Huge waste of money by University

Millicent

bigpink wrote: »

If taxpayers arent paying for it let them chant away,people can do what they like when they pay for it,id tell them myself go for it:)

That is a sad, sad point of view. Seriously, I'm actually a little depressed for this thread.

KingMambo26

Let's abolish Culture in this country until we can all afford new Mercs again! Down with this sort of pointless thing!

ClutchIt

bigpink wrote: »

Id rate business alot more than a chanting course
Music to any normal person is hobby/past time shur if my dad is out of work next year he should go to a chanting course come get real

You're taking the piss are you? You did business and are now UNEMPLOYED! Hahahahahahaha

bigpink

ClutchIt wrote: »

You're taking the piss are you? You did business and are now UNEMPLOYED! Hahahahahahaha

Im not unemployed i was searching for extra part time work

Yes i did 2 years of business and i didnt feel it was going anywhere.If i do go back id do something with accounting and at least ud have a better chance of a job in that area than chanting

Millicent

jimthemental wrote: »

I wouldn't see it necessarily as pointless just because some people are opposed but the wage here does not match the job. Even if this is a profitable department they could be more efficient and profitable if they did not throw money away like this.

You're saying €40,000 for a lecturer is not proportionate? For a lecturer in a university, it's actually pretty low. Average salary was in the mid 60s a couple of years ago. That's not taking into account the more competitive pay in some more "esteemed" colleges, where lecturers could fairly reasonably expect a salary in the 80,000 range.

bigpink

ClutchIt wrote: »

You're taking the piss are you? You did business and are now UNEMPLOYED! Hahahahahahaha[/QUOT

Yeah i am taking the piss,a chanting course of use to my dad if his job goes.....

Millicent

bigpink wrote: »

Yeah i am taking the piss,a chanting course of use to my dad if his job goes.....

I'm sorry, but has your Dad any interest in music? Why is the country's education system predicated on what your Dad would or would not do in the event of him losing his job? Is your Dad a government minister?

bigpink

Millicent wrote: »

That is a sad, sad point of view. Seriously, I'm actually a little depressed for this thread.

How is that sad?
How depressed do you think 1000's of people with kids and houses feel with no jobs etc?Aw the poor chanters will help them through im sure

bigpink

Millicent wrote: »

bigpink wrote: »

I'm sorry, but has your Dad any interest in music? Why is the country's education system predicated on what your Dad would or would not do in the event of him losing his job? Is your Dad a government minister?

Yeah my Dad listens to alot of music but that aint going to pay the bills.

No it is not it was an opinion this thread
No he is not a minister

bigpink

Millicent wrote: »

bigpink wrote: »

I'm sorry, but has your Dad any interest in music? Why is the country's education system predicated on what your Dad would or would not do in the event of him losing his job? Is your Dad a government minister?

Have you done the chanting course?

Millicent

bigpink wrote: »

How is that sad?
How depressed do you think 1000's of people with kids and houses feel with no jobs etc?Aw the poor chanters will help them through im sure

I can't keep talking to you because I think I could be banned if I said what I thought here. Evidently, you don't take anyone's views on-board as evidenced by the fact that refuse to acknowledge the point I and others have repeatedly made about the non-monetary value of music and chant. Try considering a viewpoint outside of your own life.

jimthemental

Millicent wrote: »

You're saying €40,000 for a lecturer is not proportionate? For a lecturer in a university, it's actually pretty low. Average salary was in the mid 60s a couple of years ago. That's not taking into account the more competitive pay in some more "esteemed" colleges, where lecturers could fairly reasonably expect a salary in the 80,000 range.

I know but I still have a feeling that a Professor in chemistry or physics is going to be more useful to more students and possibly bring in a fairly large wedge too. Of course on the other hand I feel that the majority of these people are overpaid. Another point is that most of these people are teaching our best and brightest and yet most have no formal training in how to educate. I understand this is getting off topic and I'm taking attention away from chanting but I think they should just cut either the cost or the position and move on to sorting some of the important issues in our third level system.

spinandscribble

stupid thread is stupid. Begrudging is a fine thing isn't it? Really shows true colours. Lol at the special needs cut music comment. Would op prefer we put them to work in a sweat shop to help make money? I don't think much tax will come from sweat shop wages...

Millicent

bigpink wrote: »

Have you done the chanting course?

I didn't go to UL but study of Gregorian chant was first and second year stuff for my music degree. We learned the writing and history of it, rather than that and the performance. It is one of the founding disciplines of modern music. You're throwing stones at something you haven't the first clue about.

bigpink

So cuting music therapy for kids that benefit from it is ok?But having chanting courses for adults is better

Moist Bread

bigpink wrote: »

Yeah my Dad listens to alot of music but that aint going to pay the bills.

No it is not it was an opinion this thread
No he is not a minister

If he played music in a band and got gigs, then he might pay the bills. If he did a course on music he might make a few bob teaching music too. Even teach some chanting grinds in his spare time - there's good money in that, I hear.

highlydebased

Sure with your attitude we may aswell cut all the courses, sure what good are degrees in music, science, business etc -.- better off have school leavers on the dole?

bigpink

Millicent wrote: »

I can't keep talking to you because I think I could be banned if I said what I thought here. Evidently, you don't take anyone's views on-board as evidenced by the fact that refuse to acknowledge the point I and others have repeatedly made about the non-monetary value of music and chant. Try considering a viewpoint outside of your own life.

Say what you too or pm me it
I see the non monetary value,i like music but dont expect taxpayers to pay for me to study it
Try considering a viewpoint of people that would work at any job these days

gbee

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Could also say the same about music and art or any performing art, sure lets just abolish it all :rolleyes:

In a University context, I'd agree.

Millicent

jimthemental wrote: »

I know but I still have a feeling that a Professor in chemistry or physics is going to be more useful to more students and possibly bring in a fairly large wedge too. Of course on the other hand I feel that the majority of these people are overpaid. Another point is that most of these people are teaching our best and brightest and yet most have no formal training in how to educate. I understand this is getting off topic and I'm taking attention away from chanting but I think they should just cut either the cost or the position and move on to sorting some of the important issues in our third level system.

I'll agree that lecturers here are overpaid, no question. I heard of some on higher than the 80,000 I mentioned. The candidate for this job though is required to have experience teaching both chorally and at third level. They also need a whole lot more besides. I don't think 40-50,000 is as overpaid as many, many others around the country.

highlydebased

Furthermore, the post is looking for a lecturer for a masters course, for which students pay fees, so not really funded by the taxpayer...

studiorat

bigpink wrote: »

So please tell what this chanting course does for this country?Are you making a living from music?Isnt artists very low tax?

That's a myth, Musicians pay the same tax as everybody else.

That's a good job for a music teacher somewhere. I work in a similar place and now is a pretty good time to be working in education imo.

I agree it is kind of depressing that there seems to be people who can't see beyond accountancy and business as a career. What did the people who studied business and economics every do for the country? :pac:

Anyway teaching music is much more important than teaching friggin economics or some boring sh1te like that.

ClutchIt

bigpink wrote: »

Id rate business alot more than a chanting course
Music to any normal person is hobby/past time shur if my dad is out of work next year he should go to a chanting course come get real

I don't think anyone would recommend doing a chanting course if they were looking to gain employment from it. If they were looking at it as an academic excercise then it would be more suitable, as you would learn about the first type of melodic music (not rythm based, like drumming) in the world.

Do doctors need to know physics to perform their jobs? No. However they are all taught it as it is important to understand the fundamentals of why things happen. This is a basis for not just cutting chanting adrift from the rest of the world and abolishing any teaching of it. Oh our country is broke? Well then should we just leave someone else pay for the teaching of this subject, or should we actually have some pride in the culture of this country?

bigpink

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Sure with your attitude we may aswell cut all the courses, sure what good are degrees in music, science, business etc -.- better off have school leavers on the dole?

Science,business with some tuning and cutting,id leave alone but chanting im sorry people should have to pay for that themselves

I did 2 years of business and being honest excpet 2 subjects but wassnt great thats why i left and to work also
If i had to pay a fee id prob wouldnt have gone to college till after working for a few years

Millicent

bigpink wrote: »

Say what you too or pm me it
I see the non monetary value,i like music but dont expect taxpayers to pay for me to study it
Try considering a viewpoint of people that would work at any job these days

I won't, I don't believe in being rude so I'll refrain. And you're making a lot of presumptions in this thread. Why would I not be considering a viewpoint of working people these days by virtue of my argument here? I'm sure someone unemployed with the relevant qualifications would love this job.

I also note that there is a Sports job advertised on jobs.ie for around the same salary. Why have you no issue with that?

spinandscribble

bigpink wrote: »

So cuting music therapy for kids that benefit from it is ok?But having chanting courses for adults is better

obvious troll is obvious. Your idea to get rid of music/art therapy not mine bucko.

bigpink

Millicent wrote: »

I won't, I don't believe in being rude so I'll refrain. And you're making a lot of presumptions in this thread. Why would I not be considering a viewpoint of working people these days by virtue of my argument here? I'm sure someone unemployed with the relevant qualifications would love this job.

I also note that there is a Sports job advertised on jobs.ie for around the same salary. Why have you no issue with that?

No go on say it..
I never said your not but you said my viewpoint is limited so im suggesting you see a viewpoint aswell
Shur nothing stoping you starting a thread on it if you think its a waste

bigpink

spinandscribble wrote: »

obvious troll is obvious. Your idea to get rid of music/art therapy not mine bucko.

Not my idea plenty of cuts for special needs kids

Gregorian chant is wonderful

Millicent

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Furthermore, the post is looking for a lecturer for a masters course, for which students pay fees, so not really funded by the taxpayer...

Completely missed that! If that course has even 20 people at €4,500 (the lower end of the Master's scale -- no price listed on UL website), there's 50,000 left over after paying that lecturer.

Millicent

bigpink wrote: »

No go on say it..
I never said your not but you said my viewpoint is limited so im suggesting you see a viewpoint aswell
Shur nothing stoping you starting a thread on it if you think its a waste

You have presumed throughout this thread that I and others are upper-class snobs. No apology after that. You have presumed that I can't consider the viewpoints of those working. Wrong again and no apology. You have refused to consider that art and music can generate income, even though you have been twice called on that. I would posit that I'm not the one that can't see any other viewpoints here.

bigpink

Millicent wrote: »

Completely missed that! If that course has even 20 people at €4,500 (the lower end of the Master's scale -- no price listed on UL website), there's 50,000 left over after paying that lecturer.

Well if U.l can confirm that zero taxpayers money is spent on it,then ive no problem with it:) everyones happy

JonJoeDali

If UL was a private institution, more power to them. But the fact is that UL are pretty much 100% state funded. Whilst I disagree with a lot of the stuff being said about the arts on this thread, I think that if you're going to remain 100% funded by the State, when told to jump you should ask "how high?". If UL made steps towards making themselves more independent, high level intellectual pursuits can be justified. As it is, UL is not a university AFAIC - they're a glorified polytechnic and should focus on training monkeys for the dwindling multinational interests in the area.

spinandscribble

bigpink wrote: »

Not my idea plenty of cuts for special needs kids

Getting mad at the arts sector for the public cuts that affect special needs kids is pretty wacky. The arts sector is suffering too and the way UL decide to structure their course and heaven forbid, pay people for their expertise has nothing to do with it. And I know plenty of UL Music therapy grads (who needed their music degree before getting qualified) working with special needs kids so it comes full circle in the end anyway. We have enough law/business grads out of work so by your logic we should cut those courses too?

bigpink

Millicent wrote: »

You have presumed throughout this thread that I and others are upper-class snobs. No apology after that. You have presumed that I can't consider the viewpoints of those working. Wrong again and no apology. You have refused to consider that art and music can generate income, even though you have been twice called on that. I would posit that I'm not the one that can't see any other viewpoints here.

Never called you a upper class snob,i said it feels like your looking down at people in hard times while defending a chanting course

Im sure art and music has an income no doubt but its very niche

Told you if no taxpayers money is wasted on it that is fine

bigpink

spinandscribble wrote: »

Getting mad at the arts sector for the public cuts that affect special needs kids is pretty wacky. The arts sector is suffering too and the way UL decide to structure their course and heaven forbid, pay people for their expertise has nothing to do with it. And I know plenty of UL Music therapy grads (who needed their music degree before getting qualified) working with special needs kids so it comes full circle in the end anyway. We have enough law/business grads out of work so by your logic we should cut those courses too?

Well hopfully they use music for kids but google a bit u'll find stories of cuts in this sector which are wrong but not chanting

Moist Bread

Serious post: This thread is pretty redundant and is just going around in circles at this stage.

spinandscribble

bigpink wrote: »

Never called you a upper class snob,i said it feels like your looking down at people in hard times while defending a chanting course

Im sure art and music has an income no doubt but its very niche

Told you if no taxpayers money is wasted on it that is fine

I think you'll find it's you looking down on others calling peoples courses a "waste". Millicent hasn't "looked down" on anyone and i challenge you to point out one area he/she did.

bigpink

So im 100% wrong?
Anyway we could put up a poll about it?

spinandscribble

Moist Bread wrote: »

Serious post: This thread is pretty redundant and is just going around in circles at this stage.

agreed. *out*

jimthemental

Millicent wrote: »

Completely missed that! If that course has even 20 people at €4,500 (the lower end of the Master's scale -- no price listed on UL website), there's 50,000 left over after paying that lecturer.

Feck it I'm convinced now. Still think that over all the standard of lecturers is poor though and not worth the money they get.

Millicent

bigpink wrote: »

Never called you a upper class snob,i said it feels like your looking down at people in hard times while defending a chanting course

Back that up with a direct quote to prove your case or retract it. Just because someone defends an art, does not mean they have to look down their nose at anyone and it's bloody insulting to suggest it.

bigpink wrote: »

Im sure art and music has an income no doubt but its very niche

Told you if no taxpayers money is wasted on it that is fine

So what if the income is niche? It's still an income. And you can't pick and choose courses that deserve taxes and those that don't like that. As I asked you, what's the difference between that and a sports' lecturer?

The tax input may be an investment initially, but how do you know it won't reap financial dividends?

bigpink

spinandscribble wrote: »

I think you'll find it's you looking down on others calling peoples courses a "waste". Millicent hasn't "looked down" on anyone and i challenge you to point out one area he/she did.

Hes defending a chanting course while the country is in hard times and 1000's out of work.
I wouldnt knock anyones interests/hobbies but taxpayers shouldnt have to pay for it

Millicent

jimthemental wrote: »

Feck it I'm convinced now. Still think that over all the standard of lecturers is poor though and not worth the money they get.

No argument here. I had a pretty mixed bag of lecturers through BA and MA and it's irritating to think how much some of them got paid for effectively just showing up.

Universities are centres of academia not job training centres. If you're concerned about practical applications of courses go look at FAS, not UL.

JonJoeDali

bluewolf wrote: »

Universities are centres of academia not job training centres.

UL is a job training centre by all accounts.

spinandscribble

bigpink wrote: »

Hes defending a chanting course while the country is in hard times and 1000's out of work.
I wouldnt knock anyones interests/hobbies but taxpayers shouldnt have to pay for it

You really need to get a better hold on the definition of "looking down". *leaving thread for good, I've to get ready for my waste of time day*

Kintarō Hattori

Ooh this thread is brilliant reading but I have work to do. I can understand why some folk would see the Arts as a waste of money but they simply aren't. It's all too long to go into detail now anywho. I have to go and make money for my bosses!

bigpink

Millicent wrote: »

Back that up with a direct quote to prove your case or retract it. Just because someone defends an art, does not mean they have to look down their nose at anyone and it's bloody insulting to suggest it.



So what if the income is niche? It's still an income. And you can't pick and choose courses that deserve taxes and those that don't like that. As I asked you, what's the difference between that and a sports' lecturer?

The tax input may be an investment initially, but how do you know it won't reap financial dividends?

I said its feels like you are
Your more on the side of a chanting course than normal people looking for any job they can get
Well if there training to be a p.e teacher that would be fine but im sure theres plenty of waste there too

Millicent

bigpink wrote: »

Hes defending a chanting course while the country is in hard times and 1000's out of work.
I wouldnt knock anyones interests/hobbies but taxpayers shouldnt have to pay for it

She, thanks. How is that insulting anyone? My mother/boyfriend/some friends/other family are unemployed and have no problem with the course I did. Can't see them objecting to this one either. Why do you seem to think you speak for every unemployed person in the country? That's fairly arrogant.

And stop calling it a hobby. It's not for a lot of people but again, just something else you refuse to consider.