Constitutionality of the bailout

paky

Cavehill Red wrote: »

As far as I can tell, any act of government (such as an EU treaty) that involves ceding any sovereignty to an outside agency requires a referendum approval by the people of Ireland, according to our constitution.

So my questions to you fine legal minds are these:

Does the bailout not constitutionally require referendum approval?

Might it be possible to challenge the constitutionality of any bailout agreement not approved by referendum in the Supreme Court?

no it doesnt require any approval. the people elected morons, if they dont like the decissions they make they can just elect some other morons.
there is no breach in the constitution

Jarndyce

OisinT wrote: »

Wait a "Constitutional Expert" Solicitor has agreed to take this on already?

The OP did not say that.

I should add that your derisive tone only further illustrates your lack of knowledge on the subject. Your responses thus far have come across as petulant and uninformed. Seeing as you are a moderator, I would expect to see less of the former.

FreudianSlippers

Jarndyce wrote: »

The OP did not say that.

You probably haven't read the whole thread so I'll go ahead and post the relevant post:

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Can I ask if any of you answering have a tertiary level specialty in Irish constitutional law or have ever been involved in a case involving constitutional law in the courts?

I can't make myself too clear here - I really only want to hear the opinions of constitutional lawyers on this.

I've even taking the liberty to highlight the relevant part in bold for you.

Jarndyce wrote: »

I should add that your derisive tone only further illustrates your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Where was my tone derisive? I merely asked whether OP hired a "Constitutional Expert" Solicitor already (less than 24 hours) after saying he was going to.

Furthermore, how does that in any way illustrate my lack of knowledge on the subject?

Jarndyce wrote: »

Your responses thus far have come across as petulant and uninformed. Seeing as you are a moderator, I would expect to see less of the former.

Please show me what posts are petulant and uninformed? OP has gotten nothing but informed responses and has been the petulant one.

This thread has annoyed me from the start really. What does OP want? Judge Hogan to come online and bang out a quick opinion? Michael Forde to take some time out and give him an extensive reply?

What will satisfy you?

My name is URL

Would the fact that 3 seperate bilateral loan agreements are included in the ESFS package have any bearing on this should it go to court?

evercloserunion

My name is URL wrote: »

Would the fact that 3 seperate bilateral loan agreements are included in the ESFS package have any bearing on this should it go to court?

Well, why do you think they would?

My name is URL

evercloserunion wrote: »

Well, why do you think they would?

I don't, necessarily. I just keep hearing how the deal does not constitute an international agreement

2° The State shall not be bound by any international agreement involving a charge upon public funds unless the terms of the agreement shall have been approved by Dáil Éireann.

I was only wondering whether the deals made bilaterally between 'ourselves' & Sweden, Britain and Denmark would be deemed as non-international just because they were included in the overall package or would their inclusion in it be a basis for challenging the entire bailout.

Price11

85 Billion Euro Bailout


.ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage p { padding: 0px; }.ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage { font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;This bailout is a sellout of our country. It is not a simple loan. It is a "rape of the Irish people" according to Gonzalo Lira , Global Economic Expert. In an interview on Max Keiser 100 rt, Lira says Ireland is cursed with terrible political decisions which guaranteed huge bank debt, far too big for the country to carry.
AIB falsified its books to get bailout money. What did the banks do with the bailout money? Awarded themselves huge bonuses, a practice that continues to go on. Ireland was solvent and meeting its payments until politicians guaranteed the bank debt in 2008, on the shoulders of the Irish taxpayer, a millstone around their necks. Is Ireland really bankrupt? Lira says no, not if we let the banks fail. Are Irish politicians corrupt? Maybe, says Lira, but they are certainly stupid, incompetent and running amuck with short term thinking.
Over 50,000 people marched in Dublin on Nov. 27 protesting. Many see the bailout as sinking the ship. Why is Ireland in so much trouble, all of a sudden? Thank Germany's Angela Merkel. Three week ago she talked about senior bond holders taking a haircut. The entire bond market panicked and refused to lend to Ireland at affordable rates. What was Merkl talking about? Senior bond holders who hold Ireland's debt are Germany and the UK. "Taking a haircut" means they don't want to lose a penny. Olli Rehn, EU Commissioner for Monetary Affairs also says "no haircuts for senior bondholders" .
What's so bad about the 85 billion euro bailout? Fist, its at a high interest rate, average 5.8%, a repayment of 5 billion euro a year on interest rate alone, 20 % of tax revenue. Right off the top before any other bills are paid. Second, 35 billion earmarked for the banks. Money down a black hole. But, wait a minute, Olli Rehn say its self financing, what does he mean? Ireland must find 17.5 billion from its pension funds and reserves for bailout. Ireland has one major asset, its pension fund, and that's going down a black hole too. Goodbye pensions. Lira says the piranha banks want to loot it, before moving on to Portugal, Spain and Italy to strip their assets. Divide and Conquer.
Who will gain from this besides the banks? Germany, of course, who started the panic. Keiser and Stacey Herbert a political analyst, say Germany will gain in two ways. The cheap euro will increase their export markets while their competition is crippled with debt. Why are they pushing the bailout through, when Ireland is fully funded until Summer 2011? Good question. What's the rush? My father always told me "Follow the Money". Huge interest payments out of Ireland, the Pension fund gone, 35 billion to the banks. You do the math.
Max Keiser warns " Wake up Ireland, 'you're being sold down the river by your own government in bed with the bankers, pushing debt ridden junk loans on Ireland. You'll become a vassal corporate state of the international banking cartel". Lira advises " Default on the debt and restructure the Irish banks. Start off with a clean slate. Take the hit now" instead of mortgaging the future of your children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. Later will be a lot worse." Iceland didn't take on bank debt. They let banks fail, took the hit and are now rebuilding."
Nigel Farage, UKIP MEP, blasted the European Parliament for taking away Ireland's democracy, on 24 Nov, 2010. In an emotional speech, he asked "who the hell do you think you people are?" Why did Olli Rehn tell Ireland they have to agree their budget, before they are allowed to have an election? "If you rob people of their identity and democracy all they are left with is nationalism and violence. You are very very dangerous people indeed." Now, Olli Rehn is warning the opposition that if they get voted in they better not renege on the IMF-ECB bailout.
John Wolfe, the founder of Seniors Solidarity Party, has legally challenged the government's constitutional right to accept a bailout from the EU and IMF, on the grounds that Irish people did not vote for taking on a massive debt of 85 billion euro or taking money out of the Pension Fund. Sinn Fein is taking a different tack, on the basis of whether politicians can sign an international agreement without putting it to a vote before the Dail.
I ask: What is the big rush to get the bailout through? Why can we not have an election and time to weigh our options, when we are funded until next summer? Who are we rescuing? Ireland or the banks?
Although the bailout was approved by EU Finance Ministers on Nov 29 it still has to pass the Dail on Dec 7. A key date for Ireland. We are standing at the Rubicon of our national sovereignty.

References:
Nigel Farage "Who the Hell do you think you are" YouTube
Max Keiser 100 rt video

FreudianSlippers

Price11 wrote: »

85 Billion Euro Bailout...

Almost positive this is spam, but I'm giving the poster an opportunity to correct this as (if he is a legitimate poster) it is his first post

234

Any news on this or was the OP just blowing smoke?

evercloserunion

234 wrote: »

Any news on this or was the OP just blowing smoke?

Haven't heard anything in the news anyway. My guess is that it's the latter, and I am certainly not surprised.