Pat Rabbitte, short memory?

Wibbs

prinz wrote: »

Of course the Euro had something to do with it. However some countries from outside the EU/Euro also fell into the trap, and some countries within the EU/Eurozone didn't. So the extent to which the euro had an effect is debatable and an easy out.

No it's really not. Stand back and graph our inflation, our higher wages and property bubble from 1990 to 2000. And what do you see? Right well then stick a line on that graph were we joined the Euro. Even Stevie Wonder will spot the connection. Then even if we had somebody in politics with one eye and half a brain there was little we could have done on the currency front as we were tied into the economic wishes of Germany and France. One size does not fit all. Not in a currency with such a wide range of economies and societies under it. And lets look at the other "PIGS" nations. Take that graph and plot their growth and inflation against when the Euro came in. Then look at Germany and France at the same time. Then sit back an think on who benefited most from it and who had the ability to drive it. Now they're paying out, but they'll get back more in the long term. You'll be a long time waiting for another Irish government to ask heavy questions of Brussels again.There's all sorts of rhetoric being spouted about sovereignty at the moment. IMHO we lost a helluva lot of it when we signed up to the Euro. And this is coming from someone who happily voted Yes to Lisbon I, but who voted No to Maastricht.

The whataboutery of non Euro countries doesn't quite fly either. Iceland in particular was a different kettle of fiskur to Ireland. Oh sure we may have had other issues because of muppets running the banks/governments, but we could as RR outlines below countered that far more easily. We would also spotted the feedback loop a lot more easily. A nation that gives up it's currency and therefore it's basic fiscal control to an outside source, is a nation as far as finance goes in name only. In any event while some whitter on about being European(with some reason to), financially we're a hellva lot less than a country in mainland Europe. The majority of our trade is either with the UK or the US.

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Interest rates, historically, were much higher in Ireland than during the ECB, and further, the ECB rates were much lower than the historical German Lombard rate. Because Germany wasn't growing fast enough - nor France either.

The rate for ireland was below inflation, so the interest rates were negative: if an independent Irish Central Bank was tasked with fighting inflation it would have increased the interest rates to above inflation, and probably about 200 basis points about inflation. So we would have had interest rates at about 7% for most of the 2000's.

In this reading, the ECB is the main culprit.

This.

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Is there any possible answer from people who dont like to be reminded that no political party had a policy to reduce house prices than ad homimen attacks on the poster as a FF supporter?

Bang another drum.

Yep exactly and more to the point I've never been a FF supporter.

Wibbs

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Policies to reduce houseprices would have been a disaster - a party with those policies would have been laughed out of it by 'de peeple'.

Why? House prices had climbed in the 90's. For a couple of reasons. For a start this country had a baby boom between 65-75 and those people were starting to settle down and needed houses. Secondly the prices themselves needed some upward adjustment as we had among the lowest in Europe at the time. So an upward swing was expected. But the inertia caused by going with the Euro massively over swung it. If interest rates had remained high to take the foot of the throttle as any strong economy would do, this would naturally keep the madness in check. On the back of that cheap, damn near free credit would have not have been nearly as available to Irish banks and customers. The government would not have had to go to de peeeeple. What happened entirely because of the Euro was the interest rates halved overnight. In a strong economy. That's a recipe for disaster and quite a few were saying this at the time.

What we needed was a government that was not incentivised (think: Galway Tent) to stoke the bubble, and took steps to moderate it and ensure that a) the banks and b) the state were not at risk of financial annihilation. These are not things that you would normally have in your manifesto as they are so blindingly obvious (unless of course you are following FF into government after they've had a long turn at running things).

Two things: first I've been around the "tents" in my time. Don't kid yourself into thinking it's only FF'rs. Same with crooked local councils. Secondly in your first lines you're suggesting that "Policies to reduce houseprices would have been a disaster", yet in these lines you're suggesting a government could do just that. Tell me how? Tell me how one could do that without the ability to change interest rates, or staunch the flow of cheap credit?

FG and Labour and all the others have their weaknesses but to say that they all would have steered us into the same disaster is ludicrous (and totally unprovable)

Your last three words are the meat of the issue and you're dead right, but IMHO that also gives carte blanche to those who will now with the benefit of hindsight claim they would do it completely differently. I'd put money that in a parallel universe as we speak, Boards.ie's servers are weighed down with people congratulating Pat for lambasting Pat, for much the same things only the surnames are reversed. I'll get back to ye when I've perfected my quantum wormhole technology when it's stable enough to post a link

marco_polo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And if you think that anyone else would have got into bed with the developers, not regulated the banks, then bankrupted the country to bail out the banks, you're a Fianna Failure.

Oh FFS, there was nothing 'inevitable' about the mess we ended up in, there were more than enough warning signs for the best part of a decade that any competent government could have recognised and acted upon to avert disaster.

Executive Steve

DeVore wrote: »

"Economic growth and prosperity have changed the face of our country. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state has been achieved.... Ireland is no longer the failed entity of the past."—Pat Rabbitte, 2007 (source http://www.labour.ie/manifesto/1.html)


A pox on ALL their houses.

DeV.

Ah come on Tom, that's totally disingenuous - he said that at a time LONG before the economy was tanked due to disastrous mismanagement of the banking crisis, and for what it's worth I think that's hardly a controversial statement to have made at the time.

brianthebard

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Btw I went to the Labour manifesto to scoff a bit ( since I remembered the stamp duty bit), but the last bit I quoted stopped the scoffing. They should have got my vote had I read all the manifestos. ( As it happens I didnt vote in Ireland that year - I registered in England).

Excellent posts, I don't expect everyone to support labour (they don't truly represent me) but an acknowledgement of the fact that they have policies, and might even have had the policies to cushion this bust, is the least I expect of anyone seriously entering into debate about the party. Its complete faux intellectualism to claim that the parties in this country are all the same, its 'look at me, I'm smarter than you fools who vote for parties cause you believe things they say!' It doesn't help the political debate in this country and its not smart.

Morlar

brianthebard wrote: »

Its complete faux intellectualism to claim that the parties in this country are all the same, its 'look at me, I'm smarter than you fools who vote for parties cause you believe things they say!' It doesn't help the political debate in this country and its not smart.

They would be fundamentally opposed to making the cuts that I think are necessary that's why I could not support them and don't want to see them in a coalition either unless it is the only way to keep the greens out of a coalition.

evercloserunion

DeVore wrote: »

"Economic growth and prosperity have changed the face of our country. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state has been achieved.... Ireland is no longer the failed entity of the past."—Pat Rabbitte, 2007 (source http://www.labour.ie/manifesto/1.html)


A pox on ALL their houses.

DeV.

What's wrong with what he said? During the 90s this country experienced a lot of sustainable economic growth. Even now that the FF-stoked bubble has burst, we are still a hell of a lot more advanced then we were when the state was founded, and even than we were in the 70s and 80s. I credit those advances largely to EU membership, but that's irrelevant. The fact is that the property bubble was not the only source of prosperity we Irish have ever seen, as you seem to believe. You're delusional if you don't think we are better off now than we were in the 1920s.

It's amazing how quickly some people will throw logic out the window to have a go at Labour.

Wibbs

Executive Steve wrote: »

Ah come on Tom, that's totally disingenuous - he said that at a time LONG before the economy was tanked due to disastrous mismanagement of the banking crisis, and for what it's worth I think that's hardly a controversial statement to have made at the time.

In 2007? when we had one of the biggest commodity bubbles since the dutch tulip madness. It was plain to see at the time that it was simply unsustainable. So either he was a bit slow, or he simply didn't read the so called cooked books. If he had(like others did) he would have seen we were simply building more houses than could ever be filled. In 2007 we built nearly twice as many houses in this country with it's population of 4 odd millions than in the UK with its population of 60+ millions. Eh hello?

brianthebard wrote: »

Excellent posts, I don't expect everyone to support labour (they don't truly represent me) but an acknowledgement of the fact that they have policies, and might even have had the policies to cushion this bust, is the least I expect of anyone seriously entering into debate about the party. Its complete faux intellectualism to claim that the parties in this country are all the same, its 'look at me, I'm smarter than you fools who vote for parties cause you believe things they say!' It doesn't help the political debate in this country and its not smart.

Oh I do agree. Contrary to what some here have accused me of, I'm no FF'r and can see that others are better, but my genuine concern is how better are they in actuality. I didnt see any of parties vote against their TD payrises in any number.

Of course this is now largely moot. If the IMF do come in, we'll essentially be told what to do. So the next crowd have that excuse.

kincsem

FatherLen wrote: »

there is a thread for this already you jerk. just look a few inches lower and you will see it. :mad:

Mod: Poster banned for this comment.

Yeah, bit of a mistake criticising Tom Murphy, one of the owners of boards.ie.

Hi Tom.

brianthebard

Wibbs wrote: »

In 2007? when we had one of the biggest commodity bubbles since the dutch tulip madness. It was plain to see at the time that it was simply unsustainable. So either he was a bit slow, or he simply didn't read the so called cooked books. If he had(like others did) he would have seen we were simply building more houses than could ever be filled. In 2007 we built nearly twice as many houses in this country with it's population of 4 odd millions than in the UK with its population of 60+ millions. Eh hello?

Out of interest can you tell me when he made this comment/speech in 2007? the difference between saying it in jan and december is night and day, another aspect that Devore left out.

nacho libre

Pal wrote: »

WTF would he have done ?
.

He graduated with a MPhil in Economics from Oxord. So unlike Brian Lenihan he may well have been able to challenge the advice from his officials in the department of finance and others who were giving advice to the government. it would seem Brian was out of his depth as evidenced by his late night call to David mcWilliams.
Also Bruton and others warned that the property sector was overheating at the time, but of course Bertie the great was calling such people moaners and doomsayers who should commit suicide.

The Muppet

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i'll take a stab at that yes...

i sincerely believe that the screws were turned on us by the EU to accept a loan simply to save their own asses and the asses of spain and portugal. i dont think there was any intention from gov to apply for EU/IMF loans. i believe the story was fed to the BBC from the EU to heap pressure on the gov and i think their initial reaction was 'no way, we dont need to go to the bond markets for 6 months so we'll ride this out till then before making a decision', hence the initial denials. the speculation became rampant and more pressure was applied from all around europe until eventually they were persuaded to talk about a loan in some way - the meeting of finance ministers didn't help matters.

i dont think it was bare faced lies last weekend - i dont think they realised when making those denials how strong the pressue was about to become. do you seriously think a party loyalists like biffo (and even if he is useless, you cant deny he'd FF to the bone) would want to go down in history as the man who let in the IMF...i dont think so.

Bottom line with me is they told bare face lies to the electorate, they could have told the truth or just refused to comment. There is no excuse for lieing to us, they have absolutely no right to do that. It's time for them to go now they have lost what little respect there was left for them.

Earthhorse

Just watched this clip on YouTube. Have to say it's not all it was built up to be.

parker kent

super_furry wrote: »

In 2007 economic growth and prosperity HAD changed the face of our country and. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state HAD been achieved.

Pat Rabbitte and his party were not privy to the true reasons as to why this appeared to have happened though, and were unaware - like everyone else in the country - of the crimes that Fianna Fail were committing against the state.

Anybody in Ireland could have read reports from several world institutions predicting a burst to the property bubble. The first major report on this was in 2000. A leader of a major national party that spews the rubbish that they ALL say should be ashamed of the way this type of information was ignored and buried.

The blustering hypocrisy seen from people who stand to gain from the current situation is sickening. And before anybody comes in with the usual lines that people saying such things are defending Fianna Fáil, I include them in this comment. They all ignored the comments and advice of people who actually knew what they were talking about.

And they will always do this when the populist thing differs from such opinions. People did not want to hear about doom and gloom between 2000 and 2008 and no politician or party would have survived if they made any attempt to change the status quo. It is a lie to say that nobody predicted a downturn.

Edit: Bruton really should have tried harder to emphasize the reliance the boom had on property. He mentioned it every now and then, but Fine Gael should have used it as one of their core objectives. Instead, they opted for the populist stamp duty policy.

storm2811

I've always loved Pat Rabbite.
Even though I used to pronounce it like Pat Rabbiteeee.

johnnyskeleton

DeVore wrote: »

"Economic growth and prosperity have changed the face of our country. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state has been achieved.... Ireland is no longer the failed entity of the past."—Pat Rabbitte, 2007 (source http://www.labour.ie/manifesto/1.html)


A pox on ALL their houses.

DeV.

Put in context:

Ireland has a successful economy, but a society under strain. Hard working families across Ireland live life on a treadmill - a never-ending and ever more grinding cycle of traffic, work, and responsibility. Sections of our people continue to suffer disadvantage and deprivation. One in nine of our children live in poverty, and in some schools, one in three suffers severe literacy difficulties. Growing anti-social behaviour makes life miserable for vulnerable people and their communities. There are signs, particularly among our young people, of a society ill at ease with itself and in need of a fresh sense of purpose
...
The Fair Society is built on a prosperous and sustainable economy, personal liberty and social solidarity
....
Our economic strategy is based on the necessity to build a new platform of competitive advantage for Ireland, based on investment in people, infrastructure and ideas. We are firmly committed to fiscal stability, and in government will adhere to the terms of the EU Stability and Growth Pact, but that is not enough to ensure continued prosperity. We have concentrated particularly on the importance of knowledge in driving growth and prosperity. We reject the notion that inequality is good for economic growth, but rather see an inextricable link between life-long learning and long-term growth and prosperity

So he's saying that there was wealth but what had to be done was try to sustain that wealth, build infrastructure and remain competitive. He also said we should move away from the rat-race where people are commuting long hours living on a treadmill (while not express in this, the main reason for this was the housing bubble). He also indicated that they were committed to fiscal stability.

Hardly the same as the FF policy of "Spend like the bejayus to buy all the votes you can, keep borrowing and ignore the increasing hole in the public finances, rely entirely on a property bubble rather than trying to diversify the economy and when things go bad ignore the Stability and Growth Pact and give a blank cheque to the banks".

This campaign to tar all politicial parties as the same is nonsense. The biggest thing that Labour would have done differently post-2007 is not to bail out the banks, which is the main reason why we are sunk as a nation. What they might have done during 1997-2007 is anybody's guess, however, I doubt they would have put all their eggs in one basket like FF did.

Finally, even if they were the same as FF in 2007, they have learned their lessons since then because of the crisis. FF, by contrast, have learned nothing and even as late as yesterday the Taoiseach was adamant that there was nothing wrong, international factors, banks well capitalised, we can run our own affairs etc.

I'm sorry DeV, but that's an incredibly cheap shot at Labour.

johnnyskeleton

Morlar wrote: »

They would be fundamentally opposed to making the cuts that I think are necessary that's why I could not support them and don't want to see them in a coalition either unless it is the only way to keep the greens out of a coalition.

But they are not fundamentally opposed to the cuts so perhaps now you can support them?

dusty207

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Yep totally agree. Very easy to do a shouty rant against FF when everyone is against them.

Yup, wasn't even a convincing rant, let loose for a couple of minutes then sat back on his comfortable chair, Tweedledee or Tweedledumb?. Shag all conviction imho, on/off switch kinda stuff.

DeVore

kincsem wrote: »

Yeah, bit of a mistake criticising Tom Murphy, one of the owners of boards.ie.

Hi Tom.

Plenty of people criticised me in this thread and didnt get banned. Your logic doesnt stack up to empirical evidence

Look, I'm not taking a cheapshot at Rabbitte but its rather galling coming from an opposition who did nothing and have just voted themselves pay-rises along with FF.

This mess is FF's to own, as much as anyone can really own it. The world did have a financial disaster but then we decided it wasnt bad enough for us and poured petrol on the flames and danced them higher.

I think FF simply thought they could shore up Anglo and their pals and we'd all take a bath on the cash. Then it got a little out of hand and they tried to fix things with a weak "cuts" budget which didnt go nearly far enough. More money was thrown at the situation and now we are here. They should never ever be elected again.

The only saving grace is that maybe the IMF will force someone to do something now.

As for the timing, in fact this is probably the BEST time for us to be negotiating with them. If we were backs to the wall and facing imminent bankruptcy, we might as well bend over and drop our pants. At this time we actually have the "we dont want your money" card to play. Its our only card and we need to get everything we can out of it.

Its not much but its *something*.

DeV.

Amhran Nua

brianthebard wrote: »

Excellent posts, I don't expect everyone to support labour (they don't truly represent me) but an acknowledgement of the fact that they have policies, and might even have had the policies to cushion this bust, is the least I expect of anyone seriously entering into debate about the party.

Nationalising the banks wouldn't have helped very much. Doing a debt for equity swap, that's the ticket. As for their long-term growth focus, that was directly contradicted by their earlier policy statements, so it might be best to look at their narrow focus proposals rather than their broad aspirations.

Right now as far as I can see, they are trading on Gilmore's charisma. What new policies have they got to get us out of this mess?

Pompey Magnus

Fianna Fail made this mess and they deserve every bit of condemnation and scorn for it, they failed the Irish people. However the opposition failed the Irish people too, they are paid by the Irish tax payer to call the government up on their bad decisions before it is too late, not to wait until the damage has done and then make cheap shots to maximise their seats in any imminent election. The concept of an opposition is important in any kind of democracy and they did not do their job, they never called a halt to the property madness as it was easier to just go with flow. The idea that their was some kind of shady Government conspiracy to "cook the books" is complete nonsense and an easy excuse for a lazy oppostion.

The Labour party did not make this mess, but they still failed to their job for the Irish people so where Rabbitte calls for FF to leave the Dail in disgrace he is spot on, they should, but so too should alot of the members from Rabbitte's side of the house.

Wibbs

brianthebard wrote: »

Out of interest can you tell me when he made this comment/speech in 2007? the difference between saying it in jan and december is night and day, another aspect that Devore left out.

Actually Jan or Dec would make no substantive difference at all. The property bubble was running strong from 2001 on. It was warming up before, but went white hot after.

DeVore wrote: »

Look, I'm not taking a cheapshot at Rabbitte but its rather galling coming from an opposition who did nothing and have just voted themselves pay-rises along with FF

Bingo. Like I said earlier how many of these upstanding members of the Dail said no to their payrises and other perks? About the only times the dail seats were packed to the rafters was when they were voting on such. ALL sides. All had their piggies noses in the trough. From what I recall Joe Higgins was one of the few actively suggesting the payrises were daft and I admire him for that and other things even though I'm no far left winger.

brianthebard

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually Jan or Dec would make no substantive difference at all. The property bubble was running strong from 2001 on. It was warming up before, but went white hot after.

No it would have made a huge difference, at the start of the year things still looked manageable, at the end of the year even FF realised they were in for hard times. As it stands now that JS has shown us Devore was quoting out of context it makes even more of a difference.

cleremy jarkson

brianthebard wrote: »

No it would have made a huge difference, at the start of the year things still looked manageable, at the end of the year even FF realised they were in for hard times. As it stands now that JS has shown us Devore was quoting out of context it makes even more of a difference.

This is true. It actually does make a massive difference as I think 2007 really was our make or break year; after that it was too late for a soft landing.

Monty Burnz

Wibbs wrote: »

Why? House prices had climbed in the 90's. For a couple of reasons. For a start this country had a baby boom between 65-75 and those people were starting to settle down and needed houses. Secondly the prices themselves needed some upward adjustment as we had among the lowest in Europe at the time. So an upward swing was expected. But the inertia caused by going with the Euro massively over swung it. If interest rates had remained high to take the foot of the throttle as any strong economy would do, this would naturally keep the madness in check. On the back of that cheap, damn near free credit would have not have been nearly as available to Irish banks and customers. The government would not have had to go to de peeeeple. What happened entirely because of the Euro was the interest rates halved overnight. In a strong economy. That's a recipe for disaster and quite a few were saying this at the time.
Two things: first I've been around the "tents" in my time. Don't kid yourself into thinking it's only FF'rs. Same with crooked local councils. Secondly in your first lines you're suggesting that "Policies to reduce houseprices would have been a disaster", yet in these lines you're suggesting a government could do just that. Tell me how? Tell me how one could do that without the ability to change interest rates, or staunch the flow of cheap credit?
Your last three words are the meat of the issue and you're dead right, but IMHO that also gives carte blanche to those who will now with the benefit of hindsight claim they would do it completely differently. I'd put money that in a parallel universe as we speak, Boards.ie's servers are weighed down with people congratulating Pat for lambasting Pat, for much the same things only the surnames are reversed. I'll get back to ye when I've perfected my quantum wormhole technology when it's stable enough to post a link

Hmm. Where to start. Well, your first point does not really disagree with or counter my point that any party in opposition that came along and promised to reduce house prices would have got short shrift from the electorate. I think we can all agree on that one?

Secondly, I agree with you that at council level, there was surely corruption on the part of all of the parties in cahoots with various developers. But only FF were in cahoots with them at a national level, in a position to facilitate them with tax breaks (which they did) or curtail them with proper regulation (which they didn't).

How to stop the flow of cheap credit? Tell the regulator that only 3 * earnings or 5 * earnings or whatever is safe for a bank to lend on mortgages. Done at a stroke of the pen. Instead we had 10 * earnings. Tell the regulator that 90% was the most that a bank could lend against a PPR. Or 85%. Or 80%. Instead we had 100% (and more).

There would have been ructions from de peeple unfortunately. That's a problem with our electorate: to dumb to know when you are trying to look out for them, and too credulous when listening to vested interests like the estate agency groups or the banks.

Finally, it I agree it is equally unprovable that FG or Lab would have acted differently, but rather than proving anything, this just demonstrates that there is very little point debating that point at all.

nlgbbbblth

DeVore wrote: »

F*ck FF, they are primarily to blame.

DeV.

Hard to believe that with a name like yours. :rolleyes:

Wibbs

brianthebard wrote: »

No it would have made a huge difference, at the start of the year things still looked manageable, at the end of the year even FF realised they were in for hard times. As it stands now that JS has shown us Devore was quoting out of context it makes even more of a difference.

With respect are you that entrenched in your argument? Good God man if he had said that at the start of the "manageable" year he would have been happily dreaming as soundly as if he had been in bed with FF, if he had said it at the end he would have been sectionable. Either way he would have been wrong and that's the substantive point. I agree with the OP, it's great he decides to have 20/20 vision today. Where was that vigour and passion in the last 10 years? Where was the vote of no confidence from the other side of the house when it was plain to see we were dangerously inflated? Where were the calls of "nay" when they voted in their wage and pension increases?

Wibbs

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Hmm. Where to start. Well, your first point does not really disagree with or counter my point that any party in opposition that came along and promised to reduce house prices would have got short shrift from the electorate. I think we can all agree on that one?

Secondly, I agree with you that at council level, there was surely corruption on the part of all of the parties in cahoots with various developers. But only FF were in cahoots with them at a national level, in a position to facilitate them with tax breaks (which they did) or curtail them with proper regulation (which they didn't).

How to stop the flow of cheap credit? Tell the regulator that only 3 * earnings or 5 * earnings or whatever is safe for a bank to lend on mortgages. Done at a stroke of the pen. Instead we had 10 * earnings. Tell the regulator that 90% was the most that a bank could lend against a PPR. Or 85%. Or 80%. Instead we had 100% (and more).

There would have been ructions from de peeple unfortunately. That's a problem with our electorate: to dumb to know when you are trying to look out for them, and too credulous when listening to vested interests like the estate agency groups or the banks.

Finally, it I agree it is equally unprovable that FG or Lab would have acted differently, but rather than proving anything, this just demonstrates that there is very little point debating that point at all.

I agree, but my point was the biggest mistake in all of this was getting into the Euro. All this crap about sovereignty today when we signed it away in dribs and drabs for the last twenty years. Not always for the worse BTW. I believe in a European economic community. Even more for a European Community, but I'm bloody dubious about a European Union. But most especially a common fiscal policy weighted towards the big boys.

In essence we signed away a large chunk of our economic control with the masstricht treaty and it was a large reason, if not the biggest for our(and Spain/Portugal/Italy's) boom and bust.

Now of course our more naive Europhiles will now say "ah well they're gonna help bail us out" ahh isnt that nice. Just as nice as when they set the interest rates to favour themselves. OK so they'll take a hit, but do you really think them "helping" us is not gonna come at a price? Of course it is. They've essentially bought this country's silence and complicity and any others they "help". Watch and see. Come back to this thread in ten years time.

brianthebard

Wibbs wrote: »

With respect are you that entrenched in your argument? Good God man if he had said that at the start of the "manageable" year he would have been happily dreaming as soundly as if he had been in bed with FF, if he had said it at the end he would have been sectionable. Either way he would have been wrong and that's the substantive point. I agree with the OP, it's great he decides to have 20/20 vision today. Where was that vigour and passion in the last 10 years? Where was the vote of no confidence from the other side of the house when it was plain to see we were dangerously inflated? Where were the calls of "nay" when they voted in their wage and pension increases?

Hold on Devore purposefully misrepresented Rabbitte, and even though you've been shown that fact you continue to support that argument? And you say I'm entrenched? Ridiculous. Labour did not have control of the state's finances at the time the speech was made, end of. Labour would not have given a bank guarantee, end of. Its a complete fallacy to suggest Pat Rabbitte had no vigour or passion until now? I have no idea how people can come up with this nonsense, its the exact same as saying Labour have no policies. Well if you decide to rip up the page with Labour's policies on it, then stuff the shreds in your ears while shouting 'lalala I'm not listening to your policies' then yes you're going to miss them but otherwise you're just intentionally ignoring straightforward facts.

parker kent

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

This is true. It actually does make a massive difference as I think 2007 really was our make or break year; after that it was too late for a soft landing.

We were in the shít at that stage already. Any talk of a soft landing in 2007 is nonsense. Peak house prices were February 2007. The bubble existed for much longer than people admit.

I did a thesis on this topic and it is amazing how much was ignored. As early as 2000, prominent outside organisations had identified a property bubble. Fast forward to 2007 and Ireland and Spain were at the peak of the property bubble and many people who should have been listened to were saying it would burst imminently.

OPENROAD

brianthebard wrote: »

Hold on Devore purposefully misrepresented Rabbitte, and even though you've been shown that fact you continue to support that argument? And you say I'm entrenched? Ridiculous. Labour did not have control of the state's finances at the time the speech was made, end of. Labour would not have given a bank guarantee, end of. Its a complete fallacy to suggest Pat Rabbitte had no vigour or passion until now? I have no idea how people can come up with this nonsense, its the exact same as saying Labour have no policies. Well if you decide to rip up the page with Labour's policies on it, then stuff the shreds in your ears while shouting 'lalala I'm not listening to your policies' then yes you're going to miss them but otherwise you're just intentionally ignoring straightforward facts.

Re Universal healthcare, how much will it cost and how will it be paid for?

parker kent

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree, but my point was the biggest mistake in all of this was getting into the Euro. All this crap about sovereignty today when we signed it away in dribs and drabs for the last twenty years. Not always for the worse BTW. I believe in a European economic community. Even more for a European Community, but I'm bloody dubious about a European Union. But most especially a common fiscal policy weighted towards the big boys.

In essence we signed away a large chunk of our economic control with the masstricht treaty and it was a large reason, if not the biggest for our(and Spain/Portugal/Italy's) boom and bust.

Now of course our more naive Europhiles will now say "ah well they're gonna help bail us out" ahh isnt that nice. Just as nice as when they set the interest rates to favour themselves. OK so they'll take a hit, but do you really think them "helping" us is not gonna come at a price? Of course it is. They've essentially bought this country's silence and complicity and any others they "help". Watch and see. Come back to this thread in ten years time.

On the flip side, many have suggested that us being in the Euro has helped stave off a currency crisis and a resulting twin crisis. A small currency like the Punt might have been a noose around our necks.

Jumpy

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Pat Rabbitte didn't have access to the cooked government books when he said that.
Pat Rabbitte was taking the lying government ministers at their word when they said the economic outlook for Ireland was never better.
Pat Rabbitte was not aware that Fianna Fail were assisting their Galway tent banker pals in defrauding the state.
If you're looking to blame Pat Rabbitte for the mess we're currently in, you're sadly deluded.

This post is WAAAAY funnier when you read "Pat Rabitte" in the same voice used for "Matt Damon" in Team America.

*teehee*

Wibbs

brianthebard wrote: »

Hold on Devore purposefully misrepresented Rabbitte, and even though you've been shown that fact you continue to support that argument? And you say I'm entrenched? Ridiculous.

How did he misrepresent Rabbitte? It's nowhere near a "fact".

Labour did not have control of the state's finances at the time the speech was made, end of.

Eh he was in the opposition. You know the side of the house that points fingers, asks questions, shows an alternative. Yet when faced with the screamingly bloody obvious(and yes even I who is not the brightest economically said similar) he came ut with that guff?

Labour would not have given a bank guarantee, end of.

Possibly. Maybe even probably, but we don't know that. Having observed both sides of the house vying for votes in the good times, it's amazing how silent they were then. Worse than silent, when they did blow forth it was missing the point by a country mile to score points.

Its a complete fallacy to suggest Pat Rabbitte had no vigour or passion until now? I have no idea how people can come up with this nonsense, its the exact same as saying Labour have no policies.

Did he or FG call for a vote of no confidence at any stage beyond Dail blowharding? Did L or FG refuse to agree to wage and pension increases at any stage? Did L or FG table a motion to curb wayward inflation and the housing bubble? That would be a no. Both were bloody useless for the most part. The opposition in this country operated on the reactive principle, not the proactive. 9 times out of 10 they reacted when the gobshíte FF's said or did something. There was a paltry fund of vigour and or brains to draw from on both sides of the house.

Well if you decide to rip up the page with Labour's policies on it, then stuff the shreds in your ears while shouting 'lalala I'm not listening to your policies' then yes you're going to miss them but otherwise you're just intentionally ignoring straightforward facts.

Again show me just one time where Labour(or FG) TDs voted en masse against upping their wages and pensions. Yea bit of a sticking point there Ted.

johnn

Ah I see......Pat Rabbitte is to blame.

Wibbs

parker kent wrote: »

On the flip side, many have suggested that us being in the Euro has helped stave off a currency crisis and a resulting twin crisis. A small currency like the Punt might have been a noose around our necks.

That's possible yes, but we would have had more control to reduce that risk. For a start we could have raised interest rates and or devalued so it wasn't worth speculating on. Then again with the muppets we vote in good sense may well not have prevailed.

Wibbs

johnn wrote: »

Ah I see......Pat Rabbitte is to blame.

Nope. Not at all. Simplistic response to a complex question. Of course he's not to blame. FF and their cronies are. But those across the house as a viable opposition that could have seen the problems and made enough noise about it to make a difference? Then yes. And not just him.

Wibbs

OPENROAD wrote: »

Re Universal healthcare, how much will it cost and how will it be paid for?

That's a problem with the left in general. Often truly clever and inventive and proactive in spending a countries wealth very wisely, sadly what they tend to lack is the ability to create that wealth to the point where they can spend it.

Biggins

Minister hangs head in shame in TV roasting

IT WAS a public execution never seen before on Irish television as a shame-faced Government minister was slaughtered before the nation.

The hapless minister Pat Carey looked ashen as the Labour party's Pat Rabbitte unleashed a volley which summed up the mood of the nation.

After two years of failing to avoid our IMF doom, and then for continuing to lie about it, minister Carey had no apology or excuse.

Instead he dropped his head and stared glumly at the floor as Rabbitte told him: "You ought to be ashamed of yourself."

Waffle

The Labour justice spokesman left the Government in no doubt about the reality out there -- a reality that our millionaire ministers seem oblivious to.

Mr Rabbitte spoke for everyone when he unleashed his controlled fury which articulated the public's dismay as the IMF takes over our finances on the Minister for Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs on Prime Time. Even before his blistering attack, Mr Rabbitte loudly plonked his glass of water on the studio desk while Mr Carey was speaking.

It was clear he could barely stand to listen to more Government waffle.

"After failing to supervise the regulation of the banks, this Government fails to act between the collapse of Northern Rock and 12 months later, the 28th of September," Mr Rabbitte calmly said.

As Mr Carey tried to defend his administration, the Dublin South West TD had had enough.

"You ought to be ashamed to show your face in this studio after what you have brought our country to penury tonight and the damage that you have done to people's livelihoods and start the young people emmigrating again," Mr Rabbitte said.

"You have destroyed this economy and you engaged in lies over the weekend.

"You denied it and then you went on to pretend that it's Ireland coming to the rescue of Europe," he added, as Mr Carey could only look on in silence.

"It's about time you went because you can do no more damage to this country. And coming on here with your 'auld palaver' about this and that.

"You didn't do anything to avoid the crisis that was coming down the tracks at us.

"You maintained property-based tax incentives until you inflated the bubble that has brought us to the state we're in.

"And now you come out here saying this is someone else's fault not our fault," he told Mr Carey.

Problem

"It's the fault of the Irish Government and you ought to be ashamed of where you brought us tonight."

Mr Carey tried to defend himself, saying "No, I'm not ashamed."

To which Mr Rabbitte quickly responded: "Well you ought to be.

"That's the problem with you -- you're not ashamed. You don't have any shame."

When he eventually had the opportunity, Mr Carey weakly defended himself and his Government colleagues.

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/minister-hangs-head-in-shame-in-tv-roasting-2427671.html

waxon-waxoff

Rabbitte is no better than FF. Where was he a few years ago when things were getting out of control? Its easy to complain now when its too late.

He is part of the elite and out of touch with the electorate. He takes home 100k a year and sends his kids to private school.

Biggins

Biggins wrote: »

Minister hangs head in shame in TV roasting



http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/minister-hangs-head-in-shame-in-tv-roasting-2427671.html

Just watched the footage there, and while I agree with what Rabbitte says, the Herald couldn't even report on this independently. What a rag.

skelliser

As far as im concerned you can only judge a party by their record in government.
Labour where last in gov. in the 94-97 rainbow coalition.
That gov. had an excellent Minister of Finance in Ruairi Quinn.

This is how that gov left the country:

free third level fees
surplus deficit
economic growth
rising employment

contrast that to how FF will leave the country.

This FF propaganda that they are all the same is bull.

Vote them in and judge them on their actions. Until then what they did or didnt do in opposition is all hearsay as far as im concerned.

For too long we have had FF and there cronies in the media in power. They have grown accustomed to lying and misleading the public. Now the party is over they are trying to deflect the blame and drag the opposition in with this "they are all the same" bollox.
If you want to think like that, well thats fine. But in doing that nothing will change and we will be destined to repeat the same mistakes.

Im no fan of the unions but thats not all labour are beholden too. They do have a social conscience unlike FF where the sole objective is power.
Its great to see a country which is closing public hospitals whilst opening private ones.
That would not happen under labours watch.

And if your worried about labours links with the unions well then vote for a labour/fine Gael gov. They arent friendS with the unions and so will cancel each other out.
Like wise some of Fine Gaels policies will not get passed labour.
What im saying is we will get the best of both worlds.

THEY CAN DO NO WORSE THEN FIANNA FAIL!

Worm Tamer

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

Rabbitte is no better than FF. Where was he a few years ago when things were getting out of control? Its easy to complain now when its too late.

He is part of the elite and out of touch with the electorate. He takes home 100k a year and sends his kids to private school.

great so
who will you vote for so ? not jenda ?

Pal

Pat's a short memory.

Clown didn't see it coming anymore than the Gvernment did.

GFY Pat

skelliser

"The neo-liberal right must also take responsibility for the damage that it has done to the Irish economy. This includes failure to invest in infrastructure in a timely and efficient manner which undermined competitiveness; the overheating of the economy which pushed up inflation and damaged competitiveness; the failure to devise and implement a serious strategy for balanced regional development; the
botched privatisation of broadband infrastructure; the failure of other economic regulatory regimes;"

the record does not stand scrutiny, particularly
where the professions are concerned. That costs in Ireland are among the highest
in the EU is a testament, both to the overheating of the economy by Minister
McCreevy.....

but in a context, as part of a
broader configuration of social organisation, and subject to effective regulation
and/or the promotion of real competition.

Regulation must be
open and accountable, and clearly be functioning in the consumer interest.

While competition is to be
preferred, where it can’t work, we need effective regulation.

Pat Rabbitte 2004
http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/fair_economy.pdf

Pal

skelliser wrote: »

Pat Rabbitte 2004
http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/fair_economy.pdf

thanks.

what a tosser !

johnn

Looks like Pat had the memory of a Goldfish rather than that of an Elep....Rabbit.

DeVore

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

Hard to believe that with a name like yours. :rolleyes:

haha... thats a joke, right? please say you are joking...?

DeV.

Pal

God help this country if that gobshyte Pat Rabbitte ran the place.
Strange how he's even elected but obviously somebody voted for him.

On second thoughts he couldn't be any worse than the current arsehole.