SPL Ref's to Strike

celticbest

Pauleta wrote: »

some of the things we have seen over the last couple of years have been unbelievable but im not going to abuse the ref if i see him going about his daily life. They get enough stick in the ground

tribesman78 wrote: »

I makes me laugh that they are giving out about Scottish refs. God love ye if Irish refs do go over and ye get Buttimer to ref any game, never mind a big one. Ye will be crying for your own refs back, faults and all, after seeing him in action.:D

If a Ref comes out and says one thing to the SFA & a Football Club which in turn makes a lineman resign and then the whole lot is found out to be lies & he is not sacked I think this raises many questions about the integrity of referees in Scotland.

After all there integrity is what raised this whole arguement in the first place.

Pauleta

PauloMN wrote: »

are you for real? Why not go the whole hog and put the mascot outfit on them? "Oh look, it's not Dougie, it's Hoopy the Huddlehound!"

I dont usually respond to stupid posts but im in good form.

After a few years new refs will come along and nobody will know who they are, where they are from and in the case of old firm fans what church they attended one time. Its called thinking long term

celticbest

Pauleta wrote: »

I dont usually respond to stupid posts but im in good form.

After a few years new refs will come along and nobody will know who they are, where they are from and in the case of old firm fans what church they attended one time. Its called thinking long term

LOL, That's just so funny.



What happens if a player gets to close to a Ref when there is a close up shot??

During a game is there face going to be permanently pixilated.

Will we have to start watching delayed coverage of games so they can cut out any shot during the game that might make the ref recognisable,

Will they stop people bringing cameras / mobiles into the grounds to insure no pictures are taking and uploaded to the Web of a referee or his linemen?

It's just not workable.

Pauleta

celticbest wrote: »

It's just not workable.

For people possessing low IQs maybe :rolleyes:



You are not going to get a proper response for stupidity

Dempsey

Pauleta wrote: »

A way to resolve the issue could be that the SFA and the TV stations have to stop announcing the refs names on tv and at the match and stop spending the whole game focusing on the ref and having a zoomed in shot of his face. Refs anonymity should be kept and that should apply in all leagues.

The lack in transparency from the SFA over referee decisions, how referees performances are measured and how they are disciplined is a major factor why clubs, media & fans are criticising the refereeing system.

This idea that you turn it into a kinda black box and everyone just accept 'lucky dip' standards & decisions isnt going to wash with anyone, ever.

I dont think Sky or ESPN focus on the referee anymore than they do for EPL or La Liga matches. When they do focus on the referee, its because of a bad decision and the fact that they make so many of them when Rangers and Celtic are involved is a very clear indicator that they arent good enough for the level of football being played in the league.

celticbest

Pauleta wrote: »

For people possessing low IQs maybe :rolleyes:



You are not going to get a proper response for stupidity

:eek: Stupidity.

I've just pointed out why your idea would never work and you say,

"For people possessing low IQs maybe :rolleyes:"

:rolleyes: I think that says it all about IQ's.......

Eirebear

Dempsey wrote: »

I dont think Sky or ESPN focus on the referee anymore than they do for EPL or La Liga matches. When they do focus on the referee, its because of a bad decision and the fact that they make so many of them when Rangers and Celtic are involved is a very clear indicator that they arent good enough for the level of football being played in the league.

I agree with you to a point, but it's not just Rangers and/or Celtic.

They make as many mistakes wether they are officiating on Rangers and Celtic as they do East Fife and Brechin.

I'm very much getting from the conversation in this thread that very few of the Celtic fans involved watch any Scottish football outwith Celtic games, and i think this may be a big part of the issue.
They are left with the sense of injustice they get after a mistake goes against them, the same as any fan does but unfortunately they are not exposed to any mistakes going against anyone else which leads to them feeling the world is against them.

This is compounded by the large amount of Celtic fans coming from Ireland.

I'm not saying that there isnt any problem with the referee's but it might go someway to explaining Celtic supporters "paranoia" issues.

Pauleta

Dempsey wrote: »

The lack in transparency from the SFA over referee decisions, how referees performances are measured and how they are disciplined is a major factor why clubs, media & fans are criticising the refereeing system.

This idea that you turn it into a kinda black box and everyone just accept 'lucky dip' standards & decisions isnt going to wash with anyone, ever.

I dont think Sky or ESPN focus on the referee anymore than they do for EPL or La Liga matches. When they do focus on the referee, its because of a bad decision and the fact that they make so many of them when Rangers and Celtic are involved is a very clear indicator that they arent good enough for the level of football being played in the league.

I fully agree but If the refs are not good enough in Scotland the reality is that Scotland are stuck with them. If they are constantly making mistakes then the SFA have to deal with that themselves in-house. I think anonymity would attract more referees to the game because in fairness who the hell would want to be a ref in Scotland when there are so many nut job supporters. If you make a mistake in an old firm game, you are public enemy number 1 and it doesnt end when he walks down the tunnel and the stuff off the pitch is what concerns me the most. I feel this plays a part subconsciously in referees when they make or fail to make a decision.

celticbest

Eirebear wrote: »

I agree with you to a point, but it's not just Rangers and/or Celtic.

They make as many mistakes wether they are officiating on Rangers and Celtic as they do East Fife and Brechin.

I'm very much getting from the conversation in this thread that very few of the Celtic fans involved watch any Scottish football outwith Celtic games, and i think this may be a big part of the issue.
They are left with the sense of injustice they get after a mistake goes against them, the same as any fan does but unfortunately they are not exposed to any mistakes going against anyone else which leads to them feeling the world is against them.

This is compounded by the large amount of Celtic fans coming from Ireland.

I'm not saying that there isnt any problem with the referee's but it might go someway to explaining Celtic supporters "paranoia" issues.

Eirebear, as you know I have stated that it is across the board in the SPL, I cannot speak for the SFL as I rarely see any games from it.

Yes Celtic Football Club are pressing for answers this year and rightly so, it's not because of Paranoia either.

Dougie McDonald lied plain and simple, answers are needed as a result of this alone, number one being why is he still refereeing?

Eirebear

celticbest wrote: »

Eirebear, as you know I have stated that it is across the board in the SPL, I cannot speak for the SFL as I rarely see any games from it.

Yes Celtic Football Club are pressing for answers this year and rightly so, it's not because of Paranoia either.

Dougie McDonald lied plain and simple, answers are needed as a result of this alone, number one being why is he still refereeing?

I wasnt singling anyone out there dude, just a general perception.

Dempsey

Pauleta wrote: »

I fully agree but If the refs are not good enough in Scotland the reality is that Scotland are stuck with them. If they are constantly making mistakes then the SFA have to deal with that themselves in-house. I think anonymity would attract more referees to the game because in fairness who the hell would want to be a ref in Scotland when there are so many nut job supporters. If you make a mistake in an old firm game, you are public enemy number 1 and it doesnt end when he walks down the tunnel and the stuff off the pitch is what concerns me the most. I feel this plays a part subconsciously in referees when they make or fail to make a decision.

But they havent because they themselves are incompetent. They protect the head of referee's who has helped a referee cover up a match report which used a linesman as a scapegoat (he quit), he's sent sectarian emails on his work computer, no punishment, oversaw the standards of referee's decline under his leadership, no punishment or remedy implemented.

People have been well informed for the last few years about mistakes, incompetence, admissions of wrong decisions by officials yet the SFA has done nothing, absolutely nothing to maintain or improve standards of refereeing in Scotland. No proactive thinking whatsoever. The negative mood from fans, media & clubs stems from this.

I'm still waiting for the SFA, SPL & SFL to amalgamate like what was recommended by fans, media, McLeish report basically everyone except the organisations themselves. Calls for an overhaul to a system have been going on for years now and the bodies that run the Scottish Game has been described, by the McLeish Report, "50 years out of date" & "institutionalised and in need of reform". All fans feel the same regardless of their club and they are venting all their frustrations through the grossly mismanaged situation with referee's.

The whole referee fiasco just a small part of the problems in Scotland. Getting referees back to work will solve nothing without overhauling systems. The think tank back in 95 told them the same things the McLeish report is telling them again now but will they listen? Turkeys dont vote for christmas and there are plenty of turkeys running the game in Scotland. John Delaney is the 2nd coming of christ by comparison to the muppets running the game in Scotland.

CSF

celticbest wrote: »

:eek: Stupidity.

I've just pointed out why your idea would never work and you say,

"For people possessing low IQs maybe :rolleyes:"

:rolleyes: I think that says it all about IQ's.......

Nah, to be fair, its you making a show of yourself.

General Zod

maybe referees can come on wearing Zorro masks and go by nicknames like "El Diablo" or "The Masked Whistler".

celticbest

Pauleta wrote: »

A way to resolve the issue could be that the SFA and the TV stations have to stop announcing the refs names on tv and at the match and stop spending the whole game focusing on the ref and having a zoomed in shot of his face. Refs anonymity should be kept and that should apply in all leagues.

PauloMN wrote: »

are you for real? Why not go the whole hog and put the mascot outfit on them? "Oh look, it's not Dougie, it's Hoopy the Huddlehound!"

Pauleta wrote: »

I dont usually respond to stupid posts but im in good form.

After a few years new refs will come along and nobody will know who they are, where they are from and in the case of old firm fans what church they attended one time. Its called thinking long term

celticbest wrote: »

LOL, That's just so funny.



What happens if a player gets to close to a Ref when there is a close up shot??

During a game is there face going to be permanently pixilated.

Will we have to start watching delayed coverage of games so they can cut out any shot during the game that might make the ref recognisable

Will they stop people bringing cameras / mobiles into the grounds to insure no pictures are taking and uploaded to the Web of a referee or his linemen?

It's just not workable.

Pauleta wrote: »

For people possessing low IQs maybe :rolleyes:



You are not going to get a proper response for stupidity

celticbest wrote: »

:eek: Stupidity.

I've just pointed out why your idea would never work and you say,

"For people possessing low IQs maybe :rolleyes:"

:rolleyes: I think that says it all about IQ's.......

CSF wrote: »

Nah, to be fair, its you making a show of yourself.

:eek: So I come back to somebody with a list of cons to there original post which is unworkable, (unless you have a low IQ and cannot work a camera) and I'm told I'm making a show of myself, there comments must have been the most stupid I've ever read on this forum, yet you are going to back them up.

Can you please explain why & how this would work.......

celticbest

Todays latest on the Referee fiasco,

Scotland's referees will today tell the Scottish Football Association that they will not call off their planned weekend strike, but Dutch referees are poised to ensure that the six Scottish Premier League fixtures and the ALBA Challenge Cup final will go ahead. (Daily Record)

The Scottish Football Association has provided an assurance to Scottish Premier League clubs that their matches will go ahead this weekend even if there is a strike by referees. (Daily Mail)

A large number of Scotland's category three referees are unhappy at the stance of their senior colleagues and are dismayed that there was no strike ballot among all members of the Senior Scottish Football Referees Association. (Daily Record)

Dempsey

celticbest wrote: »

Todays latest on the Referee fiasco,

Scotland's referees will today tell the Scottish Football Association that they will not call off their planned weekend strike, but Dutch referees are poised to ensure that the six Scottish Premier League fixtures and the ALBA Challenge Cup final will go ahead. (Daily Record)

The Scottish Football Association has provided an assurance to Scottish Premier League clubs that their matches will go ahead this weekend even if there is a strike by referees. (Daily Mail)

A large number of Scotland's category three referees are unhappy at the stance of their senior colleagues and are dismayed that there was no strike ballot among all members of the Senior Scottish Football Referees Association. (Daily Record)

Division amongst the referee's ranks, they really have made a mess of this.

Looks like that call yesterday for all clubs didnt work

Dempsey

First we had fans, then media, then clubs, then ex-referee's, then politicians having a swipe at Scottish Referee's, now we have the Catholic Church putting their boot in!! Who's Next? Obama? :pac:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/scot_prem/9225458.stm

The Catholic Church want the Scottish Football Association to sack head of refereeing Hugh Dallas if he sent an "offensive" email about the Pope.

The circus is in town and its parked outside the offices of Hampden Park

celticbest

Dempsey wrote: »

The circus is in town and its parked outside the offices of Hampden Park

I thought all the Clown were inside Hampden...........

celticbest

SPL confirms all games are a go this weekend without Scottish ref's, http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s2&newsid=9685

bamboozle

cant understand why McDonald & Hugh Dallas have not been reprimanded & fired for their carryon in recent weeks.

We see in the premiership any high profile errors see Referees 'relegated' to a lower league to prove themselves.

McDonald makes a howler (i wont even claim conspiracy even though i dont see why he'd decide to change his mind) then lies to cover his ass, the linesman resigns as mcdonald was trying to point the finger at him.

yet 2 or 3 weeks later McDonald is handed another SPL game.

At the same time Referee's head Hugh Dallas is emailing anti pope/catholic emails from his official SFA email address.

Its beyond comical, these guys are rubbish at what they're being paid to do and the guys who are meant to be watching over them are even worse.

General Zod

ho ho ho.....

http://www.philmacgiollabhain.com/hugh-dallas-offered-to-call-off-strike-if-his-case-dropped/

November 25th 2010
Hugh Dallas offered to call off strike if his case dropped!

By: Phil Mac Giolla Bhain

Exclusive.

Hugh Dallas and Stewart Regan had a blazing row on Monday at the SFA
headquarters in Glasgow.

Hugh Dallas offered to call off the referees strike if his disciplinary
hearing into the Pope email was called off.

On hearing this ultimatum an SFA insider said:

“Regan went ballistic!”

Regan’s exact words, overheard by many in the office were:

“How effing dare you! Don’t ever raise that again! Those two matters are
totally unrelated!”

Hugh Dallas will hear his fate at 17.00hrs today in Glasgow.

In total eight people will be the subject of disciplinary hearings
today.

I have learned that the Scottish Football Association has a very clear
IT policy.

The passing on this email is clearly considered by Mr.Regan to be a
“breach of the organisation’s IT policy.”

In recent weeks several staff were reminded of this policy of forwarding
on offensive emails.

It was established inside the SFA that receiving such an email and
opening it was no offence.

However forwarding it on would be considered an offence punishable from
anything from a reprimand to dismissal.

I have also learned that if any of the other seven staff are dismissed
for passing on this email then Mr.Dallas will also be dismissed.

So, what is this strike about exactly, and what are the demands?

Dempsey

Hugh Dallas offered to call off strike if his case dropped!

If true, he should be sacked just for the suggestion. He's clearly abusing his position for self gain.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Eirebear

I'll take that one with a pinch of salt untill someone with a wee bit more gravitas than Phill comes along.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Dempsey

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/scot_prem/9230531.stm

The Scottish Football Association's head of referee development Hugh Dallas will take a few days out to consider his future.

Looks like he's going to walk before Stuart Regan kicks him out. Hopefully McDonald gets the boot aswell but I doubt the SFA are that proactive.

PauloMN

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That was always bollocks though. Death threats - much as I dispise the scumbags that do that kind of thing - how are they a reason to strike? You strike when you have an issue with your employer. Death threats are a matter for the police and the SFA.

The whole thing is a farce. And the Church getting their spoke in now also? Much as I consider myself Catholic, the Church would be wise to keep a low profile on these sorts of issues considering that they won't sack child abusers.

As for the refs striking - they should be ashamed of themselves. Dallas should be gone, McDonald should be gone, and the rest of them should be retrained (and injected with some green blood ) - end of story.

From Celtic's point of view, the board are absolutely right to put pressure on the SFA until improvements are seen. Personally I think Lenny should not comment anymore on ref performances for the time being, until things calm down.

celticbest

:eek: Hugh Dallas weighing up future at Scottish FA , why isn't he gone

wrote:

The Scottish Football Association's head of referee development Hugh Dallas will take a few days out to consider his future.

The former World Cup referee was the subject of an internal disciplinary hearing on Thursday evening.

SFA chief executive Stewart Regan investigated reports of an email sent from Dallas's SFA account on the day of the Pope's visit to Scotland.

No action has been taken against Dallas and Regan is remaining tight-lipped.

"I'm not prepared to comment on anything relating to any members of my staff," he said.

"We are undertaking a process at the moment and it would be unfair to make any comment on any member of staff until that process is completed."

The pressure on Dallas intensified on Wednesday when the Catholic Church intervened in the email row.

A church spokesman called for the SFA to sack Dallas if it was proved he had passed on a "tasteless message" relating to the Pope's visit to Scotland.

BBC Scotland has seen the email in question.

It was sent from the SFA account belonging to Dallas, contained no text, but included an image attachment of a school crossing sign with a silhouette of an adult holding a child's hand and the word "caution".

Beneath the road sign were words making reference to the Pope's arrival in Scotland on 16 September.

Dallas, who officiated at two World Cups, in 1998 and 2002, has been the SFA's head of referee development since June 2009.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/scot_prem/9230531.stm

General Zod

Eirebear wrote: »

I'll take that one with a pinch of salt untill someone with a wee bit more gravitas than Phill comes along.

Phil has been first on every bit of news about this strike.

celticbest

Check this out,

Scottish Football Association chief executive Stewart Regan tells Celtic to get over the Dougie McDonald refereeing controversy at Tannadice in October. (Daily Mail, Daily Record)

The whole reason the strike has come about and Celtic are told to forget about it....I hope they keep pushing until he's sacked which would be the proper outcome for the whole affair.

TV Deals under threat ?????

Regan's counterpart at the Scottish Premier League, Neil Doncaster, says the strike action by the referees this weekend could jeopardise TV deals with Sky and ESPN. (Daily Record)

Eirebear

Well, here is the brave/stupid (I cant decide!) man who is rumoured to be officiating the Celtic V ICT game on Saturday AND the Rangers V Dundee Utd game on Sunday!

Let the games begin!

http://worldreferee.com/site/copy.php?linkID=34&linkType=referee&contextType=bio

A Dub in Glasgo

I must say it is a great opportunity to get some experience for the ref

IvySlayer

Can the Irish refs not do some cover?

Dempsey

IvySlayer wrote: »

Can the Irish refs not do some cover?

They refused to

Eirebear

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I must say it is a great opportunity to get some experience for the ref

The guy who is 12th on the list of ref's who have taken charge of most CL matches?

Eirebear

Dempsey wrote: »

They refused to

2 Portugese officials who were penciled in for the Hibs match tomorrow, landed at Glasgow Airport and got straight back on the plane to Portugal!

Its ****ing mayhem!

karma_

Eirebear wrote: »

2 Portugese officials who were penciled in for the Hibs match tomorrow, landed at Glasgow Airport and got straight back on the plane to Portugal!

Its ****ing mayhem!

Were they intimidated? Seems strange to fly over then have a change of heart.

Eirebear

karma_ wrote: »

Were they intimidated? Seems strange to fly over then have a change of heart.

Dunno, thats all i have from the 6 O'Clock News. They were saying aswell that the polish lads who pulled out at the last minute had been told that they were on a "referee exchange trip".

They were quick to stress that there was nothing to suggest the SFA had given them this info.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/212103-scottish-football-in-turmoil-after-polish-referees-withdraw/

A Dub in Glasgo

It is not a strike anyway, it is a protest..... apparantly

Dempsey

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

It is not a strike anyway, it is a protest..... apparantly

Good luck to them when they want the Grade 2's and 3's to back them up in a ballot of any sort. They are not happy about being left out of the loop.

I reckon only the SPL matches will go ahead for definate, with all these officials doing a last minute u turn, its going to ruin alot of people's weekends.

Brewster

I was away for a few days, hows is the Scottish footballing refereeing fiasco!? I just saw on SSN that the SFA didn't tell them why the Scottish refs were striking in the first place!! The Israelies seem to be heading home now... Should never have come to this.

A Dub in Glasgo

Brewster wrote: »

I was away for a few days, hows is the Scottish footballing refereeing fiasco!? I just saw on SSN that the SFA didn't tell them why the Scottish refs were striking in the first place!! The Israelies seem to be heading home now... Should never have come to this.

Apparantly they are not striking, they are protesting. According to the BBC, there is a full SPL card this weekend. Afew postponements due to the cold weather will help the SFA!

Coillte_Bhoy

Hugh Dallas is gone according to STV:D

Dempsey

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Hugh Dallas is gone according to STV:D

Please do not be messing with us!! :pac:

1st positive step in this whole mess

EDIT

BBC Scotland are reporting it too!

PARKHEAD67

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Apparantly they are not striking, they are protesting. According to the BBC, there is a full SPL card this weekend. Afew postponements due to the cold weather will help the SFA!

Is there still a full SPL programme after the Portuguese boys changing their mind after flying in to Glasgow? What the hell was that about??And another thing-Why didnt the Irish refs go over-being off season? This ref solidarity stuff is bulls**t. These Scottish refs are acting like spoiled little schoolkids. Its all evil Lennons fault no doubt:mad:.Seems like hes about to be at fault for the holocaust next. "Lennon did all dis-we arra peeple-no surrender-the famine is over go home-Walter always has dignity-up to our knees in fenian blood" etc, etc.

Dempsey

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Is there still a full SPL programme after the Portuguese boys changing their mind after flying in to Glasgow? What the hell was that about??And another thing-Why didnt the Irish refs go over-being off season? This ref solidarity stuff is bulls**t. These Scottish refs are acting like spoiled little schoolkids. Its all evil Lennons fault no doubt:mad:.Seems like hes about to be at fault for the holocaust next. "Lennon did all dis-we arra peeple-no surrender-the famine is over go home-Walter always has dignity-up to our knees in fenian blood" etc, etc.

The foreign referee's are right to standby referee's in other countries as they would like the same shown to them if they ever had a problem.

If I was a referee, I'd want to steer clear of a fiasco like this too, you cant blame foreign referee's for turning around and going home when they finally found out what exactly was happening.

The thing is the way that the Scottish referee's have gone on strike and I think Craig Brown has clearly explained how childish they have acted since sunday

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/scot_prem/9233359.stm

"I think the Scottish Referees' Association have embarrassed football in Scotland by taking this action, because surely there are five other agencies they should have dealt with before going on strike," said Brown.

"They should have spoken to the managers' union, the players' union if they've got an issue with players, the SFL, the SPL and the SFA.

"They should have spoken to all five round a table and then, if they still felt aggrieved, they might have said 'we are going to go on strike'."

"It would have been less cowardly. It's cowardice if they don't come out and specifically say.

"They should say specifically what the issue is. The way to resolve it is dialogue, not strike. That is a last resort, I'd have thought."

PARKHEAD67

Dempsey wrote: »

The foreign referee's are right to standby referee's in other countries as they would like the same shown to them if they ever had a problem.

If I was a referee, I'd want to steer clear of a fiasco like this too, you cant blame foreign referee's for turning around and going home when they finally found out what exactly was happening.

The thing is the way that the Scottish referee's have gone on strike and I think Craig Brown has clearly explained how childish they have acted since sunday

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/scot_prem/9233359.stm

I saw brown on sky earlier. How did the Portuguese not know why they were being called to ref in a foreign country beforehand??This is baffling to me.Do they not read papers, or use the internet, or even ask their head of football why theyre being sent to cold, snowy Scotland??They flew in and then flew back. Who spoke to them? Seems very odd and very suspicious.Im getting pretty tired of this Lennon-baiting too. He speaks his mind, and Celtic have had some truly, astonishing decisions go against them in the last while(Very long while in my mind).Sir Alex Ferguson and Wenger give out about ref all the time. Whats so bloody special about the shower of Scottish refs. If the decisions that have gone against Celtic in O.F. games had gone against United in LIverpool-United games can you imagine how Ferguson would react???

Dempsey

The media are trying to paint this bad image of Lennon alright. You'd swear that he's the first manager to be sent to the stand over a bad decision against his team. The levels that the scottish media often stoop to for a story is pathetic. Its like a bunch of amatuers are making the papers up there.

PARKHEAD67

Dempsey wrote: »

The media are trying to paint this bad image of Lennon alright. You'd swear that he's the first manager to be sent to the stand over a bad decision against his team. The levels that the scottish media often stoop to for a story is pathetic. Its like a bunch of amatuers are making the papers up there.

The only way to sicken em is to win the title.Scottish football is steeped in Rangers to win.John Reid asked the refs to nominate who they support(like they do in England.-Cant ref team you support.) and now they're all striking. I wonder why. If asked in a lie detector situation Id say 80-90% would be supporters of the peeeple. HAVE THEY SOMETHING TO HIDE? You bloody well bet they do!

ziggy

This post has been deleted.