesday, Portsmouth, Southend United, Cardiff... The tired cliche of "it's always the fans who suffer" gets rolled out every time yet it's the fans who are benefiting when their club finishes above one who hasn't spent it's tax money on wages.

I hope Bohs survive, but I hope that this is a wake-up call to them and to other Clubs in Ireland. Unfortunately it may take the failure of a big club to bring the message home both here and over the water in England.

OhNoYouDidn't

Roaster wrote: »

Someone should have a word with Real Madrid and Barcelona so...

La Liga doesn't have a wage cap. The LoI does.

The reason that there is even less symapthy than normal for Bohs is twofold:

1: They were appaling winners and have revelled in other clubs misfortune, even to the point where they helped accelerate Cork Citys decline with a few well timed complaints.

2: They are a members club. At lease with Cork under Arkagia and Coughlan, Shels under Olly and Rovers under maguire fans were very much on the outside and fought hard to get inside. They had 500 members vote year after year for their "business model" which was based on selling the ground twice and borrowing off the potential cashing in of an option on the place that was never guaranteed.

They walked into this mess with their eyes open.

In terms of the immediate issue, I give them 50/50 on PD versus A League (and thats where they will go, the FAI don't send bold clubs to the 1st anymore). If they can get the revenue and the players to strike a deal on moneys owed I can't see the FAI pulling the plug.

OhNoYouDidn't

This is exactly the sort of deusion Bohs have wrapped themselves in:

BOHtox wrote: »

No we're at about 50% of scp.

You are in your holes. If you owe players wages and bonuses, owe the tax man and the FAI, logic dictates you are at over 100% of SCP.

There is no way on gods green earth you are at 50% when Rovers have 2/3 of your wage bill, 4 times your crowds and are at 60%.

Get real mate, this is happening. No time to parrot what the Gerry's fed you.

BOHtox wrote: »

Celtic have had a offer of 70k for Madden accepted.

So what, he doesn't want to go.

BOHtox wrote: »

Nutsy will probably go aswell for 80-100k.

Where? He had a chance to go to Dundee Utd, then TNS happened. He will struggle to get a job in the LoI, you are on la la land if you think he his off overseas. It will COST YOU 80-100k to get him off the books.

BOHtox wrote: »

150k raised there. + less wages+ fans donations+ membership drives+ Membership renewals(worth around 150k) so hopefully we'll be ok.

So you take 150k out of next years cashflow. What do you do then? Zurich are owed BIG money next season.

BOHtox wrote: »

1. It's around 5 million yes.
2. Correct. AFAIK

They say its around 5m. How do you know?

iregk

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

They were appaling winners and have revelled in other clubs misfortune, even to the point where they helped accelerate Cork Citys decline with a few well timed complaints.

Absolutely agree here. Back in they day plenty of other clubs, most notibly Sligo, rallied in behind Rovers when we lost our ground. Bohs just couldn't wait to dance all over our grave and absolutely revelled in it. Every now and again still to this day they can't help but make the trip out to vandalise the monument.

OhNoYouDidn't

iregk wrote: »

Absolutely agree here. Back in they day plenty of other clubs, most notibly Sligo, rallied in behind Rovers when we lost our ground. Bohs just couldn't wait to dance all over our grave and absolutely revelled in it. Every now and again still to this day they can't help but make the trip out to vandalise the monument.

Preciscely. They were always a small club that got ahead of themselves. Their obsession with Rovers finally did for them.

BOHtox

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

This is exactly the sort of deusion Bohs have wrapped themselves in:



1)You are in your holes. If you owe players wages and bonuses, owe the tax man and the FAI, logic dictates you are at over 100% of SCP.

There is no way on gods green earth you are at 50% when Rovers have 2/3 of your wage bill, 4 times your crowds and are at 60%.

Get real mate, this is happening. No time to parrot what the Gerry's fed you.




2)So what, he doesn't want to go.



3)Where? He had a chance to go to Dundee Utd, then TNS happened. He will struggle to get a job in the LoI, you are on la la land if you think he his off overseas. It will COST YOU 80-100k to get him off the books.



4)So you take 150k out of next years cashflow. What do you do then? Zurich are owed BIG money next season.



5)They say its around 5m. How do you know?

1. Well we budgeted for being around 46% so I'm just guessing really. I'd say we're quite close to 60% though.
2. Yes he doesn't want to go and afaik the deal has since been called off.
3. We didn't let Nutsy go as we wanted 250k and Dundee only would have given us 100k. I doubt Nutsy will be here next year so it will cost a club around 100k to get his services.
4. Pretty much yes. But I'd rather have this problem next year and a sh1te team than no club at all.
5. I'm a member thank you very much.

BOHtox

BTW sir did you know Rovers lost around 600k since moving in to Tallaght?

stovelid

BOHtox wrote: »

When Bohs won the double they had the third biggest budget.
Two years ago that budget was slashed by 600,000
This (ie last years) years budget was reduced also.
Next year we will have a break even budget of hopefully a million or less

A player budget of one million??!!

BOHtox

stovelid wrote: »

A player budget of one million??!!

No overall. Players, ground maintenance stuff like that.

aliveandkicking

BOHtox wrote: »

BTW sir did you know Rovers lost around 600k since moving in to Tallaght?

100% factually incorrect but do carry on.

BOHtox

http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/aug/08/shamrock-rovers-losses-rise-to-620570/?q=shamrock


LEAGUE of Ireland side Shamrock Rovers had retained losses of €620,570 in its last financial year, newly filed accounts for the club reveal.

The loss for the year to the end of November 2009 widened from €476,606 in the previous year, according to the abridged accounts.

Despite a deficit of more than €200,000 in shareholders' funds, the accounts were prepared on a going concern basis.

However, a note to the accounts said this "depends upon the company receiving future support from the banks, trade creditors, the Revenue Commissioners and from the shareholders and also a sustainable business plan for the foreseeable future".

The Hoops, which went into examinership five years ago, are owned by 400 fans. It is Ireland's most successful club, winning the league 15 times and the FAI Cup 24 times.

Rovers are currently joint top of the Airtricity league with St Patrick's Athletic.

Last week the team lost 3-0 on aggregate to Italian giants Juventus in the UEFA Europa League. The first leg, played in Rovers' Tallaght home ground, drew a crowd of 6,000.





So excuse me

dfx-

Do Bohs still owe Gary O'Neill?

BOHtox wrote: »

BTW sir did you know Rovers lost around 600k since moving in to Tallaght?

Are you sure about that? Did you read it right? Or are you remembering wrong...

BOHtox

aliveandkicking wrote: »

100% factually incorrect but do carry on.

Waaaaay

aliveandkicking

BOHtox wrote: »

http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/aug/08/shamrock-rovers-losses-rise-to-620570/?q=shamrock

So are you standing by your post that Rovers lost 600,000 since moving to Tallaght?

BOHtox

aliveandkicking wrote: »

So are you standing by your post that Rovers lost 600,000 since moving to Tallaght?

retained losses

aliveandkicking

BOHtox wrote: »

BTW sir did you know Rovers lost around 600k since moving in to Tallaght?

This is what you said. It is 100% factually incorrect.

CiaranC

BOHtox wrote: »

Waaaaay

The irony of a Bohs fan posting that, haha.

We had retained losses of 620k last year, that figure has since been drastically reduced.

The Juve fixture alone generated over 300k for the club this year.

dfx-

BOHtox wrote: »

retained losses

So Rovers lost 200k according to that article, not 600k since moving in to Tallaght. (Maths are not the strong point at Dalymount, so I went ahead and subtracted for you)

And that debt has been explained to members.

BOHtox

aliveandkicking wrote: »

This is what you said. It is 100% factually incorrect.

ok you have 600k debt

stovelid

BOHtox wrote: »

LEAGUE of Ireland side Shamrock Rovers had retained losses of €620,570 in its last financial year, newly filed accounts for the club reveal.

..

No member is going to waffle about our business on here, unlike your comic soap opera of a club. We'll see who is making a loss when the next set of results are out.

BOHtox

stovelid wrote: »

..

No member is going to waffle about our business on here, unlike your comic soap opera of a club. We'll see who is making a loss when the next set of results are out.

I'm just saying you're not too great when it comes to your finances and financial history

aliveandkicking

Retained losses are not technically a debt either. Much of that 600k figure actually comes from the examinership in 2005 and the company retained this loss in the accounts ever since.

OhNoYouDidn't

BOHtox wrote: »

ok you have 600k debt

No. Don't you worry about Rovers.

This thread is about your real and actual losses, not a badly researched article in relation to one of Rovers companies while ignoring the others.

OhNoYouDidn't

BOHtox wrote: »

1. Well we budgeted for being around 46% so I'm just guessing really. I'd say we're quite close to 60% though.

Do they sell tickets to your world? How can you possibly be talking about a figure in the 40% range when players are owed at least 4 weeks money? If you can't pay players you have breached SCP. Its that simple.

BOHtox wrote: »

2. Yes he doesn't want to go and afaik the deal has since been called off.

So discount that money.

BOHtox wrote: »

3. We didn't let Nutsy go as we wanted 250k and Dundee only would have given us 100k. I doubt Nutsy will be here next year so it will cost a club around 100k to get his services.

And they are queueing up, are they? Fax whirring?

You are factoring in the sale of a manager, who can walk for free at any time, to an unamed foreign club in the middle of their season. Bewildering.

BOHtox wrote: »

4. Pretty much yes. But I'd rather have this problem next year and a sh1te team than no club at all.

Understood, but this is round 1. This is the opening shot in a long 10 years for your club.

BOHtox wrote: »

5. I'm a member thank you very much.

Do you mind me asking did you vote for this or raise any objections?

BOHtox

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Do you mind me asking did you vote for this or raise any objections?

I'm a new member if you want me to be honest. This is my first year. Supporting them since 2001 but only got one earlier this year.

Re: scp

We are not on danger of being over scp afaik.

re: Nutsy

I'd rather him walk now for nothing then wait for his contract to walk out

Paulw

BOHtox wrote: »

We are not on danger of being over scp afaik.

I think you're mistaken there.

It's a realy shame for any club to be in financial problems, and this economy only makes it harder on every club. No club in Ireland is immune to financial concerns.

But, large debt is a real killer.

I really don't know how Bohs will survive or how they can service their current debt. A shame really, but that's reality.

OhNoYouDidn't

BOHtox wrote: »

Re: scp

We are not on danger of being over scp afaik.

If you think that you are an idiot. Cashflow self evidently did not cover wages.

BOHtox wrote: »

re: Nutsy

I'd rather him walk now for nothing then wait for his contract to walk out

Why on earth would he walk for nothing now? The only chance Nutsy will walk for zip is if a foreign club offers him a job in the morning and he can get the compensation Bohs would be owed if he had been paid on time as a signing on bonus. Otherwise he is on the wagebill until you buy him out. He said exactly that last week.

All the Bozo's I know repeated the mantra that the wagebill would be in the region of 20% last years. Which is fine, but they all also assumed that ALL players would be released, including the ones under contract and didn't seem to quite understand that they might not simply rip up their contracts and the money owed. Meanwhile all 10 players still in the books are owed €15,000 per week, plus tax.

BOHtox

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Why on earth would he walk for nothing now? The only chance Nutsy will walk for zip is if a foreign club offers him a job in the morning and he can get the compensation Bohs would be owed if he had been paid on time as a signing on bonus. Otherwise he is on the wagebill until you buy him out. He said exactly that last week.

All the Bozo's I know repeated the mantra that the wagebill would be in the region of 20% last years. Which is fine, but they all also assumed that ALL players would be released, including the ones under contract and didn't seem to quite understand that they might not simply rip up their contracts and the money owed. Meanwhile all 10 players still in the books are owed €15,000 per week, plus tax.

AFAIK he has his own company not too sure what. We have 14 contracted players.