I got undertaken last night

JamesBond2010

Originally Posted by Godge
This whole thread strikes me as an argument between a number of sets of bad drivers with bad manners.

It is bad driving not to move into the hard shoulder when you are driving significantly below the speed limit and the visibility is the same to allow those travelling at the speed limit to overtake you.

Hissing Sid wrote: »

What kind of gob****e actually believes that a driver should pull into the hard shoulder to allow a speeder to pass ?
Un ****ing believable.

Sorry But where does it Say HE WAS SPEEDING IN THIS POST(the Speeder) he has not gone over the Speed limit... he should if he is doing 30 to 50km/h and is well under the speed limit & holding up the rest of the road.You can get fined for driving too slow. i cant think of the rule know. you are impeding traffic behind you.

it is like in your driving test you can fail for going too slow."Failing to Progress"

x in the city

me for one...

if you want to dwaddle along at 40 mph or so work away, but dont be an a$$ as there are more competent drivers on the road who might wish to get to where they are going a wee bit sooner.

hard shoulders and slow lanes are there for usless drivers like you who, most likely would take a few hours to pass out slow moving trucks and tractors and so forth also.

I have seen that all the time, idiot drivers up the arse of trucks and reluctant to pass them out, leading to massive tail backs.

ditto....

next


edit: slow drivers should be pulled over by the cops imo, they are much a danger to the road as anyone

JamesBond2010

Tractors on the road

A tractor used in a public place must obey the laws governing road traffic.
If you are driving a tractor, you should keep left to let faster traffic pass. Your driving mirror must provide an adequate view of the road to the back.
Do not carry a passenger unless the tractor is equipped to carry one.




this out of the rules of the road book. it is on a bout Tractors but also can be applied to slow moving Cars. Cause some of those tractors can go quick as well.


http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/respecting-other-road-users/other-road-users_agricultural-machinery.html

BrianD3

While I find slow drivers annoying I'd never expect someone doing 50 mph to drive in the hard shoudler at night to let me past. There is too big a chance of hitting something that isn't illuminated if you drive in the HS at that speed with dipped headlights. This possibility exists when driving on the actual carriageway too but is much reduced.

Zubeneschamali

I remember one time driving at night on the old N4 near Clonard (all now bypassed by the Motorway). It was a National route, 100 km/hr limit single lane road with a hard shoulder, very busy.

I was in a line of traffic doing about 80, with morons nice young men trying to make progess overtaking at oncoming traffic, when what appears but an unlit JCB driving up the hard shoulder against the direction of traffic.

If I or any of the drivers in that line had been pulling over to let the boy racers skip the queue, someone would have died.

Hissing Sid

x in the city wrote: »

me for one...

hard shoulders and slow lanes are there for usless drivers like you who, most likely would take a few hours to pass out slow moving trucks and tractors and so forth also.

If anyone actually believes that, they should not be on the road.

doolox

If you find that you cannot drive at your chosen speed on the hard shoulder why not slow down, pull in and STOP if necessary to let the speed demon behind you on his merry way.

I have one major reservation with people going slow with "faster" traffic behind them. It causes a hazard that could last up to an hour on some of our twisty back roads. Every drivers duty should be to eliminate that hazard as soon as possible.

Fast drivers should indicate and take up a position to CLEARLY show their intention to overtake. Not tailgate.

Slow drivers should pull in as close to the left as possible to allow overtaking.

In extreme cases, when followed very closely by a faster car behind me I have pulled in and stopped rather than cause a hazard which could last for half an hour or so on a typical night-time journey on our rural roads.

I do not accept the excuse of not seeing the road ahead clearly to pull in when you have the option of slowing down and stopping to allow faster traffic to go.

Sometimes it is not possible to do this as in heavy traffic but I find it much safer to drive on my own at night without either following closely a car ahead of me or being followed closely by a car behind me. I consider pulling in and stopping if necessary a good investment in time and energy to achieve this.

stevenmu

What would happen if the slower driver pulled into the hard shoulder to let the faster driver by, just as the faster driver starts to undertake?

Hissing Sid

Hissing Sid wrote: »

If anyone actually believes that, they should not be on the road.

Well technically one of the reasons for the hard shoulder is for slow moving traffic to move aside and allow people trying to make reasonable progress to pass. Some of the slow moving cars would in my opinion fall under the heading of incompetent drivers (useless drivers). Therefore there is not much wrong with what he says.

Lol at the people who think entering the hard shoulder is like being thrown onto the front line in WW2.

Atomic Pineapple

stevenmu wrote: »

What would happen if the slower driver pulled into the hard shoulder to let the faster driver by, just as the faster driver starts to undertake?

Its illegal to undertake except in very slow moving traffic so that should never happen.

Zubeneschamali

I have seen appalling driving where I come up behind a slower driver, without tailgating of course, and the damned fool dives into the shoulder to let me by in a horribly unsafe spot, near a junction, bend or blind crest.

Get out of there, fool, I'll pass you when it's good and safe!

Meanwhile, of course, the driver who's been following me gets impatient because I won't overtake in case the ditch-diving muppet has to pull back out suddenly...

JamesBond2010

Just about the Unlit JCb. He would have been done for Dangerous Driving if he was caught . cause he is driving a vehicle without the proper lights or equipment. by not having them on he could have caused a crash and he would be responsible for it..

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Get out of there, fool, I'll pass you when it's good and safe!

Meanwhile, of course, the driver who's been following me gets impatient because I won't overtake in case the ditch-diving muppet has to pull back out suddenly...

Serious facepalm

Someone pulls in and you wont pass them, no wonder the person behind you gets mad, I would. Stay off the road like a good lad.

djimi

Kenneth Uninterested Sleeper wrote: »

Serious facepalm

Someone pulls in and you wont pass them, no wonder the person behind you gets mad, I would. Stay off the road like a good lad.

To be fair I would feel exactly the same way. If someone pulls in to let me past then great, but if I see something in the hard shoulder that they havent seen that might be a cause for them to pull back out suddenly then Im not going to pass them. Quite frankly I dont really care what the person behind me thinks; its my car that would get hit, not theirs. If the person is willing to pull over once then theyll probably do so again when it is safer to do so.

Zubeneschamali

Kenneth Uninterested Sleeper wrote: »

Stay off the road like a good lad.

Right back atcha!

Anan1

Kenneth Uninterested Sleeper wrote: »

Serious facepalm

Someone pulls in and you wont pass them, no wonder the person behind you gets mad, I would. Stay off the road like a good lad.

Please tell me you're not serious? Just because someone pulls in to let you past doesn't make it safe to do so.

Zubeneschamali

JamesBond2010 wrote: »

he could have caused a crash and he would be responsible for it..

See, I'm less interested in who will get the blame for the inevitable crash when driving dangerously in the hard shoulder, and more interested in not crashing!

JamesBond2010

it looks like he is taking the piss being sarcastic

Alun

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I have seen appalling driving where I come up behind a slower driver, without tailgating of course, and the damned fool dives into the shoulder to let me by in a horribly unsafe spot, near a junction, bend or blind crest.

Get out of there, fool, I'll pass you when it's good and safe!

Meanwhile, of course, the driver who's been following me gets impatient because I won't overtake in case the ditch-diving muppet has to pull back out suddenly...

+1000. It's ME who gets to decide when it's safe for ME to overtake, not the driver in front of me, and certainly not the one behind me.

JamesBond2010

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

See, I'm less interested in who will get the blame for the inevitable crash when driving dangerously in the hard shoulder, and more interested in not crashing!

how would u be driving dangerously!!! u would see him if u were in front & would know not to pull behind the****** fool with no lights wait till u passed him out.or it was safe to kind of pull in!!

Anan1

Anan1 wrote: »

Please tell me you're not serious? Just because someone pulls in to let you past doesn't make it safe to do so.

Obviously if it is clear that the person is going to have to pull out again before I can get passed them (which only takes a few seconds) I wouldn't but its very rare for someone to pull in unless the hard shoulder is clear, the only time this really arises is if a line of cars is passing a slow moving car and the car eventually come to an obstruction in the hard shoulder, then you would obviously hold back.

I have on the other had seen people not overtake a car that has moved aside for absolutely no reason which is why I was possibly a bit heated with my reply.

JamesBond2010

Alun wrote: »

+1000. It's ME who gets to decide when it's safe for ME to overtake, not the driver in front of me, and certainly not the one behind me.

but are'int u as bad then as the driver in front of u when he thinks its safe to pull in and & overtake (just saying)

Sofiztikated

draffodx wrote: »

Its illegal to undertake except in very slow moving traffic so that should never happen.

Should never happen. SHOULD. But according to the OP, it did happen.

Kenneth Uninterested Sleeper wrote: »

Well technically one of the reasons for the hard shoulder is for slow moving traffic to move aside and allow people trying to make reasonable progress to pass. Some of the slow moving cars would in my opinion fall under the heading of incompetent drivers (useless drivers). Therefore there is not much wrong with what he says.

Lol at the people who think entering the hard shoulder is like being thrown onto the front line in WW2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder_(road)

Point out to exactly where that you see anything about slow moving traffic moving to the hard shoulder?

Yes, I would also class SOME slow moving cars as incompetent drivers, but not all.

I've also often come up behind slow drivers, and they sway into the shoulder, and I won't pass. Why? On-coming cars being unpredictable, unsafe driving conditions, I see something in the HS that they haven't seen.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/good-driving-practice/overtaking.html

Keep left, yes, but no need to enter the shoulder.

JamesBond2010

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Should never happen. SHOULD. But according to the OP, it did happen.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder_(road)

Point out to exactly where that you see anything about slow moving traffic moving to the hard shoulder?

Yes, I would also class SOME slow moving cars as incompetent drivers, but not all.

I've also often come up behind slow drivers, and they sway into the shoulder, and I won't pass. Why? On-coming cars being unpredictable, unsafe driving conditions, I see something in the HS that they haven't seen.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/good-driving-practice/overtaking.html

Keep left, yes, but no need to enter the shoulder.

Are tractors included in that slow moving traffic????


just move over a small bit not all the way the way if u know what i mean.

JamesBond2010

JamesBond2010 wrote: »

Tractors on the road

A tractor used in a public place must obey the laws governing road traffic.
If you are driving a tractor, you should keep left to let faster traffic pass. Your driving mirror must provide an adequate view of the road to the back.
Do not carry a passenger unless the tractor is equipped to carry one.




this out of the rules of the road book. it is on a bout Tractors but also can be applied to slow moving Cars. Cause some of those tractors can go quick as well.


http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/respecting-other-road-users/other-road-users_agricultural-machinery.html

IF u were talking about tractors as well here earlier

Sofiztikated

Sofiztikated wrote: »

On-coming cars being unpredictable,

But probably the main reason people need slower moving cars to move to the hard shoulder is that there is on coming traffic and its impossible to pass unless they move aside.

If there is no on coming cars you can usually just overtake normally.

Look its common courtesy to move aside for faster moving traffic, the hard shoulder is not a war zone. I have spent many many miles in the Hard shoulder in tractors (travelling nearly as fast as a lot of the slow cars) and its not nearly as bad as some people are making out here.

Not pulling aside when it is safe to do so (which more often than not it is) is just acting the b***ocks. To be honest the worst roads are the ones where there is no hard shoulder and you get stuck behind someone as they should actually find a place to stop to allow the traffic past but they never do, they are the ones who think they own the road not the the person who wants to make good progress.

Sofiztikated

JamesBond2010 wrote: »

Are tractors included in that slow moving traffic????


just move over a small bit not all the way the way if u know what i mean.

JamesBond2010 wrote: »

IF u were talking about tractors as well here earlier

Do you know you are quoting your own posts?

Yes, tractors are slow moving. Keep left to allow faster moving traffic pass. But there's still NOTHING about having to move into the hard shoulder.

Having said that, I just went through the rules of the road, and it does say that traffic may briefly move into the hard shoulder to let people pass, if the way is clear of pedestrians, cyclists and obstacles.

The point is, traffic MAY move. IF the way is clear. And at night, you cannot be sure.

EDIT: There is a difference between may and have to.

Zubeneschamali

Kenneth Uninterested Sleeper wrote: »

the only time this really arises is if a line of cars is passing a slow moving car and the car eventually come to an obstruction in the hard shoulder

Ah yes, dopey "polite" Tiida-man who pulls over for nox to pass, only to find himself trapped in the shoulder as a whole tailback tries to get by at once, each driver thinking:

a) there's room for one more
b) if I let him out, I'll never get by
c) Ha ha, sucker!

Eventually Tiida-man has to slam on or barge back out, and next time, he won't be extending any courtesies to the noxes behind him.

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Ah yes, dopey "polite" Tiida-man who pulls over for nox to pass, only to find himself trapped in the shoulder as a whole tailback tries to get by at once, each driver thinking:

a) there's room for one more
b) if I let him out, I'll never get by
c) Ha ha, sucker!

Eventually Tiida-man has to slam on or barge back out, and next time, he won't be extending any courtesies to the noxes behind him.

And its ok for him to have caused a tailback of cars in the first place?

Sofiztikated

Kenneth Uninterested Sleeper wrote: »

And its ok for him to have caused a tailback of cars in the first place?

So he's driving at what he deems a safe speed, what is the harm? Would you prefer he drives at a faster, but unsafe speed?

JamesBond2010

Keep to the left to left FASTER TRAFFIC PASS. THe Hard Shoulder is on the left is it not .it says you should. " you should keep left to let faster traffic pass. Your driving mirror must provide an adequate view of the road to the back"

Sofiztikated

Sofiztikated wrote: »

So he's driving at what he deems a safe speed, what is the harm? Would you prefer he drives at a faster, but unsafe speed?

Id prefer I wasn't delayed by a rolling road block.

If I can pass or he pulls aside I'm not bothered about what speed he travels at but I am absolutely sick and tired of my journeys taking longer than they should because of getting stuck behind slow moving cars.

Sofiztikated

JamesBond2010 wrote: »

Keep to the left to left FASTER TRAFFIC PASS. THe Hard Shoulder is on the left is it not .it says you should. " you should keep left to let faster traffic pass. Your driving mirror must provide an adequate view of the road to the back"

If you want to go down that line, when turning right, you should keep right. To do this I could move into the right hand land, into oncoming traffic, but that would be stupid, right?

Zubeneschamali

Kenneth Uninterested Sleeper wrote: »

And its ok for him to have caused a tailback of cars in the first place?

You can collect a tailback of cars on many national routes just by sticking to the speed limits.

Sofiztikated

Kenneth Uninterested Sleeper wrote: »

Id prefer I wasn't delayed by a rolling road block.

If I can pass or he pulls aside I'm not bothered about what speed he travels at but I am absolutely sick and tired of my journeys taking longer than they should because of getting stuck behind slow moving cars.

I'd prefer if people weren't assholes on the road, full stop. It would make my journeys a lot easier.

So its a case of "**** him, as long as I get what I want!" then?

JamesBond2010

Sofiztikated wrote: »

If you want to go down that line, when turning right, you should keep right. To do this I could move into the right hand land, into oncoming traffic, but that would be stupid, right?

i just saying what is says in the rule book

Turning right from a major road onto a minor road

• Check your mirrors and blind spots well in advance for traffic following behind you and give a right turn signal.
• As soon as you can do so safely, take up a position just left of the middle of the road or in the space provided for right-turning traffic.
• Where possible, leave room for other vehicles to pass on the left.
• Do not turn the steering wheel until you are ready to make the turn.
• When a safe gap occurs in oncoming traffic, finish your turn so that you enter the left-hand side of the road into which you are turning.
• Do not cut the corner when you turn. Do not make a Ôswan neckÕ by passing the correct turning point and then having to turn back into the road you want to enter.

here info on turning right for u

Zubeneschamali

Kenneth Uninterested Sleeper wrote: »

I am absolutely sick and tired of my journeys taking longer than they should because of getting stuck behind slow moving cars.

Get a bike?

JamesBond2010

BEAR ATTACKS!!!!:D:D:D:D

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You can collect a tailback of cars on many national routes just by sticking to the speed limits.

If Im honest I feel a person travelling at the speed limit should still allow faster traffic past, but I would force this opinion so much as it is has less ground to stand on, it is how I feel though.

JamesBond2010

JamesBond2010 wrote: »

BEAR ATTACKS!!!!:D:D:D:D

Anyone get attacked in the Cavan Area!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Get a bike?

Aside from the fact Id most likely kill myself with a motorbike, I like cars and I also usually have a lot of stuff with me in the car so a bike would be no use to me.

stevenmu

draffodx wrote: »

Its illegal to undertake except in very slow moving traffic so that should never happen.

True, but according to the OP here it did, and some people seem to think it was a good thing to do.

stevenmu

stevenmu wrote: »

True, but according to the OP here it did, and some people seem to think it was a good thing to do.

In fairness there may be a few conflicting points of view going on in this thread with regards to when people should/should not move aside but I don't think anybody is arguing that what happened the op was correct. It was completely unacceptable.

I think its a very very isolated incident, in my 7 years driving I cant ever remember being undertaken by someone using a hard shoulder.

Tragedy

Someone quoted wikipedias article on hard shoulders to argue that it's illegal to drive in them.

After several people pointed out it was legal.

Oh dear.

Sofiztikated

Tragedy wrote: »

Someone quoted wikipedias article on hard shoulders to argue that it's illegal to drive in them.

After several people pointed out it was legal.

Oh dear.

Someone quoted wikipedia articles on hard shoulders to argue that it is dangerous to drive in them. Same said person also quoted the ROTR that drivers may move into the hard shoulder, should it be safe to do so, to allow faster moving traffic pass.

Oh dear.

Many things that are not illegal are dangerous to do.

Tragedy

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Someone quoted wikipedia articles on hard shoulders to argue that it is dangerous to drive in them.

No, what you said was
"Point out to exactly where that you see anything about slow moving traffic moving to the hard shoulder?"

That's arguing that you aren't allowed drive in them, you didn't mention danger.

Same said person also quoted the ROTR that drivers may move into the hard shoulder, should it be safe to do so, to allow faster moving traffic pass.

Oh dear.

Oh dear indeed, you can't even remember your own post!

Many things that are not illegal are dangerous to do.

And?

Sofiztikated

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Should never happen. SHOULD. But according to the OP, it did happen.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder_(road)

Point out to exactly where that you see anything about slow moving traffic moving to the hard shoulder?

Yes, I would also class SOME slow moving cars as incompetent drivers, but not all.

I've also often come up behind slow drivers, and they sway into the shoulder, and I won't pass. Why? On-coming cars being unpredictable, unsafe driving conditions, I see something in the HS that they haven't seen.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/good-driving-practice/overtaking.html

Keep left, yes, but no need to enter the shoulder.

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Do you know you are quoting your own posts?

Yes, tractors are slow moving. Keep left to allow faster moving traffic pass. But there's still NOTHING about having to move into the hard shoulder.

Having said that, I just went through the rules of the road, and it does say that traffic may briefly move into the hard shoulder to let people pass, if the way is clear of pedestrians, cyclists and obstacles.

The point is, traffic MAY move. IF the way is clear. And at night, you cannot be sure.

EDIT: There is a difference between may and have to.

Tragedy wrote: »

No, what you said was
"Point out to exactly where that you see anything about slow moving traffic moving to the hard shoulder?"

That's arguing that you aren't allowed drive in them, you didn't mention danger.


Oh dear indeed, you can't even remember your own post!


And?

I do realise my error. And you will see in the second post, I did state that when I went through the ROTR, drivers may move in.

My very first post on this topic was about the hard shoulder not being a safe driving zone.

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I stayed out of this argument for so long, but now I have to hop in here and back you up.

I had a similar argument with some on here not so long about about the same thing.

The hard shoulder is not a driving lane. End of discussion. And the "Oh you should be able to see every obstacle" argument is moot. Its dark. You are driving with lights on. The lights will not alert you to a car pulling out of a driveway. The lights will not alert you to a pothole filled with water.

Is it courteous to move in and allow someone to pass by, yes. Is it courteous to move into a part of the road which puts you and other road users at risk? Eh, no that would be classed as stupid.

What if the OP had thought, "Oh, here comes a car, better move in?" We could be reading about a fatality this morning. He didn't know the undertaking car was going to undertake. Likelyhood is that they were going to attempt said move anyway.

Personally, will I allow faster cars past me? Yes. In daylight, when I have a better view of what is coming up, and even then, its only moving as far to the left as I DEEM SAFE. If you are doing so with traffic oncoming, then no, I won't move, you can wait until said traffic has passed.

Is it annoying when I come across slower drivers, yes a little. Is it going to ruin my day? Not really.

As my last argument was about, what if the OP didn't think that driving at the higher speed was safe? Everyone is taught to match their speed to the driving conditions.

Noone MAKES you overtake. You overtake because YOU are moving faster than the slower vehicle. Its not up to the slower vehicle to ensure you have a safe space to overtake, that is up to you.

Also

Also

Tragedy wrote: »

You don't need to read the rules of the road to see other drivers doing it perfectly safely and to start emulating them.

I'd go mad if trucks by and large didn't pull into the hard shoulder to let cars past.

This is a damnedable stupid way to learn to drive. I've seen people drive home drunk perfectly safely, is it ok to emulate them?

Oh, and for the record, and I'll repeat myself, I do stick close to (and over) the speed limit, when I deem it safe to do so. I do move into the HS, when I deem it safe to do so. I do not alter these just because some arsebean is in a hurry.

kthnxbye.

Tragedy

Sofiztikated wrote: »

This is a damnedable stupid way to learn to drive. I've seen people drive home drunk perfectly safely, is it ok to emulate them?

Where did I say that was how people should learn to drive? It was in response to a poster saying that most people on this thread needed to learn the rules of the road vis-a-vis it being ok to drive in the hard shoulder when safe to do so.

Don't selectively quote me and put meanings you want in posts I wrote, you won't get away with it

dumb_parade

Tragedy wrote: »

Where did I say that was how people should learn to drive? It was in response to a poster saying that most people on this thread needed to learn the rules of the road vis-a-vis it being ok to drive in the hard shoulder when safe to do so.

Don't selectively quote me and put meanings you want in posts I wrote, you won't get away with it

No, i said, that you are giving people too much credit if you think they have read the rules of the road.

Sofiztikated

Tragedy wrote: »

Where did I say that was how people should learn to drive? It was in response to a poster saying that most people on this thread needed to learn the rules of the road vis-a-vis it being ok to drive in the hard shoulder when safe to do so.

Don't selectively quote me and put meanings you want in posts I wrote, you won't get away with it

That wasn't selective quoting. That was quoting exactly as you had written it.

What I was getting at, just because you haven't read the rules of the road, and you see people getting away with things, why should you emulate them? Don't mind what other people get away with, and continue to drive safely yourself.