The Heaven Fallacy

IamtheWalrus

If heaven is supposed to be a place where the occupants are in eternal happiness, what happens in this scenario:

I have a child and later I die and go to heaven. Whilst there, I'm looking forward to being reunited with my child a few years later after he/she dies. I wait and wait, decades later and my child still doesn't arrive. After sufficient time has passed, I can come to the conclusion that if my child is not in heaven, he/she must be in hell. Knowledge of this fact should make me unhappy. But how can I be? I'm in heaven.

You could say that maybe the child is in a different part of heaven but that would still make me unhappy because we still haven't been reunited.

Beruthiel

God does the Jedi wave and you're sorted.

Delirium

Dades

Heaven clearly requires a lobotomy.

Like the guy in the Matrix who sells everyone out and asks to be put back in, rich, with no memory of his previous life.

Galvasean

You'll be too busy riding supermodels to notice.

GO_Bear

I assumed they reveled in the fact that they are in heaven and sinners are in hell.

IamtheWalrus

GO_Bear wrote: »

I assumed they reveled in the fact that they are in heaven and sinners are in hell.

I would suspect most would revel in the fact their child was in hell though.

magicbastarder

if you raised your child in such a way that your child went to hell, you are obviously a Bad Parent and would not make it to heaven in the first place.

IamtheWalrus

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you raised your child in such a way that your child went to hell, you are obviously a Bad Parent and would not make it to heaven in the first place.

Maybe. But what if your child went to the darkside when you popped your clogs.

Galvasean

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you raised your child in such a way that your child went to hell, you are obviously a Bad Parent and would not make it to heaven in the first place.

Let's replace 'child' with 'parents'. Commanadments say you have to love them, so you'd have to be sad if they didn't get to heaven even if they were wicked.

liamw

I love how you picked such a specific scenario to argue against heaven. The concept of heaven itself is such utter nonsense, it's not really worth considering these scenarios seriously is it?

GO_Bear

There has been enough serious discussion here the last week :O with morality and that crappy book :pac::pac:

I think we need to take something lightly !

How about a thread about the most ridiculous religious concepts/****e

Galvasean

liamw wrote: »

I love how you picked such a specific scenario to argue against heaven. The concept of heaven itself is such utter nonsense, it's not really worth considering these scenarios seriously is it?

I'm sure if you were debating a theist or someone who was uncertain on the matter you'd get a better discussion with such scenarios as opposed to just calling it all nonsense and refusing to engage in discussion.

Galvasean

GO_Bear wrote: »

How about a thread about the most ridiculous religious concepts/****e

Stickied at the top of the forum

IamtheWalrus

Maybe I should have posted in the Christianity forum.

GO_Bear

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Maybe I should have posted in the Christianity forum.

Hope you brought you riot gear for it ;D

Galvasean

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Maybe I should have posted in the Christianity forum.

Might be worth trying.

IamtheWalrus

Galvasean wrote: »

Might be worth trying.

I would like to hear their opinions. Mod, send her over.

Dades

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I would like to hear their opinions. Mod, send her over.

We were happy to have it, but if you want alternative opinions... MOVED.

GO_Bear

Thats fine , we are not good enough !

georgieporgy

Welcome to the Christianity forum. You are now in heaven.

GO_Bear

But where is Galvasean ?

IamtheWalrus

GO_Bear wrote: »

Thats fine , we are not good enough !

It probably wasn't suitable for the Atheist forum since no one there believes in a heaven to start with. I am interested in a theists view.

GO_Bear

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

It probably wasn't suitable for the Atheist forum since no one there believes in a heaven to start with. I am interested in a theists view.

I was only joking with you mate

Zombrex

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

It probably wasn't suitable for the Atheist forum since no one there believes in a heaven to start with. I am interested in a theists view.

Prepared to be unwhelmed :pac:

IamtheWalrus

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I am interested in a theists view.

"god works in mysterious ways and we can't understand the glory of god if/til we get there"

there you go

Zombrex

bluewolf wrote: »

"god works in mysterious ways and we can't understand the glory of god if/til we get there"

there you go

or

"He tells us what He will do, not necessarily how he will do it"

/thread

georgieporgy

GO_Bear wrote: »

But where is Galvasean ?

Sadly,Galvasean had to remain behind in the other place.

IamtheWalrus

Wicknight wrote: »

or

"He tells us what He will do, not necessarily how he will do it"

/thread

I can't figure out if you are serious or not.

Zombrex

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I can't figure out if you are serious or not.

I'm serious that this is the type of response you will get.

IamtheWalrus

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm serious that this is the type of response you will get.

Ah.. Phew!

Jester Minute

Welcome to hell. And before you ask, no, we do not have wifi...

Jokes aside, your question is a good one.

The truth of the matter is this: those souls who end up in hell are wretched and unlovable creatures. All goodness and love are gone. All that is left is really too horrible to comprehend. Since all that is good, all that makes us in any way good or lovable, the deprivation of God's grace on earth, and in hell, means that there is nothing there to love. So really, if you are in heaven, you will be in peace and love with God and you won't pay any heed to the damned souls, no matter who they are. I know this is hard to comprehend, but that is how it is.

Jester Minute

Jester Minute wrote: »

Welcome to hell. And before you ask, no, we do not have wifi...

Jokes aside, your question is a good one.

The truth of the matter is this: those souls who end up in hell are wretched and unlovable creatures. All goodness and love are gone. All that is left is really too horrible to comprehend. Since all that is good, all that makes us in any way good or lovable, the deprivation of God's grace on earth, and in hell, means that there is nothing there to love. So really, if you are in heaven, you will be in peace and love with God and you won't pay any heed to the damned souls, no matter who they are. I know this is hard to comprehend, but that is how it is.

Do you even have children?
Telling someone their children hypothetical or otherwise are wretched and unlovable doesn't sound too compassionate

IamtheWalrus

Jester Minute wrote: »

you won't pay any heed to the damned souls, no matter who they are.

This is hard to digest. Humans will pay heed, if the damned person is someone they loved. Unless of course, heaven changes humans and things that happened on earth become irrelevant. That would be like hiding the truth from the people in heaven. Doesn't really fit with the heaven model does it.

GO_Bear

Jester Minute wrote: »

Welcome to hell. And before you ask, no, we do not have wifi...

Jokes aside, your question is a good one.

The truth of the matter is this: those souls who end up in hell are wretched and unlovable creatures. All goodness and love are gone. All that is left is really too horrible to comprehend. Since all that is good, all that makes us in any way good or lovable, the deprivation of God's grace on earth, and in hell, means that there is nothing there to love. So really, if you are in heaven, you will be in peace and love with God and you won't pay any heed to the damned souls, no matter who they are. I know this is hard to comprehend, but that is how it is.

Can you actually be serious and make such a disgusting statement ?

Zombrex

bluewolf wrote: »

Do you even have children?
Telling someone their children hypothetical or otherwise are wretched and unlovable doesn't sound too compassionate

In fairness he isn't really doing that. He is saying that your child in hell with God's grace removed from him is wretched, like if your child was just evil all the time and had no good in him (and thus was unlovable).

Thus it is no longer your child as you knew him/her. Basically your child doesn't exist any more.

While that explains why you might not care about this being in hell, it doesn't explain though why you won't miss your child in heaven since your child is essentially dead in the literal sense in that he/she doesn't exist.

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

Do you even have children?
Telling someone their children hypothetical or otherwise are wretched and unlovable doesn't sound too compassionate

It's probably in the Bible somewhere though, no?

philologos

Shouldn't this be on the other side of the "divide"? :pac:

Gah, Dades, why did you do this to us?

Fanny Cradock

Yeah, I'm half thinking of chucking this back over the wall.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

georgieporgy

it's a very good question and it occurs to most people from time to time. Trying to reconcile the eternal loss of your children/ spouse etc while you sit cosily in heaven.
Some people,instead of searching for the answer, simply use it as another reason to 'prove' God doesn't exist. However ,if you know God and know he is a good loving father (etc), you can start with the assumption that there is a good answer to the question.
God loves your child as much as he(God) loves you, and in fact loves your child more than you do. He wants both of you to have eternal life. That is why he created you. All he wants is for you to love him back. (you and your child and all the rest of us). Now you can't be forced to love someone or something. That has to come from you alone and you have to be given complete freedom to make that choice. When you make your choice, it's what you really want, and all the rest of us who love you(and that includes God) will respect that choice.

PDN

There's a fundamental misconception underlying the question and most of the answers.

Our relationships with spouses, children etc are very meaningful to us in life because, relatively speaking, they are much more intimate than our relationships with someone we pass in the street.

In heaven (which btw is not eternity, but that's another matter) our intimacy with God will be such that it far outweighs our current levels of intimacy with children etc. Therefore the absence of a loved one may be no more of an issue than that girl that I thought I couldn't live without when I was 15 (can't remember her name now).

Genghiz Cohen

PDN wrote: »

There's a fundamental misconception underlying the question and most of the answers.

Our relationships with spouses, children etc are very meaningful to us in life because, relatively speaking, they are much more intimate than our relationships with someone we pass in the street.

In heaven (which btw is not eternity, but that's another matter) our intimacy with God will be such that it far outweighs our current levels of intimacy with children etc. Therefore the absence of a loved one may be no more of an issue than that girl that I thought I couldn't live without when I was 15 (can't remember her name now).

I'm not sure that makes sense.

GO_Bear

PDN wrote: »

There's a fundamental misconception underlying the question and most of the answers.

Our relationships with spouses, children etc are very meaningful to us in life because, relatively speaking, they are much more intimate than our relationships with someone we pass in the street.

In heaven (which btw is not eternity, but that's another matter) our intimacy with God will be such that it far outweighs our current levels of intimacy with children etc. Therefore the absence of a loved one may be no more of an issue than that girl that I thought I couldn't live without when I was 15 (can't remember her name now).

Are ye listening to what ye are saying ?

That is another disgusting comment. Atheism Vs Theism argument aside.

By the same rationality you will forget anybody you had connections with in this life, even if they are in heaven. You are using him as some kind of divine heroine to forget anything that occurred in your mortal life

wolfsbane

Wicknight wrote: »

In fairness he isn't really doing that. He is saying that your child in hell with God's grace removed from him is wretched, like if your child was just evil all the time and had no good in him (and thus was unlovable).

Thus it is no longer your child as you knew him/her. Basically your child doesn't exist any more.

While that explains why you might not care about this being in hell, it doesn't explain though why you won't miss your child in heaven since your child is essentially dead in the literal sense in that he/she doesn't exist.

Yes, Jester has put it well.

But your point needs addressed too. What your child really is cannot be established before their life is complete - they may appear to be lovely people now, but quite different when they get the opportunity to be really evil and get away with it. Were all of history's monsters vile little brats, or were some normal little kids? We can't tell for sure what any kid or adult will turn out like. We may find that the kind teenager is the established personality, but we may have a shock too.

So it is not a matter of the child you knew as lovely died and a new person took over. The real person came out. Only your hopes and assumptions died. In eternity the real persons are in heaven and in hell.

_________________________________________________________________
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Jester Minute

I'm not sure that picture has worked, so here is the link:

http://www.savagechickens.com/2009/01/orientation.html

Festus

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yeah, I'm half thinking of chucking this back over the wall.

I'll try to get something in before that happens.

The question is interesting. The answer however is beyond our comprehension because we do not have the capacity with our flesh and blood brains to deal with the reality of Heaven or Eternal life.

With our understanding of life we do not wish, as parents, to contemplate a life in Heaven without our children, or as children, do we wish to contemplate what it might be for our parents to contemplate a life in Heaven without us. All normal stuff and of course there may be some selfish children or damaged children who have no regard for their parents but that leads on to what is core in this concept.
Forgiveness.
Jesus tells us that we must forgive. It is part of the Lords Prayer so it is not just the Catholic concept of forgiveness through the Sacrament of Confession even if Jesus instituted that Himself. It is, or should be, core to every person who calls themselves Christian.
Jesus says that those wo do not forgive cannot expect forgiveness for themselves in (Matthew 6:14-15)
How many times have we heard people say that there are things or people they cannot forgive?
Can Catholics forgive abortionists or those who promote, support, facilitate abortion and abortion law? Of course we can for if we cannot we deny Gods instructions to us and deny ourselves a place in Heaven.
Can a boy or a girl, man or woman, who has been abused by a parent, relative, teacher, spouse, Garda, judge, doctor, priest, nun, social worker, neighbour, employer, stranger forgive them?
What if they cannot forgive them?
Can a Jew forgive a Nazi or an Israeli forgive an Arab? What happens because they cannot?
Can sectarian Catholics and Protestants forgive each other? Can the victims of IRA attrocities forgive those who changed their lives or the lives of people they know irreparably?
Think of the most evil act in history, the most evil regime, and if your own life was or is affected think on that. Can you forgive?
Jesus, on the cross, after the scourging and torment of crucifiction begged His Father to forgive His children who put His Son to such an awful, humiliating death for our sins. Even with the knowledge of Good and Evil, our hereditary gift from Adam and Eve, He still suggested we they did not know what they were doing. Following orders? The will of the people? Political expediency? If they knew He was God would that have stopped them?

Today there are those who think they know God, or better than God or think there is no God. Whatever they think they know, they don't.
We cannot imagine God or Heaven or ever hope to come close to an answer in this life.

Our human minds can comprehend forgiveness however. Our human will can forgive, with the help of the Holy Spirit, if we but try.
If parents can forgive their children and children forgive their parents, no matter what they do or how heinous, the OPs supposition is without foundation.

+

strobe

PDN wrote: »

In heaven (which btw is not eternity, but that's another matter)

Could you expand a bit on this PDN? Cheers.

PDN

strobe wrote: »

Could you expand a bit on this PDN? Cheers.

Gladly. The Christian hope for the future, as taught in the Bible and as believed by the Church for nearly 2000 years, is that at the end of time God will create a new heavens and a new earth where He will dwell with His people for all eternity. At that time we will be raised from the dead and dwell in new resurrected bodies.

Until that day, however, those who die in Christ go to be in the presence of the Lord (what we popularly think of as heaven).

Here's a rather good interview with NT Wright, Anglican Bishop of Durham, which explains it quite well: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/april/13.36.html

hivizman

PDN wrote: »

Here's a rather good interview with NT Wright, Anglican Bishop of Durham, which explains it quite well: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/april/13.36.html

Just to bring everyone up to date, Tom Wright retired from the Bishopric of Durham on 31 August 2010 and he is currently Research Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity at the University of St Andrews in Scotland.

Fanny Cradock

I was wondering when he was stepping down. I must check out who is his successor.