The Heaven Fallacy

strobe

PDN wrote: »

Gladly. The Christian hope for the future, as taught in the Bible and as believed by the Church for nearly 2000 years, is that at the end of time God will create a new heavens and a new earth where He will dwell with His people for all eternity. At that time we will be raised from the dead and dwell in new resurrected bodies.

Until that day, however, those who die in Christ go to be in the presence of the Lord (what we popularly think of as heaven).

Here's a rather good interview with NT Wright, Anglican Bishop of Durham, which explains it quite well: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/april/13.36.html

I'll watch the video when I get the time. Thanks.

So heaven is a kind of stop off point where people/souls hang out until the new Earth is set up? Does the new Earth last for eternity? Have you any opinion on why 'heaven' is in place rather than people just going straight to the new Earth?

I have more questions but I'd prefer to go a few at a time.

Soul Winner

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

If heaven is supposed to be a place where the occupants are in eternal happiness, what happens in this scenario:

I have a child and later I die and go to heaven. Whilst there, I'm looking forward to being reunited with my child a few years later after he/she dies. I wait and wait, decades later and my child still doesn't arrive. After sufficient time has passed, I can come to the conclusion that if my child is not in heaven, he/she must be in hell. Knowledge of this fact should make me unhappy. But how can I be? I'm in heaven.

You could say that maybe the child is in a different part of heaven but that would still make me unhappy because we still haven't been reunited.

What makes you so sure that it will be you that will be doing the worrying in heaven about other souls? Big big assumption that.

Festus

Soul Winner wrote: »

What makes you so sure that it will be you that will be doing the worrying in heaven about other souls? Big big assumption that.

There is also the big big assumption that Time exists in the afterlife.
To be able to understand the concept of Heaven or the Afterlife as Eternal one has to move away from the human concept of time.

sorry SW - that should be directed at IamThe Walrus.

Fanny Cradock

strobe wrote: »

Have you any opinion on why 'heaven' is in place rather than people just going straight to the new Earth?

It's not just the "new Earth". It's the new "heavens and the new Earth" - which is understood as the union between this creation (the universe) and God's realm/ dimension/ heaven or whatever you want to call it.

Festus

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It's not just the "new Earth". It's the new "heavens and the new Earth" - which is understood as the union between this creation (the universe) and God's realm/ dimension/ heaven or whatever you want to call it.

I thought that the concept that the current Heavens and Earth would pass away and there will be a new Heaven and Earth is pretty much a universal or catholic concept anyway and accepted by Catholics too? Are there other views?

Jester Minute

Festus wrote: »

I thought that the concept that the current Heavens and Earth would pass away and there will be a new Heaven and Earth is pretty much a universal or catholic concept anyway and accepted by Catholics too? Are there other views?

Who will take out the trash in the new heaven and the new earth?

chucken1

Jester Minute wrote: »

Welcome to hell. And before you ask, no, we do not have wifi...

Jokes aside, your question is a good one.

The truth of the matter is this: those souls who end up in hell are wretched and unlovable creatures. All goodness and love are gone. All that is left is really too horrible to comprehend. Since all that is good, all that makes us in any way good or lovable, the deprivation of God's grace on earth, and in hell, means that there is nothing there to love. So really, if you are in heaven, you will be in peace and love with God and you won't pay any heed to the damned souls, no matter who they are. I know this is hard to comprehend, but that is how it is.

Do you ever speak in plain English? Ive thought to post here a few times for info..but the way you go on....no

Jester Minute

chucken1 wrote: »

Do you ever speak in plain English? Ive thought to post here a few times for info..but the way you go on....no

Which bit was obscure - the bit about wifi or the other bit? the wifi reference was a joke concerning a chickens cartoon.

To simplify it, think of a person. Anyone will do. Then think of that person, minus everything that is good about them, and I do mean everything. Then think that what is left is what will go to hell. Not pretty, is it? So it is that if a soul winds up in hell, it will be divested of everything that is true, beautiful and good, and is simply left to its own misery and bitterness.

Fortunately for us, God loves us so very much, and He really wants us to be with Him, because he is our perfect joy and peace. Only in God can we be happy; without Him, we can only be miserable. In hell, we won't have any of the pleasures we can experience in this life. So no consolation there. There is no pleasure in hell. None whatsoever. So those folks who say hell will be good fun are sadly misguided.

Hell is simply the eternal separation from the ultimate of that which is true, good, and beautiful: God.

I hope this helps.

Festus

chucken1 wrote: »

Do you ever speak in plain English? Ive thought to post here a few times for info..but the way you go on....no

If only they guys who wrote the Gospels spoke in Plain English!

GO_Bear

Soul Winner wrote: »

What makes you so sure that it will be you that will be doing the worrying in heaven about other souls? Big big assumption that.

If its not you then who is it ?

If your god is a perfect unchanging mind, then he would be unable to worry because he is perfect.

Then if your god would not worry, and from what I have heard so far, human souls would not worry. Then the damned are forgotten. What about animal souls , you would just forget about your first pet ? or what about people of other religion. If you have Protestant,Hindu,Muslim,Jew or atheist friends/family. These are just forgotten ?

The idea that you can believe and look forward to this is disgusting.

Festus

Jester Minute wrote: »

Who will take out the trash in the new heaven and the new earth?

I used to vote Green but now I know what a bunch of W*nkers they are I can't use that as an answer.

Protestants perhaps?

(that's an Ireland only answer)

strobe

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It's not just the "new Earth". It's the new "heavens and the new Earth" - which is understood as the union between this creation (the universe) and God's realm/ dimension/ heaven or whatever you want to call it.

Yeah, I meant 'new Heavens and Earth'. But surely the same heaven? And a new Earth? I get the idea of a new Earth, what with Earth being kinda crap, don't really understand the idea of a new heavens though...... What is that about? The heavens, but with a big renovating of it? Why? Was it not good enough before?

Again, does the new Earth last forever? Does the new Heaven? Are they both completely separate? Can you move between the two? Is it that ex-humans live on Earth and God and the angels live in Heaven? How is that different to now?

============================================================================================================

I get that you won't know the answers to these questions. But what's your best guess on them?

Festus

GO_Bear wrote: »

If its not you then who is it ?

If your god is a perfect unchanging mind, then he would be unable to worry because he is perfect.

Then if your god would not worry, and from what I have heard so far, human souls would not worry. Then the damned are forgotten. What about animal souls , you would just forget about your first pet ? or what about people of other religion. If you have Protestant,Hindu,Muslim,Jew or atheist friends/family. These are just forgotten ?

The idea that you can believe and look forward to this is disgusting.

Classic mistake. Impose Human understanding on God.

chucken1

Jester Minute wrote: »

Which bit was obscure - the bit about wifi or the other bit? the wifi reference was a joke concerning a chickens cartoon.

To simplify it, think of a person. Anyone will do. Then think of that person, minus everything that is good about them, and I do mean everything. Then think that what is left is what will go to hell. Not pretty, is it? So it is that if a soul winds up in hell, it will be divested of everything that is true, beautiful and good, and is simply left to its own misery and bitterness.

Fortunately for us, God loves us so very much, and He really wants us to be with Him, because he is our perfect joy and peace. Only in God can we be happy; without Him, we can only be miserable. In hell, we won't have any of the pleasures we can experience in this life. So no consolation there. There is no pleasure in hell. None whatsoever. So those folks who say hell will be good fun are sadly misguided.

Hell is simply the eternal separation from the ultimate of that which is true, good, and beautiful: God.

I hope this helps.

Im afraid it doesnt help at all.

strobe

Festus wrote: »

Classic mistake. Impose Human understanding on God.

Awwww I have like ten one liner come backs for that......

PDN

GO_Bear wrote: »

If its not you then who is it ?

If your god is a perfect unchanging mind, then he would be unable to worry because he is perfect.

Then if your god would not worry, and from what I have heard so far, human souls would not worry. Then the damned are forgotten. What about animal souls , you would just forget about your first pet ? or what about people of other religion. If you have Protestant,Hindu,Muslim,Jew or atheist friends/family. These are just forgotten ?

The idea that you can believe and look forward to this is disgusting.

Moderator's Warning
This thread may have begun elsewhere, but it is now in the Christianity Forum and subject to that Forum's Charter.

I suggest you read that Charter before you post again. Continually labelling orthodox Christian belief as 'disgusting' is no substitute for logical or reasoned debate, and it will earn you an infraction if you continue it.

Stop trolling please.

PDN

Festus wrote: »

I thought that the concept that the current Heavens and Earth would pass away and there will be a new Heaven and Earth is pretty much a universal or catholic concept anyway and accepted by Catholics too? Are there other views?

Indeed, it is the historical teaching of all major churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Protestant, Reformed, Anabaptist etc).

Having said that, there is a load of sentimental folk-religion around which is actually held by huge amounts of people. This bastardised popular belief sees heaven as where good people go for eternity and float around either as disembodied spirits or sit on clouds like in a Philadelphia cheese advert. In it's more bizarre forms you even hear people expressing the profoundly unChristian belief that dead people, particularly dead children, are somehow transformed into angels.

Fanny Cradock

Wright has much more to say on this subject than I do. After reading the link that PDN provided, I suggest you listen to some of his talks here. Any talk on "the Kingdom", "New Creation" or his book "Surprised by Hope" amongst others should cover this topic in more detail.

strobe wrote: »

Yeah, I meant 'new Heavens and Earth'. But surely the same heaven? And a new Earth? I get the idea of a new Earth, what with Earth being kinda crap, don't really understand the idea of a new heavens though...... What is that about? The heavens, but with a big renovating of it? Why? Was it not good enough before?

Again, reading/ listening to the links might help you understand a little more. The suggestion is that creation was always a staged project. This world was never the end of the plan for creation. It was the beginning. In other words, I think that it is accurate to say that while creation as revealed in the opening verses of Genesis was good - meaning it was fit for purpose - it was always part of something bigger. In this regard, Wright talks about "life after life after death". (Think about it!)

As I suggested in my earlier post, the idea behind the New Heavens and the New Earth is that in the union between the two something new is created. If you understand the concept of a New Earth then I think you should be able to understand the concept the of a New Heaven.

strobe wrote: »

Again, does the new Earth last forever? Does the new Heaven?

No idea if it last forever. We simply aren't told. Besides, it might not even make sense to talk about "forever" - which is a concept that only makes sense if you have time to run against it.

strobe wrote: »

Are they both completely separate? Can you move between the two? Is it that ex-humans live on Earth and God and the angels live in Heaven? How is that different to now?

This is what I've been saying - it is a union between the two. I don't see how you could have a union yet remain completely separate.

Also, I'm not sure where you are getting this ex-human thing from. The whole point of the Fall is that it made us less human whereas the cross makes us more human. Being fully human mean being in full relationship with God. This is one reason why the term "Humanist" as understood by Secular Humanists might be considered a non-sequitur by some Christians.

wolfsbane

strobe wrote: »

So heaven is a kind of stop off point where people/souls hang out until the new Earth is set up? Does the new Earth last for eternity? Have you any opinion on why 'heaven' is in place rather than people just going straight to the new Earth?

As the brethren indicated, heaven today is not the final home of the Christian. The new earth is. It is where the heaven of today joins with the earth of then. God's immediate presence with man on a perfect, physical earth. Man in heaven today is spirit only, then they are spirit and (glorified) body united.

Yes, that state lasts forever:
Revelation 22:5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

The present heaven is where Christians go when they die, rather than the new earth, because God has not yet made the latter. Everything in its time - Christ first to be resurrected, then the Christians when He returns, then the new heavens and new earth.
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2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

CCCP

In Orthodox Christianity a marriage persists after death, therefore my view of heaven is different to many here. I will quite happily continue my marriage and union with my wife in the afterlife and we can enjoy the wonderful kingdom of god after it is built on Earth. We will have a house normally together and live normally together only this time its permanent, and without the troubles of life as it is now, as Christ himself will rule and make sure all is well for eternity.

If we pray for our loved ones in heaven, then our prayers will be answered and the lord will guide our spouses to heaven.

If you are married and you are a good follower of the lord then you can expect your spouse to join you in heaven, as by your virtue your spouse is also saved, unless they have somehow gravely deceived you and committed adultery, and if this is the case you will know in heaven upon death as all will be revealed to you.

If you are a husband and you go to heaven your wife if she is a good wife, will be saved by your virtue even if she has lost her way. As a man is head of his wife just as Christ is the head of the church.

Remember , your love and prayer will ensure your family gets to heaven to join you after you die. The lord answers the prayers of the faithful and protects his flock.

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, Jester has put it well.

But your point needs addressed too. What your child really is cannot be established before their life is complete - they may appear to be lovely people now, but quite different when they get the opportunity to be really evil and get away with it. Were all of history's monsters vile little brats, or were some normal little kids? We can't tell for sure what any kid or adult will turn out like. We may find that the kind teenager is the established personality, but we may have a shock too.

So it is not a matter of the child you knew as lovely died and a new person took over. The real person came out. Only your hopes and assumptions died. In eternity the real persons are in heaven and in hell.

That implies that all non-Christians are really evil people in the Earthly sense though, which I'm not sure is what you meant.

I assume you think that really nice people in this life can wind up in hell by being sinners and not accepting salvation. That doesn't mean they go through life raping children and killing college girls.

For example I miss my grandmother. She was a wonderful kind person, who cared for a difficult husband with quiet dignity. She never turned into a serial killer or anything else that would cause me to stop missing her or loving her.

If Christianity is true I'm pretty sure she is in hell, she was by Christian standards a sinner and also not a believer, and I'm not offended at all by the Christian notion that in hell with God's grace removed she is pure evil, or that all the good bits were due to God's grace.

But the notion that she was pure evil here on Earth if she could just get away with it (and thus I wouldn't miss her) doesn't seem to make much sense.

wolfsbane

Wicknight wrote: »

That implies that all non-Christians are really evil people in the Earthly sense though, which I'm not sure is what you meant.

I assume you think that really nice people in this life can wind up in hell by being sinners and not accepting salvation. That doesn't mean they go through life raping children and killing college girls.

For example I miss my grandmother. She was a wonderful kind person, who cared for a difficult husband with quiet dignity. She never turned into a serial killer or anything else that would cause me to stop missing her or loving her.

If Christianity is true I'm pretty sure she is in hell, she was by Christian standards a sinner and also not a believer, and I'm not offended at all by the Christian notion that in hell with God's grace removed she is pure evil, or that all the good bits were due to God's grace.

But the notion that she was pure evil here on Earth if she could just get away with it (and thus I wouldn't miss her) doesn't seem to make much sense.

I did not mean to convey that unbelievers in this life are pure evil in intention and only the threat of retribution restrains them. Most are 'decent' in their conscious mind and behaviour.

You rightly identify 'the Christian notion that in hell with God's grace removed she is pure evil, or that all the good bits were due to God's grace.' But that applies theoretically to the unbeliever in this life also - IF God's grace were removed, they would be pure evil. And here also all the good bits are due to God's grace.

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Luke 23:31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?”

wolfsbane

CCCP wrote: »

In Orthodox Christianity a marriage persists after death, therefore my view of heaven is different to many here. I will quite happily continue my marriage and union with my wife in the afterlife and we can enjoy the wonderful kingdom of god after it is built on Earth. We will have a house normally together and live normally together only this time its permanent, and without the troubles of life as it is now, as Christ himself will rule and make sure all is well for eternity.

If we pray for our loved ones in heaven, then our prayers will be answered and the lord will guide our spouses to heaven.

If you are married and you are a good follower of the lord then you can expect your spouse to join you in heaven, as by your virtue your spouse is also saved, unless they have somehow gravely deceived you and committed adultery, and if this is the case you will know in heaven upon death as all will be revealed to you.

If you are a husband and you go to heaven your wife if she is a good wife, will be saved by your virtue even if she has lost her way. As a man is head of his wife just as Christ is the head of the church.

Remember , your love and prayer will ensure your family gets to heaven to join you after you die. The lord answers the prayers of the faithful and protects his flock.

Interesting, my Soviet friend.

Why do you think marriage persists in heaven? And why do you think your wife can be saved without personal faith in Christ?
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Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

I did not mean to convey that unbelievers in this life are pure evil in intention and only the threat of retribution restrains them. Most are 'decent' in their conscious mind and behaviour.

You rightly identify 'the Christian notion that in hell with God's grace removed she is pure evil, or that all the good bits were due to God's grace.' But that applies theoretically to the unbeliever in this life also - IF God's grace were removed, they would be pure evil. And here also all the good bits are due to God's grace.

But without God's grace isn't everyone pure evil? Even those who end up in heaven?

Or is that what you mean by the real person? That we are all "really" pure evil, and that what we see here and now is the actual illusion, sustained by God's grace?

wolfsbane

Wicknight wrote: »

But without God's grace isn't everyone pure evil? Even those who end up in heaven?

Or is that what you mean by the real person? That we are all "really" pure evil, and that what we see here and now is the actual illusion, sustained by God's grace?

We all start out unbelievers, therefore evil in nature. God's grace gives goodness/decency to all mankind in some degree, but only the believer is really changed from naturally evil to naturally good. The new birth. A new heart. A new rule of life operating, even though exceptions occur.

The change happens on earth, and death makes that unchangeable.
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Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

We all start out unbelievers, therefore evil in nature. God's grace gives goodness/decency to all mankind in some degree, but only the believer is really changed from naturally evil to naturally good. The new birth. A new heart. A new rule of life operating, even though exceptions occur.

The change happens on earth, and death makes that unchangeable.
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Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Do you mean a believer will be good without God's grace? That God's grace is sustaining non-believers but when you are born again you sort of support your own goodness?

(genuine question by the way, I know sometimes questions like these can be a set up for "How dare you say my grandmother was evil!!!" Like I said since I don't believe any of this I don't find it offensive, merely interesting)

Festus

wolfsbane wrote: »

We all start out unbelievers, therefore evil in nature. God's grace gives goodness/decency to all mankind in some degree, but only the believer is really changed from naturally evil to naturally good. The new birth. A new heart. A new rule of life operating, even though exceptions occur.

Don't we all start out as children with only one sin therefore only potentially evil?

The concept of children being naturally evil by default is anathema to me. I think Christ being with the children would suggest that they were not naturally evil until they reached a certain age.

Just a thought.

wolfsbane

Wicknight said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
We all start out unbelievers, therefore evil in nature. God's grace gives goodness/decency to all mankind in some degree, but only the believer is really changed from naturally evil to naturally good. The new birth. A new heart. A new rule of life operating, even though exceptions occur.

The change happens on earth, and death makes that unchangeable.
Do you mean a believer will be good without God's grace?

No. Goodness in both believer and unbeliever comes from God.

That God's grace is sustaining non-believers but when you are born again you sort of support your own goodness?

No, the believer's goodness becomes the characteristic of their nature, but ALL they are is of God. They have no grounds to boast:
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

(genuine question by the way, I know sometimes questions like these can be a set up for "How dare you say my grandmother was evil!!!" Like I said since I don't believe any of this I don't find it offensive, merely interesting)

Thank you for an interesting question.:)
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Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

wolfsbane

Festus wrote: »

Don't we all start out as children with only one sin therefore only potentially evil?

The concept of children being naturally evil by default is anathema to me. I think Christ being with the children would suggest that they were not naturally evil until they reached a certain age.

Just a thought.

I appreciate the thought, but the answer seems to me to be that Christ's compassion for sinners accounts for His dealings with children. And if as you say we all start out with one sin, that means we are sinners, not just potentially so.

But what I'm saying is not that we are sinners because we have committed one sin or many, but that we commit sin because we are born sinners. Our nature is evil, so our lives will be so unless God intervenes.

No one has to teach a child to lie, cheat, oppress, or any of the later adult faults - so why does everyone end up sinning?

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Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

Wicknight said:

No. Goodness in both believer and unbeliever comes from God.


No, the believer's goodness becomes the characteristic of their nature, but ALL they are is of God. They have no grounds to boast:
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Ah, I get you now. God sustains with his grace non-believers in a sort of temporary fashion, but when you are born again God's grace becomes part of your essence.

Out of curiosity are you a subscriber to once saved always saved doctrine?

Genghiz Cohen

Wicknight wrote: »

Out of curiosity are you a subscriber to once saved always saved doctrine?

Remember no true christian would turn back to sin after being saved.

Fanny Cradock

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Remember no true christian would turn back to sin after being saved.

How about you take your snooty remarks elsewhere. I'm getting tired of having to warn you.

wolfsbane

Wicknight said:

Ah, I get you now. God sustains with his grace non-believers in a sort of temporary fashion, but when you are born again God's grace becomes part of your essence.

Yes, that's it. Well put.

Out of curiosity are you a subscriber to once saved always saved doctrine?

Hmm. Yes and No.
Yes, to the proposition that all who are truly converted (saved) never lose that state.

No, to the common abuse of that proposition that those who are saved can spend the rest of their lives in sin and still get to heaven.

Those who are saved are kept by God from continuing in sin. They may fall into sins, but God will bring them to sincere repentance or remove them from the sin by taking them home.
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John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 2:6 This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him.

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

Soul Winner

GO_Bear wrote: »

If its not you then who is it ?

If your god is a perfect unchanging mind, then he would be unable to worry because he is perfect.

Then if your god would not worry, and from what I have heard so far, human souls would not worry. Then the damned are forgotten. What about animal souls , you would just forget about your first pet ? or what about people of other religion. If you have Protestant,Hindu,Muslim,Jew or atheist friends/family. These are just forgotten ?

The idea that you can believe and look forward to this is disgusting.

Then its just as well that I don't isn't it. Conjuring up straw man arguments in order to make what we believe in look like a bad thing is pitiful in the extreme. We want everyone to go to heaven and be at one with the creator but we cannot do anything for people who flatly refuse to believe in Him and submit to His ways for their lives. As for animals. If they are in heaven when I get there then well and good, but the best part about getting to heaven for me will be getting heaven.

As for people of other faiths, they are none of my business, I can only preach what I believe is true. If that doesn't convince them then that's too bad. If it ends up that I was right and they were wrong then may God be merciful to them and vice versa. There's no point in preaching something I don't believe is true is there? If its true then the truthfulness of it was there before I believed in it, so don't blame me, truth is truth and if you don't believe truth then you believe lies.