Would You Be In Favour Of A Complete Re-Structure In Irish Politics

RockinRolla

A delegation of responsibility to all the provences - each with their own Head of Provence and government buildings overlooking their specific region and reporting to the President in Dublin, whom will receive more power.

A complete restructure of politics in this country is required....what about a federal state...thoughts.

Liam Byrne

Makes no sense. We need to get further away from parish pumps, not closer to them.

Your suggestion would also cause massive imbalance and competition; it's bad enough that DAA undermined Shannon as it did without giving the regions an official sanction to "compete".

Also, the logistic are all wrong; "Ulster" would have just 3 counties, Munster would have 3 separate cities, while Leinster would have 2 cities and Connaught kinda one-and-a-half (sorry Sligo residents).

Part of me once wished that Munster was separate from Dublin, since Dublin seems so out of touch with real life; that's still true, but there's a massive amount of political reform required before we'd even consider giving the localised version of the gombeen men more power.

The restructure that we need is to have between 75 & 100 TDs, all answerable and accountable re targets that they set in their manifesto, that can be fired if, say, 2 out of 3 of those targets aren't met, or if they are shown to have done anything "unbecoming the position of TD" (not given a 20 day paid holiday and then welcomed back with nods and winks)

Coillte_Bhoy

We're way too samll to be a federal state. Could do with rationalsing the local govt structures however. It's madness that we have 29 co councils, 5/6 corporations (?) and god knows how many urban councils for such a small country. Crazy.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Might be an idea when Paisley leads us into a united island and the population grows.

the republic's too small to consider it

Pete_Cavan

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

We're way too samll to be a federal state. Could do with rationalsing the local govt structures however. It's madness that we have 29 co councils, 5/6 corporations (?) and god knows how many urban councils for such a small country. Crazy.

That is one of the main problems in this country, we spend huge amounts of money administering relatively small areas. Also each county has its own development plan which takes little or no account of their neighbours. Nowhere is this more obvious than in Dublin where we have four councils who think they are competing against each other and are actually hampering the development of the city.

We do need to restructure our system of local government but I dont think it should be done along provincial lines because of the huge differences in population. What we need is ~8 regional councils which would be cheaper to run and would see investment focused on the most important infrastructure in the region (ie. a road linking the major towns which may be in two or three different countys would be upgraded instead of the current situation where a more heavily trafficed road may be neglected because each county council wants to focus on roads in their county only).

PeterIanStaker

The kind of restructuring I'd support would be reducing the number of TD's and abolishing the Seanad and maybe PR, and also cutting these fool's expenses by 90%. If they want to go down to Ballygobackwards to open a door in a new off licence for deh pahrty fatefull, they can drive themselves, and hopefully contribute to road accident statistics in the process.

namloc1980

We need to get rid of the Seanad or else radically change it's mandate. As it is it is nothing but a talking shop. My preference would be to scrap it completely. Also get rid of the Office of President. It's another waste of time and money. Reduce the Dáil to 85 TD's - one for every 50,000 population - with a change in the voting system to some kind of party-list system. PR-STV results in too much parish pump politics. Give more power to Local Government to manage local issues. A TD should not be involved in getting potholes fixed or any of that stuff....they should be elected to the Dáil for national issues, not sorting out a passport for John Joe down the road.

later12

There is a restructuring process already underway; it goes something like this

IMF
EU
State
Citizen

goose2005

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Part of me once wished that Munster was separate from Dublin, since Dublin seems so out of touch with real life; that's still true, but there's a massive amount of political reform required before we'd even consider giving the localised version of the gombeen men more power.

But Dublin is the powerhouse of the Irish economy - doesn't it generate 50% of state revenue and only get 25% of state spending, or something?

We do need to have proper local government, which raises taxes locally and spends it locally, rather than toothless councillors claiming big salaries for work of no value while shyster TDs try to divert as much state funds as possible to their own area. Maybe about 10 regional governments would do. And there are many things done at local level that don't need to be - e.g. university grants - did you know there are about 70 different offices for assessing these (one for each county + city, and a VEC for each county + city, and some more for good measure) - all of which get nice big salaries, when a central office would be much cheaper.

My name is URL

I'd love to see the President being handed more power over the executive, while maintaining a system of checks and balances similar to that of the US. Would having someone with the authority to engage with the Dail when necessary be such a bad thing really? I know people view the separation of powers as something of the utmost importance, but it'd be better than the current system of allowing things to reach a critical point before acting, imo.

Civilian_Target

This is much like what happens in Belgium - the country is divided into 3 regions. The problem is that there's too much government there for each region.

Personally, I think simply that there needs to be a devolution of power from central government to local government in Ireland.

Local governments should be consolidated from the 35 County Councils to about 12 regions, so that they can each have their own central hospital, police force, regional fire service, etc. as well as current responsibilities. They should be able to raise money on their own, or have some strong level of financial independence from central government.

After that, central government can be dramatically reduced: get rid of the seanad and half the size of the dail - after all, the only big tickets left to run at a national level would be defense & justice, trade & employment, foreign affairs, culture & tourism and transport.

gandalf

Yes the political system needs a total over haul but I believe the OP's system is unworkable.

These are the steps I would take.

• Abolish the Seanad.
• Reduce the number of TD's to around 100.
• The elections for the Dail to be fulfilled against a total list system.
• Maximum term in office of 3 Dails for all TD's.
• TD's only allowed to deal with national issues.
• If a TD stands down or dies his party replaces them with the next person on the list submitted before the last general election avoiding by-elections.
• TD's pay fixed at 50% above the average wage, Ministers at 25% above TD's wages and the Taoiseach at 25% above Ministers.
• Any state employees that become a TD will have to relinquish their position so it becomes available to a full time employee to fill.
• Dail Holidays reduced to 1 month in the summer, a week at Christmas and 10 working days for the rest of the year.
• Pensions only become active at retirement age and only one can be held.
• Reduce the number of councils to around 5 or 6.
• Councillors to become fulltime paid positions at average wage levels.
• Council elections to occur every two years.
• All political positions subject to a vouched expense scheme with full receipts required.

That is all I can think of for the moment I am sure there are more.

Overheal

That implies extreme constitutional overhaul. Not something to be taken lightly.

namloc1980

gandalf wrote: »

[*]TD's pay fixed at 50% above the average wage, Ministers at 25% above TD's wages and the Taoiseach at 25% above Ministers.

The average per the CSO is c.€36k p.a. so a TD would earn €54k, a Minister €67.5k and the Taoiseach €84k. Do you think these sort of wages would attract the type of people our politics badly needs?

gandalf

namloc1980 wrote: »

The average per the CSO is c.€36k p.a. so a TD would earn €54k, a Minister €67.5k and the Taoiseach €84k. Do you think these sort of wages would attract the type of people our politics badly needs?

Have the current generous salaries succeeded in doing so?

What do you think the levels should be then?

namloc1980

gandalf wrote: »

Have the current generous salaries succeeded in doing so?

What do you think the levels should be then?

I was only asking as a general point of discussion. You are of course right about our current lot who are mostly complete eejits on big salaries but I couldn't imagine who we might get as Taoiseach for €84k p.a. Politics needs a complete culture change and pay is but a small part of it.

gandalf

To be fair I plucked those numbers out of my head. I think we are all in agreement that the current level of remuneration is far too high especially with lack of responsibility and accountability for their actions.

Denerick

You can restructure the superficial all you like, nothing will change. The real cancer in our society are the ordinary citizens who rarely if ever give a damn about issues on a national scale. We're all cute whoors at the end of day, so long as Mayo has its hospital Roscommon can go and burn.

gandalf

Denerick wrote: »

You can restructure the superficial all you like, nothing will change. The real cancer in our society are the ordinary citizens who rarely if ever give a damn about issues on a national scale. We're all cute whoors at the end of day, so long as Mayo has its hospital Roscommon can go and burn.

You bring in a total list system and the local personalities are out the windows. Then those who do vote will have to consider the policies of the parties closely because that is what they are going to be doing over their term in power not filling in the pot holes etc.

Of course you still will have a number of people voting because the leader of party X has a nice hair style or they like the colour of party Y's branding and other such trivialities but at least when the TD's are in place they cannot be distracted by twits asking for local based favours and be expected to turn up at every funeral in the parish like they do at the moment.

brandon_flowers

gandalf wrote: »

Have the current generous salaries succeeded in doing so?

What do you think the levels should be then?

Stephen Green left as chairman of HSBC to become UK Trade Minister in September. He left a salary of £1.25m to take a salary of £0. It's these people we need not some of the highly unqualified people we have at the moment.

Independent01

Well if their current pay gives us the IMF paying half or one third of these amounts might provide us with people really concerned with public service and the national interest. We really need to cop on to ourselves here, put a beggar on horseback and he will (and has) ride to hell.

oncevotedff

RockinRolla wrote: »

A complete restructure of politics in this country is required....what about a federal state...thoughts.

We need less government in this country, not more. It makes no sense to introduce a new layer of administration to a country that could effectively be governed by a committee.

goose2005 wrote: »

But Dublin is the powerhouse of the Irish economy - doesn't it generate 50% of state revenue and only get 25% of state spending, or something?.

My first reaction was What Economy? But I see what you mean. Does Dublin really generate half of state revenue?

gandalf wrote: »

Maximum term in office of 3 Dails for all TD's.

I'd leave it at 2 terms.

• If a TD stands down or dies his party replaces them with the next person on the list submitted before the last general election avoiding by-elections..

Absolutely not. If that system was in place now the worst government in Irish history would comfortably stay in power for another 2 years

• Pensions only become active at retirement age and only one can be held...

A pension after a mere 15 years "work"?

Overheal wrote: »

That implies extreme constitutional overhaul. Not something to be taken lightly.

Any change to the political system would require some amendment to the constitution.

namloc1980 wrote: »

The average per the CSO is c.€36k p.a. so a TD would earn €54k, a Minister €67.5k and the Taoiseach €84k. Do you think these sort of wages would attract the type of people our politics badly needs?

Do we want politics to be a career choice? Or worse, the family business?

Denerick wrote: »

You can restructure the superficial all you like, nothing will change. The real cancer in our society are the ordinary citizens who rarely if ever give a damn about issues on a national scale. We're all cute whoors at the end of day, so long as Mayo has its hospital Roscommon can go and burn.

That's a natural extension of Irish insularity and parochialism. Changing mindsets will be far more difficult than changing the political system.

Pete_Cavan

• TD's pay fixed at 50% above the average wage, Ministers at 25% above TD's wages and the Taoiseach at 25% above Ministers.

I dont think this is a good way to benchmark TD's/Minister's pay. Having it based on the average wage would mean TDs/Ministers would naturally look to increase the average wage, and therefore increasing their own wage. We need to reduce our labour costs in this country and become a low cost economy if we are to prosper. Their wages should be benchmarked against a national disposable income index which would see politicians rewarded for improving the economy and punished for damaging it.

gandalf

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

[/LIST]
I dont think this is a good way to benchmark TD's/Minister's pay. Having it based on the average wage would mean TDs/Ministers would naturally look to increase the average wage, and therefore increasing their own wage. We need to reduce our labour costs in this country and become a low cost economy if we are to prosper. Their wages should be benchmarked against a national disposable income index which would see politicians rewarded for improving the economy and punished for damaging it.

That works for me. TBH I threw the initial point up as a starting point to the discussion on this so others like you could tease out a better way. I am liking that, incentivise them to improve things.

SkepticOne

I would agree with a lot of what has been suggested on this thread. I think the core reforms should be:

1. Removal of multi-seat constituencies. Replace with first past the post single seat constituencies.

2. Proportionality to be provided by a list system. You would get two votes: one for your local TD and one for the party list.

3. A bolstering of genuine local democracy. Some sort of directly elected mayoral system should be instituted.

4. A lowering of salaries for TDs and TD pensions and substantial reform of the expenses system.

The last one normally attracts controversy. A lot of people argue that in order to get the very best people you need to pay a decent salary. I think this only works up to a point. The position of TD should be about public service not money. If you pay too much (as I think we're doing in Ireland) you just get people who are interested in it as a job, i.e., do whatever is needed to hold on to the job (sorting medical cards, passports, planning permissions for constituents) without really caring about legislation or policy.

5. Shut down the Seanad.

mgmt

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

The kind of restructuring I'd support would be reducing the number of TD's and abolishing the Seanad and maybe PR, and also cutting these fool's expenses by 90%. If they want to go down to Ballygobackwards to open a door in a new off licence for deh pahrty fatefull, they can drive themselves, and hopefully contribute to road accident statistics in the process.

+1

Reducing TD numbers will increase the competition for the seats, increasing the caliber of TDs we get and limit the extreme politics we currently have. How many of the green TDs were elected to the final seat? We need a maximum of 100TDs.

molard

how about a fine for anyone that can not be bothered to vote in local and general elections.

Jeboa Safari

I'd be in favour of a system where the party nominates its people for each cabinet position, and then we vote for each party at election, instead of individuals. Hopefully the parties would select qualified people for each position then. Give the county councils a fixed budget to deal with local issues, instead of having the likes of Jackie Healy Rae decide that somewhere needs a hospital. That should be up to the Department of Health, not some gombeen independent shouting me me me the whole time.

mdebets

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

[/LIST]
We need to reduce our labour costs in this country and become a low cost economy if we are to prosper.

That's not going to work. There are too many countries out there who are much more cheaper than Ireland, no matter how low the Irish costs will be cut.
The only way for Ireland to prosper is to work towards an environment, where employers are willing to pay a premium on cost (e.g. well educated workforce, Universities that drive innovations, leadership in technology, etc.)

brandon_flowers

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Stephen Green left as chairman of HSBC to become UK Trade Minister in September. He left a salary of £1.25m to take a salary of £0. It's these people we need not some of the highly unqualified people we have at the moment.

Considering the extra benefits (pension, expenses paid, rates waived) as part of the position as leader of this country, the overall amount would be considered considerably higher than the baseline salary.

TBH though we need people that are idealistic enough to want to lead the country, not those seeking to fill their wallets. Any way.. the people that have the skills and experience needed to run this country would do it as much for the challenge as anything else.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

Why is everyone hellbent on abolishing the seanad?

They provide expert recommendations to the dail who for the most part haven't got a clue as half of them are school teachers etc. and are a safeguard against poor legislation being rushed into statute.