WEST CORK RAIL

who the fug

RoyMcC wrote: »

Interesting article here

Maurice McCarthy clearly cites the switch in traffic from rail to road as the reason the rural lines 'died'. Maybe Cork folk like to think it was a Dublin conspiracy Interesting that he believes that, if the Bantry line had been kept going through to 1965 the oil terminal might have saved it.

Complete day dream, it was never going to compete well the car. Most people would have had to drive into town, so you might as well go straight to Cork

goldie fish

I dunno. Have you driven from Cork to Bantry lately? It may as well be on another planet.

gobnaitolunacy

RoyMcC wrote: »

Interesting article here

Maurice McCarthy clearly cites the switch in traffic from rail to road as the reason the rural lines 'died'. Maybe Cork folk like to think it was a Dublin conspiracy Interesting that he believes that, if the Bantry line had been kept going through to 1965 the oil terminal might have saved it.

If I recall correctly, passenger numbers were falling, due to the private car but freight was going well. There were some business interests who were fighting the closure, but would have had to shoulder substantial costs had they gone the whole legal hog vs. CIE and lost. Assuming there were more enlightened people in charge, maybe it could have lasted into the 1970's/80's a la the Youghal branch. Now that the station yard and the first few miles out of Cork are under the South Link and the Elysium (sp.?) and rest sold to or squatted on by landowners we'll never see a 21st Cent Midleton-esque revival.

who the fug

goldie fish wrote: »

I dunno. Have you driven from Cork to Bantry lately? It may as well be on another planet.

Twas ever so.

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

If I recall correctly, passenger numbers were falling, due to the private car but freight was going well. There were some business interests who were fighting the closure, but would have had to shoulder substantial costs had they gone the whole legal hog vs. CIE and lost. Assuming there were more enlightened people in charge, maybe it could have lasted into the 1970's/80's a la the Youghal branch. Now that the station yard and the first few miles out of Cork are under the South Link and the Elysium (sp.?) and rest sold to or squatted on by landowners we'll never see a 21st Cent Midleton-esque revival.

I remember hearing on a Radio program that sugar beet was a big earner from Skib, but I can't see them competing with the roads for general freight for
very long in the seventies.

McCartys point about Gulf Oil is a complete red herring , who in their right mind would bring cargo in to Cork on a ship, truck it to a train, bring it to Bantry and truck it around the slob to load onto a vessel to take out to Whiddy

gobnaitolunacy

who the fug wrote: »

I remember hearing on a Radio program that sugar beet was a big earner from Skib, but I can't see them competing with the roads for general freight for
very long in the seventies.

If you were around in the 70's and 80's the roads were unbelieveably brutal back then. All it would have to do is limp into the late 70's/early 80's on the back of Beet Campaigns and the occasional excursion and like the Youghal branch, it couldn't be encroached on by surrounding landowners, thus in theory, preserving the route for the next 30 or 40 years.

Having said that, in that hypothetical scenario, I doubt that the entire system would have survived. I would think the Baltimore and Courtmac branches would have been lopped off in the meantime.

ofcork

Unforunately alot of the widening of the roads took over alot of the track as well eg clonakilty junction/gaggin.

gobnaitolunacy

who the fug wrote: »

McCartys point about Gulf Oil is a complete red herring , who in their right mind would bring cargo in to Cork on a ship, truck it to a train, bring it to Bantry and truck it around the slob to load onto a vessel to take out to Whiddy

It wasn't McCarthy who made that point in the article. Would make more sense to ship it direct unless there was no facilities for unloading large vessels whilst the place was being built.

The oft quoted tale of the campaigners who came to Dublin by car is also mentioned, whether or not it is true, it makes for a good story.

who the fug

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

It wasn't McCarthy who made that point in the article. Would make more sense to ship it direct unless there was no facilities for unloading large vessels whilst the place was being built.

The oft quoted tale of the campaigners who came to Dublin by car is also mentioned, whether or not it is true, it makes for a good story.

Referred to what was RoyMcC posted

cgcsb

Thread bump. Interesting thread. I disagree with the notion that victorian era railways should be re-opened just for the sake of re-opening them, regardless of how viable the are. That's the kind of thinking that saddled us with the WRC. However there is no reason why we can't have entirely new alignments of railway serving south and west cork.

Cork is far too car dependent for a City of it's size.

For example if there were a line connecting Cork City to Kinsale(desperate traffic even outside of tourist season) via Cork airport with a branch to Carrigaline via Douglas complete with park and rides, that would be a big improvement for transport in metropolitan Cork. I definitely think that a light rail alignment between Ballincollig and Kent needs some serious consideration.

RoyMcC

To make a local rail service viable you'd need to persuade an awful lot of people to leave their cars at home. You'd need to run trains at capacity such as you find with the LUAS. I don't believe Cork has the potential mass of passengers that would tempt any investor.

How the Cobh line remains is a mystery to me.

namloc1980

cgcsb wrote: »

Thread bump. Interesting thread. I disagree with the notion that victorian era railways should be re-opened just for the sake of re-opening them, regardless of how viable the are. That's the kind of thinking that saddled us with the WRC. However there is no reason why we can't have entirely new alignments of railway serving south and west cork.

Cork is far too car dependent for a City of it's size.

For example if there were a line connecting Cork City to Kinsale(desperate traffic even outside of tourist season) via Cork airport with a branch to Carrigaline via Douglas complete with park and rides, that would be a big improvement for transport in metropolitan Cork. I definitely think that a light rail alignment between Ballincollig and Kent needs some serious consideration.

A feasibility study was commissioned a few years ago to examine just those things: an east-west light rail corridor from Ballincollig to Mahon via city centre and Kent, as well as a similar north-south corridor via Airport and Carrigaline.

Neither was found to be feasible. In particular the north south corridor was totally ruled out due to the massive cost and relatively small population densities along the path.

East West corridor was similarly shot down for light rail. The main outcome was that the docklands would need to be significantly developed to have sufficient density to justify light rail.

cgcsb

RoyMcC wrote: »

To make a local rail service viable you'd need to persuade an awful lot of people to leave their cars at home.

Traffic on the south link coupled with a rail service that offers a faster journey than road should provide an incentive.

RoyMcC wrote: »

You'd need to run trains at capacity such as you find with the LUAS.

That's quite incorrect in fact you'll find that in Engineering terms, having a service operating to full capacity is considered to be bad practice, overcrowding on Dublin's luas is a massive problem, which will be partially rectified by the construction of DART underground which will provide relief to the red line.

RoyMcC wrote: »

I don't believe Cork has the potential mass of passengers that would tempt any investor.

There are much smaller cities with far greater suburban rail coverage. See the ongoing investment in the Innsbrucker S-bahn for example.

Suburban Douglas has 25,000

If you take into account that Carrigaline is a de facto commuter town, with a 15,000 pop.

You have the airport with 2.4 million passenger a year

And you have Kinsale with 3,000 and thronged with Traffic in the Summer months.

If you had good park and ride facilities to accommodate outlying areas I think souch a route would at least merit consideration to tackle traffic in Cork.

That being said a decent bus service also wouldn't go a miss.

RoyMcC wrote: »

How the Cobh line remains is a mystery to me.

Between Glouthane and Cobh you have a 1,000 passengers per weekday. Between Glouthane and Kent you have about 2,000 which is about the same as you have going between Cork and Dublin per day.

cgcsb

namloc1980 wrote: »

A feasibility study was commissioned a few years ago to examine just those things: an east-west light rail corridor from Ballincollig to Mahon via city centre and Kent, as well as a similar north-south corridor via Airport and Carrigaline.

Neither was found to be feasible. In particular the north south corridor was totally ruled out due to the massive cost and relatively small population densities along the path.

East West corridor was similarly shot down for light rail. The main outcome was that the docklands would need to be significantly developed to have sufficient density to justify light rail.

Interesting. By chance do you have a link to that study? I'd be interested to see the methodology

whisky_galore

cgcsb wrote: »

Between Glouthane and Cobh you have a 1,000 passengers per weekday. Between Glouthane and Kent you have about 2,000 which is about the same as you have going between Cork and Dublin per day.

Notice the Little Island industrial estates getting quite choked with private cars coming up to 1700 on weekdays, takes them up to 15 mins just to get out onto the road maybe there could be some business for the railway if people could be tempted out of their cars? there's a bit of a trot to LI station though. Someone was advertising a cheap bus connecting the estates and the station, don't know if that's still running.

Dannyboy83

cgcsb wrote: »

Interesting. By chance do you have a link to that study? I'd be interested to see the methodology

I think this is it:
http://www.corkcity.ie/services/roadstransportation/trafficdivision/corkareatransitsystemstudy/CATS%20Study%20Final%20Report%20Feb%202010_opt1.pdf

This is more recent:

PLANS to develop a Luas-type light rail system in Cork have been derailed by the collapse of the Irish economy.
Transport Minister Leo Varadkar has ruled out funding for the light rail system because “sufficient funding” will not be available until 2017 at the earliest.
Minister Varadkar confirmed the project had been effectively shelved in response to a parliamentary question from Fianna Fáil’s finance spokesperson and Cork TD Michael McGrath.
More...The cost of the proposed light rail system linking Cork city centre to Mahon in the east and Ballincollig in the west has been estimated at more than €1 billion.
Following a feasibility study in 2009 it was also proposed that a Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) system be put in place on the same routes which could later be upgraded to light rail.
At an estimated cost of €300 million this proposal has now also been ruled out.
In his response to Deputy McGrath, Minister Varadkar said, “Given the constraints in available funding, sufficient funding will not be available to permit the development of the proposed BRT system in Cork during the period of the new national development plan 2012-2016 which is currently being prepared.”
Instead, Minister Varadkar said that available resources would be concentrated on developing high-quality bus transport routes.

I really like your proposal and I think it could be valuable, but unfortunately I cannot see it happening for probably 2 decades realistically.

I'd imagine they will attempt a BRT system in Cork at some stage before the end of the decade. Then delay for at least another decade before attempting Light Rail.


The last I heard, they don't even have money for the construction of the Ringaskiddy motorway - even though the EU have designated this as vital infrastructure.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/green-light-for-200m-ringaskiddy-motorway-248926.html?fb_action_ids=10152193980618832&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_ref=.Uth1A_nxrYc.like&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582
Plans are being advanced for the creation of a €200m motorway joining Ringaskiddy in east Cork with the Jack Lynch Tunnel, because the EU designated the project as vital infrastructure.

RoyMcC

@cgcsb I would love you to be proved right. I used to hang on the level crossing gates outside Dunmanway and watch the trains pass through with awe. But the reasons for their demise haven't gone away.

I don't know about the engineering issues but surely you'd want your trains to be maximising fare revenue? You never see an empty LUAS. Sure it goes madly the other way at times to the point that it's borderline dangerous. But, even with fare-dodging being (I imagine) rife it seems to do OK financially. I just don't see Cork generating that sort of volume.

Prising people out of their cars is difficult. Sure, the South Ring and Cork generally can be horrible at peak times but - from what I've seen here in Jersey - people will put up with a bit of traffic rather than be converted to public transport.

You surprise me about the Cobh line. Admittedly I've never used it a peak times but have often travelled up and down it in splendid isolation. Does it turn a profit, do you know? Who travels regularly from Glounthaune to Cobh?

Kinsale. In my experience that's no bother until you actually get to the town where it bottlenecks.

Anyway the proposals seem to have been put on ice - thanks Dannyboy83.