Pat Rabbitte, short memory?

DeVore

"Economic growth and prosperity have changed the face of our country. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state has been achieved.... Ireland is no longer the failed entity of the past."—Pat Rabbitte, 2007 (source http://www.labour.ie/manifesto/1.html)


A pox on ALL their houses.

DeV.

IvyTheTerrible

Yep totally agree. Very easy to do a shouty rant against FF when everyone is against them.

mike65

Did this need a seperate thread?

skelliser

why does this need a seperate thread?

Wibbs

Yep the usual political blowharding and like you say it's pretty much all of them. FG/FF/L/SF/G, delete your personal allegiance as applicable.

chin_grin

........is it not "a plague" on their houses? I'd much prefer a plague. On their houses.

Wibbs

What's brilliant is he(and he wasn't alone) said this in 07 at the very height of the unsustainable bubble, so if you think much would have changed with anyone else at the helm you'd be on a loser IMH.

Cavehill Red

skelliser wrote: »

why does this need a seperate thread?

Of course not.
But those looking to divert blame from where it belongs - ie Fianna Fail - will do anything in their power to try distraction tactics.

The Irish economy is like a shopping centre's access to the upper floors, escalators up & stairs down!

It's easy for everyone to ride up, but hard work to walk down, or in some cases fall down! The IMF will give us a hard push down a few steps.

chin_grin

FOUR LEGS GOOD, TWO LEGS BAD.

FOUR LEGS GOOD, TWO LEGS BAD.

Cavehill Red

DeVore wrote: »

"Economic growth and prosperity have changed the face of our country. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state has been achieved.... Ireland is no longer the failed entity of the past."—Pat Rabbitte, 2007 (source http://www.labour.ie/manifesto/1.html)


A pox on ALL their houses.

DeV.

Pat Rabbitte didn't have access to the cooked government books when he said that.
Pat Rabbitte was taking the lying government ministers at their word when they said the economic outlook for Ireland was never better.
Pat Rabbitte was not aware that Fianna Fail were assisting their Galway tent banker pals in defrauding the state.
If you're looking to blame Pat Rabbitte for the mess we're currently in, you're sadly deluded.

FatherLen

there is a thread for this already you jerk. just look a few inches lower and you will see it. :mad:

Mod: Poster banned for this comment.

super_furry

In 2007 economic growth and prosperity HAD changed the face of our country and. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state HAD been achieved.

Pat Rabbitte and his party were not privy to the true reasons as to why this appeared to have happened though, and were unaware - like everyone else in the country - of the crimes that Fianna Fail were committing against the state.

My name is URL

Well whatever. I think what he said last night was from the heart and devoid of his pre-programmed party line. Either way, he said what most people are thinking. Doesn't really matter who it was saying it, imo.

DeVore

mike65 wrote: »

Did this need a seperate thread?

Because i think hypocrisy should be highlighted when it's clear.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Of course not.
But those looking to divert blame from where it belongs - ie Fianna Fail - will do anything in their power to try distraction tactics.

F*ck FF, they are primarily to blame. But I did say ALL their houses. ALL.

DeV.

Cavehill Red

DeVore wrote: »

F*ck FF, they are primarily to blame. But I did say ALL their houses. ALL.

DeV.

Yes, you did, and you were wrong to do so, because some of those 'houses' weren't in power and did not contribute at all to the mess we're in and you're being disingenuous suggesting otherwise.

Wibbs

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Of course not.
But those looking to divert blame from where it belongs - ie Fianna Fail - will do anything in their power to try distraction tactics.

I can't abide FF. Think they're a bunch of crooked gangsters and have been since the foundation of this state under Dev. The others have their moments but brains is an outlier in our poliitical class(and in much of our electorate too BTW).

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Pat Rabbitte didn't have access to the cooked government books when he said that.
Pat Rabbitte was taking the lying government ministers at their word when they said the economic outlook for Ireland was never better.
Pat Rabbitte was not aware that Fianna Fail were assisting their Galway tent banker pals in defrauding the state.
If you're looking to blame Pat Rabbitte for the mess we're currently in, you're sadly deluded.

Well was he blind? The dogs on the street could have told you all of that, but since the same dogs were of the Im alright jack, keep my head down mentality bugger all happened and anyone who dared to suggest otherwise was looked on as being "pessimistic". Your second point is hardly sensible for an opposition leader. Their job is to call them on the BS.

Though I would say there is some distraction going on and it's not so much from the usual crew, it's from the europhiles. What has been noticeably absent in the Irish media and politicos is any suggestion that us joining the euro currency had a huge part to play in this. "Oh noes, how dare you!!, we're Europeans you know". I liked the EEC, the EC ditto, we got a lot from membership, but the Euro was a step too far as far as steering our own economic boat was concerned. When the dust has settled in a few years, our "sovereignty" to the IMF won't be an issue, our sovereignty as far as the unelected civil service class in Brussels and Bonn will be(cue uncritical EU lovers going apeshít).

skelliser

DeVore wrote: »

Because i think hypocrisy should be highlighted when it's clear.

That is your opinion.

The oppositions budgetary and election manifestos are based on information provided to them by the gov. of the day.
Its clear now that the books were being cooked.

Also you were very selective in your qoute. Labour in 2007 were the only party to say they would do away with property based tax breaks which would have helped a little to ease the economic collapse.

Granted alot of people got caught in the headlights but Pat Rabbittes outburst was more about the incompetent and imo corrupt decisions which have been made since 2008.

dr ro

FatherLen wrote: »

there is a thread for this already you jerk. just look a few inches lower and you will see it. :mad:

Mod: Poster banned for this comment.

why the ban?

mloc123

Politics this way >>>

Wibbs

Lets examine these points further;

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Pat Rabbitte didn't have access to the cooked government books when he said that.

He didn't need to. The bubble was speaking for itself.

Pat Rabbitte was taking the lying government ministers at their word when they said the economic outlook for Ireland was never better.

Well then with respect, he was either colluding with that nonsense or he was a fool. In 2007 the building industry was building twice as many properties as the UK in the same year with its population of 60+ millions. Worse it was building properties that simply couldn't be filled by our population for at least a generation. Secondly it was clear to anyone who cared to look that 100% mortgages were on the cards. It was an open secret. Could he and others not joined the dots. I did and I'm not the sharpest on this stuff.

Pat Rabbitte was not aware that Fianna Fail were assisting their Galway tent banker pals in defrauding the state.

Yea well I've been around such tents and I can tell you they're not only populated by FF.

If you're looking to blame Pat Rabbitte for the mess we're currently in, you're sadly deluded.

Hence he said all and I agree.

Wibbs

skelliser wrote: »

The oppositions budgetary and election manifestos are based on information provided to them by the gov. of the day.
Its clear now that the books were being cooked.

Forget the "books" he could have just looked out the window and would have seen the obvious disparities and the most obvious inflationary bubble since the big bang.

Also you were very selective in your qoute. Labour in 2007 were the only party to say they would do away with property based tax breaks which would have helped a little to ease the economic collapse.

Eh in 2007? Grand idea, about 8 years too late. Gate close, horse bolted springs to mind.

Granted alot of people got caught in the headlights but Pat Rabbittes outburst was more about the incompetent and imo corrupt decisions which have been made since 2008.

That part I agree with. Especially the rush through of NAMA after quite a few advised against it.

PanchoVilla

Ireland has a successful economy, but a society under strain. Hard working families across Ireland live life on a treadmill - a never-ending and ever more grinding cycle of traffic, work, and responsibility. Sections of our people continue to suffer disadvantage and deprivation. One in nine of our children live in poverty, and in some schools, one in three suffers severe literacy difficulties. Growing anti-social behaviour makes life miserable for vulnerable people and their communities. There are signs, particularly among our young people, of a society ill at ease with itself and in need of a fresh sense of purpose.

We cannot take our economic success for granted, but neither can we be content with economic success alone. We must measure ourselves too by the quality of our civilisation - by the kind of Ireland we create and bequeath to our children.We must seize the opportunity afforded to us by peace and prosperity to build an Ireland that I call the Fair Society.

The Fair Society is built on a prosperous and sustainable economy, personal liberty and social solidarity.

http://www.labour.ie/manifesto/1.html

Say what you like about Pat Rabbitte, but at least he knows that a successful society is not based solely on a successful "economy" (which is a load of shíte, imaginary numbers not based in reality whatsoever) but on a fair and equal system which is judged by it's poorest and most vulnerable citizens, not it's wealthiest and most powerful.

Poor form Dev, that quote you took was completely out of context. I would have thought the people of Ireland, especially the head of such a popular site as boards.ie, would take this opportunity to put partisan politics aside and come together to find a way out of this disaster we all find ourselves in. Pat Rabbitte only said what everyone in this country is feeling at the moment and I'm glad he did. I don't give a damn about his politics or his party but he has my respect as a human being.

donal_mcg

One thing that is missing from any commentary on this whole mess is the role that the irish people had to play in things going tits up. This cannot be blamed solely on FF/other parties/builders/bankers alone. Nearly everyone was complicit in making this mess. I have no house, never been able to afford one (or didn't see the point in paying 400K+ to live in Cavan/Laois etc) but the amount of times I had to sit in pubs and listen to people boasting about profits they made from sales of their houses / trading up made me sick. 50% of the population were acting like they were financial geniuses (genii?) by being able to buy and then sell a house while boasting about their ability to do this.

For sure, all of the crooks (FF/banks/developers) put in place the machine to enable people to do this but not many listened to the economists who were saying stop or to think of the people trying just to buy somewhere to live rather than a 3rd gaff to milk money off others less fortunate. But just like the government, not one person I know is taking responsibility for their actions, its all someone elses fault. In my opinion Pat Rabitte should have been staring at the camera, directing his tirade not just at FF but at the general public also

prinz

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Poor form Dev, that quote you took was completely out of context. I would have thought the people of Ireland, especially the head of such a popular site as boards.ie, would take this opportunity to put partisan politics aside and come together to find a way out of this disaster we all find ourselves in..

That's exactly what it does. By highlighting the nonsense that is the mob running from one party to the next based on populist cheap shots, it reminds people to look deeper, all that glistens is not gold etc. There are more options out there than running straight from FF to Labour, for example.

Rabitte may have talked the talk last night but is he really willing to walk the walk, and that's my quota of clichés filled.

Cavehill Red

prinz wrote: »

Rabitte may have talked the talk last night but is he really willing to walk the walk, and that's my quota of clichés filled.

Elect him to government and you'll find out.

c_man

DeVore wrote: »

A pox on ALL their houses.

+ a million.

They just don't get how fed up people are with the whole system. How it doesn't work, corrupts and is treated as a playground for those who couldn't get enough of student politics.

Remember a few weeks ago a guy echoing the above to Rabitte on the Frontline. He responded by going into a right tizzy, spouting some rubbish about "if you want to change things, then join a party."

If you hate FF so much Pat, why not join it and change it from the inside....?

prinz

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Elect him to government and you'll find out.

It doesn't work like that.

Cavehill Red

prinz wrote: »

It doesn't work like that.

Sure it does. If the poster wishes to see Rabbitte 'walk the walk' then all they need do is vote his party into government.

ch750536

donal_mcg wrote: »

Pat Rabitte should have been staring at the camera, directing his tirade not just at FF but at the general public also

Yeah, thats right. It's my fault that
~Politicians hid the true state of the banks when they gave the guarantee
~Banks behaved like a casinos & lost with how they gave out mortgages.
~Banks committed fraud on their balance sheets
~Politicians backed the banks as they are effectively a politicians pension fund
~Banks continue to this day to lie and deceive (passwords anyone?)
~Politicians continue to lie & deceive (Shrill bidding for bonds anyone?)

Yeah, all my fault. How dare I pay my mortgage each month!

(ffs @ you btw.)

Noreen1

donal_mcg wrote: »

One thing that is missing from any commentary on this whole mess is the role that the irish people had to play in things going tits up. This cannot be blamed solely on FF/other parties/builders/bankers alone. Nearly everyone was complicit in making this mess. I have no house, never been able to afford one (or didn't see the point in paying 400K+ to live in Cavan/Laois etc) but the amount of times I had to sit in pubs and listen to people boasting about profits they made from sales of their houses / trading up made me sick. 50% of the population were acting like they were financial geniuses (genii?) by being able to buy and then sell a house while boasting about their ability to do this.

For sure, all of the crooks (FF/banks/developers) put in place the machine to enable people to do this but not many listened to the economists who were saying stop or to think of the people trying just to buy somewhere to live rather than a 3rd gaff to milk money off others less fortunate. But just like the government, not one person I know is taking responsibility for their actions, its all someone elses fault. In my opinion Pat Rabitte should have been staring at the camera, directing his tirade not just at FF but at the general public also

What percentage of the Irish public actually engaged in property speculation, though?
It seems to me that, the average "Joe Soap" had enough to do to service one mortgage. Comparatively few would have been able to service more than one?
Of those who traded up, how many are now in mortgage arrears?
Should we also direct a tirade at those who bought a family home at market prices, only to find their previously secure incomes were flushed away with the remnants of the "Celtic Tiger"?

Noreen

prinz

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Sure it does. If the poster wishes to see Rabbitte 'walk the walk' then all they need do is vote his party into government.

I don't fancy electing anyone based on a few minutes of election time posturing. He could have been 'walking the walk' long before getting into government.

It's not about being pro- anti- Labour either. It's a simple warning not to engage in knee-jerk voting.

PanchoVilla

donal_mcg wrote: »

One thing that is missing from any commentary on this whole mess is the role that the irish people had to play in things going tits up. This cannot be blamed solely on FF/other parties/builders/bankers alone. Nearly everyone was complicit in making this mess. I have no house, never been able to afford one (or didn't see the point in paying 400K+ to live in Cavan/Laois etc) but the amount of times I had to sit in pubs and listen to people boasting about profits they made from sales of their houses / trading up made me sick. 50% of the population were acting like they were financial geniuses (genii?) by being able to buy and then sell a house while boasting about their ability to do this.

For sure, all of the crooks (FF/banks/developers) put in place the machine to enable people to do this but not many listened to the economists who were saying stop or to think of the people trying just to buy somewhere to live rather than a 3rd gaff to milk money off others less fortunate. But just like the government, not one person I know is taking responsibility for their actions, its all someone elses fault. In my opinion Pat Rabitte should have been staring at the camera, directing his tirade not just at FF but at the general public also

I'm getting so sick of this line being trotted out. It's no different to blaming the victims of fraud for the crime. We have laws in place (or should have) to ensure people who can't repay loans are not granted those loans in the first place. Those laws were ignored by the banks and the government failed in it's duty to regulate the economy.

The welfare of this country was ignored by arrogant, greedy politicians and businessmen who wanted to make a name for themselves. Well, it's backfired on them and now they will be remembered as the incompetent morons they really are. The general public are not responsible for believing what they're told by their own government. The boom created wealth for people who had never seen so much money, it's hardly surprising that they didn't know how to manage it all. The people who manage money on a daily basis, the government and banks, are the ones to blame.

I think the main reason FF won so many seats in the last election was because people wanted to see them fix the mess they made in the first place. Unfortunately, those imbeciles somehow managed to make things even worse.

Cavehill Red

prinz wrote: »

I don't fancy electing anyone based on a few minutes of election time posturing. He could have been 'walking the walk' long before getting into government.

It's not about being pro- anti- Labour either. It's a simple warning not to engage in knee-jerk voting.

Pat Rabbitte walked the walk in government and as Labour leader and has done so as an Opposition front bench spokesman for some time.
If you think he was in any position to declare that Fianna Fail and the Dept of Finance were lying in 07, then you need to think again. Even if he suspected it (and people like Wibbs and I apparently did) he was in no position to accuse them of it because the books presented by the government were cooked.

cleremy jarkson

No party in the 2007 election promised that they would grind our property bubble to a halt, and in fact all promised people even more stuff.

I also remember Enda Kenny saying after budget 2006 that the problem was the budget didn't spend enough.

So I was extremely irritated last night by Pat Rabbitte's opportunistic outburst which is of course going to appeal directly to gullible emotional voters who are frustrated at their financial position (chances are it is because they decided to burden themselves with massive debt when everyone else around them was) and are angry at "the banks and the politicians". This country would have crumbled a lot quicker if labour had any say in the last 3 budgets as they wouldn't have gotten passed (if they followed their own policies anyway).
What adds to this irritation is that I would bet my life that Pat Rabbitte and the Labour party don't have a viable alternative for how we get out of the situation. Imagine Joan Burton being in Brian Lenihan's shoes? She would destroy the economy.

All the parties keep saying to Fianna Fail, "yous caused this....yous should feel ashamed of yourselves". The reality is ithat f the Fianna Fail government of 2002 - 2007 decided in say 2004 that it was going to cool down the property market by removing all tax-based incentives, people would have went crazy. Year on year economic growth of 5%, full employment...seriously, do people forget how absolutely astounding our economy was? There was absolutely NO will amongst the people (including those who knew at an academic level that it was unsustainable) nor ANY of the political parties to cool down the economy. In those days, it would have been madness. People are hypocrites...they're happy to accept flawed economic polices when it suits them.

Why didn't labour or fine gael do their job in 2004 and try to force the government to cool down the property bubble? Why didn't they try to stop our artifical economic growth? They arn;t taking their share of the responsibility and nobody seems to recognise that. They were in the Dail, they had a chance to point out flaws in our economic model but they didn't.
Shame on all the parties.

kev9100

DeVore wrote: »

"Economic growth and prosperity have changed the face of our country. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state has been achieved.... Ireland is no longer the failed entity of the past."—Pat Rabbitte, 2007 (source http://www.labour.ie/manifesto/1.html)


A pox on ALL their houses.

DeV.

Pure BS. Neither Rabbitte or any other opposition politician had access to the books and had no say on policy. How anyone can somehow place blame on Labour for this mess is beyond me.

StupidLikeAFox

"Economic growth and prosperity have changed the face of our country. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state has been achieved.... Ireland is no longer the failed entity of the past."

The thing is though, that quote is three years out of date. If Labour had won that election we may not have been in the state we are in now. Anglo for one probably wouldnt have been saved.Then again maybe we would, who knows?

The point Im making is, just because you can dig up that one quote, it doesnt put Pat Rabbitte in the same league as Fianna Fail.

The FFers are completely out of touch with the public, two cases in point that stick out in my mind -
1) The whole fiasco with the govt minister announcing on radio that the way out of recession is free cheese
2) The day after a recent tiger kidnapping, Dermot Ahern uses the opportunity to use it as an excuse to announce that a "tax on ATM withdrawals will reduce the risk of tiger kidnappings".

They're just two off the top of my head, but the governmnet are always at it. They are living on a different planet.

Which brings me to the point that no matter what you think of Pats performance on Prime Time, it was a moment where someone finally said it directly to the government "You should be ashamed of yourself". Its something that a lot of people would love the opportunity to do but the government just dont seem to listen.

tl dr, its a bit of a cheap shot Dev (please dont ban me)

thebigbiffo

if pet rabbite had been in power in 06-07 he would have thrown money at the electorate, the civil service and the unions same as the rest of them inc. FG - anybody who thinks otherwise is dellusional.

ye can all argue over who's the 'best' at the moment but there's no evidence on the public record that any of these f'ucksticks would have done anything that would have stopped this crisis from happening.

and please: can someone explain to me how the government 'cooked the books' at the time? presumably, they'd need half the department of finance in on this and it'd be easy to prove. it's much more likely that there was a housing crash, a recession and mis-information from the banks that f'ucked up our finances (indeed, most of this caused by the government but that's policy, not f'uckin book fiddling)...certainly not some all nighter down the DOF fiddling numbers.:rolleyes:

the rabble keep rabbling

prinz

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Pat Rabbitte walked the walk in government and as Labour leader and has done so as an Opposition front bench spokesman for some time. If you think he was in any position to declare that Fianna Fail and the Dept of Finance were lying in 07, then you need to think again. Even if he suspected it (and people like Wibbs and I apparently did) he was in no position to accuse them of it because the books presented by the government were cooked.

The books presented by the government were not 'cooked', the reflected exactly the massive revenue being generated by the building boom. Rabbitte and co were on the other side at times criticising the government for not spending enough of this wealth. Anyone could see that if the building boom collapsed (inevitable) that money would evaporate.

kev9100 wrote: »

Pure BS. Neither Rabbitte or any other opposition politician had access to the books and had no say on policy. How anyone can somehow place blame on Labour for this mess is beyond me.

No one is blaming them for the mess. People are saying it's easy to come out now and mouth off. He could have been giving last night's performance in the Dáil day in day out for years, but he wasn't.

Cavehill Red

prinz wrote: »

The books presented by the government were not 'cooked', the reflected exactly the massive revenue being generated by the building boom. Rabbitte and co were on the other side at times criticising the government for not spending enough of this wealth. Anyone could see that if the building boom collapsed (inevitable) that money would evaporate.

Of course the books were cooked. It was only a matter of weeks after the election when Bertie started rolling back on the election promises, claiming our finances were much worse off than he'd previously been aware of.
Either he's lying, and FF already knew the state of the country's finances, or he's telling the truth and the DoF spoofed him.

prinz wrote: »

No one is blaming them for the mess. People are saying it's easy to come out now and mouth off. He could have been giving last night's performance in the Dáil day in day out for years, but he wasn't.

Sure he has. If you'd watched as much Oireachtas report as I have (I know, I know...) then you'd know that.
Generally, the response from the front bench of the government has been Cullen-esque sneering, Dermo Ahern heckling, or Biffo bluster.
Rabbitte's been calling it for a long time and the government instead of listening have been smugly insisting they were right. Well, they weren't.

cleremy jarkson

kev9100 wrote: »

How anyone can somehow place blame on Labour for this mess is beyond me.

Nobody's suggesting it was all their fault, because it wasn't. They did have a responsibility though, by being sat in the Dail between 2002 and 2007, to point out Fianna Fail's flawed economic model. After all, judging by the way they talk now, they must have known back then that the model was flawed. Pointing in out now in no good and deserves no applause or admiration. They should have pointed it out back when it would have been politically unwise to do so. They would have gained my support for life if they had to have done so but in reality it would have ran against everything they stand for eg. ensuring the best standard of living for the bottom end of society, income wise.

I don't believe they did believe it was flawed though. I think they saw how brilliantly the economy was performing and ended up having to make up problems to give out about in the Dail.

Why didn't Eamonn Gilmore promise to slow the boom down in 2007? This would have been the correct policy to persue, instead of promising to keep it going like Aherne did. But he didn't do it. Why?

You see, all the politicans in the dail either got in at a time when or spent 13 years there when it was easy to be a politican because there was a seemingly endless supply of money to solve problems with. Now were left with a bunch of idiots not used to making decisions that hurt people and the ones in power fumble about making unsatisfactory cuts and the ones in opposition spout the same old rhetoric every week and offer no viable alternatives to what the government is doing.

dolphin city

donal_mcg wrote: »

One thing that is missing from any commentary on this whole mess is the role that the irish people had to play in things going tits up. This cannot be blamed solely on FF/other parties/builders/bankers alone. Nearly everyone was complicit in making this mess. I have no house, never been able to afford one (or didn't see the point in paying 400K+ to live in Cavan/Laois etc) but the amount of times I had to sit in pubs and listen to people boasting about profits they made from sales of their houses / trading up made me sick. 50% of the population were acting like they were financial geniuses (genii?) by being able to buy and then sell a house while boasting about their ability to do this.

For sure, all of the crooks (FF/banks/developers) put in place the machine to enable people to do this but not many listened to the economists who were saying stop or to think of the people trying just to buy somewhere to live rather than a 3rd gaff to milk money off others less fortunate. But just like the government, not one person I know is taking responsibility for their actions, its all someone elses fault. In my opinion Pat Rabitte should have been staring at the camera, directing his tirade not just at FF but at the general public also

donal, completely have to agree with you there. It beggers belief that lots of people did not stop to think when the 100 percent morgages came out. I mean did anybody just think there was something a little bit not kosher about this. When house prices were raised to the hilt, they were beating down the doors of the bank to get a mortgage. When all the flyers coming in the door offering people credit cards etc. ANYONE with a bit of cop on should have said no, wait a minute, this can't be right. Instead everyone went in with their eyes wide open, even fiddled the books to get their fancy house, fancy car and fancy mortgage (along with a weird accent along the way) and looked down at people who were too afraid to do this, or had more sense to do this. Now they are all crying foul, and looking for someone to blame - blame yourselves. Next time realise if somethign is too good to be true, it usually is.

I am not defending any political party in this mail = my philosophy has been if the govt says black, I say white. - It has kept me out of a lot of trouble and I will continue to live my life within MY means and not listen to a pack of gobshi*es telling me to go ahead and do what they say. If they told ye to jump off a bridge, would ye do it.

everyone has a mind of their own - start using it. at the end of the day the govt are only a crowd of men and women feeling their way through also. Why should you ever trust what they have to say.

We would have been better off protesting about our right to a democratic result of a vote, when we were "told to do it until we got the correct answer". Maybe if we had protested then we might not be in the situation we are in now. We need to grow a pair of balls and start telling the govt that THEY work for US - not the other way around. this country has turned into a pack of lickars*s and we wouldn't know a principal anymore if it hit us in the face.

prinz

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Of course the books were cooked. It was only a matter of weeks after the election when Bertie started rolling back on the election promises, claiming our finances were much worse off than he'd previously been aware of.
Either he's lying, and FF already knew the state of the country's finances, or he's telling the truth and the DoF spoofed him..

...and the opposition Rabbitte included gave the hell for not spending, spending, spending.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Sure he has. If you'd watched as much Oireachtas report as I have (I know, I know...) then you'd know that.
Generally, the response from the front bench of the government has been Cullen-esque sneering, Dermo Ahern heckling, or Biffo bluster.
Rabbitte's been calling it for a long time and the government instead of listening have been smugly insisting they were right. Well, they weren't.

Here's what he could have done..... walked out and taken Gilmore and the Labour party with him. I'll probably be voting Labour msyelf, have done before, likely to do again, but last night's performance will have nothing to do with it.

Cavehill Red

prinz wrote: »

...and the opposition Rabbitte included gave the hell for not spending, spending, spending.

If the government books say they're running record surpluses, what else are people going to propose only spend some of the money to benefit those outside of the propertied moneyed classes?
But those books were lies. And chances are, Fianna Fail knew they were lies.

prinz wrote: »

Here's what he could have done..... walked out and taken Gilmore and the Labour party with him.

And then you'd be giving out about why weren't Labour taking their seats in parliament holding the government to account. :rolleyes:

Lumen

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

No party in the 2007 election promised that they would grind our property bubble to a halt, and in fact all promised people even more stuff.

Don't blame me, I voted Sinn Fein. :pac:

Mark my words, the time is coming for the beating-the-****-out-of-people party.

Cavehill Red

Lumen wrote: »

Don't blame me, I voted Sinn Fein. :pac:

Mark my words, the time is coming for the beating-the-****-out-of-people party.

Same thing, no?

Lumen

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Same thing, no?

Whoosh!

prinz

Cavehill Red wrote: »

If the government books say they're running record surpluses, what else are people going to propose only spend some of the money to benefit those outside of the propertied moneyed classes?
But those books were lies. And chances are, Fianna Fail knew they were lies.

Everyone knew they were based on lies ffs, the record surpluses were based on a bubble. It wouldn't have been so bad if the surpluses had been put by for times like now, but FF, egged on by FG and Labour spent spent spent like there was no tomorrow.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

And then you'd be giving out about why weren't Labour taking their seats in parliament holding the government to account. :rolleyes:

Not really, would have been quite a simple matter to threaten a constitutional crisis, basically forcing an election. Not a pretty sight, and not a recommended course of action in general, but one which IMO was needed lately.

Cavehill Red

prinz wrote: »

Everyone knew they were based on lies ffs, the record surpluses were based on a bubble. It wouldn't have been so bad if the surpluses had been put by for times like now, but FF, egged on by FG and Labour spent spent spent like there was no tomorrow.

But everyone didn't know. Most of the population genuinely believed 'this time was different.'
FG and Labour based policies on what figures they received from government. The government is to blame, them alone. Any attempt to dissipate blame is an attempt to get FF off the hook for what they've done.

prinz wrote: »

Not really, would have been quite a simple matter to threaten a constitutional crisis, basically forcing an election. Not a pretty sight, and not a recommended course of action in general, but one which IMO was needed lately.

That easy to force an election? I don't think so, given the fact the current government has no mandate and is clinging to power despite constituencies being left without TDs for years on end.
And what would have happened in 07 if they HAD forced an election somehow? Sure the public had only just voted FF back in ffs.

thebigbiffo

Cavehill Red wrote: »

If the government books say they're running record surpluses, what else are people going to propose only spend some of the money to benefit those outside of the propertied moneyed classes?
But those books were lies. And chances are, Fianna Fail knew they were lies.




And then you'd be giving out about why weren't Labour taking their seats in parliament holding the government to account. :rolleyes:

can somebody please define these 'books' for me?

THERE ARE NO BOOKS FFS!!

there are and were freely available numbers from the dept of finance relating to income and expenditure - there were yearly budgets and updates. nobody gave false numbers and there was no dodgy accounting.

there was bad policy, planning, implementation, foresight etc etc and the list is endless - and each and every policy could be torn apart at will at the time by rabbitte et al.. they didn't/couldn't do it then and try ram it down my throat now that they did! what a pile of s'hite!

can we please stop with this s'hite talk that we were all presented with false numbers and dodgy 'books': this is country ffs, not some back street newsagents!

Cavehill Red

thebigbiffo wrote: »

can somebody please define these 'books' for me?

THERE ARE NO BOOKS FFS!!

there are and were freely available numbers from the dept of finance relating to income and expenditure - there were yearly budgets and updates. nobody gave false numbers and there was no dodgy accounting.

there was bad policy, planning, implementation, foresight etc etc and the list is endless - and each and every policy could be torn apart at will at the time by rabbitte et al.. they didn't/couldn't do it then and try ram it down my throat now that they did! what a pile of s'hite!

can we please stop with this s'hite talk that we were all presented with false numbers and dodgy 'books': this is country ffs, not some back street newsagents!

Here's the books for 07, Biffo.
http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=-1&CatID=13&StartDate=1+January+2007