Brian Cowen lost his marbles?

smokin ace

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Incorrect.



Firstly : The then Taoiseach rubbished the warnings, giving less informed people some misdirected peace of mind.

Secondly : Some people did what you said above.

I turned down a loan that was twice the size of what I could afford. I have NEVER lied about my income and have NOT gone back to the bank for more.


And what of the people who didn't view it as a party and didn't think it would last forever ? Your phrase blames those who did, which appears fair enough, but since you earlier suggested that this was "everyone" you have negated your point by being incorrect earlier.

why is this incorrect

but people had there own choice to decide for themselves if it was rubbish or not

well good for you as you realised that you could not afford to get such unrealistic amounts of cash knowing you could not pay it back but many thousands of people did not realise what you did

i for one knew it would not last and the bubble had to burst so i did not join the party and get into debt up to my ears like i said before many people knew it was not going to last but still decided to get mental amounts of money from the banks not thinking of the future
everyone is to blame as the people of this country let this happen and that includes me and you because we did not try and do anything about it but now me and you and all our friends and family will have to pay for it

Liam Byrne

smokin ace wrote: »

ieveryone is to blame as the people of this country let this happen and that includes me and you because we did not try and do anything about it but now me and you and all our friends and family will have to pay for it

How do you know that I "did not try to do anything about it" ?

You can't lay blame on me and then spout rubbish like that - you haven't a clue what I did or didn't do! :mad:

You made claims earlier about "everyone" and were proven wrong; please don't backpedal having been shown up on that and make more claims about other people when you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

BeeDI

BeeDI wrote: »

Don't any single one of us forget, that we kept putting FF back in power, election after election, for decade now. We are culpable as a nation of people.

have you seen the poll in Donegal South West??

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1117/breaking48.html

there is no hope until we change these peoples minds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

smokin ace

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How do you know that I "did not try to do anything about it" ?

You can't lay blame on me and then spout rubbish like that - you haven't a clue what I did or didn't do! :mad:

You made claims earlier about "everyone" and were proven wrong; please don't backpedal having been shown up on that and make more claims about other people when you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

well what ever you were doing clearly did not succeed

Scofflaw

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How do you know that I "did not try to do anything about it" ?

You can't lay blame on me and then spout rubbish like that - you haven't a clue what I did or didn't do! :mad:

You made claims earlier about "everyone" and were proven wrong; please don't backpedal having been shown up on that and make more claims about other people when you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Liam, if you don't stop fighting with everyone who uses the word "we" or "our" when it comes to national problems, I will really have no choice but to ban you for persistent thread derailment and monomania.

Give. It. A. Rest.

moderately,
Scofflaw

dixiefly

Interesting comparison between Cowen and Angela Merkel in todays Indo. Well worth reading.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/thomas-molloy-gulf-between-cowen-and-merkel-not-easily-bridged-2423739.html?service=Print

Independent.ie
Thomas Molloy: Gulf between Cowen and Merkel not easily bridged
By Thomas Molloy
Wednesday November 17 2010

IN times of crisis, personality, instinct and personal history matter. Brian Cowen and Angela Merkel, the two people at the centre of this week's drama, are divided by a gulf in belief and upbringing that is almost impossible to bridge.

It goes a long way to explaining why the leaders of two long-term allies are so unable to find common ground.

Merkel is the daughter of a Lutheran pastor who was discriminated against by the authorities for her father's religious beliefs. She trained as a scientist and then became a dissident, fighting the system in East Germany when few thought the communist government would ever fall.

She then fought the backwoodsmen within Germany's conservative CDU party and became her country's first woman leader and first East German leader.

Every turn in Merkel's life has taught her to believe in her own instincts, distrust received wisdom and to fight injustice. The received wisdom said the Cold War would continue indefinitely. The received wisdom said no woman and no East German could lead Germany. The received wisdom said that Germany was the sick man of Europe and was doomed to stagnation and decline.

Cowen's life experience has been very different. He grew up in a midlands pub rather than an East German vicarage, the son of a politician who was part of the governing elite. After attending one of the most expensive private schools in the country, he happily slipped into politics and the law where he was seen as a safe pair of hands who could steady a rocking boat.

Cowen is the consummate insider who spent his formative years in the comfort of the Dail while Merkel is an outsider who spent her formative years dodging the KGB. He is an instinctive conservative whose legal training and Catholic beliefs give him an exaggerated respect for the rule of law and the rules of finance.

....

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Laminations

smokin ace wrote: »

why is this incorrect

but people had there own choice to decide for themselves if it was rubbish or not

Of course people have a choice to believe their government or not but there is a trust there and we should be able to believe our government.

If a man goes to his doctor for reassurance about a pain in his chest and his doctor tells him it is heart burn but two months later he dies of cancer, who do you hold responsible? The doctor for incompetence and/or mistruths or the man for being so silly as to actually trust his doctor and not go get multiple opinions (all of which of course, according to your logic, he'd be naive to trust). People were fed bullsh1t, yes more shame them for believing it all but their is an expectancy there that you can believe your government. We need that expectancy.

This government mismanaged the economy and lied to the electorate. Now you may expect the electorate to be very clued in and politically aware, questioning every move their elected representatives make, but thats fairytale stuff. Reality is people elect a government so they don't have to worry about these things, they entrust these individuals with looking after national issues. They betrayed our trust (and if you cant trust your own government, kiss goodbye to democracy). They need to be severely punished for bringing politics into disrepute. We have to be able to trust our government again, and so we need a new government pronto quick. The markets have to be able to trust our government again. Having a credible trustworthy government is important if we wanna drag ourselves out of this. And any greedy individuals who bought multiple homes will be held accountable by their creditors, we are responsible for holding the government to account - its become so obvious now that it is not, and never was heart burn that was the ill of this country, it was cancer, so we cant trust this government.

Monty Burnz

Scofflaw wrote: »

Liam, if you don't stop fighting with everyone who uses the word "we" or "our" when it comes to national problems, I will really have no choice but to ban you for persistent thread derailment and monomania.

Give. It. A. Rest.

moderately,
Scofflaw

I think it is valid though when someone claims 'we all went mad', 'we all spent too much' etc. We all didn't. Probably a majority did, but an awful lot of people didn't. It seems that there is a campaign to create a narrative that everybody lost the head, and the feeble minded and those with a vested interest (of whatever type) are quick to accept and propagate it. Even our friend Smokin Ace says he wasn't fooled and didn't go mad, and the very next sentence he tells us that everyone did.

I think it's important to call 'bull****' on this nonsense before it gains any more traction in the popular imagination.

Liam Byrne

Scofflaw wrote: »

Liam, if you don't stop fighting with everyone who uses the word "we" or "our" when it comes to national problems, I will really have no choice but to ban you for persistent thread derailment and monomania.

Give. It. A. Rest.

moderately,
Scofflaw

I'm sorry, but why, exactly ?

Surely it would be more neutral and more appropriate to pull people up on misuse of those misleading words ?

Why ban someone who's merely trying to get people to state actual facts and let those who are trying to create a misleading "colloquial" use off scot-free ?

I'll acknowledge the above and lay off a little where possible, but in return I would like to see a reciprocal arrangement by boards mods where those who use such misleading phrases as justification are pulled up on it.

Also - they're not using the words to describe "national problems", they're using them to allocate blame to one of the causes of national problems. We (collectively) have a problem; we, however, didn't cause it. If someone uses it in the former meaning (which you alluded to in your post) then I have no problem. If someone uses it in the latter meaning, it doesn't relate to what you posted, and is misleading.

After all, I'm not the one misrepresenting the facts through careless (or deliberately misleading) use of language.

virmilitaris

RockinRolla wrote: »

Hes a loose cannon

Like McBain ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgMqc-eSrzQ

[MOD]Ask yourself - is this a post that contributes to political discussion, or is it a piece of silly sophomore humour? That question is rhetorical, by the way.[/MOD]

Scofflaw

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm sorry, but why, exactly ?

Surely it would be more neutral and more appropriate to pull people up on misuse of those misleading words ?

Why ban someone who's merely trying to get people to state actual facts and let those who are trying to create a misleading "colloquial" use off scot-free ?

I'll acknowledge the above and lay off a little where possible, but in return I would like to see a reciprocal arrangement by boards mods where those who use such misleading phrases as justification are pulled up on it.

After all, I'm not the one misrepresenting the facts through careless (or deliberately misleading) use of language.

I don't care what the reason is - I only care that you repeatedly derail threads into personal battles with other posters.

If you want to discuss this further, it has to go off thread.

moderately,
Scofflaw

smokin ace

Laminations wrote: »

Of course people have a choice to believe their government or not but there is a trust there and we should be able to believe our government.

If a man goes to his doctor for reassurance about a pain in his chest and his doctor tells him it is heart burn but two months later he dies of cancer, who do you hold responsible? The doctor for incompetence and/or mistruths or the man for being so silly as to actually trust his doctor and not go get multiple opinions (all of which of course, according to your logic, he'd be naive to trust). People were fed bullsh1t, yes more shame them for believing it all but their is an expectancy there that you can believe your government. We need that expectancy.

This government mismanaged the economy and lied to the electorate. Now you may expect the electorate to be very clued in and politically aware, questioning every move their elected representatives make, but thats fairytale stuff. Reality is people elect a government so they don't have to worry about these things, they entrust these individuals with looking after national issues. They betrayed our trust (and if you cant trust your own government, kiss goodbye to democracy). They need to be severely punished for bringing politics into disrepute. We have to be able to trust our government again, and so we need a new government pronto quick. The markets have to be able to trust our government again. Having a credible trustworthy government is important if we wanna drag ourselves out of this. And any greedy individuals who bought multiple homes will be held accountable by their creditors, we are responsible for holding the government to account - its become so obvious now that it is not, and never was heart burn that was the ill of this country, it was cancer, so we cant trust this government.

i fully agree with some of your points but look back at all the so called dig outs and the Political corruption and greed in the government in the good times and they were still voted back into power so someone had to vote them back in and it was not the english french or germans(no offence to any of these)

we turned a blind eye to all of it even back in the party times when bertie was at the fore front and us as a nation could have changed it way back then knowing of all the waste of money and corruption that was going on but we decided not to because the country was awash with money the banks were giving anyone money talking up peoples income to get more of a loan
people getting loans for way over priced houses two cars on the drive expensive holidays the government is not to blame for this it was the peoples choice to sign the dotted line

some people did not decide to get get up to there ears in debt and i was one of them along with a lot of other people here and that was our choice not to do so

i personally believe cowan was shafted with the job as bertie ran for the hills when he knew what was coming down the line and the damage was already done at that stage i know cowan was in finance and knew the numbers but i believe he did not know who bad the banks were correct me if i am wrong but was david drumm not fiddling anglos books to make it look like anglo had more cash reserves

this thread is about if cowan has lost his marbles but i dont think he has i believe cowan and lenihan are holding back from a full ecb/imf bail out as to try and keep some of this countrys important decisions be made by the irish government not by some one in the eu

Liam Byrne

smokin ace wrote: »

this thread is about if cowan has lost his marbles but i dont think he has i believe cowan and lenihan are holding back from a full ecb/imf bail out as to try and keep some of this countrys important decisions be made by the irish government not by some one in the eu

I actually believe it's the exact opposite, that Cowen & Lenihan are actually trying to make it seem like the EU are to blame for the cuts so that they can wash their hands of it.

Even today's phrasing implies that, with the EU saying that "Ireland can get help if it asks" and Cowen - when asked whether there would be a bailout - not saying "no", but instead claiming "we haven't formally asked".

Cowen & FF do not want to be viewed as responsible for anything; the crisis, the bank bailouts, or even the cuts required to fix things.

Which begs the question why the hell we're paying their wages.

lmaopml

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Which begs the question why the hell we're paying their wages.

Lenihan is pretty sick; money is possibly not the motivator?

Cowen is ridiculed on a regular basis and doesn't look like he's exactly taking time out to enjoy rolling in the dosh and sleeping well since he took office.

I wouldn't like the job anyways, and whatever they are - we're stuck with them for the time being. We can blame it all on the OAP's and the greedy people who bought property later..

There are plenty of people who would have been too young to vote too, and it's certainly not their fault, but sh*t happens.

Laminations

smokin ace wrote: »

i fully agree with some of your points but look back at all the so called dig outs and the Political corruption and greed in the government in the good times and they were still voted back into power so someone had to vote them back in and it was not the english french or germans(no offence to any of these)

In 2007 the cancerous bulge in our chest could maybe have passed for heart burn, some people may have still been fooled (40% was it?) and they may have let themselves be fooled as they didn't want to confront the reality. The government still held credibility for many back then but times have changed - it is obvious even to a child that our chest pain is not merely heart burn and that the government cant be trusted.

Hmmmm, I'll put it this way. A woman slowly lifts her trouser leg and some in the audience see immediately that she is revealing a fake prosthetic leg. Its not 100% obvious but those clued in start to see it. But the majority shout them down because they want to see more of this leg and the woman on stage promises them more. That was 2007. By now the woman has no trousers left, the crap is obvious, the mask has slipped, everyone in the audience is fuming that they were conned, they expected some nice can can. They want the woman gone but there are still some (family, friends and loyal beneficiaries that protect the fraud, and castigate the audience blaming them for believing in the first place.

Eventually we all stop believing in Santa Claus, doesn't make people stupid for at one time being fooled by an overweight alcoholic promising you presents.

hinault

I'm not sure that Cowen has started to realise just how serious the crisis facing this country actually is.

I watched his interview on the Six One news tonight and it would appear that he thinks everything will be sorted out!

P. Breathnach

hinault wrote: »

I'm not sure that Cowen has started to realise just how serious the crisis facing this country actually is.

I watched his interview on the Six One news tonight and it would appear that he thinks everything will be sorted out!

I think so, too. That is why I am not trying to acquire a gun.

There will be costs, enormous costs, but we will be back here next year and the year after and the year after that, still bitching about how awful things are, and complaining about how incompetent our FG/Lab coalition is.

hinault

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think so, too. That is why I am not trying to acquire a gun.

There will be costs, enormous costs, but we will be back here next year and the year after and the year after that, still bitching about how awful things are, and complaining about how incompetent our FG/Lab coalition is.

err, FG/Lab didn't put us in the position we now find ourselves in.

Cowen appears to ignore the fact that his policies have landed us in this utter mess.

The man is clearly delusional in my view.

Scofflaw

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think so, too. That is why I am not trying to acquire a gun.

There will be costs, enormous costs, but we will be back here next year and the year after and the year after that, still bitching about how awful things are, and complaining about how incompetent our FG/Lab coalition is.

Most crises result in very small changes in society and politics. Even catastrophes result in surprisingly little.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Amhran Nua

Scofflaw wrote: »

ISource: http://online.wsj.com

Not a great idea to be quoting a Murdoch mouthpiece as a source, the WSJ is not a reliable publication any more.

Cowen is far out of his depth, as is the entire FF party. I don't hold a great antagonism towards them, despite their many failures, rather I feel pity for the most part. Their greatest strength is in counting on getting lucky, and so their existence as a force in Irish politics is by their own nature going to be short lived in the grand scheme of things.

This is the man the thread refers to:

P. Breathnach

hinault wrote: »

err, FG/Lab didn't put us in the position we now find ourselves in....

That might be attributable to their good fortune in not winning the last election.

Scofflaw

Try to restrain yourselves from making puerile jokes, folks. Because they can and will be infracted and deleted.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Not a great idea to be quoting a Murdoch mouthpiece as a source, the WSJ is not a reliable publication any more.

Sure - I'm well aware of it. I thought the piece was interesting on its own merits.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Cowen is far out of his depth, as is the entire FF party. I don't hold a great antagonism towards them, despite their many failures, rather I feel pity for the most part. Their greatest strength is in counting on getting lucky, and so their existence as a force in Irish politics is by their own nature going to be short lived in the grand scheme of things.

This is the man the thread refers to:

The funny thing is, though, that I don't think his social habits are particularly relevant to his competence as a negotiator. The European Constitution spent years in a variety of deadlocks, until Bertie decided it would be a feather in his cap to get it finalised during the Irish Presidency, and Cowen was the man he sent in.

Like I said, nobody has ever profited by underestimating Fianna Fáil - they've weathered every disaster they've led the country into, and every clever lad who thought he had the measure of them. I'd no more pity them than I'd pity a cobra.

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sure - I'm well aware of it. I thought the piece was interesting on its own merits.



The funny thing is, though, that I don't think his social habits are particularly relevant to his competence as a negotiator. The European Constitution spent years in a variety of deadlocks, until Bertie decided it would be a feather in his cap to get it finalised during the Irish Presidency, and Cowen was the man he sent in.

Like I said, nobody has ever profited by underestimating Fianna Fáil - they've weathered every disaster they've led the country into, and every clever lad who thought he had the measure of them. I'd no more pity them than I'd pity a cobra.

cordially,
Scofflaw

FF get the credit for dragging us out of the mess in the 80's. The same mess they got us into in the first place. I'm guilty of that.

Though in fairness, FG/Lab preached a lot in the 80's about FF and made the situation far worse.

femur61

hinault wrote: »

I'm not sure that Cowen has started to realise just how serious the crisis facing this country actually is.

I watched his interview on the Six One news tonight and it would appear that he thinks everything will be sorted out!

Thats exactly why I'm worried. Remember Bertie took the same attitude to a lot of things "what the hell are you talking about attitude". The Europeans are not only astounded that the Irish government are not doing anything but the Irish people are standing by and letting them do f*&k all.

touts

Scofflaw wrote: »

I can't help but recall two things - first, this is the same guy who finally got the European Constitution negotiated; and second, that nobody has ever profited by underestimating Fianna Fáil when they think their political survival is at stake.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Really. Is that the "European Constitution" that failed to pass in France and Holland or the "Not a European Constitution it's a treaty" that failed to pass in Ireland before the same guy negotiated non binding guarantees that our economic sovereignty was safe. How did those guarantees work out again? Clinging to the negotiating of a European Constitution as the last remaining example of "success" just shows that the Fianna Fail hacks are so confused by the spin coming out from the bunker that they have lost all concept of which lie is the current one never mind what the truth is.
Secondly I think it would be quite hard to underestimate the prospects for Cowen and Fianna Fail at the moment. Only the most loyal party fundamentalists think there is any bright political future for the man or the party.

dan_d

two wheels good wrote: »

I heard that repeatedly around the time of the bank guarantee and then about the bailout and the implication was: .
"Oh, they know what they're doing. Just trust them. How could you or I understand the complexity of the problem".

Come to think of it, I heard it many times in the UK to claim the justify the Iraq invasion in 2003 and hoodwink the public about WMD.

No, that's not what I said. I don't trust any of them...so much so to look at them and think "what's going on behind closed doors that we don't know about?". Not necessarily in an intelligent way - in a sly, "glic" way. Personally, I think I've a fairly clear understanding of the situation, as do many others there. My point was - don't write them off as being clod hopping idiots, as the title of this thread would suggest.....there's always an ulterior motive, and not necessarily good, but it is there and they will do their ultimate to achieve it.

mistermouse

No he didn't loose his marbles, he invested them with his mates in Anglo Irish Bank and they haven't told him they lost them and he is still unaware of any of the lost marbles, money, patriotism, world standing, soverienty or confidence.
Though we may have lost ours to believe we have democracy when the term is used loosely given that by-elections are being put off, Public service unions can dictate and its the clear wish of the people that an election takes place.
The two Brians seem more interested in keeping us in the dark than playing the EU and Markets.

Politicians from Ireland of all parties have spent the past few years trying to impress Europe and I expect nothing to change now

danbohan

hinault wrote: »

err, FG/Lab didn't put us in the position we now find ourselves in.

Cowen appears to ignore the fact that his policies have landed us in this utter mess.

The man is clearly delusional in my view.

The man is clearly delusional in my view.

indeed his is , as are all our politicians , and a vast sway of the Irish population who believe fianna fail /banks / developers are the ''only'' cause of the situation we are in . a bit of collective responsibility would be helpful.

Scofflaw

touts wrote: »

Really. Is that the "European Constitution" that failed to pass in France and Holland or the "Not a European Constitution it's a treaty" that failed to pass in Ireland before the same guy negotiated non binding guarantees that our economic sovereignty was safe. How did those guarantees work out again? Clinging to the negotiating of a European Constitution as the last remaining example of "success" just shows that the Fianna Fail hacks are so confused by the spin coming out from the bunker that they have lost all concept of which lie is the current one never mind what the truth is.
Secondly I think it would be quite hard to underestimate the prospects for Cowen and Fianna Fail at the moment. Only the most loyal party fundamentalists think there is any bright political future for the man or the party.

That is the European Constitution that had spent several years mired in failed negotiations, and which was finally negotiated under the Irish Presidency. Its subsequent career is entirely irrelevant.

I'm not arguing that Fianna Fáil have a 'bright electoral future' - instead, I expect them to take a battering at the next general election, assuming that's relatively close. I'm making the point that anyone who underestimates them is making a mistake that should never be made, and that anyone who thinks it's a case of simply walking over their recumbent corpse into the Dáil is really fooling themselves.

I appreciate that the message that the fight isn't already won may not be a popular one when people are basking in the warm glow of a vicarious, and so far entirely speculative, victory.

regards,
Scofflaw