Positives from IMF takeover?

brandon_flowers

Please do not post negative stuff there is a world of threads out there already.

OK the benefits I see of the IMF taking over are as follows

1. Getting our economy back on track will take 50-75% less time than if they weren't in charge.
2. Our banks will begin lending to SMB's sooner which will remove savage pressure currently on them.
3. A reformed public service, slimmed down with the necessary amount of staff & management (I foresee 100,000 civil servants being made redundant). This is a long term reform but the cuts will be immediate.
4. Mr Chopra and his gang will make decisions and fast - none of this bumbling around with discussions & cabinet meetings and sub-comittees and ****e. If they have to make a decision it will be one day in one meeting and decision implemented.
5. Our recovery is dependent on the IMF (professional) not a fool from Offaly and an equally incompetent leader from Mayo.
6. These will be hard to stomach for some people but paying higher taxes will be crippling for a while but in a long term situation it will benefit the country. The more tax we pay the more money that is available to services - unfortunately most of this money pays for salaries at present and not services. With a higher tax income and lean and efficint services the country will improve no end. Look at Sweden and Norway. It may take 10-15 years but remember making the country like it is at present also took 15 years.
7. It will remove a lot of deadwood from this country. Free-wheeling doesn't only happen in the public service. I met a business man in his seventies a few weeks ago and he said the IMF will be in before Christmas and he said every time there is a deep recession it really sorts the men from the boys.

I have full confidence in the IMF - I will pay whatever taxes are expected of me. I will sympathise with anyone who is made redundant but we need to take positives from what is happening. The IMF won't spare anybody either so there is no point saying I'll be hit hardest. What am I going to do? etc etc. Everyone is in for a severe bashing.

The IMF will reform this country - there is no doubting it. We were completely incapable of doing it ourselves FF/FG/Lab whoever is in power wouldn't have stood a chance.

Anyone else add positives to the list?

kippy

I dont expect that the IMF will have the level of granular control you are foreseeing, but then again I didnt expect to see them come in either.

Swampy

I think I'll go back asleep.

brandon_flowers

kippy wrote: »

I dont expect that the IMF will have the level of granular control you are foreseeing, but then again I didnt expect to see them come in either.

I think they will - purely because of the amount of money they will be giving Ireland and how fast they want it paid back. They will be giving us €90-€100 billion at least.

scientific1982

It'll expose corruption and negligence in our government and public sector.

brandon_flowers

brandon_flowers wrote: »

I think they will - purely because of the amount of money they will be giving Ireland and how fast they want it paid back. They will be giving lending us €90-€100 billion at least.

I just can't see how they can lend that much and expect to get it back plus interest!

The economy simply isn't big enough to support the interest on such a loan let alone the capital.

If they can let the banks fall, then they will be doing us a great service.

brandon_flowers

Deleted User wrote: »

I just can't see how they can lend that much and expect to get it back plus interest!

The economy simply isn't big enough to support the interest on such a loan let alone the capital.

If they can let the banks fall, then they will be doing us a great service.

Like Iceland we will be paying it back for 70-80 years. People should realise that we are now Iceland. We have a small economy but thats the hole we have dug and we do need that amount of money to get us out of it. They will look for immediate reform so the world can see how we will pay it back over 70 years. If they gave us 80 billion and now reform we would have it spent in 5 years without a cent paid back. That is how ****ed this country is.

Edit: I should say lend but with the attitude of "hand the keys back and let the bank sort it out" there is a possibility that we may never pay it back.

Son Of A Vidic

scientific1982 wrote: »

It'll expose corruption and negligence in our government and public sector.

We can only hope for that indeed. As a former HSE employee, I hope they fcuk out the many wasters the idle with their undeserved privileges within that monolith.

I expect the entire global financial system to collapse and be replaced before this loan gets repaid. The world is changing from a growth model to one of declining resources!

Snakeblood

It might crush cronyism as a political force, and send Fianna Fail out to the ****hole they've been digging for the last few decades. Maybe it will end the idea of Rent Allowance as a subsidy for landlords and bring rent in line with the rest of the universe.

I live in hope at least.

Joe C

"I for one welcome our new insect overlords"

Snakeblood

Joe C wrote: »

"I for one welcome our new insect overlords"

I hope they introduce a stale meme tax

Jay D

With a bit of luck people will finally in large, see through the complete bs FF are giving on an absolutely constant basis and we will see change.

drdeadlift

nothing like a bit of ah to depress the shiet out of ya.

bigneacy

We as a nation got ourselves into this mess. Yes, fair enough - some of us took the piss more than others, some are still taking the piss but they'll get their comeuppance soon.

The harsh reality is, however, it is now painstakingly clear to the rest of the world and becoming clear to ourselves that we as a nation are unable to get ourselves out of this mess.

Hopefully:

The positives to come from this is Fianna Fail will go by the wayside (please, if there's any self respect or dignity left in this country, they will). I'd imagine the next General Election will be cataclysmic for the old guard. We will have a fresh new cabinet with fresh ideas. (i.e. not that mayo ****)

The old cronyism, backhanders and scandal will be washed away with the rest of the ****e.

brandon_flowers

bigneacy wrote: »

We as a nation got ourselves into this mess. Yes, fair enough - some of us took the piss more than others, some are still taking the piss but they'll get their comeuppance soon.

The harsh reality is, however, it is now painstakingly clear to the rest of the world and becoming clear to ourselves that we as a nation are unable to get ourselves out of this mess.

Hopefully:

The positives to come from this is Fianna Fail will go by the wayside (please, if there's any self respect or dignity left in this country, they will). I'd imagine the next General Election will be cataclysmic for the old guard. We will have a fresh new cabinet with fresh ideas. (i.e. not that mayo ****)

The old cronyism, backhanders and scandal will be washed away with the rest of the ****e.

That is exactly what I would like to see. This country is rotting from the core outwards and its about time to clean out all the ****e that exists in every system in Ireland. HSE suddenly wake up and realise that they have 28,000 staff too many, they only have 140,000 staff thats 20% too many. What a comical ****ing effort? Can you imagine General Electric suddenly realising one day that they have 70,000 employees too many? Hilarious management at the highest level.

ch750536

Balance will be made between public and private. At the moment the public sector is larger than the private, this means that people find it hard to compete, as you are competing against state services. In the UK at the moment it is far far bigger than the private sector, their collapse will come too.

So, I expect to see pruning from the public sector and in many cases this being replaced with the private, as long as services are not impacted so be it.

brandon_flowers

ch750536 wrote: »

Balance will be made between public and private. At the moment the public sector is larger than the private, this means that people find it hard to compete, as you are competing against state services. In the UK at the moment it is far far bigger than the private sector, their collapse will come too.

So, I expect to see pruning from the public sector and in many cases this being replaced with the private, as long as services are not impacted so be it.

The only difference is public servants in the UK are paid far lower than their private sector colleagues. Working in the public sector in the UK is nothing like here.

ilovelamp2000

What is it like to work in the public service here Brandon ?

brandon_flowers

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

What is it like to work in the public service here Brandon ?

No idea, I work for a living.

ilovelamp2000

brandon_flowers wrote: »

No idea, I work for a living.

Well at least your opinion is well researched and not based on lazy generalisations.

brandon_flowers

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

Well at least your opinion is well researched and not based on lazy generalisations.

At what is your opinion on our public service so? That it is not over-bloated to the point where it has destroyed the public finances? There is far more workers than work to be done. It is exponentially more in fact.

Kev_ps3

The IMF are adding to our national debt you clowns. Plus FF are finished soon. The IMF coming here is a national disaster and humiliation.

brandon_flowers

brandon_flowers wrote: »

At what is your opinion on our public service so? That it is not over-bloated to the point where it has destroyed the public finances? There is far more workers than work to be done. It is exponentially more in fact.

You can't blame the staff for that, just the management (government).
I dread to think what slashing the PS will do to the length of the queue at the dole office not to mention the unemployment figures.

Johnny Utah

Pat Kenny, Tubirdy, Marian Finucane, Miriam OCallaghan, and (socialist hero) Joe Duffy will all be forced to take massive pay cuts. So every cloud......:D

Kev_ps3

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Pat Kenny, Tubirdy, Marian Finucane, Miriam OCallaghan, and (socialist hero) Joe Duffy will all be forced to take massive pay cuts. So every cloud......:D

Forced? The IMO dont force anything, they give guidelines. Fat chance any party does anything but cut the dole and essential services.

brandon_flowers

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't blame the staff for that, just the management (government).
I dread to think what slashing the PS will do to the length of the queue at the dole office not to mention the unemployment figures.

I am not blaming the staff, look at the HSE they have only opened the redundancy scheme to management - obviously have too many "management" staff. The government never had a redundancy scheme for any civil servant. You stayed in the job until you retired regardless of whether you were needed or not. Now we find it is crazily over staffed and there is no method of removing people or trimming the numbers down.

Slashing the PS will obv add to the dole queue but the dole payment will be the biggest victim. It will be halved at least by the IMF. Maybe not immediately but they will butcher it.

We should note that the IMF in their first week in Latvia cut PS pay by 25% in one go. No questions asked. These are the decisions this country is facing. I don't think people realise the power and the not caring attitude the IMF will have. It will be their money being spent and they will watch every cent.

It was like this country was eating fast food for 10 years and must now loose 10 stone in 6 months.

HalloweenJack

- FF won't be making our financial decisions anymore.
- The IMF won't be making decisions based on who they know in the upper echelons of Irish society.
- They'll actually have the balls to make tough decisions as their only interest in Ireland is about getting their money back, they don't care about getting re-elected.
- They're going to be hated anyway so it doesn't matter to them how much the public protests their decisions.

mossyc123

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Our recovery is dependent on the IMF (professional) not a fool from Offaly and an equally incompetent leader from Mayo.

Your a Dub, yeah?!
Do you honestly think that where Enda Kenny is from has anything to do with how good a job he'd do?!
Surely couldn't do any worse then that chancer from Drumcondra hiding in the cupboard anyway!

brandon_flowers

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Forced? The IMO dont force anything, they give guidelines. Fat chance any party does anything but cut the dole and essential services.

Oh yes they do. If the government don't follow the IMF the "bail-out" disappears and so does our country.

brandon_flowers

mossyc123 wrote: »

Your a Dub, yeah?!
Do you honestly think that where Enda Kenny is from has anything to do with how good a job he'd do?!
Surely couldn't do any worse then that chancer from Drumcondra hiding in the cupboard anyway!

Ya def a Dub!!! With Kerry football in my signature. We have no capable politicains in this country - that is one reason why we are where we are.

And I might add Kerry has some of the worst politicians. Ferris ran guns, Deenihan played football and the Healy-Raes run their business out of Kerry Co. Council money. I won't mention Sean Kelly.

ilovelamp2000

brandon_flowers wrote: »

At what is your opinion on our public service so? That it is not over-bloated to the point where it has destroyed the public finances? There is far more workers than work to be done. It is exponentially more in fact.

I'd imagine some of it is bloated, like the HSE. But I'd imagine some of it is run pretty well. And I think everybody knows what has destroyed the public finances at this stage. The banks. The public service and social welfare bills do need looking at, but most commentators have acknowledge they were manageable without outside help. The bank guarantee is the major issue.

It would be no harm for you to do a bit of research on the IMF too. You could start here: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056082697

It's also worth having a look at the mess the IMF has made of countries it was "helping". They aren't here for our benefit. They are here because there is a carcass that can be picked. It'll be interesting to see whether there's a push to sell off public utilities to multinational companies like there has been in the developing world.

brandon_flowers

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

I'd imagine some of it is bloated, like the HSE. But I'd imagine some of it is run pretty well. And I think everybody knows what has destroyed the public finances at this stage. The banks. The public service and social welfare bills do need looking at, but most commentators have acknowledge they were manageable without outside help. The bank guarantee is the major issue.

It would be no harm for you to do a bit of research on the IMF too. You could start here: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056082697

It's also worth having a look at the mess the IMF has made of countries it was "helping". They aren't here for our benefit. They are here because there is a carcass that can be picked. It'll be interesting to see whether there's a push to sell off public utilities to multinational companies like there has been in the developing world.

I know the IMF don't actually make the final decision but you can bet it will be 95-100% of the decision they wanted. We need to please them to get money from them. So we must do what they want us to do. Of course they destroy countries, they want their money back. I have no doubt they will destroy this country for 3-4 years but it is what emerges the far side is important. There are still hundreds of thousands of children in this country who know sweet FA about what is going on but their needs to be a country for them to live in which is better than the current state.


Yes I know some of the public service is very well run, I am taking it as a whole entity. There are serious areas of gravy training in the PS it cant be denied. In other areas there is nothing of the sort but because if the way the whole PS system is setup it needs a total reform. In relation to what you said it could easily have been sorted internally but how long would it take? Seriously - I would have no faith in any Irish government reforming the PS in the next 10 years. We have no funds for a redundancy scheme. None whatsoever. Some of the IMF money will need to be used for this.

On your last point, I think they will sell off the ESB and Bord Gais, possibly CIE and the water industry.

ilovelamp2000

brandon_flowers wrote: »

I know the IMF don't actually make the final decision but you can bet it will be 95-100% of the decision they wanted. We need to please them to get money from them. So we must do what they want us to do. Of course they destroy countries, they want their money back. I have no doubt they will destroy this country for 3-4 years but it is what emerges the far side is important. There are still hundreds of thousands of children in this country who know sweet FA about what is going on but their needs to be a country for them to live in which is better than the current state.


Yes I know some of the public service is very well run, I am taking it as a whole entity. There are serious areas of gravy training in the PS it cant be denied. In other areas there is nothing of the sort but because if the way the whole PS system is setup it needs a total reform.

On your last point, I think they will sell off the ESB and Bord Gais, possibly CIE and the water industry.

And privitisation of those areas simply doesn't work. We will end up paying more for those services.

kippy

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Oh yes they do. If the government don't follow the IMF the "bail-out" disappears and so does our country.

Ah stop will ya.
OUR COUNTRY WILL DISAPPEAR.
Will it, really......like sink into the ocean disappear.............

FFS

brandon_flowers

Yes we will but like every other state in the developed world all utilities are privately held.

brandon_flowers

kippy wrote: »

Ah stop will ya.
OUR COUNTRY WILL DISAPPEAR.
Will it, really......like sink into the ocean disappear.............

FFS

A country is defined by its borders, its constitution, its people and its culture. We are talking about control of a state here not a piece of land. So we let the UK or Germany loan us the money. What country do we belong to then?

kippy

brandon_flowers wrote: »

A country is defined by its borders, its constitution, its people and its culture. We are talking about control of a state here not a piece of land. So we let the UK or Germany loan us the money. What country do we belong to then?

Who do you think has been loaning this country and it's banks (and by extension it's people) money for years?
Do you think this is the first time we've had to get a loan of money?

A country does not dissappear. The overly negative tones and views of many here are nothing but overkill.

Yep, we're financially screwed, we're gonna have to make big changes (hopefully this is a wake up call) but in out public sector, taxation and indeed the way we elect our government and indeed the way that government is held accountable.
But the country wont "disappear".
Did England dissappear when the IMF came in, has Hungry???

Seriously, get outside, go for a walk, relax for a while, put things into perspective.

philologos

brandon_flowers wrote: »

1. A reformed public service, slimmed down with the necessary amount of staff & management (I foresee 100,000 civil servants being made redundant). This is a long term reform but the cuts will be immediate.

That isn't a positive! :pac:

Think about those 100,000 no?

brandon_flowers

kippy wrote: »

Who do you think has been loaning this country and it's banks (and by extension it's people) money for years?
Do you think this is the first time we've had to get a loan of money?

A country does not dissappear. The overly negative tones and views of many here are nothing but overkill.

Yep, we're financially screwed, we're gonna have to make big changes (hopefully this is a wake up call) but in out public sector, taxation and indeed the way we elect our government and indeed the way that government is held accountable.
But the country wont "disappear".
Did England dissappear when the IMF came in, has Hungry???

Seriously, get outside, go for a walk, relax for a while, put things into perspective.

Did England dissappear when the IMF came in, has Hungry???

No, I am saying where would we be if the IMF didnt come to help. We would have to ask another country.

ilovelamp2000

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Yes we will but like every other state in the developed world all utilities are privately held.

No they aren't.

And how is us paying more for these things a good thing ?

kippy

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Did England dissappear when the IMF came in, has Hungry???

No, I am saying where would we be if the IMF didnt come to help. We would have to ask another country.

Do you know how the IMF are funded?

Look, we've been getting lent money for years and years possibly since the foundation of the state (I dont actually know this for sure)


If the IMF didnt come to help the euro would be fcuked as would multiple german, french and asian investors who lent to Ireland and Irish banks over the years.

brandon_flowers

Jakkass wrote: »

That isn't a positive! :pac:

Think about those 100,000 no?

Yes my parents and my brother are possiblities for the chop along with several cousins, friends, in laws etc.

It is in the overall context of our public service, we cant keep spending nearly 80% of our education budget and 75% of our health budget on salaries. These are the two most important services in the country yet the money being pumped into them doesnt goremotely near the right areas.

SantryRed

Jakkass wrote: »

That isn't a positive! :pac:

Think about those 100,000 no?

You can't get involved with all the sob stories.

The IMF will come in and look at solely what is best for this country and to repay our debts to them. It will be fcuking brilliant if they come in. They won't be afraid to make cuts. They will want to turn the country around while our government just want to get back in power.

brandon_flowers

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

No they aren't.

And how is us paying more for these things a good thing ?

I never said paying more was a good thing, I just responded to a question about selling off utilities.

ilovelamp2000

brandon_flowers wrote: »

I never said paying more was a good thing, I just responded to a question about selling off utilities.

But this is a likely result of the IMF coming in, which you argue will be positive.

brandon_flowers

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

But this is a likely result of the IMF coming in, which you argue will be positive.

I am trying to take the positives out of the IMF coming in. Not that the whole thing is positive - how is the whole thing positive? The country is ****ed right now. The IMF are going to do some seriously horrible things in the short term. Its the end results I was hoping for a debate on.

kippy

brandon_flowers wrote: »

I am trying to take the positives out of the IMF coming in. Not that the whole thing is positive - how is the whole thing positive? The country is ****ed right now. The IMF are going to do some seriously horrible things in the short term. Its the end results I was hoping for a debate on.

"The End Results"
Like the country disappearing???

brianthebard

There are no positives to an IMF takeover. People posting in this thread licking their lips at the possible ripping apart of people's livelihoods are deluded. You all think that its going to fix everything you have a problem with (public sector in particular) but it won't affect you. The IMF does not do positive things for a country. It does not 'reform' anything. It doesn't pass legislation. It just rips away anything it can and leaves you with a shell of a functioning society. Do you think because people will be let go from the HSE its going to become anymore efficient? Its just going to get worse and worse, and it won't be able to improve even if a competent minister was in charge because the government's hands are tied by the IMF.

philologos

SantryRed wrote: »

You can't get involved with all the sob stories.

The IMF will come in and look at solely what is best for this country and to repay our debts to them. It will be fcuking brilliant if they come in. They won't be afraid to make cuts. They will want to turn the country around while our government just want to get back in power.

It's absolutely ridiculous to say that 100,000 people losing their jobs is a good thing, especially when a lot of these people have families to support.

It's very easy when none of these things affect you to sit back on your high perch and say that they are excellent.

locomo

brianthebard wrote: »

The IMF does not do positive things for a country.

Would you rather they did not come in so? We cannot borrow money from anyone else, and if the IMF will not lend us money @ 5% then you will find next year the government cheques will bounce. We are spending 50 billion + taking in 30 billion. Whats really absurd is that they are called in to a country with the highest public sector pay in Europe, and social welfare in Louth over double that in Newry. Our government clearly got carried away with increases over the years, and did not cut enough over the past few years.