Doing everything your power to ensure your children are Christian

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

So that's why you've been beating this dead donkey for the last week and a half?


You don't want Children to be neutral, get off your high horse and admit you just don't want Children to grow up to be Christians.


Either way, This thread is retarded.
Christians SHOULD raise their children to be Christians because we know that (a) a relationship with God is what is best for them an (b) the bible tells us to do it.

There is no discussion to be had here.

So you'll be teaching your kids that open discussion on the religion is "retarded" then?
:pac:

optogirl

Seaneh wrote: »

Either way, This thread is retarded.

There is no discussion to be had here.

How very christian of you

Seaneh

bluewolf wrote: »

So you'll be teaching your kids that open discussion on the religion is "retarded" then?
:pac:

I will encourage my Children to question why I believe things, I will encourage them to explore the depth of their own faith and if they truly believe what they should. If they are merely cosmetic Christians then they have missed the point entirely.
However, I will, from a very young age, teach them about God's role in their life, how they can have a relationship with God and why that is important.

Zombrex

antiskeptic wrote: »

My child will have choice. God or no.

That is not how the choice will appear to them.

Again that is like saying my child will have a choice as to what career, doctor or something else and everything else is a bad career.

Of course that still leaves your child with a multitude of choices as to what career they take. Your child will see "doctor" as simply one of the large number of possible career choices.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Your saying that atheism and Islam are different.

Islam and atheism are different. You are focusing purely on what you see as the consequences of not choosing Christianity. That is rather short sighted.

antiskeptic wrote: »

You've done nothing here but counter my perspective with your's. That leads to stalemate.

The stalemate is that you are thinking about what it would be like for you as a Christian to consider other religions.

In reality you should be thinking what it is like for your child, who hasn't yet chosen Christianity,

antiskeptic wrote: »

On the matter central to all religions, all non-Christian religions are saying the same thing:

Only if you are a Christian. Which your son or daughter wouldn't be yet.

So that is not how they will see it.

So the question is do you want to help them choose a religion, or do you want to influence them to choose Christianity?

antiskeptic wrote: »

your standing before the god in question is dependent on what you do. I won't go into the means by which non-Christian religions tie in with paganism and atheism here. Suffice for now to point to both the prodigal son (as modelling the irreligious) and the stay-at-home obedient son (the works-based religionist) as being equally lost in the eyes of the father.

Again that is an issue over whether they pick the option you think is best. It is not a question of whether they have options or what these options look like.

Again it would doing your child a disservice to say something like this to them "With regards to your career you have two options, become a doctor or choose something else that will end in disappointment and financial ruin. Choose"

That isn't helping your child choose a career that they want, it is influencing them to choose the career you want for them.

antiskeptic wrote: »

It's not the falsity that matters, it's whether they have something tangibly different to offer or not. If you think they have something different to offer then they should all have a seat at the table. If you think they are shades of the same thing in essence then you should take off the sweet wrapping and ensure its the contents that are offered in balanced fashion.

I think they are all the manipulations of men trying to control the population with regards to moral practice. I think they are all lies. I think they are all offer nothing but manipulation and subservance to the moral ideas of long dead men.

But again that isn't the important bit. I'm an atheist. I've already made my decision

antiskeptic wrote: »

5 bags of the religious sweet isn't a fair balance to 1 bag of atheist sweet.

Again you are viewing it wrong. It isn't 5 bags of religious sweet verses 1 bag of atheist sweets to my child.

It is 6 bags of options. Remember they have not decided yet.

So there is no verse yet for them, or more accurately they are all verses each other. Islam and Hinduism aren't ganging up on Christianity to someone sitting down to read the Bible and the Quran. To a neutral person they are saying very different things from each other.

Using the earlier analogy, no one would think architecture and being a life guard are the same thing simply because neither of them are being a doctor. You might say well they are all not being a doctor so to me they are all as bad as the other. But that is not the position a neutral person will take.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I appreciate your point and would suppose the 90% or so who ticked the Catholic box in the last census did so because the major influences in their lives were Catholic. But statistics don't say anything about Christianity

That isn't the issue though. The issue isn't whether theres people are true Christians. Their parents might not have been true Christians. You could forget Christianity completely and just look at a religion we both think is false, Islam.

The same effect happens, constantly and consistently

It doesn't matter what the ideology is, or whether it is true or false. What matters is if the parents teach it to the kids.

Saying well unlike those other people I'm teaching true Christianity to my kids is irrelevant to whether or not the mere fact that it is taught to them as children will greatly effect them.

Seaneh

optogirl wrote: »

How very christian of you

Christianity isn't a forum for debate, it is laid out for us to follow not for us to try and apply our own personal likes and dislikes to. It's either all in or all out, there is no such thing as a half was Christian.

Seaneh

Wicknight wrote: »

Islam and atheism are different. You are focusing purely on what you see as the consequences of not choosing Christianity. That is rather short sighted.

I think NOT focusing on what the consequences of not choosing Christianity would mean to their children would be short sighted for a Christian.

I think just about every other Christian would agree with me there.

Zombrex

Seaneh wrote: »

So that's why you've been beating this dead donkey for the last week and a half?

Nice selective quote :rolleyes: Did you read a few letters afterwards

I don't want my kid to become a Christian. I really don't like Christianity, I think it is immoral. But I also think it is important that my children understand that themselves. If they don't, and choose Christianity or Islam then I will be disappointed but it is their choice. It is more wrong of me to choose that for them.

I could be like you and simply say I don't want my kids to be Christian, my kid should be atheist, atheist is the true position and I'm going to raise them as an atheist. I would be pretty much guaranteed to make them an atheist doing that.

But I'm not going to do that, even if it means they become (under their own choice) a Christian. I await the inevitable How dare you judge me! How dare you take the moral high ground with me! How dare you! blah blah blah! comment

Seaneh wrote: »

You don't want Children to be neutral, get off your high horse and admit you just don't want Children to grow up to be Christians.

I don't want children to grow up Christians. Was there some confusion about this?

Zombrex

Seaneh wrote: »

I think NOT focusing on what the consequences of not choosing Christianity would mean to their children would be short sighted for a Christian.

No one asked you to not think about the consequences of not choosing Christianity would mean for your child. :rolleyes:

Seaneh

Wicknight wrote: »

I await the inevitable How dare you judge me! How dare you take the moral high ground with me! How dare you! blah blah blah! comment

I don't care if you judge me, it means nothing. I know you have no moral high ground here and I know I am right about what is best for my children. Scripture and experience tells me that a realtionship with God is the best thing they could possible have in their life. I don't need your consensus on the matter.

Zombrex

Seaneh wrote: »

I will encourage my Children to question why I believe things

Given your behavior on this forum I find that very difficult to believe. I'm wondering at what point you flip from happily answering questions about Christianity to defensive insults and "this is retarded" comments when it is your kids going the questioning. Actually questions, not the easy ones like "Does God love me Mommy?" :rolleyes:

Seaneh

Wicknight wrote: »

No one asked you to not think about the consequences of not choosing Christianity would mean for your child. :rolleyes:

But by not raising them in the truth that is exactly what you are doing.

Zombrex

Seaneh wrote: »

But by not raising them in the truth that is exactly what you are doing.

No it isn't.

Letting them make their own choice even if you think that a non-Christian choice is a terrible choice is not the same as saying don't think about your kids choosing a non-Christian religion.

Seaneh

Wicknight wrote: »

Given your behavior on this forum I find that very difficult to believe. I'm wondering at what point you flip from happily answering questions about Christianity to defensive insults and "this is retarded" comments when it is your kids going the questioning. Actually questions, not the easy ones like "Does God love me Mommy?" :rolleyes:

This thread is retarded. You are trying to argue that it's bad parenting to teach our children to have a relationship with their creator. That makes no sense to a Christian, it's down right bad advice in a Christian context. I am happy to answer genuine questions but I'm not going to pointless debate something that is not up for debate with someone who is only on a soap box because they themselves have an anti-theist agenda.
You mask this with feigned concern for our hypothetical children and act like we are the ones who are being unreasonable and potentially damaging our children when in reality you just want our children to grow up to be atheists because that suits your little agenda.

Proverb 22:6
Ephesians 6:4
Mark 10:13-14

Scripture tells us to raise our Children in Christ, no other reason is needed to do so, we don't have to justify it to anybody.

Seaneh

Wicknight wrote: »

No it isn't.

Letting them make their own choice even if you think that a non-Christian choice is a terrible choice is not the same as saying don't think about your kids choosing a non-Christian religion.

I will let them make their own choice. I will just raise them in such a way that they should make the right choice.
Just like I will raise them to believe that going to university is the right choice or playing a sport or learning an instrument or having an interest in reading or not committing crimes is the right choice because I know it's best for them in the long run.

It's a fairly simple concept to grasp, what exactly is your problem here?

Zombrex

Seaneh wrote: »

This thread is retarded. You are trying to argue that it's bad parenting to teach our children to have a relationship with their creator. That makes no sense to a Christian, it's down right bad advice in a Christian context.

And what are you going to do when your kids question Christian advice?

Seaneh wrote: »

I will let them make their own choice. I will just raise them in such a way that they should make the right choice.

And if they don't? Insults? Dismissal? I don't have to justify this to you now go to your room, sort of thing?

antiskeptic

Wicknight wrote: »

That is not how the choice will appear to them.

You don't seem to be grasping that this is about perspectives. That the child might not eventually share my perspective is about is irrelevant as you not sharing my perspective.

What's relevant is whether I can consider myself to be supplying a balanced choice. That is my job

Islam and atheism are different. You are focusing purely on what you see as the consequences of not choosing Christianity. That is rather short sighted.

Perpectives. Atheism and Islam are identical.

I'm not going to plough the perspective furrow any longer with you - that point has been made and isn't counterd by posing your own perspective. I'll merely note P. where you're going over that old ground.

The stalemate is that you are thinking about what it would be like for you as a Christian to consider other religions.

In reality you should be thinking what it is like for your child, who hasn't yet chosen Christianity

P.

Only if you are a Christian. Which your son or daughter wouldn't be yet.

So that is not how they will see it.

So the question is do you want to help them choose a religion, or do you want to influence them to choose Christianity?

P.

Again that is an issue over whether they pick the option you think is best. It is not a question of whether they have options or what these options look like.

It's not a question of them picking the option I think best. It's a matter of them being faced with a balance in options. The question then is whether balance is achieved by seeing all non-Christian religions as variations on the same thing (viewing them as one option) or whether they should all have an equal crack at the whip ( viewing them as multiple options)

If I achieve balance then I'm happy with whatever option they choose (in a primary sense - I might be unhappy with what they choose in a secondary sense)

I think they are all the manipulations of men trying to control the population with regards to moral practice. I think they are all lies. I think they are all offer nothing but manipulation and subservance to the moral ideas of long dead men.

But again that isn't the important bit. I'm an atheist. I've already made my decision

Here's the question for you again - seeing as you didn't answer it.

it's whether they have something tangibly different to offer or not. If you think they have something different to offer then they should all have a seat at the table. If you think they are shades of the same thing in essence then you should take off the sweet wrapping and ensure its the contents that are offered in balanced fashion.

Something tangibly different or in essence the same thing. You call.

Again you are viewing it wrong. It isn't 5 bags of religious sweet verses 1 bag of atheist sweets to my child.

It is 6 bags of options.

P.

Remember they have not decided yet.

No they haven't. But it's me whose got to decide whether the choice is a balanced on or not. I get to decide that - they get to from the options presented.

So there is no verse yet for them, or more accurately they are all verses each other. Islam and Hinduism aren't ganging up on Christianity to someone sitting down to read the Bible and the Quran. To a neutral person they are saying very different things from each other.

Where is this neutral person and how do they establish their bonefides?

P.

That isn't the issue though. The issue isn't whether theres people are true Christians. Their parents might not have been true Christians. You could forget Christianity completely and just look at a religion we both think is false, Islam.

The same effect happens, constantly and consistently

It doesn't matter what the ideology is, or whether it is true or false. What matters is if the parents teach it to the kids.

Saying well unlike those other people I'm teaching true Christianity to my kids is irrelevant to whether or not the mere fact that it is taught to them as children will greatly effect them.

I'm afraid you don't get around the "no true Christian" problem by stating there is no problem. If Christians are indeed born of God and not made by man then your statistics have nothing to say. If not, then you would likely be on the money.

Seaneh

Wicknight wrote: »

And what are you going to do when your kids question Christian advice?

Show them why it's sound advice. Just like I will when the ask me "why do I have to go to school?"

I will explain why it is best for them, how it benefits them and why it is important.

If I just said "because I said said so, that's why" they would be resentful.
I'll do my Job a a parent properly and make sure they grow up knowing what a relationship with God feels like, then they have nothing to question on that front.

Wicknight wrote: »

And if they don't? Insults? Dismissal? I don't have to justify this to you now go to your room, sort of thing?

If they don't make the right choice? Try and show them the truth before it's too late.

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

I will let them make their own choice. I will just raise them in such a way that they should make the right choice.

lol
"you can have any colour as long as it's black" eh

Seaneh

bluewolf wrote: »

lol
"you can have any colour as long as it's black" eh

No.

I will teach them what is best for them, if they choose something else I will still love them just as much.

I see no benefit in teaching the "virtues" of atheism/islam/hinduism/buddhism/etc because in my eyes these things have no virtue and are of no benefit to my children.

I will teach them that going to college is what is best for them but if they choose to join the army or become a mechanic after the leaving certificate I will still love them. I would let them know I think they could do better for themselves but the decision is ultimately theirs.


I will encourage them to learn a second and possible third language because I know it will be beneficial to them in the long run but if at the age of 14/15/16 they decide to give it up and only speak English, that is their choice, I can do nothing about it.


Why should I teach them all these things which merely make their lives slightly easier than without them and not teach them something as important and the truth of their creator which is infinitely more important than whether or not they get a college degree or have a good job.

Zombrex

antiskeptic wrote: »

You don't seem to be grasping that this is about perspectives. That the child might not eventually share my perspective is about is irrelevant as you not sharing my perspective.

Not if you care about your kids having a choice in the matter.

You have to ask yourself which is more important to you, that they are free to choose a religion or that they are Christian.

antiskeptic wrote: »

What's relevant is whether I can consider myself to be offering a balanced choice. That is my job

Exactly.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Perpectives. Atheism and Islam are identical.

To you.

It is some what pointless to talk about perspectives and then ignore the only perspective that matters, that of a neutral party (ie your kid).

antiskeptic wrote: »

It's not a question of them picking the option I think best. It's a matter of them being faced with a balance in options.

Yes. And it is not a balance of options for you to raise them saying that Christianity is right and all other religions and view points are all the same and equally wrong.

That isn't "balance". It is dismissive. You kid isn't going to be inclined to explore Hinduism if you telling him there is nothing in it any different to any other religion and it is all wrong.

Sitting back saying job done, I've maintained the balance is just silly. An atheist ad man pushing Links on your son with the promise of sex isn't representing Hinduism or what Hinduism says, so you dismissing Hinduism as just like everything else and just as wrong is not providing your son with balance. Your kid isn't learning about Muslim prayer through the half naked girl on the top shelf of the magazine store.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Here's the question for you again - seeing as you didn't answer it.

I thought that was rhetorical, there doesn't seem to be an actual question in there.

Again though you are missing the point. Islam and Hindiuism are not the same religion, pick up a Quaran and a Hindu holy book and read them, they aren't the same.

You are judging them on what they have to offer, from the perspective of a Christian. I can do the same from the perspective of an atheist (nothing). But that isn't the point. What they have to offer is up to you kid, not you.

antiskeptic wrote: »

[/I]Something tangibly different or in essence the same thing. You call.

I already did call, I'm an atheist.

What you should be saying is "Kid, you call"

antiskeptic wrote: »

No they haven't. But it's me whose got to decide whether the choice is a balanced on or not. I get to decide that - they get to from the options presented.

And so far your option is Christianity is right everything else is wrong and all the same. How again is that balanced?

antiskeptic wrote: »

Where is this neutral person and how do they establish their bonefides?

Its your kid and how neutral they are is up to you

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm afraid you don't get around the "no true Christian" problem by stating there is no problem. If Christians are indeed born of God and not made by man then your statistics have nothing to say.

How "born of God" a person is is irrelevant.Remove Christians from the statistics completely and it is still clear that the religion a child is raised in as a huge factor in what religion they claim to be as adults.

I fail to see how you think someone being a true Christian changes that.

antiskeptic

Wicknight wrote: »

Exactly.

Thank you.

To you. It is some what pointless to talk about perspectives and then ignore the only perspective that matters, that of a neutral party (ie your kid).

Who says my kid is a neutral party (if not your perspective). Who says atheism is other than Islam in essence (if not your perspective)

It's my job to provide balanced choice - there is no other perspective I could turn to than mine in assembling that. Per definition.

Yes. And it is not a balance of options for you to raise them saying that Christianity is right and all other religions and view points are all the same and equally wrong.

That isn't "balance". It is dismissive. You kid isn't going to be inclined to explore Hinduism if you telling him there is nothing in it any different to any other religion and it is all wrong.

As mentioned earlier, I'm not under the impression than I'm the only influence in their lives. Nor would I expect my influence to counter the multitude of worldly influences for all that many years. You don't percieve man a sinner. I do.

We're supposing completely different things Wicknight - you just don't take account of that.

I thought that was rhetorical, there doesn't seem to be an actual question in there.

Again though you are missing the point. Islam and Hindiuism are not the same religion, pick up a Quaran and a Hindu holy book and read them, they aren't the same.

You are judging them on what they have to offer, from the perspective of a Christian. I can do the same from the perspective of an atheist (nothing). But that isn't the point. What they have to offer is up to you kid, not you.;

Long before the kid comes near a choice, it has to be established as being a balanced one. We're in the realm of discussing whether the choice is balanced or not - we're not presuming it is and letting the kid at it

From the perspective of an atheist you might see material difference on offer between the religions. And because there is material difference on offer, the different religions constitute different options. IF so the it's fair to give them an equal share at the table of choice.

But that's just a perspective of yours.

Remove the perspective and what's left of this point? I mean, try to frame it without your perspective and you'll find you can't do it.

I already did call, I'm an atheist.

What you should be saying is "Kid, you call"

Religions: materially different or shades of the same thing. You call.

And so far your option is Christianity is right everything else is wrong and all the same. How again is that balanced?

Because the single other option (The World) is going to be saying Christianity is wrong and whatever-part-of-the-World-that-attracts-the-kid is right

Its your kid and how neutral they are is up to you

I don't see my kid as neutral. I see my kid as a sinner.

How "born of God" a person is is irrelevant.Remove Christians from the statistics completely and it is still clear that the religion a child is raised in as a huge factor in what religion they claim to be as adults.

How do you identify a Christian to remove them from the ratings and so discover the same applies to them as to any other religion?

Zombrex

antiskeptic wrote: »

Who says my kid is a neutral party (if not your perspective).

Logic. If you kid is open to all religions and hasn't picked one yet he is neutral.

Again you seem to be putting the cart ahead of the horse here, viewing the fact that you believe Christianity some how effects what choices your son has.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Who says atheism is other than Islam in essence (if not your perspective)

You are going to have to define "in essence".

Islam has a set of claims and doctrine that are unlike other religions. You not believing them doesn't change that.

antiskeptic wrote: »

As mentioned earlier, I'm not under the impression than I'm the only influence in their lives.

You should be under the impression that you are the major significant one.

The idea that your son or daughter will learn about Islam through watching toy commercials because its all the same is rather divorced from reality.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Nor would I expect my influence to counter the multitude of worldly influences for all that many years.

Then surely your children are lost, and this is some what irrelevant?

antiskeptic wrote: »

We're supposing completely different things Wicknight - you just don't take account of that.

I know we are, the issue is that what you are supposing is contradictory in nature.

antiskeptic wrote: »

From the perspective of an atheist you might see material difference on offer between the religions. And because there is material difference on offer, the different religions constitute different options. IF so the it's fair to give them an equal share at the table of choice.

But that's just a perspective of yours.

Perhaps, but it is difficult to believe you are so ignorant of say Islam that you think makes exactly the same claims as Hinduism or Scientology.

If that is the case then this seems down to your ignorance more than anything else.

Have you heard of the Quran, the Islamic holy book?

antiskeptic wrote: »

Religions: materially different or shades of the same thing. You call.

I don't know what either of those things mean ("materially different", or "shades of the same thing".

Religions make different claims as to the nature of reality and mans place in it. These claims contain different details.

Believing that all these claims are the same in detail is just an expression of ignorance. Again have you heard of the holy books of these religions, such as the Qu'ran?

antiskeptic wrote: »

Because the single other option (The World) is going to be saying Christianity is wrong and whatever-part-of-the-World-that-attracts-the-kid is right

Yes but they say it a multiple of different ways and for different reasons. Focusing purely on what they say about Christianity because that is your religion is not balanced.

Pretending that what they say is the same is ignorance.

Again, all other careers other than a doctor involves you not being a doctor. That doesn't mean every other career is the same as any other one.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I don't see my kid as neutral. I see my kid as a sinner.

I don't mean neutral in terms of morality. I mean neutral in that they have not yet picked a religion.

antiskeptic wrote: »

How do you identify a Christian to remove them from the ratings and so discover the same applies to them as to any other religion?

This isn't about religion, it is about how children work. It doesn't matter if what you are telling them is true, or if it is being told to them by a "true" Christian.