Dog whisperer's most aggressive breeds

daenerysstormborn3

I would call that training, not trickery, there is a difference.

Fluorescence

Discodog wrote: »

From what I have seen of Milan he treats the dog as an idiot. Anyone who has studied Wolf behaviour will know that it is very complex. Dogs have added a raft of abilities beyond those of a Wolf.

I got the complete opposite impression of him actually. He seems to say that the dogs are really intelligent, and that humans must learn to interact with them on a level that will keep them fulfilled both mentally and physically. He stresses that it's important to treat dogs with respect in order to gain theirs in return. Hardly seems like belittling them or treating them like idiots to me.

Discodog

I am not a trainer or a behaviourist but I do value the opinions of those that I respect. No one seems to get them more angry than Milan. He really divides opinion & I find that strange, given that most trainers agree on most things. I have never known a proper dog trainer to use a choke chain whereas CM seems to use nothing else. Dragging a dog around by it's neck is not my idea of respect.

Whispered

Discodog wrote: »

Dragging a dog around by it's neck is not my idea of respect.

Or using shock collars.

Bullseye1

I have never seen CM drag any dog around or threat the dog disrespectfully. Dogs are animals not children and that is how he threats them. He threats them like dogs but with respect. What i like about his program is that he knows about the breed and it's original history. There was on episode where he had a Rottweiler herding sheep. Or a mountain dog pulling a cart. He also employs his pack to socialize dogs which should have been socialized by it's owners. He basically gives the owner the tools to create the environment to maintain a balanced and happy dog.

Zapperzy

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I have never seen CM drag any dog around or threat the dog disrespectfully. Dogs are animals not children and that is how he threats them. He threats them like dogs but with respect. What i like about his program is that he knows about the breed and it's original history. There was on episode where he had a Rottweiler herding sheep. Or a mountain dog pulling a cart. He also employs his pack to socialize dogs which should have been socialized by it's owners. He basically gives the owner the tools to create the environment to maintain a balanced and happy dog.

Have you ever seen the episode where he drags a st bernard up and down the stairs just because the owners wanted to have the dog in their bedrooms. Not only was it harsh to drag a dog using a choke collar up and down a stairs but giant breeds shouldn't be encoaraged to be climbing stairs unnecessarily anyways, and from what I can remember I think it was a fairly young dog which is even worse for growing joints. I dread to think what state the dog's joints are in now just so that they could have the dog in their bedroom.

I agree with cesar to a certain extent, he says dogs should be treated with respect and an exercised dog is a happy dog, and as you say dogs shouldn't be treated like children but thats where my agreement ends, I do not agree with his outdated methods. If you watch some of his programs with the sound muted and just concentrate on the dog you will see that most of the dogs exhibit signs of stress and nervousness, ears are pinned back, they are licking their lips etc.


Anyway Im gone way off topic, just to add I met an elderly staffie the other day, lovely natured dog! Would love to adopt one (or two ) in the future.

Discodog

Bullseye1 wrote: »

What i like about his program is that he knows about the breed and it's original history.

Can't wait to see the episode on Bull baiting !. The history of a breed has little to do with it's behaviour. Sighthounds were bred to chase yet mine & many others don't. It is upbringing & the attitude of it's owners that determine temperament & behaviour.

What really pees me off is the name Dog Whisperer. Until now we have only had horse whisperers who work by invoking the natural herd instinct of a horse. They never physically intervene & certainly don't use choke chains.

ferretone

Not going to comment much on CM, as I don't even have the channels to watch him, but I will say that I am against the choke-chains and shock collars, and also the whole pack theory thing I have heard he advocates, although I don't actually know if he still does, from what you guys have been saying.

But on the other thrust of this thread, I do want to say that our Dobermann, Lola, whom we rescued as a pup, is a total sweetheart. She loves everybody, and is fantastic with children of all ages. (Not that I would ever leave any dog unsupervised with young children however.) Last year for example, we were at a barbecue at my parents' place; they have steps leading into the back of their house through the patio doors, and Lola was hanging out there, as she found you could pick up lotsa strokes as people went in and out. Well, there was an 18-month-old toddler who found her great to use as the stair-rail they had forgotten to install, all evening :P And she has always been a great hit with all the children of varying ages my mother-in-law has attending her much more rustic barbecues too, having great adventures with them all.

She wasn't raised with either children or cats, but the year after we got her, I was induced to take on a cat who had noone else to look after her (she had proved herself cat-safe with my mum's and sister's cats already - we've never challenged her irresponsibly). She was always so gentle and restrained, Siamsa has rarely even hissed at her. And this September I found a 4-week-old kitten in the bonnet of my car, and Lola and she have been firm friends from the start. They play together, Lola being very markedly the more gentle of the 2, as is of course appropriate, and the kitten very often curls up right on top of her. Sleeping always very contentedly, until Lola decides her ears need a wash, which she tolerates exactly as though it was her own mother doing it, lol!

However, I will not try to claim that all Dobermanns are saints, or that they are easy or straightforward dogs. I absolutely have heard from friends and acquaintances who have known Dobies who have, according to them, "unaccountably" and "suddenly" turned vicious. The fact is that not every kind of dog suits every kind of home or owner.

Dobermanns are indeed sensitive, and often misunderstood, dogs, who require understanding, sensitive owners. The fashion back in the '80s for putting these as yard guards, for example, was very definitely a bad idea. Not only does their very short, single coat make them entirely unsuitable to be outside in bad weather, but also, while they were bred for guarding, this was for personal guarding. They need to have a strong relationship with their owners, and to be treated very consistently. They do not handle confusion well.

Also, the propensity in the past, still there in the US and partially here, for chopping off bits of them (and I don't mean the reproductive ones!), has made it even harder for many owners (and other dogs, actually) to read their body language. Not that it can't be done - Lola's tail may be gone, but the short coat does make it very obvious when her hackles are up, and her ears, thankfully inviolate here, are extremely expressive. And of course other behaviour is as normal.

I'm just making the point that sometimes breed really should be important to a prospective dog-owner. Not that any particular breed is bad per-se but that some are more suitable to particular owners than others. Of course there are many more examples of this.

For example, many breeds, particularly collies and many terriers, really are better suited to owners who have breed-appropriate jobs for them to do. Lola has been attacked on walks in the past by nippy collies whose owners did not understand this. If you've got no sheep to herd, your collie really ought to be engaged in agility, obedience, flyball, tracking, cani-cross, heel-to-music or something, same applies to the terrier with no hunting, the spaniel, lab, setter or golden with no retrieving, husky with no pulling and so on.

Of course you do get a wide variation in temperament within breeds, but it does help to have an expectation of what you will need to do and deal with, whatever kind of dog you go for. And I don't know to what extent this is handled in the States, but I do observe that this often is not addressed in Ireland at all.

Bullseye1

I don't see the point in arguing with your strongly held beliefs but my point is that dogs act a certain way because it is in their nature to act that way through years of breeding. And where appropriate you can use that to create a happy dog.

I have no interest is seeing any of the blood sports you are anxious to see;)

Discodog wrote: »

Can't wait to see the episode on Bull baiting !. The history of a breed has little to do with it's behaviour. Sighthounds were bred to chase yet mine & many others don't. It is upbringing & the attitude of it's owners that determine temperament & behaviour.

What really pees me off is the name Dog Whisperer. Until now we have only had horse whisperers who work by invoking the natural herd instinct of a horse. They never physically intervene & certainly don't use choke chains.

seamus

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Personally because it seems to me that the whole basis of his methods seems to be trick the dog into being submissive then claim that the result is a well balanced dog. His methods are based completely on how the handler acts and don't actually train the dogs.

I don't think many people disagree with the core basis of what he does - that is, that if you are assertive, confident and relaxed around a dog, it will respond positively to you. I've never met anyone (or any dog) who can say that this isn't true.

The conflict comes in regards to the "mythology" he's built up around this and the various techniques and "tricks" he demonstrates on the programme. They all boil down to a variation on the above concept with some additional sprinkling on top.

It's not in his interests to give that single message because there'd be no more money in it, so he has to continue creating this whole story and mythology around his method(s).

One thing to remember about CM, particularly when you're watching the programme, is that it's effectively supernanny for dogs. You're watching serious cases of behavioural difficulty and you're only seeing a short, edited version of the full course of training that CM has done with the dogs. Attempting to imitate the methods on your otherwise mentally balanced dog can end up doing more damage because you're missing most of what CM did and only imitating the screen-worthy parts.

Bullseye1

Thats why he always says consult a professional. Is there an actual course in university or college to give people qualifications to give such advice?

borderlinemeath

Whispered wrote: »

A boxer x, shorter but wider than a boxer, same head and colourings. I had picked her up the night before, so this was our first proper walk. I can guarantee you it had nothing to do with her, she is the most docile dog I have ever laid my eyes on. In fact while the setter was attacking, she just kept looking at me, didn't even try to defend herself.

The dog then attacked her owner when he tried to pull her off. Owner had no control what so ever.

Sounds like a bad owner alright. Irish setters have been bred into two different "classes" as such - the show dogs, the long haired, long eared large dogs that you see parading around the show ring - and the smaller shorter haired field breed that needs to "work" ie run around fields chasing and setting game birds. In fact any small animals such as birds, cats etc are in danger with the field breed but other dogs are usually friend rather than foe.
Not knowing the situation - I would imagine the owner either mistreated the poor dog or kept it away from it's natural environment ie if it was a field dog then only leash walked and not allowed to exercise their natural instincts.

this is our field setter - just back from a walk but still in hunting mode and relaxing with her favourite toy.

pointing.JPG

favourite ball.JPG

Mr. Presentable

adser53 wrote: »

I do see your initial point but its my opinion that bad owners are the root of it. Yes a pb may do more damage in a full attack than a poodle, size and strength alone dictate that. However a pit is not simply more likely to attack than a poodle. And temprement, along with upbringing and socialisation are vital factors for any breed. I'm not saying there arent bad springer owners out there but proportionatly there are more bad owners of pits,rotties etc as they are an attractive breed for scumbags the world over who want to look hard and/or fight dogs. A pitbull is not born vicious, mistreatment causes that to manifest and in my own experience I've come across a lot more vicous small breeds than those on the restricted list. Do you mind me asking if you have any experience with pits or the like? Im not having a go or anything, i'm just curious as to the origins of your opinion

pH's point is one I have made before on here. The dogs are not necessarily more aggressive, but have the capacity to do more damage when an attack occurs. That's all. Forget all the other stuff about temperament, socialisation et al.

**Vai**

Discodog wrote: »

What really pees me off is the name Dog Whisperer. Until now we have only had horse whisperers who work by invoking the natural herd instinct of a horse. They never physically intervene & certainly don't use choke chains.

Have u ever seen a horse whisperer? Theres an episode where the original horse whisperer agrees with everything CM does. Its people like you who give the guy a bad name due to your ill informed nonsense. If CM was dragging dogs around choking them I certainly wouldnt want to have anything to do with him. In reality, he teaches to treat dogs with respect and most importantly, like dogs, not kids.

The only physical part of it is a quick pinch in the neck which is what both wolf and dog mothers do to discipline pups. If you read into it instead of spouting off your opinion might be worth sharing.

**Vai**

seamus wrote: »

One thing to remember about CM, particularly when you're watching the programme, is that it's effectively supernanny for dogs. You're watching serious cases of behavioural difficulty and you're only seeing a short, edited version of the full course of training that CM has done with the dogs. Attempting to imitate the methods on your otherwise mentally balanced dog can end up doing more damage because you're missing most of what CM did and only imitating the screen-worthy parts.

Totally agreed.

wolfpawnat

seamus wrote: »

I think boxers can look quite intimidating - their size, their speed, their look. Most boxers I've met when out, appear to be taking an aggressive or intimidating stance when they come over, but I've realised that this is just the breed.

Really?? I have never met one that is not friendly! But then again everyone thinks different things about different breeds. My friend has one, total idiot of a thing she is adorable.

When my OH did work exp for his vet degree in a place in Limerick, two scumbags came in with a Staffie called something like Killer or Tyson or something. They kept saying he was a "killa". The vet just tells them that they are not, that they are absolute pets and that he himself has two at home! While scratching the dogs ear and the dog loving it. Needless to say the scumbags were less than pleased!!!

Vets are sick of the Terror Breeds that are getting bad names for no real reason!

Discodog

**Vai** wrote: »

Have u ever seen a horse whisperer? Theres an episode where the original horse whisperer agrees with everything CM does. Its people like you who give the guy a bad name due to your ill informed nonsense. If CM was dragging dogs around choking them I certainly wouldnt want to have anything to do with him. In reality, he teaches to treat dogs with respect and most importantly, like dogs, not kids.

The only physical part of it is a quick pinch in the neck which is what both wolf and dog mothers do to discipline pups. If you read into it instead of spouting off your opinion might be worth sharing.

Yes I have not only met a horse whisperer but have spent some time with one. The problem is that there must be a huge number of ill informed trainers as many totally disagree with CM. Why ?. If the guy is so good surely, as dog lovers, we would all be agreeing. So many people & organisations including the American Humane Society have voiced concerns - why ?.

Highly regarded behaviourists like Dr Sophia Yin totally question the "old fashioned" idea of dominance training.

http://drsophiayin.com/dominance.php

Dr. Jennie Jamtgaard (an applied animal behavior consultant and behavior instructor at Colorado State University College of Veterinary Medicine),
Dr. Kathy Meyer (president of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) & Dr. John Ciribassi, past-president of the AVSAB are all critical of CM's methods & state that it can lead to dogs becoming aggressive.


So many ill informed people & they are just a snapshot - there are many more. You see I am not just spouting my opinion. I am basing it on lots of other opinions.

Zapperzy

**Vai** wrote: »

Have u ever seen a horse whisperer? Theres an episode where the original horse whisperer agrees with everything CM does. Its people like you who give the guy a bad name due to your ill informed nonsense. If CM was dragging dogs around choking them I certainly wouldnt want to have anything to do with him. In reality, he teaches to treat dogs with respect and most importantly, like dogs, not kids.

The only physical part of it is a quick pinch in the neck which is what both wolf and dog mothers do to discipline pups. If you read into it instead of spouting off your opinion might be worth sharing.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/dog-whisperer/3727/Photos#tab-Videos/06243_00 Watch this and tell me what part of this is 'dog whispering', now try and tell me he wasn't dragging the dog around and choking it. As I said in an earlier post in reply to someone, this is also very, very bad to be doing to a young giant breed's joints.

Bullseye1

Anyone who has rehabilitated fighting pit bulls and turned nervous owners into confident responsible dog owners deserves respect in my book.

The amount of dog lovers out there who have no idea anything about the breed other than they look lovely is astonishing.

Shanao

Zapperzy wrote: »

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/dog-whisperer/3727/Photos#tab-Videos/06243_00 Watch this and tell me what part of this is 'dog whispering', now try and tell me he wasn't dragging the dog around and choking it. As I said in an earlier post in reply to someone, this is also very, very bad to be doing to a young giant breed's joints.

Have never liked Milan but I hadn't seen this episode. Now, i truly despise the man. I would actually kick him out of my house if I saw him treating my dog like that, especially a giant breed. If he really knew as much as he claims to, he would have been telling the owners to leave the dog downstairs, not drag it up the stairs like that!! There's no telling how much damage has been done to that poor dog's joints by making it go and up down the stairs like that.

daenerysstormborn3

I don't think it's fair that people keep referencing that episode with the st bernard. The family called him because that's what they wanted help with. It's not like he charged in, grabbed the dog with a choke chain and dragged him up and down the stairs reefing the neck off him while the family cried abuse! The family want the dog upstairs, to be honest if they don't understand how damaging stairs are for giant breed dogs then they shouldn't have the dog, it's not CM's fault they want him upstairs, he was called in to sort out a problem which he did.

Whispered

Would you say the same about the episodes where he used a shock collar or a prong collar?

It's the job of a trainer to help owners understand what they may be doing wrong - not just to go ahead and do what they want regardless of what is best of the dog.

andreac

I have seen clips of CM practically choke a husky/mal to death, poor dog was literally half dead and another clip it showed him holding the control for a shock collar and would shock the black shepherd when he even looked twice at the cat in the household. But only for someone pointing out that he had it in his hand you would never know he was using it.... so after seeing those clips i have little time for him as a trainer if he has to resort to using those types of methods.

daenerysstormborn3

Any tool that is used by someone that works for their dog and that they use correctly and not as a replacement for proper one to one training, if it creates a positive response in the dog and ultimately ends in the tool no longer being needed, I don't see the problem with it. If the situation is a dog getting hit by a car versus a shock from a collar I know what I would choose.

Shock collars aren't to be used to hurt the dog, they're used as an "unpleasant" experience that the dog will learn to want to avoid, there are varying levels of intensity. As with all training, it should be done in steps, once a dog acts out you return to the last step they were compliant with and start from there, simple. Many people all over the world use similar collars in conjunction with pet perimeters to stop their dogs from straying.

andreac

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Any tool that is used by someone that works for their dog and that they use correctly and not as a replacement for proper one to one training, if it creates a positive response in the dog and ultimately ends in the tool no longer being needed, I don't see the problem with it. If the situation is a dog getting hit by a car versus a shock from a collar I know what I would choose.

Shock collars aren't to be used to hurt the dog, they're used as an "unpleasant" experience that the dog will learn to want to avoid, there are varying levels of intensity. As with all training, it should be done in steps, once a dog acts out you return to the last step they were compliant with and start from there, simple. Many people all over the world use similar collars in conjunction with pet perimeters to stop their dogs from straying.[/QUOTE]

And most responsible owners will properly fence an area for their dog and not have to "shock" their dog to stop them from escaping:rolleyes:

Whispered

Obviously the "tool" which the owners choose to use is not working if they need to call a "professional" in. As I said, the job of a trainer is to do what works best for the dog, and show the owner. Not to use lazy half assed methods which involve causing pain (even if the pain is called discomfort in the sales pitch). A good trainer, need never scare or dominate a dog, and any trainer/dog professional (ie vet, breeder, trainer, groomer) I know totally disagree with using pain as a training method.

I'm not talking about shock collars used as a perimeter fence (although I still think this is a lazy way out and shouldn't replace a proper fence/run), I'm talking about using them as a training method. Which is what he often does.

One episode involved an obviously very scared dog who's owner used a prong collar. Who in their right mind would think you should use a prong collar to "help" a nervous dog? I was shocked when millan continued to use it.

I have very mixed feelings on him as he speaks a lot of sense in his books, but the programme can be very hard to watch at times and people taking his word as gospel and using his dominating methods where not appropiate has likely ruined many human/dog relationships.

daenerysstormborn3

I'm sure his aim is not to encourage people to take his word as "gospel" and I don't think it's really his fault if people do take his word as gospel.

"And most responsible owners will properly fence an area for their dog and not have to "shock" their dog to stop them from escaping"

There are lots of industrious dogs out there who can easily find gaps or make gaps in proper fencing and I'm sure plenty of dog owners would rather the peace of mind of a dog not disappearing through said gaps.

I like his methods to an extent but I think the main thing that people need to do is stop treating dogs like babies.

Whispered

pixiebean22 wrote: »

people need to do is stop treating dogs like babies.

I agree whole heartedly, but on the other hand people need to give dogs more credit and stop treating them like dumb creatures who constantly need to be dominated and whose sole purpose in life is to usurp their "leader" and take over.

andreac

pixiebean22 wrote: »

I'm sure his aim is not to encourage people to take his word as "gospel" and I don't think it's really his fault if people do take his word as gospel.

"And most responsible owners will properly fence an area for their dog and not have to "shock" their dog to stop them from escaping"

There are lots of industrious dogs out there who can easily find gaps or make gaps in proper fencing and I'm sure plenty of dog owners would rather the peace of mind of a dog not disappearing through said gaps.

I like his methods to an extent but I think the main thing that people need to do is stop treating dogs like babies.

Sorry, but these fences are far from safe or secure, in fact they wouldnt be secure in any way as the dog can still escape as there really is nothing to stop it from getting out but a shock or a beep so how could it be piece of mind when there is nothing to actually keep him in?
Im not going into the whole radio/shock fences again as it has been discussed in length in another thread before, but proper fencing is far more reliable and safe than this type of fencing.

daenerysstormborn3

andreac wrote: »

Sorry, but these fences are far from safe or secure, in fact they wouldnt be secure in any way as the dog can still escape as there really is nothing to stop it from getting out but a shock or a beep so how could it be piece of mind when there is nothing to actually keep him in?
Im not going into the whole radio/shock fences again as it has been discussed in length in another thread before, but proper fencing is far more reliable and safe than this type of fencing.

Fair enough, that's your opinion, we'll agree to disagree.