3hr Oldschool RAW, 15th Nov Discussion thread *SPOILERS*

sky88

the shiek someone getting humbled

CMpunked

irish_stevo815 wrote: »

It's funny how the WWE Title match build up has nothing to do with the actual Title :eek:

it hasnt for about a year.



SHIEK!!!

irish_stevo815

And here we go.................

CMpunked

this is going to be brilliant!

irish_stevo815

Did Shiek just say something about Hulk Hogan??

CMpunked

what was shiek on about hogan?

Headshot

car crash tv at its best

CMpunked

aw there should have been more back and forth between santino and sheik.



I think he said something like "You, punk like hulk hogan"
but then just said his usual "No me, no hulkamania".

Maybe they pulled the plug on him as they didnt know if they could trust him with a mic?

Insect Overlord

They cut his mic and everything

irish_stevo815

CMpunked wrote: »

aw there should have been more back and forth between santino and sheik.



I think he said something like "You, punk like hulk hogan"
but then just said his usual "No me, no hulkamania".

Maybe they pulled the plug on him as they didnt know if they could trust him with a mic?

Yeah it was like he was abruptly cut off. He seemed a bit demented.

I heard something like "I made Hulkamania"

Dean820

Where's Rikishi? Father of the Uso's?

Headshot

He could be sore about the sabo thing

Headshot

Just shows how the tag team division is a mockery

CMpunked

I actually think that was quite a good tag team match.

Super-Rush

CMpunked wrote: »

I actually think that was quite a good tag team match.

Nothing wrong with the match. The result was a joke.

Ridley

super-rush wrote: »

Nothing wrong with the match. The result was a joke.

The Cobra FTW? Or that the only face team left is facing heels for the belts?

Insect Overlord

On old school RAW, he'd have been bleeding after that

Ridley

ARN: Bad Sheamus! That's a bad Sheamus! No! *bops Sheamus on nose with newspaper* Naughty! We don't hit Superstars backstage.

Super-Rush

Ridley wrote: »

The Cobra FTW? Or that the only face team left is facing heels for the belts?

I do enjoy Santino and Kozloff but they are a gimmick tag team and don't need a title shot. The Uso's are supposed to be the up and coming team. It makes a further mockery of the titles.

Dean820

Insect Overlord wrote: »

On old school RAW, he'd have been bleeding after that

He would have been knocked out.

Super-Rush

I'm sorry but that was so funny.

Damn.

Dean820

Pity R-Truth didn't come out as K-Kwik, he's basically the same character anyway I guess. :pac:

Ridley

super-rush wrote: »

I do enjoy Santino and Kozloff but they are a gimmick tag team and don't need a title shot. The Uso's are supposed to be the up and coming team. It makes a further mockery of the titles.

Oh I disagree. It makes sense that the most popular team gets a shot. I just don't like it when pairings happen randomly like or René Dupree and Kenzo Suzuki, or Cody Rhodes and Drew McIntrye, or Cody Rhodes and Hardcore Holly, or Hardcore Holly and Billy Gunn...

At least it was over a couple of weeks that it was established that Marella wanted Koslov as a tag partner.

Although I want Jack Swagger teaming with the Swagger Soaring Eagle.

----

Mae Young breaking the PG rules still won't make up for her performance at the 2000 Royal Rumble, giving birth to a hand or the bronco busters.

Dean820

Mae Young is hilarious. I can't believe she called them sluts, rofl.

starviewadams

Mae Young calling Lay-Cool sluts,priceless!

Insect Overlord

It's Good Ol' JR!

\o/

Dean820

Vince McMahon in Cole's ear egging him on to insult JR.

Super-Rush

Theres a lot of real heat there. JR's Twitter will be interesting later.

Insect Overlord

Ah, so I'm not just imagining the tension there...

Bard

Nice little plug there for http://www.jrsbarbq.com/

Degag

I imagine there isn't heat between JR and Cole though? Cole only doing what he's told to?

Bard

Pretty terrible show tonight in fairness. Only watching it in the background while I work on stuff.

GTR63

Pros:
Danielson vs Swagger although Cole's very counterproductive commentary was a example of the problems wwe have now.
Melina's Skin tight Dress & Eve Torres cut top.(both looked very,very hot).
Mae Young insulting Laycool was the only entertaining thing Laycool ever did.
Cons:
Everything else really.

Big Daddy Cool

well i predicted it could be one of the worst raw's ever and personally it didnt disappoint, apart from the opening segment with old intro music, wwf banners, the king in his old gear, i taught this is good hope it continues, but after that the whole show turned into a complete waste of time, it did get better with cole on commentary when JR came out, no tension there at all, it was just cole (via vince in his ear) hamming up his heel commentary character which he gets better and better at as the weeks go by, and JR just ignoring him just made the whole segment better. but overall a very disappointing show

Super-Rush

I was disappointed over all with it tbh.

Pros.
Production was good.
Swagger v DBD
Piper.
JR.
Ron Simmons.

Cons.
The other 2 and a half hours.

Lord TSC

I'll be honest. I quite enjoyed the show. Not in a way where I'd want to see it repeated again ever, but as a nice once off nostalgia trip. I ended up watching most of the show with a massive big smile on my face for most of it and it was full of guilty little pleasures that made me lol in a lot of places.

It's a shame the DB vs Swagger match seemed to end a tad abruptly since the kick to the head felt more like a set up to the LaBell Lock rather than a finish in and of itself. Santino/Koslov getting a title shot is awesome and they'll be a good face team to put over Nexus in the match. Seeing Del Rio is always a highlight. And Mae Young was classic as always...well, as usual. There are the occasional blips <_<

Machismo Fan

I really enjoyed Swagger/Bryan and it was refreshing to hear a commentator try to put over a serious, competitive match featuring two of the brightest stars in the company but unfortunately they ruined it with Cole's extremely counter-productive commentary. It infuriated me last night more than it normally does, it just doesn't achieve anything and it kills any credibility Cole had. He goes from burying Bryan, Swagger and JR to trying to sell the PPV thirty seconds later and then back to unreasonable Cole just after that. It's stupid.

Piper was awesome, but I hated the FU on Barrett. That should've been the culmination of the entire storyline at Survivor Series but instead they've given it away on Raw and lost buys for their PPV.

parker kent

Machismo Fan wrote: »

I really enjoyed Swagger/Bryan and it was refreshing to hear a commentator try to put over a serious, competitive match featuring two of the brightest stars in the company but unfortunately they ruined it with Cole's extremely counter-productive commentary. It infuriated me last night more than it normally does, it just doesn't achieve anything and it kills any credibility Cole had. He goes from burying Bryan, Swagger and JR to trying to sell the PPV thirty seconds later and then back to unreasonable Cole just after that. It's stupid.

Piper was awesome, but I hated the FU on Barrett. That should've been the culmination of the entire storyline at Survivor Series but instead they've given it away on Raw and lost buys for their PPV.

Is Cole's commentary any less productive than when the colour commentator is the heel? Jerry Lawler buried the faces for a long, long time. Cole is doing the same.

Every thing he says about Danielson helps build his popularity. The fans don't like Cole, so they will like whoever he does not like. And vice-versa. It seems to be building towards some sort of conclusion where Cole is no longer on commentary. Especially given how much he loves mentioning that he is the voice of the WWE. You are supposed to be infuriated by Cole, so what they are doing is working.

Not sure I agree that they have given away the culmination of the Barrett/Cena feud either. The series should not end at Survivor Series, that would be far, far too premature. I imagine something big will happen at Survivor Series that moves the CeNexus story further. Unless of course, they do their usual and blow a feud really early for a cheap payoff.

Edit: Vince should re-hire Roddy Piper and have him on commentary or even as a GM. He has a magnificent ability to sell a match or feud.

Lord TSC

Piper was good last night but let's not get ahead of ourselves. The last once or twice he's been on, I have felt he was dire and kept losing his train of thought. One good night doesn't change that.

As for Cole, my main problem comes in two parts. I don't think there's been any one thing he's done to define himself as a heel. Sure, he's cheering for The Miz and every now and again seems to side with the bad guy but he's not cemented himself as a baddie. On top of that, he's not playing a typical heel commentator in that he's not just loving the heels. He's tearing apart the faces. And not in a way a heel should but by pointing out genuine weaknesses and flaws for all to see. Take the Hart Dynasty for example. When he tore into them a while back for being dull and bland, the thing is he was right. They are. And once it's pointed out, there's no reason to cheer for them any more.

By pointing out the flaws, he destroy's the face's character, instead of just helping to put people over or help stories along.

Machismo Fan

parker kent wrote: »

Is Cole's commentary any less productive than when the colour commentator is the heel? Jerry Lawler buried the faces for a long, long time. Cole is doing the same.

Every thing he says about Danielson helps build his popularity. The fans don't like Cole, so they will like whoever he does not like. And vice-versa. It seems to be building towards some sort of conclusion where Cole is no longer on commentary. Especially given how much he loves mentioning that he is the voice of the WWE. You are supposed to be infuriated by Cole, so what they are doing is working.

Not sure I agree that they have given away the culmination of the Barrett/Cena feud either. The series should not end at Survivor Series, that would be far, far too premature. I imagine something big will happen at Survivor Series that moves the CeNexus story further. Unless of course, they do their usual and blow a feud really early for a cheap payoff.

Edit: Vince should re-hire Roddy Piper and have him on commentary or even as a GM. He has a magnificent ability to sell a match or feud.

Cole's commentary is much less productive. The play-by-play guy is supposed to be the guy that builds up the feuds, explains the story of the matches and push PPV's. Cole's heel persona overshadows all of that. It does nothing but undermine what's happening in the ring and kills all credibility he has. I don't think it's any coincidence that PPV buyrates have shown further decline since Cole turned. It's not the determining factor but it certainly doesn't help.

Cnea attacking Barrett should've been the culmination of this storyline. They should've built the anticipation since HIAC with Barrett constantly demeaning Cena until at Survivor Series (as Cena was constantly saying he would) Cena should just beat the hell out of Barrett. And if you built it well enough and made it clear that Cena was going to do it at Survivor Series (which they did) - then people would've bought the show to see it but they gave all that away last night and last month.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Piper was good last night but let's not get ahead of ourselves. The last once or twice he's been on, I have felt he was dire and kept losing his train of thought. One good night doesn't change that.

As for Cole, my main problem comes in two parts. I don't think there's been any one thing he's done to define himself as a heel. Sure, he's cheering for The Miz and every now and again seems to side with the bad guy but he's not cemented himself as a baddie. On top of that, he's not playing a typical heel commentator in that he's not just loving the heels. He's tearing apart the faces. And not in a way a heel should but by pointing out genuine weaknesses and flaws for all to see. Take the Hart Dynasty for example. When he tore into them a while back for being dull and bland, the thing is he was right. They are. And once it's pointed out, there's no reason to cheer for them any more.

By pointing out the flaws, he destroy's the face's character, instead of just helping to put people over or help stories along.

Exactly, how are the Harts expected to connect with the audience if he's constantly pointing out how boring they are? Or even take Truth's new music - as terrible as it is, it has no chance of ever getting over if Cole is saying how bad it is every week.

On Piper, the last couple of times he's been used in an important role (last night and his promo with Jericho before WM 25) he's hit it out of the park and delivered two of the most memorable promo's ever and last night did a brilliant job selling the Survivor Series ME. Give him purpose and focus and he is just amazing.

parker kent

The emails from the GM and Cole's demeanor are that of somebody turning heel. He has been getting increasingly heelish for a long time. The Hart Dynasty stuff had truth in it but I always feel that the best angles in wrestling have elements of the truth. Plus they had probably intended breaking them up, so it was an allowed target.

But there is no way that the stuff he says about Danielson (especially on this Raw) can be considered anything but outright heel lines. The lines about him never getting a date and being a nerd are classic heel lines. Danielson represents the everyman and most of the WWE fans, so those lines are cheap shots at the people watching at home. Same way CM Punk takes cheap shots at the fans. I think they are building Cole up as an obnoxious, self-obsessed idiot. The way he is getting increasingly pompous suggest a fall will eventually come his way.

Machismo Fan

parker kent wrote: »

The emails from the GM and Cole's demeanor are that of somebody turning heel. He has been getting increasingly heelish for a long time. The Hart Dynasty stuff had truth in it but I always feel that the best angles in wrestling have elements of the truth. Plus they had probably intended breaking them up, so it was an allowed target.

But there is no way that the stuff he says about Danielson (especially on this Raw) can be considered anything but outright heel lines. The lines about him never getting a date and being a nerd are classic heel lines. Danielson represents the everyman and most of the WWE fans, so those lines are cheap shots at the people watching at home. Same way CM Punk takes cheap shots at the fans. I think they are building Cole up as an obnoxious, self-obsessed idiot. The way he is getting increasingly pompous suggest a fall will eventually come his way.

But it does nothing but hurt business and hurt talent. The audience has to trust the play-by-play guy so when they say something it can be believed. Cole flops between incredibly annoying and normal commentator so often that it damages business. Just look at last night, Cole went from heel to plugging the PPV and back to heel again within a two minute period. It's ridiculous and it doesn't work. Play-by-play commentators have never been 'characters' before for a reason, it doesn't work.

Lord TSC

On Piper, the last couple of times he's been used in an important role (last night and his promo with Jericho before WM 25) he's hit it out of the park and delivered two of the most memorable promo's ever and last night did a brilliant job selling the Survivor Series ME. Give him purpose and focus and he is just amazing.

I'm struggling to remember those moments tbh. Not saying they weren't great, they probably were. But my memories are being clouded by what I thought was a really bad and rambling promo with Vince at MGS where he seemed to make little sense. He was amazing last night though. It's just a shame that his passionate speech about what the title means is overshadowed by the fact the title is rarely even the central focus of most of the matches its in any more (see: Orton vs Barrett, which has Cena as the central point).

The emails from the GM and Cole's demeanor are that of somebody turning heel. He has been getting increasingly heelish for a long time. The Hart Dynasty stuff had truth in it but I always feel that the best angles in wrestling have elements of the truth. Plus they had probably intended breaking them up, so it was an allowed target.

But there is no way that the stuff he says about Danielson (especially on this Raw) can be considered anything but outright heel lines. The lines about him never getting a date and being a nerd are classic heel lines. Danielson represents the everyman and most of the WWE fans, so those lines are cheap shots at the people watching at home. Same way CM Punk takes cheap shots at the fans. I think they are building Cole up as an obnoxious, self-obsessed idiot. The way he is getting increasingly pompous suggest a fall will eventually come his way.

Here's the thing though. A heel commentator should be a colour man, not play-by-play, and should point out what he considers flaws but what everyone else considers good characteristics.

It's why Cole's commentary works for Bryan. As you said, the date and nerd lines are great cause they insult Bryan but also set him up as the everyman. It helps us relate and rally behind him and thus, Cole is doing a great job.

Unfortunatly, he kills every other face act he attacks. Pointing out someone is boring is never going to help them get over, nor is pointing out that Truth's song sucks. Yes, these facts are true but we're trying to ignore them in order to enjoy the show. There's a fine line between building and burying people, and for the most part, Cole is burying them.

On top of that then is his inconsistance in character. I worried when Bryan first showed up on Raw what people who had not seen NXT must have thought. Here was the straight laced Cole absolutly ripping into a guy and there was no reason not to believe the commentary since there had been no hint of a turn before that. It only really started working once his adoration of The Miz started shining through in the story and Cole became a fanboy, because up until that, he had done nothing else heelish other than act a bit weird.


On another point, why with the Hart split is the highflyer being set up as the bad guy and the power house as the face? Surely both would work better in the opposite roles given their strenghts? <_<

EDIT: ALSO, wtf at ending the Goldust/DiBiase feud in a comedy skit backstage <_<

irish_stevo815

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

On another point, why with the Hart split is the highflyer being set up as the bad guy and the power house as the face? Surely both would work better in the opposite roles given their strenghts? <_<

Wasn't Tyson Kidd a heel back near the end of WWE's ECW??

Machismo Fan

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I'm struggling to remember those moments tbh. Not saying they weren't great, they probably were. But my memories are being clouded by what I thought was a really bad and rambling promo with Vince at MGS where he seemed to make little sense. He was amazing last night though. It's just a shame that his passionate speech about what the title means is overshadowed by the fact the title is rarely even the central focus of most of the matches its in any more (see: Orton vs Barrett, which has Cena as the central point).

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8f7fy_chris-jericho-attacks-roddy-piper-2_lifestyle

This was the one I was referring to earlier. I'll admit his guest host night was bad but he wasn't really in a position those times where he as important and meaningful to the show. Piper was just fantastic last night, not only did he deliver one hell of a promo but at no stage did he overshadow the other three or take focus off Survivor Series - it was just an incredible job.

Machismo Fan

http://www.pwinsider.com/ViewArticle.php?id=52775

The 11/15 edition Old School Raw did a 3.1 rating for the entire show and a 3.2 rating in the show's normal timeslot. The show did hours of 2.74, 3.2 and 3.22. They did 4,527,000 viewers overall and 4,758,000 viewers in the normal time slot.

CMpunked

Machismo Fan wrote: »

http://www.pwinsider.com/ViewArticle.php?id=52775

dam. guess i was wrong about the 4.0 rating.
thats unfortunate, i assumed the high publicity over it in the states would help.

Dean820

CMpunked wrote: »

dam. guess i was wrong about the 4.0 rating.
thats unfortunate, i assumed the high publicity over it in the states would help.

(chuckles)

Nah, I was wrong too. I think I predicted a 3.4-3.5.

Loughc

Both Piper and JR were so good, they haven't missed a beat, man do I miss JR on play by play

jaykhunter

Dean820 wrote: »

(chuckles) Nah, I was wrong too. I think I predicted a 3.4-3.5.

the first hour does worse but i'm surprised the 2nd and 3rd hours didn't get ~3.4.

Well the show was a success even if it wasn't watch by that many. Although they really could've gotten everything done in 2 hours.

Highlight of the nights were the opening segment (nostalgia WOO!), JR calling spoogy-DBvsSwagger and Piper's excellent promo. Loved the ref's oldschool get up and wigs. Brilliant! The rest was forgettable.