Speed cameras in Ireland - a guide

GM228

Alan_007_ wrote: »

punisher5112 wrote: »

lamb stew wrote: »

Just wondering what the story is with the on board cameras in unmarked/marked garda cars. I know they can catch for speed, insurance tax etc via ANPR. But my question is does anyone know how they catch for speed. My mate thinks they catch cars travelling either in front or or behind the garda car. But Lets say if one of those cars were pulled in stopped and a car over the speed limit (not necessarily me:D) drove past them. can they catch?, if so would they pull you over or can they send it via the post etc, or do they have to pull u over?

You can be caught going away from or coming towards.

They will pull you over.

Are you sure that they have to pull you over?

As the ANPR records the evidence in relation to the speeding the Gardaí do not need to pull you over in this instance, but generally they will. In relation to the OPs question, the ANPR can only detect speed from vehicles in front of the Garda car.

The Gardaí only need to pull you over when using hand held speed guns.

Alan_007_

GM228 wrote: »

As the ANPR records the evidence in relation to the speeding the Gardaí do not need to pull you over in this instance, but generally they will. In relation to the OPs question, the ANPR can only detect speed from vehicles in front of the Garda car.

The Gardaí only need to pull you over when using hand held speed guns.

Oh ok that's grand thanks!

The rear of his car was facing me, so I'd say I'm grand. Don't think I was speeding anyway, but got a bit of a fright when I saw the car!

blackwhite

GM228 wrote: »

As the ANPR records the evidence in relation to the speeding the Gardaí do not need to pull you over in this instance, but generally they will. In relation to the OPs question, the ANPR can only detect speed from vehicles in front of the Garda car.

The Gardaí only need to pull you over when using hand held speed guns.

In practice any garda that detects speeding from anpr will either pull you over, or do nothing.

If they don't stop someone, but raise a FCPN afterwards, they'll face a few questions from their super - namely what if that driver continued on and caused an accident, and also how can you possibly identify the driver (which speed vans normally capture in their photo).

I don't think I've ever heard of ANPR detected speeding being penalised without a traffic stop also occurring

DanWall

blackwhite wrote: »

In practice any garda that detects speeding from anpr will either pull you over, or do nothing.

If they don't stop someone, but raise a FCPN afterwards, they'll face a few questions from their super - namely what if that driver continued on and caused an accident, and also how can you possibly identify the driver (which speed vans normally capture in their photo).

I don't think I've ever heard of ANPR detected speeding being penalised without a traffic stop also occurring

The Garda car would have to be check calibrated before they can stop you for speed because tyre wear can alter the calibration

blackwhite

DanWall wrote: »

The Garda car would have to be check calibrated before they can stop you for speed because tyre wear can alter the calibration

There's actually no requirement in Irish legislation to prove that the speed detection equipment was properly calibrated.

Rubberchikken

i can't see the harm in 'deception and nasty tricks'. how are they going to get anyone otherwise. the minute there's a garda car around, traffic slows to speed limit and below. suddenly there are many law abiding drivers on the roads.



speeding is speeding, there is no justification for it.

no wonder i have no sympathy when i read of yet another crash that kills/maims. people who drive are responsible for their actions. laws are there for a reason. limit is a limit not a target and not there just for the poor fools who do obey them.

i wish the go safe vans didn't have to be visible. how many more clowns they'd catch then.

khamilto

Rubberchikken wrote: »

i can't see the harm in 'deception and nasty tricks'. how are they going to get anyone otherwise. the minute there's a garda car around, traffic slows to speed limit and below. suddenly there are many law abiding drivers on the roads.



speeding is speeding, there is no justification for it.

no wonder i have no sympathy when i read of yet another crash that kills/maims. people who drive are responsible for their actions. laws are there for a reason. limit is a limit not a target and not there just for the poor fools who do obey them.

i wish the go safe vans didn't have to be visible. how many more clowns they'd catch then.

Excess speed over the speed limit was found to be a factor in only a small minority of vehicular accidents resulting in death.

Excess speed for the conditions (without exceeding the speed limit) were found to be a factor in far more.

I'm sorry if you like a black and white world devoid of complexity, unfortunately that isn't the world we live in.

Please don't preach when you are woefully ignorant of the topic you are preaching about.

OldMrBrennan83

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_Kaiser_

Patww79 wrote: »

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In my opinion, anyone who sees things that black and white behind the wheel of a car is a worse driver than those they're complaining about.

The sheer number of random variables the average driver encounters when on the road means that you ALWAYS need to be evaluating and re-evaluating not just your own behavior, but anticipating that of others, and adjusting accordingly.

Sometimes that'll mean you're under the limit, sometimes over it, but what's important is whether it's appropriate for the conditions.

OldMrBrennan83

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ED E

Have to agree with Pat here. If you're able to adjust for road conditions, traffic et al then you can limit yourself to the speed limit too.

khamilto

Patww79 wrote: »

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God forbid we use statistics and evidence when setting policy or making an argument :rolleyes:

Speeding is speeding and walking is walking, yet again you're making faux-profound statements that are meaningful only to unimaginative gob****es.

OldMrBrennan83

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Odyssey 2005

Cops had a speed check as you exit the tunnel in limericks today heading towards Shannon. Wonder how many ppl have had accidents there.:) Pure revenue exercise.

highdef

khamilto wrote: »

Excess speed over the speed limit was found to be a factor in only a small minority of vehicular accidents resulting in death.

Excess speed for the conditions (without exceeding the speed limit) were found to be a factor in far more.

I'm sorry if you like a black and white world devoid of complexity, unfortunately that isn't the world we live in.

Please don't preach when you are woefully ignorant of the topic you are preaching about.

Assuming you have a driver's licence, that privilege also means that you agree to adhere to the rules of the road. There are many roads where I think the limit is way too low however that gives me no right to drive faster than the posted speed limits. I can't make up my own rules and regulations simply because I don't agree with them. I just accept them fully. If I decide that I personally think that I should be able to drive above the posted speed limits or that I should be able to drive in a bus lane because my personal beliefs are that I think traffic will flow better.... Or whatever.... Then I should hand back my licence because I am then ruling myself by my own rules and have no right to be in possession of a driver's licence.

khamilto

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I take it you don't drive at all? Or take the bus?

If you do, you're a hypocrite. ALL LIVES MATTER after all, and by getting in any kind of vehicle you are putting those lives at risk. Aren't lives in the lower percentage brackets worth as much? I look forward to your posts in the future on life in Ireland where the only means of transport is your own two feet and a bicycle. I'm sure it will be a riveting read, fully of depth and subtlety and nuance.

@Highdef - where did I ever advocate that people break the speed limit? Or state that I did? The most I would ever do is go 2-3 km/h over on the Motorway and I'm far more likely to be doing under it with cruise control on. Just because I advocate against speed cameras, the emphasis on speeding enforcement over other kinds of bad driving behaviour, or the arbitrary nature of speed limits that aren't based on any kind of factual basis - doesn't mean I'm stating people can break the law willy nilly. To frame the argument as such (as Patww79 seems incapable of doing otherwise) is a textbook straw man fallacy.

However, have you ever jaywalked? Paid cash in hand to a tradesman or not checked if they're registered for VAT? Burned non-smokeless coal in a smokeless area? There are countless laws that I am sure you break on a regular basis, as do we all. Why are you on a high horse and pontificating loudly about speeding?

ironclaw

Folks, take the handbags off the thread. The whole point of this thread is to educate people about how they may be caught. At least people are armed with some sense about how the systems are measuring their speed, what they do with that info or how they act on it, I couldn't care less.

Not directly speed van related, but hopefully a stance and a bit of common sense will prevail perhaps, going forward?


http://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/05/02/4139294-judge-says-drivers-caught-going-a-few-kilometres-over-speed-limit-should-not-be-prosecuted/


(Paraphrased)

A judge has said that drivers who are a few kilometres over the speed limit should not be prosecuted... A Dundalk man had been clocked driving at 60km per hour in a 50 zone... Striking out the summons, Judge Dunne said that his was a court of law but it was also a court of justice and the particular driver was "only a few kilometres over."

highdef

20% over is quite a fair bit, considering the drivers speedo was probably reading a few KMPH again over 60. A 50 limit usually means that it's a built up/urban area and therefore there are many distractions/obstacles/pedestrians etc around. In these kind of situations, hitting a pedestrian at 60 versus 50 can very easily be the difference between life of death.

Having said that, if the driver has no other convictions for speeding or bad driving, then it would hopefully be a wake up call for the the future and his or her common sense will prevail.

highdef

highdef wrote: »

20% over is quite a fair bit, considering the drivers speedo was probably reading a few KMPH again over 60. A 50 limit usually means that it's a built up/urban area and therefore there are many distractions/obstacles/pedestrians etc around. In these kind of situations, hitting a pedestrian at 60 versus 50 can very easily be the difference between life of death.

Having said that, if the driver has no other convictions for speeding or bad driving, then it would hopefully be a wake up call for the the future and his or her common sense will prevail.

Judge took that into consideration according to the article.

He added that if the driving had taken place in a housing estate it would be a different matter.

highdef

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Judge took that into consideration according to the article.

Apologies, I didn't read the full article, just the quoted part. Sounds like a fair judge!

lamb stew

GM228 wrote: »

As the ANPR records the evidence in relation to the speeding the Gardaí do not need to pull you over in this instance, but generally they will. In relation to the OPs question, the ANPR can only detect speed from vehicles in front of the Garda car.

The Gardaí only need to pull you over when using hand held speed guns.

But does the garda car have to be travelling behind the car for it to catch cars in front of them using ANPR, or can the car be stationary

lamb stew

lamb stew wrote: »

But does the garda car have to be travelling behind the car for it to catch cars in front of them using ANPR, or can the car be stationary

I've obviously missed the discussion in the thread in regards to ANPR, but I don't believe a speeding ticket can be issued based on ANPR use?

As far as I know, if you want to use ANPR it's just recording the speed the Garda car is travelling at (much like a dash cam?). So in order for a Garda to show that you're over the limit, they would need to pace you for a little while to demonstrate your speed?

But i believe they would have to do you for careless or dangerous driving? I don't think they can say you did X speed and issue a speeding ticket for it? Could be wrong of course.

ironclaw

lamb stew wrote: »

But does the garda car have to be travelling behind the car for it to catch cars in front of them using ANPR, or can the car be stationary

Some Garda cars, and I'm told its a very low number, are equipped with ANPR plus K band radar for measuring speed (The system is known as 'ClearTone'). They can measure a car in front of their car, either while the Garda car is stationery or moving.

A Garda will pull you to issue a ticket, they won't use it issue a ticket retrospectively. As was mentioned before, too much red tape to not pull someone over for 5 mins and have a word. Imagine the outcry if a ticket was issued but the same car was involved in a fatality a few km's up the road? I've heard anecdotally that some Gardai show motorists their dangerous / speed driving on the in-car video itself. It would also double as evidence in proceedings related to dangerous driving.

GM228

lamb stew wrote: »

But does the garda car have to be travelling behind the car for it to catch cars in front of them using ANPR, or can the car be stationary

Both vehicles must be moving.

ironclaw wrote: »

Some Garda cars, and I'm told its a very low number, are equipped with ANPR plus K band radar for measuring speed (The system is known as 'ClearTone'). They can measure a car in front of their car, either while the Garda car is stationery or moving.

A Garda will pull you to issue a ticket, they won't use it issue a ticket retrospectively. As was mentioned before, too much red tape to not pull someone over for 5 mins and have a word. Imagine the outcry if a ticket was issued but the same car was involved in a fatality a few km's up the road? I've heard anecdotally that some Gardai show motorists their dangerous / speed driving on the in-car video itself. It would also double as evidence in proceedings related to dangerous driving.

All ANPR fitted vehicles (which is about 150 traffic and non-traffic vehicles except the i30s) are fitted with the Cleartone system provided by Cleartone Telecoms PLC.

Cleartone is not in addition to the ANPR, it is the ANPR system and all ANPR Cleartone systems have integrated Puma SE6 DOT speed measuring devices.

The Cleartone system replaced the old VASCAR system about 7 years ago.

robbie99

ironclaw wrote: »

Some Garda cars, and I'm told its a very low number, are equipped with ANPR plus K band radar for measuring speed (The system is known as 'ClearTone'). They can measure a car in front of their car, either while the Garda car is stationery or moving.

A Garda will pull you to issue a ticket, they won't use it issue a ticket retrospectively. As was mentioned before, too much red tape to not pull someone over for 5 mins and have a word. Imagine the outcry if a ticket was issued but the same car was involved in a fatality a few km's up the road? I've heard anecdotally that some Gardai show motorists their dangerous / speed driving on the in-car video itself. It would also double as evidence in proceedings related to dangerous driving.

I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned here yet, but there was an article in the Examiner last weekend, which I didn't read closely but the gist of it was that Gardai are withdrawing hundreds of prosecutions based on ANPR evidence, including speeding offences, on the advice of the AG because there's no basis in Irish law to prosecute based on ANPR evidence. They gave an example of not being able to prosecute drivers for crossing continuous white lines while overtaking, even though it was recorded on video. Gardai can still stop drivers after their license number has been flagged and check to see if the motor tax disc is in date.

GM228

robbie99 wrote: »

I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned here yet, but there was an article in the Examiner last weekend, which I didn't read closely but the gist of it was that Gardai are withdrawing hundreds of prosecutions based on ANPR evidence, including speeding offences, on the advice of the AG because there's no basis in Irish law to prosecute based on ANPR evidence. They gave an example of not being able to prosecute drivers for crossing continuous white lines while overtaking, even though it was recorded on video. Gardai can still stop drivers after their license number has been flagged and check to see if the motor tax disc is in date.

You may have that the wrong way around.

The only issue with ANPR to arise to date was actually in relation to motor tax detections as ANPR legislation does not cover offences outside of the Road Traffic Acts - motor tax offences come under the Finance Acts.

In 2014 an pplication for leave to apply for judicial review on the use of ANPR for a motor tax conviction was sought by a motorist convicted for such, he bypassed the Circuit Court appeal mechanism and tried the judicial review route, the application was refused by the High Court.

Using ANPR as evidence for speeding, crossing white lines etc is legislated for under S81 of the Road Traffic Act 2010 and this has been held on many occassions by the courts.

KOR101

Is this heading out way.......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/05/british-motorists-continent-face-640-speeding-fines-saturday/

GM228

KOR101 wrote: »

Is this heading out way.......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/05/british-motorists-continent-face-640-speeding-fines-saturday/

Deadline for Ireland to implement is tomorrow.

robbie99

GM228 wrote: »

You may have that the wrong way around.

The only issue with ANPR to arise to date was actually in relation to motor tax detections as ANPR legislation does not cover offences outside of the Road Traffic Acts - motor tax offences come under the Finance Acts.

In 2014 an pplication for leave to apply for judicial review on the use of ANPR for a motor tax conviction was sought by a motorist convicted for such, he bypassed the Circuit Court appeal mechanism and tried the judicial review route, the application was refused by the High Court.

Using ANPR as evidence for speeding, crossing white lines etc is legislated for under S81 of the Road Traffic Act 2010 and this has been held on many occassions by the courts.

The article was actually in the Sunday Business Post, but you need a subscription to view it online - https://www.businesspost.ie/news/prosecutions-using-number-plate-recognition-system-void-386451

I'm pretty sure anpr can't be used anymore for prosecuting speeding offences. Hopefully someone here will have a subscription to confirm.