My Ireland team to face the All Blacks

fullback4glin

toomevara wrote: »

Catch yerselves on lads.

sorry?

thehighground

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Whatever about the stats. Everyone knows O'Gara's defense is pathetic.


Saying that, his defense shouldn't be what we base our selection of 10 on. It should be the fact that he is completely unable to run a back line and can only kick the ball. Which against NZ would be a disaster. He's a good player, but his game plan (we all know what that is, the only style of game play he's competent with at this level) would lead us to disaster against the ABs.

Now you can break out your anorak and explain to me that O'Gara has thrown 77 passes in his last 5 games, and that Sexton has only thrown 69.5. And that O'Gara has thrown 11 passes backwards off his left hand, so therefore he must be a better backline operator than Sexton. The truth is that everyone knows thats rubbish. We didn't play a kicking game against Samoa because it suited the team, we played because it suited ROG. And it was the reason we embarrassed ourselves. This isn't American Football, the stats are meaningless.

I don't agree with you about the gameplan. On saturday, O'Gara started getting the ball wide, but it didn't work mainly because of the handling errors. O'Gara changed his game when he saw the plan wasn't working (without having been told to do so).

I seem to recall seeing both BOD & Luke using their boot more than once! Why were the back three not running the ball? Warwick, Howlett & J Murphy do it a lot for Munster (Warwick sometimes gets caught), so does Nacewa do it for Leinster, so its not exactly new to any of the players on the pitch on Saturday.

irishbucsfan

thehighground wrote: »

I don't agree with you about the gameplan. On saturday, O'Gara started getting the ball wide, but it didn't work mainly because of the handling errors. O'Gara changed his game when he saw the plan wasn't working (without having been told to do so).

I seem to recall seeing both BOD & Luke using their boot more than once! Why were the back three not running the ball? Warwick, Howlett & J Murphy do it a lot for Munster (Warwick sometimes gets caught), so does Nacewa do it for Leinster, so its not exactly new to any of the players on the pitch on Saturday.

The reason it didn't work when we spread the ball wide is because of O'Gara. He takes the ball 10 metres deep standing still and then attempts to spread the ball, giving the centres 0 chance against a quick defense. It just invites handling errors.

Its always been a large hole in O'Gara's game (much more important than his defense IMO).

Regarding the back 3, I'm not saying that our game plan wasn't to kick the ball away pointlessly. I'm saying that O'Gara's selection meant that we were never going to have any other plan of action. Kidney is making big big mistakes with this team at the moment and we're going backwards fast.

TheRiddler

Ireland Squad (32)

Forwards: Tom Court, Cian Healy, Brett Wilkinson, Rory Best, Sean Cronin, John Hayes, Mike Ross, Donncha O’Callaghan, Donnacha Ryan, Mick O’Driscoll, Devin Toner, Stephen Ferris, John Muldoon, David Wallace, Sean O’Brien, Jamie Heaslip, Denis Leamy


Backs: Eoin Reddan, Peter Stringer, Ronan O’Gara, Jonathan Sexton, Andrew Trimble, Luke Fitzgerald, Keith Earls, Gordon D’Arcy, Paddy Wallace, Brian O’Driscoll, Fergus McFadden, Tommy Bowe, Gavin Duffy, Geordan Murphy, Rob Kearney

From the Leinster site, Leinster players in bold. Nice to see Mike Ross in the squad at least. Looks like Kearney will be back. No Cullen see we won't be seeing him. Earls has been released to play for Munster against Aussies but will be back in the squad. Team to be announced on Thursday.

Cpt_Blackbeard

There is zero chance that we will beat the All Blacks and need to play a pretty defensive team to try and minimise the hurt, so i'd like to see:

1. Healy (Court seems a better TH than LH)
2. Cronin (More effective around the field than Best and better with the darts, though his scrummaging may not be as good)
3. Court (Plays well at TH and I can't see Ross being called up as he hasn't played in the AIs so far)
4. DOC (Does all the hard work people seem to ignore, although not playing his best)
5. Cullen (Hopefully he is fit, if not MOD should play as Toner offers nothing around the field and Ryan can't call LineOuts)
6. Leamy (He has been in great form and Ferris will be a great impact sub)
7. Wallace (SOB missed his chance on Saturday)
8. Heaslip (Needs to up his game and play like we know he can or he should be dropped for Ferris and moving Leamy to 8)
9. Stringer (Obvious choice)
10. Sexton (ROG is the form player but Sexton will keep the ball in hand more as we can't gift the NZ back 3 the ball)
11. Fitzgerald (He won't score a try but a good player and Earls hasn't had the game time)
12. D'Arcy (He defends well with BOD, Wallace would be killed in defense even though he is better with ball in hand)
13. BOD (He defends well with D'Arcy, but has lost his pace and I see him more as a defensive player nowadays or even a 12, but that won't happen)
14. Bowe (First name on the sheet along with Stringer)
15. Kearney (We have no real viable options here, he is very suspect in defence same with Murphy though. At least he is good under the highball :rolleyes:)

The bench depends on the starting team but I would have Ryan on the bench as he covers 2nd and back rows and is much more physical than Toner.

I wouldn't pick this team if we had a chance of winning the match, the backs in particular offer little threat going forward other than Bowe. Hopefully with this team we can keep NZ to within 20 points of us.

TheRiddler

What I expect:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Court
4. DOC
5. Toner
6. Ferris
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip
9. Stringer
10. ROG
11. Fitzgerald
12. Darcy
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

What I want:

1. Mike Ross
2. Tony Buckley (oh yes)
3. Glenn Ross
4. POC
5. Toner
6. Ferris
7. SOB
8. Heaslip
9. Strings
10. Sexton
11. Usain Bolt
12. James Fennelly
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Fitzgerald

WallyGUFC

If only Flannery was fit. Best can't throw it straight and Cronin over or under-throws consistently. I'd have ROG instead of Sexton tbh. BOD has been awful imo. Defensively he's been grand but he's not his usual self in attack, going on crazy cross-field runs over and back. But he's a big game player.

We'd be doing well to keep it inside 20 points I think.

thehighground

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The reason it didn't work when we spread the ball wide is because of O'Gara. He takes the ball 10 metres deep standing still and then attempts to spread the ball, giving the centres 0 chance against a quick defense. It just invites handling errors.

Its always been a large hole in O'Gara's game (much more important than his defense IMO).

Regarding the back 3, I'm not saying that our game plan wasn't to kick the ball away pointlessly. I'm saying that O'Gara's selection meant that we were never going to have any other plan of action. Kidney is making big big mistakes with this team at the moment and we're going backwards fast.

So what happened against the Boks then when Sexton was at OH. If the reason for all the handling errors is because of where the OH stands, how come there seemed to be a huge number of handling errors in the Bok game?

irishbucsfan

thehighground wrote: »

So what happened against the Boks then when Sexton was at OH. If the reason for all the handling errors is because of where the OH stands, how come there seemed to be a huge number of handling errors in the Bok game?

thehighground

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You must surely have run out of players to blame for Sexton's woes!

irishbucsfan

thehighground wrote: »

You must surely have run out of players to blame for Sexton's woes!

Haha no. Sexton wasn't fantastic against SA, but he got no opportunity because of Reddan's performance. Stringer will sort that out hopefully.

Sexton has shown his quality and versatility for Ireland.

danthefan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Haha no. Sexton wasn't fantastic against SA, but he got no opportunity because of Reddan's performance. Stringer will sort that out hopefully.

Sexton has shown his quality and versatility for Ireland.

Not to mention our tight 5 being dominated and set piece providing no clean ball at all. Sexton didn't play well but he had no platform to do so. And he didn't make the mistakes that ROG did against Samoa.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

So what happened against the Boks then when Sexton was at OH. If the reason for all the handling errors is because of where the OH stands, how come there seemed to be a huge number of handling errors in the Bok game?

As your such a stats man, Sexton got the ball 20 times over 67 minutes against SA. He was the least of our problems. As a comparison ROG got the ball 10 times over a period of 13 minutes. http://www.espnscrum.com/south-africa-tour-2010/rugby/match/104318.html

irishbucsfan

CouchSmart wrote: »

As your such a stats man, Sexton got the ball 20 times over 67 minutes against SA. He was the least of our problems. As a comparison ROG got the ball 10 times over a period of 13 minutes. http://www.espnscrum.com/south-africa-tour-2010/rugby/match/104318.html

Thats actually quite amazing!

Jaysus why hasn't Kidney tried Sexton with Strings??

danthefan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Thats actually quite amazing!

Jaysus why hasn't Kidney tried Sexton with Strings??

Because at the moment he is doing an extremely poor job.

phog

danthefan wrote: »

Because at the moment he is doing an extremely poor job.

Ah, Sexton isnt doing that bad, give him time.

phog

CouchSmart wrote: »

As your such a stats man, Sexton got the ball 20 times over 67 minutes against SA. He was the least of our problems. As a comparison ROG got the ball 10 times over a period of 13 minutes. http://www.espnscrum.com/south-africa-tour-2010/rugby/match/104318.html

and he still managed to have as many errors as ROG had with less of the ball :eek:

CouchSmart

phog wrote: »

and he still managed to have as many errors as ROG had with less of the ball :eek:

What errors are these?

phog

CouchSmart wrote: »

What errors are these?

Did you see the game? Go back and read the thread on the game, I'm sure they were listed.

phog

CouchSmart wrote: »

As your such a stats man, Sexton got the ball 20 times over 67 minutes against SA. He was the least of our problems. As a comparison ROG got the ball 10 times over a period of 13 minutes. http://www.espnscrum.com/south-africa-tour-2010/rugby/match/104318.html

Could it be that Sexton wasn't trusted with the ball?

CouchSmart

phog wrote: »

Did you see the game? Go back and read the thread on the game, I'm sure they were listed.

Meh, would be nicer if you'd back up your comments with evidence.

CouchSmart

phog wrote: »

Could it be that Sexton wasn't trusted with the ball?

Could be. Poor selection if that was the case, which I doubt.

thehighground

CouchSmart wrote: »

As your such a stats man, Sexton got the ball 20 times over 67 minutes against SA. He was the least of our problems. As a comparison ROG got the ball 10 times over a period of 13 minutes. http://www.espnscrum.com/south-africa-tour-2010/rugby/match/104318.html

Reddan only got his hands on the ball 34 times (1/31/2 - which isn't a lot really).

(kick/pass/run)

Against Racing:
Sexton: 12/18/5 - 35
Reddan: 3/36/4 - 43
Boss: 0/22/4 - 26

Against Saracens
Sexton: 9/14/2 - 25
Reddan: 3/50/0 - 53
Boss: 3/5/0 -

Against Clermont last season
Sexton: 7/13/5 - 25
Reddan: 3/57/3 - 63

ROG against Clermont 2008
ROG: 10/18/5 - 33
O'Leary: 5/30/6 - 41

Not a huge difference really in the amount of times he gets the ball between club & country, bearing in mind he isn't subbed at Leinster.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

Reddan only got his hands on the ball 34 times (1/31/2 - which isn't a lot really).

(kick/pass/run)

Against Racing:
Sexton: 12/18/5 - 35
Reddan: 3/36/4 - 43
Boss: 0/22/4 - 26

Against Saracens
Sexton: 9/14/2 - 25
Reddan: 3/50/0 - 53
Boss: 3/5/0 -

Against Clermont last season
Sexton: 7/13/5 - 25
Reddan: 3/57/3 - 63

ROG against Clermont 2008
ROG: 10/18/5 - 33
O'Leary: 5/30/6 - 41

Not a huge difference really in the amount of times he gets the ball between club & country, bearing in mind he isn't subbed at Leinster.

As I've said before stats don't tell the whole story. You cold get the ball 100 times in a game and if you're going back and under pressure you won't be able to use it.

Whats the stats from 2008 got to do with it? Let's try and keep it current yes?

thehighground

phog wrote: »

Could it be that Sexton wasn't trusted with the ball?

He got a similar amount (bearing in mind he wasn't subbed) last year against SA and I think he also got MOTM

Sexton: (14/14/3) - 31
O'Leary: 13/45/10 - 68.

Stringer was on the bench as well last year and got no time. Must be some problem putting Sexton & Stringer together.

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/87470.html

irishbucsfan

thehighground wrote: »

Reddan only got his hands on the ball 34 times (1/31/2 - which isn't a lot really).

(kick/pass/run)

Against Racing:
Sexton: 12/18/5 - 35
Reddan: 3/36/4 - 43
Boss: 0/22/4 - 26

Against Saracens
Sexton: 9/14/2 - 25
Reddan: 3/50/0 - 53
Boss: 3/5/0 -

Against Clermont last season
Sexton: 7/13/5 - 25
Reddan: 3/57/3 - 63

ROG against Clermont 2008
ROG: 10/18/5 - 33
O'Leary: 5/30/6 - 41

Not a huge difference really in the amount of times he gets the ball between club & country, bearing in mind he isn't subbed at Leinster.

My point is regarding quality, not quantity. It's interesting that you're defending Reddan's performance, but IMO he was brutal.

thehighground

CouchSmart wrote: »

As I've said before stats don't tell the whole story. You cold get the ball 100 times in a game and if you're going back and under pressure you won't be able to use it.

Whats the stats from 2008 got to do with it? Let's try and keep it current yes?

I'm not claiming that stats tell the whole story - they can back up theories or rubbish them though.

I just compared a team that both Sexton & O'Gara had played against to see how different the approach was - i.e., a lot of kicking/running/passing.

Not a huge difference in the amount of handling really.

Reddan & O'Leary are similar as well.

thehighground

irishbucsfan wrote: »

My point is regarding quality, not quantity. It's interesting that you're defending Reddan's performance, but IMO he was brutal.

Where am I defending Reddan - I'm stating a fact that he actually didn't handle the ball a lot (in comparison to O'Leary against the Boks - 68 times to 34)! That is a huge difference.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

I just compared a team that both Sexton & O'Gara had played against to see how different the approach was - i.e., a lot of kicking/running/passing.

Don't think comparing Clermont from 2008 to Clermont from 2010 is very realistic. Clermont would have changed as had the game of rugby.

thehighground

CouchSmart wrote: »

Don't think comparing Clermont from 2008 to Clermont from 2010 is very realistic. Clermont would have changed as had the game of rugby.

But Munster always play the same old kicking game