Dog whisperer's most aggressive breeds

daenerysstormborn3

Whispered wrote: »

I agree whole heartedly, but on the other hand people need to give dogs more credit and stop treating them like dumb creatures who constantly need to be dominated and whose sole purpose in life is to usurp their "leader" and take over.

Agree with you 100%. There is a happy medium.

lrushe

I'm in two minds where it comes to CM. While I don't like some of the heavy handed and 'flooding' techniques he uses I do like that he makes owners get off their backsides and exercise their dogs as this alone can be a source of behavioural problems. I like that he brings dogs back to their roots ie. a German Shepherds herding, Beagles following a scent etc. I also like that he makes people treat their dogs as dogs not furry humans, I think dogs deserve more dignity than that.
At the end of the day I know what is best for my dogs so I pick and choose bits from alot of different dog trainers / behaviourist because what might work for one dog might not work for another.
When it comes to CM I like to employ the old saying "eat the meat and spit out the bones".

adser53

lrushe wrote: »

I'm in two minds where it comes to CM. While I don't like some of the heavy handed and 'flooding' techniques he uses I do like that he makes owners get off their backsides and exercise their dogs as this alone can be a source of behavioural problems. I like that he brings dogs back to their roots ie. a German Shepherds herding, Beagles following a scent etc. I also like that he makes people treat their dogs as dogs not furry humans, I think dogs deserve more dignity than that.
At the end of the day I know what is best for my dogs so I pick and choose bits from alot of different dog trainers / behaviourist because what might work for one dog might not work for another.
When it comes to CM I like to employ the old saying "eat the meat and spit out the bones".

My sentiments exactly!

Cherry Blossom

**Vai** wrote: »

Have u ever seen a horse whisperer? Theres an episode where the original horse whisperer agrees with everything CM does.

I've touched on this briefly in an earlier post, but I have to call you up on this. Pat Parelli is not 'the origional horse whisperer', his methods are also highly controversial and he is not well respected in the equine world. I know horses that have been Parelli trained and they are usually extremely bad-mannered, pushy and often verging on downright dangerous. This is coming from some one who has looked into his methods indepth. If you want a true example of natural horsemanship or so-called 'horse whispering' I suggest you look into Monty Roberts, Mark Rashid or Kelly Marks.

Discodog

lrushe wrote: »

At the end of the day I know what is best for my dogs so I pick and choose bits from alot of different dog trainers / behaviourist because what might work for one dog might not work for another.
When it comes to CM I like to employ the old saying "eat the meat and spit out the bones".

The problem is that millions of people watch CM & do take it as gospel. There is the "don't try this at home message" but many will ignore it. There is no counter argument in the programs. Maybe there should be an audio message pointing out that many experts disagree with these methods.

The "shows" suffer because celebrity & drama are considered more important than content. CM has become a guru who can earn a fortune. People do trust & believe him. There may be very rare circumstances when a professional might consider a shock collar but, if you show that on TV, lots of people will go out & buy one.

To me it kills the point of a training program if you have to say that you are using a choke chain, pronged collar, shock collar but the viewer shouldn't. If the guru has to revert to these methods then it suggests that they are the only way to train.

I would rather see programs covering how we can all train our dogs rather than a celebrity showing how good he is, or thinks he is. I also worry that every dog has to be suffering from some "condition" or psychological disorder. The vast majority of dogs are "normal". I wonder how many people misdiagnose their dog based on TV programs.

If an owner treats their dog like a child at least it will be warm, well fed & won't end up in the Pound.

seamus

Whispered wrote: »

I agree whole heartedly, but on the other hand people need to give dogs more credit and stop treating them like dumb creatures who constantly need to be dominated and whose sole purpose in life is to usurp their "leader" and take over.

To a certain extent, you need to deal with a dog in the same way that you would deal with a child.

When a child has a routine, rules, boundaries and adult attention, the child will be happy, calm, playful and affectionate.

If the child lives in a chaotic household where there are few boundaries, rule-breaking isn't punished and the routine is all over the place, then the child will be disruptive, difficult, nervous and aggressive.

Exact same for a dog. Like children, dogs don't want to be the leader. They want someone else to define the limits within which they can operate and to make the decisions for them. Life is much easier when someone else is doing all the work

Going back to the confidence point - it doesn't mean that they need to be slapped or shocked or choked - it simply means that you need to decisive and confident in your decisions and the dog will happily follow.

I do think people are slowly starting to realise that animals' brains (not just dogs) are far more powerful and complex than we ever could have imagined, and animals aren't just instinct-driven automatons. There's been a traditional (religious) attitude that the human brain is light years ahead of all other creatures in terms of capacity and ability, and that we are the only creature capable of emotion, logic, thought and intelligence, but we're slowly starting to realise that in fact we're only a rung or two up the ladder and most of what our brains can do, many animals can do too (and often better!).

Bullseye1

Discodog wrote: »

If an owner treats their dog like a child at least it will be warm, well fed & won't end up in the Pound.

The counter to that is that the will more than likely end up over weight due to over feeding and develop other underlying health problems. The dogs also have no dignity. Dressing a dog up like a child..... the mind boggles.

Discodog

Bullseye1 wrote: »

The counter to that is that the will more than likely end up over weight due to over feeding and develop other underlying health problems. The dogs also have no dignity. Dressing a dog up like a child..... the mind boggles.

If Ireland's animal welfare was on a par with other countries I would agree. The problem is that many Irish owners see their dog as a semi wild animal that can roam, fend for itself, & sleep in the snow. I bet plenty of those dogs would happily lose their dignity for a bit of love & care.

I can't stand the idea of dressing up dogs. A friend of mine has a grooming parlour & sells "clothing" but at least the dogs are being cared for. Rather than CM I would prefer to see more Panorama style programs that show the real intelligence of a dog. Martin Clune's programs were excellent because they got the message across, at peak time, to a big audience & in a fun way.

seamus

I'm not going to deny it: Our staff gets treated a little bit like a baby sometimes. My wife has bought a Santa costume for her, which (apparently) will be worn for a few minutes on Xmas day when we arrive down to the in-laws. It's not something which happens all the time
She also gets picked up and cuddled like a baby on the couch. And she appears to like it.

She has dietary problems, which is a mixed blessing because it means that she can never get fed anything except her regular meals and the odd rawhide chew. So our dog gets treated like a child to a certain extent, but I know that she would happily suffer through a few thousand cuddles on couch and a few silly costumes rather than go back to her previous life of pottering lonely around a cold & wet back garden with nothing to do.

There's no real black-and-white here. I don't think there's a major problem with treating dogs like children to a certain extent, the problems occur when the owner forgets that it is a dog, and not a child and forgets that the dog's social needs/expectations are subtely different but very important.

lrushe

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I suggest you look into Monty Roberts, Mark Rashid or Kelly Marks.

+1 on Monty Roberts, that man could take about paint drying and I'd sit there and listen, the skill that man has with horse I don't think can be taught, it's either in you or it's not.

lrushe

Discodog wrote: »

The problem is that millions of people watch CM & do take it as gospel. There is the "don't try this at home message" but many will ignore it. There is no counter argument in the programs. Maybe there should be an audio message pointing out that many experts disagree with these methods.

But anyone can pick up any trainers DVD or book and consider it gospel. I have Susan Garrett's weave pole training DVD, no where in it does it have an audio saying experts disagree with her methods, why, well because each 'expert' thinks their method is the correct one.

Discodog wrote: »

To me it kills the point of a training program if you have to say that you are using a choke chain, pronged collar, shock collar but the viewer shouldn't..

Each dogs is different, just because one method works on a dog on TV doesn't automatically mean it will work with another dog at home. Each case has to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Discodog wrote: »

If an owner treats their dog like a child at least it will be warm, well fed & won't end up in the Pound.

Dogs are not children though and it belittles them to treat them that way. There is alot more to making a dogs life happy than just food and warmth, their mental well being is just as important imo.

Just to clarify though I don't agree with all of CM's methods and I do realise some things can be taken out of context from his show but at the same time I don't think his is the monster people make him out to be, he has some valid points to make. Other 'experts' are human too and I think there maybe a case of the 'green eyed monster' in some (not all) of them.

**Vai**

Awful lot of what Ive now coined "the safety brigade" goes on in this forum. People who would rather pay to get their dog trained instead of doing it themselves, people who think if a dog bites it needs to be put down, people who think there are some problems that dogs cannot be trained to resolve, people who treat dogs like kids all the time.

Fair enough people have formed opinions on CM and due to the guy being on tv its always going to be a love or hate opinion. But that episode with the St Bernard was not cruel in any way. The dog was afraid, he helped it get over its fear, whys that so bad? I trained my dogs and continue to train them using CM school of thought and it works. Might not work for everyone but it does work. My dogs get exercise(physical and mental), discipline when they misbehave and when the times right they get affection. They never ever get dragged around by the collar or choked in any way, if I did that I wouldnt deserve to own a dog.

Shame threads on here always seem to turn into ridiculous arguments when it was a good intentioned thread at the beginning.

Cherry Blossom

lrushe wrote: »

+1 on Monty Roberts, that man could take about paint drying and I'd sit there and listen, the skill that man has with horse I don't think can be taught, it's either in you or it's not.

4 unbroken young thoroughbreds from the yard I used to work in were taken to a demonstration by him a few years ago, unfortunately they ended up not being used. I was so disappointed! It would have been great to see horses I know go through the process and to see how they differed when they were put through further training by us. I would have loved to have had the experience of following up his work, sadly it was not to be

Zapperzy

**Vai** wrote: »

Awful lot of what Ive now coined "the safety brigade" goes on in this forum. People who would rather pay to get their dog trained instead of doing it themselves, people who think if a dog bites it needs to be put down, people who think there are some problems that dogs cannot be trained to resolve, people who treat dogs like kids all the time.

Fair enough people have formed opinions on CM and due to the guy being on tv its always going to be a love or hate opinion. But that episode with the St Bernard was not cruel in any way. The dog was afraid, he helped it get over its fear, whys that so bad? I trained my dogs and continue to train them using CM school of thought and it works. Might not work for everyone but it does work. My dogs get exercise(physical and mental), discipline when they misbehave and when the times right they get affection. They never ever get dragged around by the collar or choked in any way, if I did that I wouldnt deserve to own a dog.

Shame threads on here always seem to turn into ridiculous arguments when it was a good intentioned thread at the beginning.

I don't see any of this 'safety brigade' here, I actually notice the very opposite, most people here are against sending their dogs away to be trained by someone else, if someone does recommend bringing a dog to a trainer the trainer does not train the dog for lazy owners they teach the owner how to train their own dog, I trained my own dog myself but then had to bring him to a trainer for an issue I could not resolve myself, how is this wrong? Noone is born a dog trainer and I don't see whats wrong in advicing a newbie dog owner to bring their dog to a trainer?

For your second point, if you search through the forum for some recent threads where dogs have bitten people you'l see very, very few people recommend putting a dog down unless as a very last resort, very few people here are quick to say put a dog down for a single biting incident where the events around the bite are unknown.

All dogs are individuals so I believe yes there probably are some individual dogs with problems that are very difficult or maybe impossible to train out of them, probably not very common but more so a case of people not having the knowledge to resolve such problems, and in such cases it would be advisable to contact a decent trainer to get their help.

Could you define treating dogs like kids all the time? Do you mean dressing them up, carrying them around in bags, not training them or indeed encoaraging bad behaviour because it's cute in a small dog such as a chihuahua? Then you will find nearly everyone here is against such things.

That episode with the st bernard was in my opinion cruel, your entitled to your opinion and I respect that.
Im just stating that a lot of the time CM does drag dogs around by the collar and choke them to get them to 'submit'. I agree with some of what he basis his training on, dogs do need routine, discipline, exercise (both physical and mental), the owner does need to be calm and confident and what I stated above as a dog being treated as a child is wrong but I just don't agree with how he goes about doing it. He floods the dog with whatever his issue is and then drags the dog around, chokes it, pinchs it, shocks it and rolls it over until the dog is exhausted and just mentally shuts down.

I don't think anyone is argueing here, were having a discussion/debate.

lrushe

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

4 unbroken young thoroughbreds from the yard I used to work in were taken to a demonstration by him a few years ago, unfortunately they ended up not being used. I was so disappointed! It would have been great to see horses I know go through the process and to see how they differed when they were put through further training by us. I would have loved to have had the experience of following up his work, sadly it was not to be

What a pity, he's getting on now too so it would be unlikely he would be doing as many demos as he used to, I would love to watch him work in the flesh!

**Vai**

Zapperzy wrote: »

He floods the dog with whatever his issue is and then drags the dog around, chokes it, pinchs it, shocks it and rolls it over until the dog is exhausted and just mentally shuts down.

Im not gonna explain the points I just made again and I really dont wanna bother getting into this with big long posts but I had to say that particular part of your post is the biggest load of ill informed bull**** Ive ever seen.

As for the safety brigade, they know who they are. 2 of them just thanked u for god sake.

Good luck.

seamus

OK **Vai**, no need to start getting personal. As said, this is a discussion, not an argument. I'd hate to have to move this to pre-mod

Edit: This obviously applies to everyone...

Whispered

**Vai** wrote: »

Awful lot of what Ive now coined "the safety brigade" goes on in this forum. People who would rather pay to get their dog trained instead of doing it themselves, people who think if a dog bites it needs to be put down, people who think there are some problems that dogs cannot be trained to resolve, people who treat dogs like kids all the time..

Are you suggesting that people who dislike millans methods for the most part are part of this brigade? I really don't see the relevance of stating that you think there is a "safety brigade" in the forum.

There was no mention of sending your dog off to be trained in this thread, 90% of people would say this is a bad idea when it comes up in the forum anyway.

Also there was no mention in the thread on dogs biting? Do you think that it's actively encouraged to have a dog pts for biting in this forum? From what I remember there have been a few heated debates on this and again 90% of people would say not to do it.

As for people who treat dogs like kids - that depends on what you consider treating dogs as kids. EG. my dad thinks I treat my dog like a child because he lives indoors, where as I wouldn't see it like that. What would you consider treating your dog as a child?

**Vai** wrote: »

But that episode with the St Bernard was not cruel in any way. The dog was afraid, he helped it get over its fear, whys that so bad? I trained my dogs and continue to train them using CM school of thought and it works. Might not work for everyone but it does work. My dogs get exercise(physical and mental), discipline when they misbehave and when the times right they get affection. They never ever get dragged around by the collar or choked in any way, if I did that I wouldnt deserve to own a dog.

It's either cruel to drag a dog around or it's not. What is your view on his use of shock and prong collars? Wouldn't you agree that most trainers would discourage the use of these?

**Vai** wrote: »

Shame threads on here always seem to turn into ridiculous arguments when it was a good intentioned thread at the beginning.

Who's arguing? I thought the thread was very interesting and civilised. Well it was anyway.....

Whispered

**Vai** wrote: »

As for the safety brigade, they know who they are. 2 of them just thanked u for god sake.
.

Are you suggesting that I would be on of those pushing to have a dog pts? Or that I would suggest or agree with sending your dog away for training?

How misinformed are you? Read the forum before you start talking crap like that. You will see how wrong you got that

**Vai**

seamus wrote: »

OK **Vai**, no need to start getting personal. As said, this is a discussion, not an argument. I'd hate to have to move this to pre-mod

Edit: This obviously applies to everyone...

No probs Seamus, Im gone after this post. Just wanted to see which one of them would have a canary first.

Cherry Blossom

**Vai** wrote: »

As for the safety brigade, they know who they are. 2 of them just thanked u for god sake.

Good luck.

It appears to me that this 'safety brigade' you speak of are just people who have voiced differing opinions to your own.

I'm certainly not one for babying animals, putting them to sleep for any reason other than extreme health problems, i.e. they are at the point where they not happy being a dog, horse or whatever it is they are. I work hounds and horses, I'm perfectly aware of what they are! I also put a lot of my own time and effort into making spoiled horses useful again so they have a purpose and are of use to someone so they don't end up as dog food. If this is what the safety brigade is I'm very happy to be a part of it, that's not the definition you have given it though!

Cherry Blossom

**Vai** wrote: »

No probs Seamus, Im gone after this post. Just wanted to see which one of them would have a canary first.

That's great, hand out insults and false acusations and then run :rolleyes:

Discodog

seamus wrote: »

My wife has bought a Santa costume for her, which (apparently) will be worn for a few minutes on Xmas day when we arrive down to the in-laws. It's not something which happens all the time

Does Shamus's wife post here ?. Fancy blaming the wife Seamus .

As for the "safety brigade" I have always trained my own dogs. I have an ex Coursing sighthound that I successfully trained not to chase - I didn't have to resort to shocking or choking.

As for the CM stairs episode a good trainer might of said that if the dog wants to come upstairs it will if not let it sleep downstairs.

I once came home with a terrified young greyhound who had a thousand fears. She is now the most confident dog that you could ever meet. Again nothing was ever forced on her.

My new pup was scared stiff the first time that he watched the other two being vacuumed - great way to get loose hair out. Now he loves it just as they do. You overcome fears & dislikes by encouragement, reassurance & reward, not by using a choke chain.

A friend's dog decided that their new lounge floor was scary - god knows why !. The CM method would be drag the dog onto the floor & show it that it will be OK. My friend simply fed the dog at the edge of the floor & then moved its bowl a little every day. Now it doesn't notice the floor.

Both methods work but one is much nicer & less traumatic. Just because something works it doesn't mean that it is the best way.

Discodog

**Vai** wrote: »

Fair enough people have formed opinions on CM and due to the guy being on tv its always going to be a love or hate opinion.

Why ?. There is no reason why a dog training program should be controversial or divide opinion. There have been lots of other trainers over the years. CM is just the latest fashion & maybe he deliberately courts controversy for publicity. We shouldn't have to be stressing the "good" things that he does & trying to balance them against the bad.

If a brain surgeon was controversial we would all avoid him like the plague. A lot of very learned people & some who's opinions I value, openly criticise CM & that is enough for me to have serious doubts.

Jinxi

Discodog wrote: »

As for the CM stairs episode a good trainer might of said that if the dog wants to come upstairs it will if not let it sleep downstairs.

...

My new pup was scared stiff the first time that he watched the other two being vacuumed - great way to get loose hair out. Now he loves it just as they do. You overcome fears & dislikes by encouragement, reassurance & reward, not by using a choke chain.

Firstly I agree that the family in question should have just kept their dog downstairs.
But
By your logic then maybe you shouldn't hoover the pup?
Maybe dog aggressive dogs should just be kept isolated.
And all dogs that bite should be kept away from humans.

On CM, I enjoy the programme, mostly. I think his mantra of exercise dicipline affection, is a good one. I think his ideas on being calm and assertive so your dogs feed off that is a good one.

I think the show is a TV SHOW that is set up to get ratings as are most TV shows. He deals with extreme cases in the shortest way possible. He leaves a family of a dog with reinforcement instruction. I love his pack and idea of dogs teaching other dogs.

As I am an itelligent human being, I don't swallow everything I see on TV as gospel. I pick and choose which tips and ideologies I use. I think choke chains are horrendous. I think if you need to use them or vibrate collars then you missed your window of training to correct the behaviour.(Shock collars are inhumane).

George83

I disagree with most of CM's methods (preferring Tamar Geller's The Loved Dog approach) but do agree that a lot of aggression in digs stems from training/lack of socialisation etc.

Over the years I've had many breeds of dog - Irish setters, Italian Spinones, great danes etc and have never had any real problems. Saying that I wouldn't go out of my way to buy a rottie (etc).

Discodog

Jinxi wrote: »

By your logic then maybe you shouldn't hoover the pup?
Maybe dog aggressive dogs should just be kept isolated.
And all dogs that bite should be kept away from humans.

Once the pup understood that being hoovered was pleasant he was fine & now treats it as a game. He wasn't forced or held.

Aggressive dogs are born of poor owners. I always liked the approach of the TV program Dog's Borstal in that the trainers started with the premise that it was the owners that needed the training.

If I wrote the law someone who's dog bit a person would have the choice of attending & paying for their retraining or the dog would be rehomed to a training rescue & the owner would pay all of the costs.

Dog Borstal used to do follow up visits. Does CM do this ?.

Jinxi

My point was that owners want their dogds to to lots of things that are initally against their normal behaviour. I didn't mean to suggest that you forced the pup to do anything. My dog didn't initally sit on command or stay or go to bed or pee outside. All of this behaviour modification was done at my request.
Does it matter if a tv shows does revisits? Its still a TV show.
I've seen some episodes Where CM does revisits, as I have seen him train the owners first as it is ALWAYS their mishandeling that have caused the behaviour.
The point is that if you want to train your dog don't just emmulate a tv show. Read, research, ask, go to classes and pick the ideologies you prefer. But sweepingly saying CM or any other person is CRUEL or ALL wrong is just untrue

Whispered

Jinxi wrote: »

Firstly I agree that the family in question should have just kept their dog downstairs.
But
By your logic then maybe you shouldn't hoover the pup?
Maybe dog aggressive dogs should just be kept isolated.
And all dogs that bite should be kept away from humans.

On CM, I enjoy the programme, mostly. I think his mantra of exercise dicipline affection, is a good one. I think his ideas on being calm and assertive so your dogs feed off that is a good one.

I think the show is a TV SHOW that is set up to get ratings as are most TV shows. He deals with extreme cases in the shortest way possible. He leaves a family of a dog with reinforcement instruction. I love his pack and idea of dogs teaching other dogs.

All very true, but I don't know if people are suggesting not dealing with problems, just doing it in a different way, so agressive dogs don't need to be kept seperate etc.

I used to enjoy the programme, and it's relatively recently that I noticed the things which I don't like at all, like the choke chains etc. I honestly don't know if that is to do with me learning more about dog behaviour and training, or if he's now under pressure to get amazing results due to his fame if you know what I mean. Has anybody else noticed that some of his methods have gotten more extreme (for want of a better word) or is it just that I've only noticed in the past while.

His pushing of exercise and discipline is important and needed for a happy dog.

I also love his pack idea - and I think it's great that he uses other dogs to teach dogs. He has also done a lot for bull breeds and their image. Daddy was fantastic.

I just think it's a shame that he undermines this with his use of dominance in almost every case, his use of flooding in almost every case, and his use of tools such as choke chains and inhumane collars. The fact that he has to have a disclaimer is worrying too and to me shows that there is something not quite safe about his methods. I wonder how many times he has been bitten.

Discodog

Jinxi wrote: »

But sweepingly saying CM or any other person is CRUEL or ALL wrong is just untrue

But surely nothing about a trainer should be wrong. There shouldn't be any doubts.

None of us are going to copy a TV show but plenty will. Many dog owners won't consider pro's & cons.