Fine Gael overall majority: our best hope

John 301, please read the forum charter on how to post on this forum. People being uncivil will not be tolerated.

Rebelheart

I'm still waiting for Fine Gael's proposals to change the electoral system and end nepotistic dynasties like the Brutons continuing in public life. The current electoral system is an enormous problem and really is the elephant in the room in this discussion. While the multi-seat PR-STV electoral system continues, changing the personnel will merely reproduce the corruption of the existing system but this time it'll be done by a different clique. This is not rocket science.

Fine Gael is not less corrupt than Fianna Fáil: it has merely not been in government enough to demonstrate its corruption to the same extent. Anybody with any knowledge of the local Blueshirt grassroots can list the dodgy Fine Gaelers in their midst.

Giving any party an overall majority is, at best, naive, and at worst explicit support for abuse of power for their favoured clique. I suspect when it's far right libertarians supporting a Fine Gael overall majority, it's the latter.

Liam Byrne

Rebelheart wrote: »

Fine Gael is not less corrupt than Fianna Fáil: it has merely not been in government enough to demonstrate its corruption to the same extent.

That is a MASSIVE claim! :eek: Are you trying to suggest that all people in power are automatically corrupt ?

What happened to presumption of innocence ?

And what about FG kicking out Lowry, despite the effect on their seats ? The same Lowry that FF welcomed with open arms.

FG have a track record of dealing with corrupt individuals, while FF haven't.

So before you make claims about FG not being less corrupt than FF, I'd check the number of people found to be corrupt in both organisations (particularly at high levels) and then I'd check what the respective parties did when those individuals were found out.

Otherwise don't make claims that the facts don't support. Your claim is a joke.

kaiser sauze

Rebelheart wrote: »

I'm still waiting for Fine Gael's proposals to change the electoral system and end nepotistic dynasties like the Brutons continuing in public life. The current electoral system is an enormous problem and really is the elephant in the room in this discussion. While the multi-seat PR-STV electoral system continues, changing the personnel will merely reproduce the corruption of the existing system but this time it'll be done by a different clique. This is not rocket science.

Fine Gael is not less corrupt than Fianna Fáil: it has merely not been in government enough to demonstrate its corruption to the same extent. Anybody with any knowledge of the local Blueshirt grassroots can list the dodgy Fine Gaelers in their midst.

Giving any party an overall majority is, at best, naive, and at worst explicit support for abuse of power for their favoured clique. I suspect when it's far right libertarians supporting a Fine Gael overall majority, it's the latter.

Where are the Fine Gael Bertie Aherns, Michael Woods, CJ Haugheys, Ivor Callelys, Ray Burkes and Albert Reynolds?

T runner

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Try and keep the gender quotas out of this. Fairly off topic on an otherwise excellent thread.
/mod

Not having gender quotas as a FG policy in a country where we have never exceeded 13% female representation is a valid reason why a FG majority is not in our best interest.

If they are serious about radical change to the political system then this huge fault should not be overlooked. They are not serious.

To highlighty how important this issue is we can create a hypothetical situation.

Let us imagine gender quotas were brought in 10 years ago in ireland and all the major parties had atleast 30% women in Dail Eireann.

To attract 30% women from 4% what would FF have to do?

Heres a hint: In the corruption index 4 of the top 5 least corrupt countries have over 30% women representation. 3 of those countries used quotas to get there.

Rwanda which had an index of 1 being one of the most corrupt countries in the world now has an index of almost 5: head and shoulders above any other country in Central Africa after quotas were introduced and 55% female representation.

Would the corruption, croneyism, boys clubs etc that undoubtedly was a vital ingrediant in the banking crises have been able to survive in FF had 30% + female TDS? I dont think so, not to a significant level.

Thats how vital this issue is. And we are well into the 21st century with still no sign of sorting this. In 30 years our successors here will be scratching their heads wondering why there is still croneyism, corruption and stupidity in Dail Eireann and the 13% statistic will still be staring them in the face.

If FG and any other party dont think its important then they damn well should!!!

invinciblePRSTV

Liam Byrne wrote: »

FG have a track record of dealing with corrupt individuals, while FF haven't.

So before you make claims about FG not being less corrupt than FF, I'd check the number of people found to be corrupt in both organisations (particularly at high levels) and then I'd check what the respective parties did when those individuals were found out.

Otherwise don't make claims that the facts don't support. Your claim is a joke.

FG have been heavily involved in corrupt transactions, just not to the same extent that FF by dint of them being in positions of power a lot more then FG.

Most prominent of all is of course the FG group of Cllrs, inc. prominent FG dynasty member Liam Cosgrave, on the Dublin Councils in the 1970s & 1980s, lots of cheques from developers, lots of corrupt decisions. Not illegal so they weren't wrong at the time.

Secondly is Garrett Fitzgerald and his 'special' relationship with AIB.

Other prominenet FGers involved in dubious activities were Coveney (1995) & the aforementioned Lowry.

FG, like FF, have a symbiotic relationship with corporate donations, much to the ruin of our democracy & public service. This is why when Kenny reversed FGs previous decision not to accept corporate donations (made in the aftermath of yet another scandal at the start of the 2000s) it indicates FG have yet to accept that the confluence of private money & public office is a threat to democracy.

Btw that's what we know, it would be libellous to suggest there is more but i have no doubt if the decisions taken by councils and TDs representations in the second half of the 20th Century were investigated in greater detail, we'd find plenty more dirt (from all parties, but really just FG & FF), but time has won on that one.

Thats why FG are the tweedledum to FFs tweedledee.

Rebelheart

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That is a MASSIVE claim! :eek: Are you trying to suggest that all people in power are automatically corrupt ?

Oh it's nothing of the sort. It's called realism. It's also experience borne of watching Fine Gael dominated councils, VECs and the like being lobbied to give contracts, jobs etc to their supporters - and doing so. It's through knowing people who have been told "that job's gone" or "that job's not gone so you should talk to such-and-such" when they inquire about applying for a particular job - you know, the jobs which specifically say "Canvassing will disqualify" but which really mean not canvassing will disqualify. And there have been so, so many contracts and jobs in the public service which have been decided by politicians. Fine Gaelers are behaving no differently to Fianna Fáilers in local government. This is the reality.

It's incomprehensibly naive to think that this carry-on is limited to Fianna Fáil given that back scratching sneaking regarderism is a strong feature of the Irish psyche - indeed, what's the point in having a political party unless you're going to promise to scratch each other's backs/support each other/ look after each other? Fine Gael is no more a meritocracy than any other political party so please stop dreaming.

As for corruption, nobody in their right mind would support giving an absolute majority government to a single party. As clichéd as it is, 'Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.' It is soft-headedness of the highest order to think Fine Gael will be the first majority government in Ireland not to be corrupt - particularly given the constraints and demands of the current Irish electoral system.

Rebelheart

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What happened to presumption of innocence ?

As a general rule, I don't trust people with power. This is actually a very rational, sane approach to life. Then, if they come through for the general good of this society, I'll be pleasantly surprised. If they don't I won't be going around in heaps screaming immaturely about betrayal.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And what about FG kicking out Lowry, despite the effect on their seats ? The same Lowry that FF welcomed with open arms.

Is this the same Fine Gael that Phil Hogan was forced to resign from for leaking confidential information to the press - only to be immediately rewarded with the Chairmanship of Fine Gael? The same Fine Gael which was paying its workers backhanders and not declaring them to Revenue not so long ago, and all of a sudden paid over £110,000 to them following a Revenue investigation into tax compliance? The same Fine Gael whose eminent members such as Liam Cosgrave and Tom Hand accepted bribes for rezoning? The same Fine Gael which had Fred Forsey as an elected politician, yes the same Fred Forsey who in September 2010 was in court for accepting €80,000 in bribes from a developer in 2006?

The same Fine Gael which hasn't had much possibility of being in power to be worthy of being bribed by any serious businessman? Watch all that change now.

Rebelheart

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So before you make claims about FG not being less corrupt than FF, I'd check the number of people found to be corrupt in both organisations

That isn't exactly SPSS-style social science research: there are far more people in Fianna Fáil, and Fianna Fáil has been in power for far longer than Fine Gael - there is bound to be more instances of corruption. It is power, not sitting in the Opposition, which corrupts most. Why is this so hard to understand?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Otherwise don't make claims that the facts don't support. Your claim is a joke.

If anything is the 'joke' here, it's your naivety. Let's see where all your self-righteous indignation will be when you're betrayed by Fine Gael in government. You'll move from your current anti-Fianna Fáil extreme to an anti-Fine Gael extreme when all along the problem is that you've never really examined why you need to demonise/romanticise a group. They are politicians: they all betray "believers" in the end. Don't say you haven't been warned.

I think we can felicitously finish with John Bruton's reported response when told of the demand by a Fine Gael politician for a £250,000 bribe: "There are no angels in the world or in Fine Gael". It's a pity some people are so desperate that they need heroes in Irish politics.

Andrea: "Unhappy is the land that breeds no hero."
Galileo: "No, Andrea: Unhappy is the land that needs a hero."

- Bertolt Brecht, Life of Galileo (1938), Scene 12,

Rebelheart

I notice none of you have tackled why Fine Gael is not willing to change the muti-seat PR-STV electoral system which we currently have. It is, as I said above, the elephant in the room of the Irish political system.


This most basic of reform is too much reform for them, it appears.

Lockstep

T runner wrote: »

Not having gender quotas as a FG policy in a country where we have never exceeded 13% female representation is a valid reason why a FG majority is not in our best interest.

If they are serious about radical change to the political system then this huge fault should not be overlooked. They are not serious.

To highlighty how important this issue is we can create a hypothetical situation.

Let us imagine gender quotas were brought in 10 years ago in ireland and all the major parties had atleast 30% women in Dail Eireann.

To attract 30% women from 4% what would FF have to do?

Heres a hint: In the corruption index 4 of the top 5 least corrupt countries have over 30% women representation. 3 of those countries used quotas to get there.

Rwanda which had an index of 1 being one of the most corrupt countries in the world now has an index of almost 5: head and shoulders above any other country in Central Africa after quotas were introduced and 55% female representation.

Would the corruption, croneyism, boys clubs etc that undoubtedly was a vital ingrediant in the banking crises have been able to survive in FF had 30% + female TDS? I dont think so, not to a significant level.

Thats how vital this issue is. And we are well into the 21st century with still no sign of sorting this. In 30 years our successors here will be scratching their heads wondering why there is still croneyism, corruption and stupidity in Dail Eireann and the 13% statistic will still be staring them in the face.

If FG and any other party dont think its important then they damn well should!!!

Don't argue with a Mod in thread, this is laid out in the Charter. If you have an issue with this, take it to Help Desk or feel free to PM me.

Liam Byrne

Rebelheart wrote: »

That isn't exactly SPSS-style social science research: there are far more people in Fianna Fáil, and Fianna Fáil has been in power for far longer than Fine Gael - there is bound to be more instances of corruption. It is power, not sitting in the Opposition, which corrupts most. Why is this so hard to understand?

How did FF's most corrupt get to the top ? How come FG's most corrupt are lower-level ?

You said that FG were as corrupt as FF, with absolutely nothing to back it up. I'm not so naive as to think that any organisation doesn't have a percentage of rats, but FF's are the ones that made it to the top and have ruined this country twice, with the FG & Labour coalition fixing the mess the last time around.

Rebelheart wrote: »

If anything is the 'joke' here, it's your naivety.

It's actually called hope.

Rebelheart wrote: »

Let's see where all your self-righteous indignation will be when you're betrayed by Fine Gael in government. You'll move from your current anti-Fianna Fáil extreme to an anti-Fine Gael extreme when all along the problem is that you've never really examined why you need to demonise/romanticise a group. They are politicians: they all betray "believers" in the end. Don't say you haven't been warned.

Condescending rubbish. I don't "romanticise" any group. I don't have blind faith in FG. I'm hoping they're significantly better (although that won't be hard) and if they prove to be corrupt you're damn right I'll object....because I'm consistent.....I detest corruption.

Why do I need to demonise scum ? Because if we all did that we might actually rule out corruption and send them a signal that it's unacceptable. And remember it's their choice whether they choose to act in a way that deserves the demonisation.

Soldie

Rebelheart wrote: »

I notice none of you have tackled why Fine Gael is not willing to change the muti-seat PR-STV electoral system which we currently have. It is, as I said above, the elephant in the room of the Irish political system.


This most basic of reform is too much reform for them, it appears.

And I notice that you don't make the same criticism of Labour -- the party you said you'll be voting for. Is it because they're not the British imperialists that your rabid paranoia leads you to believe Fine Gael are?

Joey the lips

I have to say i dont like fine gael. However I wish them well and would love to see them make govt by themselves because granted i dont like fine gael but i hate labour and i worry about a labor fine gael govt.

meglome

Rebelheart wrote: »

I notice none of you have tackled why Fine Gael is not willing to change the muti-seat PR-STV electoral system which we currently have. It is, as I said above, the elephant in the room of the Irish political system.

This most basic of reform is too much reform for them, it appears.

I don't think anyone is saying they are perfect, just best of the choices available.

Buford T Justice

Joey the lips wrote: »

I have to say i dont like fine gael. However I wish them well and would love to see them make govt by themselves because granted i dont like fine gael but i hate labour and i worry about a labor fine gael govt.

Do you have an alternative for Govt in your mind, if you don't like FG and LAB?

mb1725

Michael Noonan is showing a very good grasp of the finance and is also seems extremely well informed on international market issues. He is a very good communicator with what seems like a brain. I think I'd like to see him get a crack at the top job.

mistermouse

I worry about Fine Gael and labours Choices for candidates in the Donegal By-Election and most definately worry about Labours choice.

If these parties plan to let just anyone loose for the sake of getting a seat then it appears power at any cost is what is going on.

Political reform could start quite simply by selecting quality candidates.

Plus as someone said in another forum, their is a possibility that rewards will be handed out when either party return to power. Local political concerns will still be addressed because of our political system

Given the mess we are in and the failure of our system, the IMF (not the EU) would perhaps be left to run the economy for a while. They probably have less conflicts of interest.

All the parties like to play up to the EU whom are more interested in saddling the Irish Taxpayer with debt to protect their own interests/banks

jank

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How did FF's most corrupt get to the top ? How come FG's most corrupt are lower-level ?

You said that FG were as corrupt as FF, with absolutely nothing to back it up. I'm not so naive as to think that any organisation doesn't have a percentage of rats, but FF's are the ones that made it to the top and have ruined this country twice, with the FG & Labour coalition fixing the mess the last time around.



It's actually called hope.



Condescending rubbish. I don't "romanticise" any group. I don't have blind faith in FG. I'm hoping they're significantly better (although that won't be hard) and if they prove to be corrupt you're damn right I'll object....because I'm consistent.....I detest corruption.

Why do I need to demonise scum ? Because if we all did that we might actually rule out corruption and send them a signal that it's unacceptable. And remember it's their choice whether they choose to act in a way that deserves the demonisation.

Great rebuttal there Liam. FF is FF and FG is FG they are not the same, the may have some similarities but they are not the same.

david75

FG mismanaged that AIB/ICI bailout in the 80s remember. Hopefully their lesson has been learned. FF dont seem to have learned from it., but they do seem like the only real alternative right now, and say what you want about Kenny's apparent lack of cop on/charisma, he at least seems honest and upfront. They need to bring Bruton back into the fold. he has a keen mind and could be great in finance. They'll proably be getting my vote anyways. FF are gonna be decimated in this election hopefully.

Trojan

Sarah Carey has an interesting opinion piece in the Irish Times today: Cowen has one last chance to redeem himself. She talks about the need for Budget before Election, and I wouldn't have agreed before reading her argument, she makes a strong enough case to change my mind.

I like the individual Labour TDs, but see too many policy issues for me to back them strongly. I'd love to see political reform on the scale of Iceland, and my vote will definitely be FG if they're offering anything at all resembling reform.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I'd be strongly opposed to any change in our method of electing TDs to be honest. I can't see any fairer system.

Ciaran500

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I'd be strongly opposed to any change in our method of electing TDs to be honest. I can't see any fairer system.

So your strongly opposed to anyones plan cause you can't think of a better one?

Buford T Justice

mistermouse wrote: »

I worry about Fine Gael and labours Choices for candidates in the Donegal By-Election and most definately worry about Labours choice.

If these parties plan to let just anyone loose for the sake of getting a seat then it appears power at any cost is what is going on.

Political reform could start quite simply by selecting quality candidates.

At this stage, i think the by election is now moot. Might be a good yardstick for whats coming in early next year, but other than that, it doesn't mean anything really.

Trojan wrote: »

I like the individual Labour TDs, but see too many policy issues for me to back them strongly. I'd love to see political reform on the scale of Iceland, and my vote will definitely be FG if they're offering anything at all resembling reform.

Amongst other things, FG have planned major reform within Gov't and the public sector. http://www.finegael.ie/upload/ReinventingGovernment.pdf

Among the actions set out in Reinventing Government to make Fine Gael’s vision of Government a reality are:

The abolishing of over 145 state bodies and companies including the dismantling of the HSE and FAS and their replacement with better, more cost effective alternatives;

Saving over €5 billion, or 1 euro in 10 spent by public bodies, by confronting waste, duplication and inefficiency;

Externally recruiting new high level specialists in banking, taxation and macro economic forecasting to improve the Dept. of Finance’s capacity to deliver on key tasks;

At least 1/3rd of all appointments at a senior level in the Public Service (above PO level) will be made from outside the current system for a period of 5 years;

All lobbyists will have to be registered with the Standard’s in Public Office Commission and recent restrictions to the Freedom of Information Act will be reversed.

We will establish an Independent Fiscal Council to advise Parliament on issues such as borrowing levels, debt reduction and taxation planning. The Fiscal Council will be accountable to the Oireachtas Finance Committee. Unless there is a fundamental change in the way Government does its business, it will continue to be part of the problem rather than the solution. We need a Public Service that is smaller, better and one that gets things done. Through the systems and plans outlined in “Reinventing Government”, Fine Gael will make that happen.

Might not be an extraordinary reform, but its a good start and if they'll deliver on this, they have my vote

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I have a theory OP:

We all know there is no hope of a FG overall majority, so its not our best hope. The numbers wont add up.

The only numerical possibility for government with the policies you want is a FG/FF coalition.

I believe for obvious and understandeable reasons you didnt mention this in your OP.

To be brutally realistic. The only possible hope if you want to see the policies you are hoping for is a FG/FF coalition.

senordingdong

T runner wrote: »

I have a theory OP:

We all know there is no hope of a FG overall majority, so its not our best hope. The numbers wont add up.

The only numerical possibility for government with the policies you want is a FG/FF coalition.

I believe for obvious and understandeable reasons you didnt mention this in your OP.

To be brutally realistic. The only possible hope if you want to see the policies you are hoping for is a FG/FF coalition.

I disagree.

As it stand alot of the general public don't knwo about the FG reinvention plans.
I'll bet that if FG were to go door to door with that plan there would be people queing up to vote for them.

Their only realy competition is from Labour, and as pointed Labour don't seem to have any fresh thinking or solid plans for reform.

Liam Byrne

T runner wrote: »

I have a theory OP:

We all know there is no hope of a FG overall majority, so its not our best hope. The numbers wont add up.

The only numerical possibility for government with the policies you want is a FG/FF coalition.

Oh my good Jesus no! :mad: Are you hoping that FF can sign up with and then destroy every other party in the country ?

T runner

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Oh my good Jesus no! :mad: Are you hoping that FF can sign up with and then destroy every other party in the country ?

Why would you say that?

I am stating that the OP has no hope of seeing a FG overall majority and therefore FG policies and in cold numerical terms the only hope of seeinga government with mainly FG policies is by FF putting in its 25 or so seats into a coalition.

Therefore in realsitic terms the "best we can hope for" (or the OP can hope for) is a FG/FG coalition. Nothing else adds up.

I dont want to see that outcome.

meglome

senordingdong wrote: »

Their only realy competition is from Labour, and as pointed Labour don't seem to have any fresh thinking or solid plans for reform.

As was said above some of the individual Labour TD's are reasonably decent. But with their own vested interest groups like the Unions they are not even offering most of the change that is needed. It's a pity in many ways, and I have voted for them in the past but we are where are are now.

T runner wrote: »

Why would you say that?

I am stating that the OP has no hope of seeing a FG overall majority and therefore FG policies and in cold numerical terms the only hope of seeinga government with mainly FG policies is by FF putting in its 25 or so seats into a coalition.

Therefore in realsitic terms the "best we can hope for" (or the OP can hope for) is a FG/FG coalition. Nothing else adds up.

I dont want to see that outcome.

It will probably turn out to be FG/Labour coalition but the ideal (of the choices available) would be a FG overall majority. Still as long as FG have the bulk of the seats I can live with a FG/Labour coalition.

T runner

senordingdong wrote: »

I disagree.

As it stand alot of the general public don't knwo about the FG reinvention plans.
I'll bet that if FG were to go door to door with that plan there would be people queing up to vote for them.

Their only realy competition is from Labour, and as pointed Labour don't seem to have any fresh thinking or solid plans for reform.

Unfortunately a lot of them heard Enda make a balls of explaining his plans for disbanding the HSE on morning Ireland recently.

FG's best tactic is to push Noonan as the trump card in Finance.
They wont get an overall majority. Finishing ahead of labour and gaining leadership in a FG/Labour coalition is their realistic target and most likely outcome.