Sexual Assault

Sir Oxman

Thaedydal wrote: »

If he is going to do that he should be very careful and make sure there is a witness.

I agree.

KittyeeTrix

gambiaman wrote: »

I think you are perfectly correct to be upset and annoyed by what happened.
IMO, going to the guards or your HR dept is an overreaction - I would have a talk with the woman and make sure she knows she was out of order.

Totally agree with gambiaman. Tell her it upset you and you didn't like it at all but going to HR or the police is IMO taking it a bit too far before you talk to the person in question.
Was it a one off event or has she prior for this??

tinkerbell

OP, you were on a work night out and got assaulted by one of your colleagues. It doesn't matter where you were when it happened, she is still a colleague and you are expected to work with her after this.

Report this at once to HR - what she did was completely unacceptable and inappropriate, and it should never happen again. You are completely within your right to report it to HR.

PS
By the way, HR can be absolutely useless in situations like this so prepare yourself. Have everything written down before you go in and a list of witnesses who will back you up. HR could try to turn this on you, so you need to make sure you're prepared for all that.

SerialComplaint

tinkerbell wrote: »

OP, you were on a work night out and got assaulted by one of your colleagues. It doesn't matter where you were when it happened, she is still a colleague and you are expected to work with her after this.

Report this at once to HR - what she did was completely unacceptable and inappropriate, and it should never happen again. You are completely within your right to report it to HR.
.

What exactly do you expect HR to do?

still annoyed wrote: »

To Serialcomplaint and Sleepy, It wasnt an offical social event with work, just said we would go for a drink as we havent been out in a while. So still unsure about going to hr.

In that case, I think the only reason to go to HR would be to say that you don't want to work with this person again. And I think you could only do this credibly if you had made a formal complaint to the police first.

It's not up to a HR department to police what goes on when people go to the pub.

Nevyn

Right this thread is not for the discussion of what is or not sexual/indecent assault.
The OP has stated they were subject to unwanted physical advances and is looking for help with what to do next.

Any further posts saying he wasn't harrowed or should just get over it will be consider off topic and unhelpful and result in bans.

dellas1979

still annoyed wrote: »

but seriously what pubs have you been in where a man will be on top of you touching you? If it hadnt have been so packed, Im sure a barman/security would have told her to stop.

You see OP, this is where I think you are being very innocent. This happens all the time, like bette said in her post. Exactly what she said.

Why do you think you are any different?

I dont doubt that you didnt like what happened. If it was me and a 50 year old man Id be grossed out too, but I would handle myself and the situation instead of curling into a ball and posting on a forum.

My advice to you if you are that sensitive to these things is to stay away from pubs/clubs. People are drinking and acting out of the ordinary in these places and you cant handle that. If you feel that she molested you in some way, go for it and report her. But I am telling you now, give it a few days and think about this battle you will put on yourself for nothing.

JonathanAnon

Thaedydal wrote: »

Any further posts saying he wasn't harrowed or should just get over it will be consider off topic and unhelpful and result in bans.

Okay, I'm gonna post this at the risk of getting banned... but I think it's important... I've been to a few similar office parties etc etc, where all sorts of extra marital shenanigans go on... So I know the type of thing the OP is talking about...

But I think this is the best piece of advice I've seen on the thread so far...

Report this to HR, she will probably be brought up on her behaviour. If it goes to court do you want your name in the paper as the 24 year old man felt up by some fat drunken lady on a staff night out. Your pride was hurt, you will get over it.

I think you need to ask yourself "why do I want to take action against this woman?"... Is it because:
a) you actually felt she was going to physically harm you or rape you, given that you were in a public place with colleagues, security, and bar staff? And you fear that if you dont "bring her to justice", she may do similar to somebody else?
b) you were embarrassed by what happened and simply want revenge? You were possibly disappointed in yourself that you were not able to lift her off / push her off, and unable to prevent the situation occurring (I say this because you make a big deal about your physical size)....?

If you do go to the guards or HR, will you be happy if this woman is fired or charged and possibly left unemployed, because of her stuipd drunken actions (of which she is probably mortified anyway)? Would you be happy that in the future you would be known as being the litigious kind, the guy who brought a middle aged woman to court for sexual assault... Think about your own reputation and the implications taking such actions may have on you..

I'm not condoning what she did, but I think you need to separate exactly how threatening her behaviour actually WAS, from how you felt because of her behaviour... Once you start the wheels rolling on something like this, there is no going back... My advice would be to let it go.. In a short time it will be forgotten about..

mrpink6789

This happened to me before, an older woman in work constantly after me on work nights out. After about the 3rd incident I said it to her one on one in work, obviously she was very embarassed but was glad I didnt go to HR with it. Nothing has happened since. I wouldnt go to HR if I was you, just creates a mess. Just laugh it off but no harm in saying you were a bit uncomfortable with it to her in work. If it persists then yes get HR involved.

enda1

I wouldn't get HR involved seeing as it happened outside the workplace and workhours. Gardaí are more relevant in this situation.

Jumbo156

1. Report to HR?... What the hell has HR go to do with it. They were in a pub, on a nightout. The Op has said it wasn't an organised night out.

If I meet someone, I work with, by accident, on a Saturday night and make a fool of myself, he/she can report me to HR?, Utter nonsense..

2. Report it to the Gardai. "Sorry Garda, I was with a woman in a pub on Friday night and she sat on my lap and rubbed my chest"...sounds kinda stupid doesn't it.

Will everyone calm down with your, report it to HR, the Gardai.,
OP, although not a nice situation to be in, put it down to experience, and never get into a situation like that again.

LegacyUser

dellas1979 wrote: »

You see OP, this is where I think you are being very innocent. This happens all the time, like bette said in her post. Exactly what she said.

Why do you think you are any different?

I dont doubt that you didnt like what happened. If it was me and a 50 year old man Id be grossed out too, but I would handle myself and the situation instead of curling into a ball and posting on a forum.

My advice to you if you are that sensitive to these things is to stay away from pubs/clubs. People are drinking and acting out of the ordinary in these places and you cant handle that. If you feel that she molested you in some way, go for it and report her. But I am telling you now, give it a few days and think about this battle you will put on yourself for nothing.

Because something happens all the time - doesnt make it right.

Because the OP was touched inappropriately doesnt mean they should they should have to avoid places or their behaviour in any way!!! (its akin to telling women how to dress)

OP you did nothing wrong, she did, I'd be advising you make a formal complaint to HR and ask them to mediate at the very least.

Jumbo156

Thaedydal wrote: »

Right this thread is not for the discussion of what is or not sexual/indecent assault.
The OP has stated they were subject to unwanted physical advances and is looking for help with what to do next.

Any further posts saying he wasn't harrowed or should just get over it will be consider off topic and unhelpful and result in bans.

I disagree Thaedydal...The OP is looking for advice of what to do next. Is chalking it up to experience and moving on, not advice on what to do next?

MagicSean

dellas1979 wrote: »

I would not call what he described as sexual assault. After heavy drinking, she sat on his lap for a minute and made a ejit of herself. Hardly constitutes sexual assault. I think situations like this actually demeans people who have been through an actual sexual assault. His pride is hurt thats all.

He should not be going to pubs where people DRINK and make arses of themselves, with colleagues or otherwise if he is going to loose the head like that.

What exactly do you deem an "actual sexual assault"? Where is the line? If it's not a sexual assault it's still an assault.

MagicSean

Jumbo156 wrote: »

1. Report to HR?... What the hell has HR go to do with it. They were in a pub, on a nightout. The Op has said it wasn't an organised night out.

If I meet someone, I work with, by accident, on a Saturday night and make a fool of myself, he/she can report me to HR?, Utter nonsense..

2. Report it to the Gardai. "Sorry Garda, I was with a woman in a pub on Friday night and she sat on my lap and rubbed my chest"...sounds kinda stupid doesn't it.

Will everyone calm down with your, report it to HR, the Gardai.,
OP, although not a nice situation to be in, put it down to experience, and never get into a situation like that again.

How do you avoid the situation? Not go to pubs anymore?

Jumbo156

k_mac wrote: »

How do you avoid the situation? Not go to pubs anymore?

Don't let drunken women sit on your lap in the first place.

Nevyn

Can we stop with the victim blaming.
The op has every right to go out and not be molested, saying don't go out and don't ear certain clothes is apolgist behaviour for the actions of the woman who was well out of order.

aidan24326

Some of the responses here are typically hysterical.

OP, I wouldn't go to the gardai, as you'll only end up creating hassle for yourself, and though what she did was unacceptable and embarassing, to report it as a sexual assault would be a heavy-handed response imo. I'd speak to her about it, let her know in no uncertain terms that you found her behaviour well out of order and that a repeat performance will not be tolerated so lightly.

She is no doubt embarassed about it now herself and I expect a warning should be enough to ensure there's no repeat. Then if she does carry on like that again she'll have had her warning and at that point you may need to take it further. But I'd give her the benefit of the doubt for now.

fungun

If the whole team are out for a night even if its not an 'official' night out, I believe your HR Dept would be liable for certain things, so I think going to HR is an option for you.

Given the serous nature of the allegation, it is feasible she could lose her job over this so know what you are doing if you go there.

Personally Id have a chat with the woman and describe how you felt and if you didnt feel she was taking you seriously or if she wasnt apologetic about it, then I would consider HR.

Linoge

The amount of bollox advice in this thread is so incredible I had to post. Yes it may have been sexual assault etc. and I'm sure the majority of people in here would love the equality of this woman "getting what she deserves" but lets face it, its not going to happen. If it does come out, and by god it will, you will be even worse for it. Lets face it, you felt (and still feel) more embarrassed than violated and no HR or gardai are going to fight this one for you.

I know you are only 10 stone etc, but you can man up at this stage and take some of dignity back (if you feel you lost some). Tell her you want to speak to her privately and let her have it telling her to stay well clear from you etc.

And really, beware of SOME of the advice you get in here. Some people would love nothing more than you to come back on here and say "I did X and she got fired" or similar, but you need to do what will help you - not satisfy the people of PI. This is your workplace first and foremost and how it will affect your worklife is what you need to be thinking of.

Let it go. You were sat on by a big fat heiffer and everybody was laughing at how horribly drunk and obnoxious this woman was.

EDIT : And Aidan above beat me to almost everything I said.

Elle Collins

still annoyed wrote: »

I dont know what happens in the world that most women experience from time to time. I feel for most women then.

To Thaedyal, you said "brave", I actually dont know if I am brave enough actually go to a gardi station.

Hi OP, you've got loads of advice already so I'll keep it short. Yes you were sexually assaulted, no doubt about that in my mind. Whether you can bring the issue to HR or not is another matter considering it was not an offical night out, and whether or not you report it to the guards is something you still have to work out for yourself.

I have to say though that if every female sexual assault experience of that calibre and nature was reported the guards, well, the guards would have time for little else. This is not to downplay what happened to you; just to put it in perspective. If that was the worst sexual assault I'd ever endured I'd count myself a very lucky woman. BettePorter had a point in her posts, whether or not it rubbed some people up the wrong way.

SerialComplaint

fungun wrote: »

If the whole team are out for a night even if its not an 'official' night out, I believe your HR Dept would be liable for certain things, so I think going to HR is an option for you.

Given the serous nature of the allegation, it is feasible she could lose her job over this so know what you are doing if you go there.

Your belief is wrong. HR is not liable for anything their staff do, outside of working hours and company events.

Any company dumb enough to sack somebody over an event like this would be facing the wrong end of an unfair dismissals case.

magneticimpulse

kinda annoyed wrote: »

Male 24 here. small fello. 5'8, 10st.
Basically in my team in work there is a woman, mid 50s, same height and bout 4st heavier than me....

So the whole team, bout 10 of us were in a pub in town on a night out. the pub is packed. and she is drinking shorts to bate the band, getting drunk quicker than everyone else.
Long story short, later in the evening, all of a sudden she decides to sit on my lap, and keeps putting her hand down my tshirt, saying "ooo youre so cute, I love your hairy chest", she keeps touching me and feeling my body, As you can imagine, other people are in bits laughing at this, I am so embarrassed.
Im struggling to get her off me, and I keep grabbing her hands and telling her to stop, and I kinda get aggressive. But I really cant get her off my lap, and at this stage I in a lot of pain, as shes heavy. Shes thinks its kind of a laugh and keeps saying how cute I am. Then one of the lads grabs her by the shoulder and pulls her off. It probably only lasted a minute. But Ive lost the head, mean while most of the pub as still laughing, and her with a big drunken stupid head on her still saying things to me that makes my skin crawl. I went to the toilet to cool off, came back and grabbed my jacket and left, tried not to make a scene.

A few of my friends agree with me, and say I was right to lose it, and she might have deserved a good hard punch... Ive been just thinking to myself, if roles reversed, eg., a mad drunken 50year old old fella touching a 24yo woman and basically on top of her, with hands all over her. Im sure the fokes in the pub wouldnt be laughing, there would be violence and gardi invovled etc...

What should I do? just calm down, laugh it off.
Go to hr in work, or is that just stupid as it happened outside work?
What can a man do?

As for your roles reversed??? Im female and the same thing happened in a nightclub with my work colleagues. It was this guys 40th birthday, he was the manager of my housemate (we all worked in same company) so I bought him a drink. Before I knew it he was grabbing my crotch and asking me to go outside for 15 mins to have sex with him.

All my colleagues were standing around laughing their heads off and nobody helped me. Luckily somehow he went away. But I can assure you, the exact same thing can happen with roles reversed and everyone laughs. its awful!!!

tinkerbell

SerialComplaint wrote: »

What exactly do you expect HR to do?

Have a word with the woman and tell her that this kind of behaviour is not appropriate?

I can't understand why people can't see wrong with what this woman did. It doesn't matter that they weren't out on an official work event. The OP has to work with this woman on a daily basis. She's after assaulting him on a night out and now he has to look her in the eye every day. It is a work problem if someone you work with assaults you no matter where you are.

LegacyUser

I went with FluttyOrganic1's advise, I didnt go to hr, Im not going to the gardi. I went bananas at her today. she said she was sorry.

Quite a few seem to go on about my size, I only harped on about it because other people did say thats why it happened. She was on top of me, I had two hands free, I could have easily hit her, elbow her, eye gouge her, pull her hair, smash a bottle over her face, anything! BUT I wanted to stay calm. She is a middle aged woman, Imagine how it would look... Woman 53 hospitalised by 24 year old male, I sure my parents would be real proud of me for hitting a 50yo lady. I didnt want to fight.

To dellas, I am well able to fend for myself even though Im small, I am from a pretty rough area of west dublin and am not afraid of a fight or a few slaps or a beating. But you say you would have handled the situation better, How???? Maybe youre like Bruce Lee, I dont know, but it would be normal and socailly acceptable for a woman to hit a man especially if he touched her without consent!
I seem to be nearly on my own here, other than tinkerbell, unreg578, kmac and thaedydal. And many think Im a little fello who has been curling into a ball and crying over the weekend! I am not that sensitive, I am going to get over it, Im ok. I am not that innocent, I am well used to pubs and clubs in ireland and throughout europe. But how can a man defend himself? and dont say "dont put yourself in that position".

To Jumbo156, I dont think it sounds kinda stupid, I disagree.

To aidan, I went with what you said anyway. But you raised a good point. Would she do it again? Im guessing yes (ive worked with her 3years, just my opinion she would)... But if it was the other way around, male touching female, and she went to gardi. Would he be on the sex offenders list? just a little question thats all.

To Linoge, similar to aidan as you say... But why wouldnt she get what she deserves? thats what is annoying me! She sould be in trouble just like a pervy old man should be, but all that happened is the person she touched gave out to her, and told her not to do it again.


To elle collins, yeah I know what you mean.

To serial complaint, you are correct in what you say, but if I did go to the gardi, and she was prosecuted, could they not sack her as she has a crimnal record and is a sexual predator... I know it wont happen, but there is cases where they can sack you for things that happen outside work.

Thats a horrible story magneticimpulse, awful.... Did you go to the gardi?

fungun

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Your belief is wrong. HR is not liable for anything their staff do, outside of working hours and company events.

Any company dumb enough to sack somebody over an event like this would be facing the wrong end of an unfair dismissals case.

You are wrong on 2 counts.

1. If during work there was a team decision to go out as a team and all were invited (as opposed to a small subset of people) this quite possibly legally constitutes a "work related event". (would depend on the details)

2. Secondly note also that workplace harassment can actually happen in a situation which is nothing to do with work, depending on the workplace relationship between yourself and the harasser. If, for instance, she was in any way linked with your performance reviews/promotional prospects, then workplace harassment can happen no matter where or how this happens.



just saw your reply OP - think you handled it well....but hope you impressed on her how seriously you felt about it

Neyite

what she did was wrong, and you were right to call her out on it. she will think twice the next time she thinks its ok to grope a colleague on a night out. even if it stops one more guy from experiencing what you did, its a good thing you did.

i think you handled it with a lot more maturity than this woman seemed to have. fair play, OP.

dellas1979

What the hell are you talking about OP? Bruce Lee? Physical violence? See this is the level you are at...

I'd NEVER advocate sexual assault OR physical violence.

You just seem to rise people.

You went with my advice, and yet you still crapped all over me. Well done. Lucky workmates. Best of luck.

Nevyn

dellas1979 banned for unhelpfull and abusive posting.

SerialComplaint

tinkerbell wrote: »

Have a word with the woman and tell her that this kind of behaviour is not appropriate?

I can't understand why people can't see wrong with what this woman did. It doesn't matter that they weren't out on an official work event. The OP has to work with this woman on a daily basis. She's after assaulting him on a night out and now he has to look her in the eye every day. It is a work problem if someone you work with assaults you no matter where you are.

It is not up to HR to police a non-work related social. What happens when the woman says 'nothing happened' or 'I fell into his lap by accident'. Are HR supposed to start investigating witnesses, taking statements, checking CCTV. They have no powers to investigate anything like this.

Just for the record, I CAN see what is wrong with what this women did. But it is still not HR's job to fix this, regardless of how strongly I feel about it.

If OP did make a formal complaint to the police, then he could certainly ask HR to be kept away from the other party.

annoyed little tiny man wrote: »

To serial complaint, you are correct in what you say, but if I did go to the gardi, and she was prosecuted, could they not sack her as she has a crimnal record and is a sexual predator... I know it wont happen, but there is cases where they can sack you for things that happen outside work.

If somebody was jailed and couldn't do their job, then they might be sacked. If somebody was convicted of something completely incompatible with their job (e.g. sexual assault for a nurse or a teacher), then they might be sacked. If there is something in an employment contract about criminal convictions, then they might lose their job. But there would be no automatic or immediate sacking because of a criminal conviction.

fungun wrote: »

You are wrong on 2 counts.

1. If during work there was a team decision to go out as a team and all were invited (as opposed to a small subset of people) this quite possibly legally constitutes a "work related event". (would depend on the details)

2. Secondly note also that workplace harassment can actually happen in a situation which is nothing to do with work, depending on the workplace relationship between yourself and the harasser. If, for instance, she was in any way linked with your performance reviews/promotional prospects, then workplace harassment can happen no matter where or how this happens.

This is nonsense. You're not doing the OP any favours by giving them bad advice. What on earth is meant by a 'team decision'? Have you ever heard of a 'team decision' about 10 people going to the pub? How could any court decide that a 'team decision' had been made? Is it minuted that a 'team decision' was made? Stop clutching at straws.

fungun wrote: »

just saw your reply OP - think you handled it well....but hope you impressed on her how seriously you felt about it

Fully agree.

magneticimpulse

annoyed little tiny man wrote: »

Thats a horrible story magneticimpulse, awful.... Did you go to the gardi?

No I didnt go to the police. Just deleted him from my Facebook.

Every other week men are grabbing my bum...you get used to being man handled being a woman. Normally just give a dirty look and forget about it.

aidan24326

annoyed little tiny man wrote: »

To aidan, I went with what you said anyway. But you raised a good point. Would she do it again? Im guessing yes (ive worked with her 3years, just my opinion she would)... But if it was the other way around, male touching female, and she went to gardi. Would he be on the sex offenders list? just a little question thats all.

And an important question it is, as there is undoubtedly a double standard in how these sort of incidents are viewed. Man gropes woman he's a sleazy pervert, woman does it it's laughed off. But you did the right thing in any case, it's always better to take a measured response in situations like this, rather than running to the guards and opening a big fat can of worms. Hopefully she'll have been embarassed enough to not do it again.

Taltos

OP

an approach I took was an off the record chat with my direct manager to inform her unofficially what happened and to get her advice.
She suggested HR and was going to back me 100% but to be honest I was uncomfortable with the stigma that would follow.

I am really impressed with you confronting this woman. - wish I had done so - instead I was rude as hell to her, maybe not wise as she was & is a company director.

However - I do think you need to inform your direct manager at least - if only to protect yourself if she lodges a complaint against you for verbal abuse in the workplace - not being dramatic here - but sometimes it is best to plan for the worst...

Best of luck - and don't listen to any of the crap the rest are throwing your way. A comment I got from this woman's team who witnessed what she did to me "you wouldn't be complaining if she was an attractive 20 yr old..." - makes me sick - double standards like that.

Squiggler

magneticimpulse wrote: »

No I didnt go to the police. Just deleted him from my Facebook.

Every other week men are grabbing my bum...you get used to being man handled being a woman. Normally just give a dirty look and forget about it.

Whenever this happens to me I find "accidentally" stamping my foot on his instep, or "reflexively" elbowing him in the solar plexus or stomach, works quite nicely.

It doesn't matter who's doing the groping, it is wrong.

Elle Collins

annoyed little tiny man wrote: »

But if it was the other way around, male touching female, and she went to gardi. Would he be on the sex offenders list? just a little question thats all.

No he wouldn't, unfortunately. A person needs to have been convicted of a serious sexual assault before they make it onto that list, and even in that case they often are only placed on it for a limited time.

Elle Collins

Squiggler wrote: »

Whenever this happens to me I find "accidentally" stamping my foot on his instep, or "reflexively" elbowing him in the solar plexus or stomach, works quite nicely.

It doesn't matter who's doing the groping, it is wrong.

I find myself kicking them in the balls, not that I'm advocating violence or anything!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Very tough one op. You have my absolute sympathies, this has happened to me but not with girls as old as her.

I think you should say it to someone like a department manager informally. Then if someone else says it he/she can have a word with her.

Calling the guards is technically the right thing to do but in reality they would do nothing and your reputation would be completely destroyed at work.

Fair play for confronting her.

The Recliner

Squiggler wrote: »

Whenever this happens to me I find "accidentally" stamping my foot on his instep, or "reflexively" elbowing him in the solar plexus or stomach, works quite nicely.

It doesn't matter who's doing the groping, it is wrong.

Elle Collins wrote: »

I find myself kicking them in the balls, not that I'm advocating violence or anything!

Suggesting violence is against the charter, please don't do it again

Distorted

magneticimpulse wrote: »

No I didnt go to the police. Just deleted him from my Facebook.

Every other week men are grabbing my bum...you get used to being man handled being a woman. Normally just give a dirty look and forget about it.

Same here. Its either my bum or stroking my hair, although a couple of times I've had some big oaf sit on top of me and think its funny. And then theres the sexually explicit offensive comments. Not to mention the continual rubbing up against you in some discos and they won't stop when you tell them to - I don't go to them normally but sometimes you end up there on a night out with friends...I've been followed along a busy city centre street by someone trying to rub up against me and had to take refuge in a women's clothing store...its never ending.

I think the double standards are actually that women are expected to put up with this sort of thing as standard and laugh it off, whereas the attitude is how dare a woman do it to a man, of course its a sexual assault (although there was no sexual element), etc..

If it had happened to me, I'd have laughed it off at the time and got over it by now. Otherwise I'd constantly be running to the guards or HR complaining and getting a reputation for myself as a troublemaker. So all in all, I'm quite surprised the OP is making such a big deal of it. He is clearly upset and angry and I do think its to do with his dignity being affronted. Whether he realises it or not, he makes repeated mention of his size and weight and of the woman's greater size. So while its something most women would have got over quickly, its more of a big deal to him because he is a man, and it affronts his male dignity. Hence it is made out to be a more serious issue than it is.

In a similar situation, but one which involved smutty, sexual comments by a work superior in the course of doing my job, I took him to one side and told him firmly that I found his comments offensive and I would be taking it further if it didn't stop. It did stop, and we worked together without any further problems. I didn't "go bananas" as the OP says he did, I find a calm, reasoned but suitably formal attitude works much better in a workplace setting than an overreaction - after all, you have to work with these people again. Its the same as in school - the "authorities" will step in but generally they would rather not have the hassle and its better to develop a slightly thick skin, a good sense of humour and deal with your own issues, unless they are very serious, or ongoing and preventing you from doing your job.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Distorted wrote: »

Same here. Its either my bum or stroking my hair, although a couple of times I've had some big oaf sit on top of me and think its funny. And then theres the sexually explicit offensive comments. Not to mention the continual rubbing up against you in some discos and they won't stop when you tell them to - I don't go to them normally but sometimes you end up there on a night out with friends...I've been followed along a busy city centre street by someone trying to rub up against me and had to take refuge in a women's clothing store...its never ending.

I think the double standards are actually that women are expected to put up with this sort of thing as standard and laugh it off, whereas the attitude is how dare a woman do it to a man, of course its a sexual assault (although there was no sexual element), etc..

If it had happened to me, I'd have laughed it off at the time and got over it by now. Otherwise I'd constantly be running to the guards or HR complaining and getting a reputation for myself as a troublemaker. So all in all, I'm quite surprised the OP is making such a big deal of it. He is clearly upset and angry and I do think its to do with his dignity being affronted. Whether he realises it or not, he makes repeated mention of his size and weight and of the woman's greater size. So while its something most women would have got over quickly, its more of a big deal to him because he is a man, and it affronts his male dignity. Hence it is made out to be a more serious issue than it is.

In a similar situation, but one which involved smutty, sexual comments by a work superior in the course of doing my job, I took him to one side and told him firmly that I found his comments offensive and I would be taking it further if it didn't stop. It did stop, and we worked together without any further problems. I didn't "go bananas" as the OP says he did, I find a calm, reasoned but suitably formal attitude works much better in a workplace setting than an overreaction - after all, you have to work with these people again. Its the same as in school - the "authorities" will step in but generally they would rather not have the hassle and its better to develop a slightly thick skin, a good sense of humour and deal with your own issues, unless they are very serious, or ongoing and preventing you from doing your job.

Will you get real. Are you actually suggesting that a guy sitting on your lap refusing to get off and rubbing your chest is the same as a guy grabbing your bum in a nightclub?

So all in all, I'm quite surprised the OP is making such a big deal of it. He is clearly upset and angry and I do think its to do with his dignity being affronted. Whether he realises it or not, he makes repeated mention of his size and weight and of the woman's greater size. So while its something most women would have got over quickly, its more of a big deal to him because he is a man, and it affronts his male dignity. Hence it is made out to be a more serious issue than it is.

Now you're having a snide snipe at the OP, making out he's throwing a hissyfit because he looked less of a man? He's already pointed out he could have physically restrained her if neccesary but wanted things to stay calm.

The level of whataboutery in your post is shocking. I don't care how many bad experiences you've had with sleazy men, their actions do not diminish what this fat lout did to the OP

seenitall

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Are you actually suggesting that a guy sitting on your lap refusing to get off and rubbing your chest is the same as a guy grabbing your bum in a nightclub?

I'll answer that: yes, they are both sexual assaults (if that is what you mean by "the same"?). The scale is the only difference that I can see.

Distorted

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Will you get real. Are you actually suggesting that a guy sitting on your lap refusing to get off and rubbing your chest is the same as a guy grabbing your bum in a nightclub?

I think you will find that it is you, not I, who is making that correlation.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Now you're having a snide snipe at the OP, making out he's throwing a hissyfit because he looked less of a man? He's already pointed out he could have physically restrained her if neccesary but wanted things to stay calm.

The level of whataboutery in your post is shocking. I don't care how many bad experiences you've had with sleazy men, their actions do not diminish what this fat lout did to the OP

I deliberately avoided pointless, emotive phrases such as "hissy fit" and "snipe". I have no idea what "whataoutery" means.

To be honest, I'm finding this place increasingly misogynistic. True, I live abroad now and perhaps am surprised when I encounter it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Distorted wrote: »

I think you will find that it is you, not I, who is making that correlation.

The thrust of your post was that he should simply get over it because you regularly get your bum pinched or hair stroked. I think what happened to he OP is a much more serious incident than those, and even if someone disagrees with that, they cannot argue that you being molested means the OP should get over it.

I deliberately avoided pointless, emotive phrases such as "hissy fit" and "snipe". I have no idea what "whataoutery" means.

To be honest, I'm finding this place increasingly misogynistic. True, I live abroad now and perhaps am surprised when I encounter it.

Whether you used the phrase or not, it was a snipe at the OP. You implied he was only upset because it offended his ''male dignity'' as you put it, despite the fact the OP has stated he could have physically got her off, just chose not to.

Whataboutery means to bring up irrelevent arguments to support your position. eg ''well if he's upset about being perved on by some fat woman what about when men pinch my bum every day.''

firstly sorry op that woman was bang out of order and i am glad you had words with her she needs to know its not funny or acceptable to behave like that to anyone.

i am though perturbed by other posters saying that this happens to them often and seem to do little or nothing about it .

I recently had my arse pinched in a crowded bar he thought it was funny also said i should be flattered ??? i politely informed him it wasnt funny nor was i at all flattered .He went pure red when i told him what i thought . Its a cowardly act and far from flattering they do it to embaress you or just to cop a feel both of which is sad.

I think by letting them off you are only allowing them to carry on behaving like this.

Bottle_of_Smoke

seenitall wrote: »

I'll answer that: yes, they are both sexual assaults (if that is what you mean by "the same"?). The scale is the only difference that I can see.

Completely agree they are sexual assaults, scale is precisely the difference I meant which is why I thought it was wrong for that poster to attempt to diminish what the OP went through by bringing them up as a reason he should just get over it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Miguel Quaint Locust wrote: »

I recently had my arse pinched in a crowded bar he thought it was funny also said i should be flattered ??? i politely informed him it wasnt funny nor was i at all flattered .He went pure red when i told him what i thought . Its a cowardly act and far from flattering they do it to embaress you or just to cop a feel both of which is sad.

Well done for challenging him. Such a smug thing to do and made even worse saying you should be flattered

Distorted

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

The thrust of your post was that he should simply get over it because you regularly get your bum pinched or hair stroked. I think what happened to he OP is a much more serious incident than those, and even if someone disagrees with that, they cannot argue that you being molested means the OP should get over it.

Whether you used the phrase or not, it was a snipe at the OP. You implied he was only upset because it offended his ''male dignity'' as you put it, despite the fact the OP has stated he could have physically got her off, just chose not to.

Whataboutery means to bring up irrelevent arguments to support your position. eg ''well if he's upset about being perved on by some fat woman what about when men pinch my bum every day.''

Ok, I'll state what I think more clearly. I think the OP is making too much out of a relatively small incident because he is confusing the relative severity of it with the harm done to his dignity.

It might exacerbate it in his mind but it doesn't exacerbate the relatively minor nature of the incident (and I describe it as "relatively minor" because it did not involve intimate touching of private parts).

And I've had much more offensive incidents that the above I describe, but will not detail further as it is the OP's post and not mine.

Distorted

Miguel Quaint Locust wrote: »

firstly sorry op that woman was bang out of order and i am glad you had words with her she needs to know its not funny or acceptable to behave like that to anyone.

i am though perturbed by other posters saying that this happens to them often and seem to do little or nothing about it .

I recently had my arse pinched in a crowded bar he thought it was funny also said i should be flattered ??? i politely informed him it wasnt funny nor was i at all flattered .He went pure red when i told him what i thought . Its a cowardly act and far from flattering they do it to embaress you or just to cop a feel both of which is sad.

I think by letting them off you are only allowing them to carry on behaving like this.

I didn't say I did nothing about it. I said I didn't consider going to the guards or HR every time something of this nature happened, because I'd never be finished doing so if I went in for every minor incident that offended me. I am actually quite a challenger of the feeler-upper and always of the boob-feeler (who thankfully is rare and IMHO found only in certain night clubs), except the ones that do it so quickly and in a crowd that you cannot safely determine who the culprit was or where they have gone to.

Nevyn

I am locking this thread at this point before it decends into the type of debate more suited to humanities. If the op wishes it re opended they can pm one of the PI mods or start a new thread if they need to.