Dog whisperer's most aggressive breeds

Fluorescence

Whispered wrote: »

I used to enjoy the programme, and it's relatively recently that I noticed the things which I don't like at all, like the choke chains etc. I honestly don't know if that is to do with me learning more about dog behaviour and training, or if he's now under pressure to get amazing results due to his fame if you know what I mean. Has anybody else noticed that some of his methods have gotten more extreme (for want of a better word) or is it just that I've only noticed in the past while.

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I just think it's a shame that he undermines this with his use of dominance in almost every case, his use of flooding in almost every case, and his use of tools such as choke chains and inhumane collars. The fact that he has to have a disclaimer is worrying too and to me shows that there is something not quite safe about his methods. I wonder how many times he has been bitten.

Well the thing with the tv show is that it usually shows more extreme cases as it makes for better television. That's why (I imagine) he pulls out the big guns when dealing with those cases.

There have been a couple of dogs I saw him interact with that have been visibly terrified of him at the start, but as time wore on and he introduced them more and more to the source of their fears (while remaining calm and confident himself), they became normal, happy dogs. They even seem to warm to him a lot. [There's a particular episode that comes to mind - the one with the chihuahua El Diablo from the pit bull shelter, who Cesar renamed Sammy. When Milan first brought the dog home with him, he cowered under the table and was clearly distraught. By the end he was happy and playful with Milan.]

He doesn't seem to use choke chains or shock collars all that much though? From what I've seen, he tells the owners how to interact with the dogs, takes them for a walk, and generally treats the dogs as dogs not humans. Smiles all round.

EDIT: Regarding the disclaimer on the shows... I assume that's so people don't adopt his methods as gospel truth for all dogs in all cases. Each dog needs a different approach, so one well-intentioned owner trying something they saw on tv out on their dog might result in disaster.

lrushe

Discodog wrote: »

I always liked the approach of the TV program Dog's Borstal in that the trainers started with the premise that it was the owners that needed the trainingQUOTE]

It's funny that you should mention Dog Borstal cos I was was only watching a TV marathon for this on Saturday and I have to say I found some of the trainers v.abrupt when training. For example roaring at a misbehaving Rottie who was right beside the trainer, slamming bottles with pebbles in it on the ground beside a Beagle to stop it from sniffing on its way back to it owner (this was supposed to encourage recall???).
But again there were things I did like like getting the owners up at the crack of dawn to take care of their dogs first before themselves, stopping owners from babying their dogs too much and therefore encouraging bad behaviour, giving their dogs some obedience training etc.

Whispered wrote: »

The fact that he has to have a disclaimer is worrying too

I would think this is more to do with America's 'sue happy' mentality.

Whispered

fluorescence wrote: »

There's a particular episode that comes to mind - the one with the chihuahua El Diablo from the pit bull shelter, who Cesar renamed Sammy. When Milan first brought the dog home with him, he cowered under the table and was clearly distraught. By the end he was happy and playful with Milan

haha I can see this going round in circles to be honest for every "good" episode I'm sure someone can come up with one they feel is "bad" . Although I do remember the one you are talking about (vaguely).

There was one with a collie x who was very nervous, and even before millan came in the dog seemed harassed by the cameras, running through the house trying to hide on them. While this is in the nature of a tv show, (no show without footage), I thought it could have been handled better.

fluorescence wrote: »

He doesn't seem to use choke chains or shock collars all that much though?

In my view once is enough to undo a lot of the respect that I had for him. I don't think you should ever train using pain or fear. I understand this is just an opinion and as I am not a dog trainer I know I don't really have a leg to stand on when complaining about others methods. But anybody I know who is professionally involved in dogs would also say that.

lrushe wrote: »

It's funny that you should mention Dog Borstal cos I was was only watching a TV marathon for this on Saturday and I have to say I found some of the trainers v.abrupt when training.

Not really a fan of dog borstal myself. The fella in the black who acts like an army sargent drives me up the wall.

lrushe wrote: »

I would think this is more to do with America's 'sue happy' mentality.

This could be it. But I would imagine it has a bit to do with the fact he does leave himself open to being bitten a fair bit as well.

What is your opinion on him not doing medical checks on agressive dogs? (or not stating clearly that checks had been done). If someone comes into the forum saying their dog is agressive, people always recommend vet check first to ensure there is no physical pain. One episode of "me or the dog" had a large, agressive dog and the first thing she did was send it to the vets. It had a thyroid problem (iirc) which can cause agression and needed meds as well as training.

EDIT: Actually reading the last few posts; My problem could be as much with the show itself as with the man.

Cherry Blossom

fluorescence wrote: »

There have been a couple of dogs I saw him interact with that have been visibly terrified of him at the start, but as time wore on and he introduced them more and more to the source of their fears (while remaining calm and confident himself), they became normal, happy dogs. They even seem to warm to him a lot. [There's a particular episode that comes to mind - the one with the chihuahua El Diablo from the pit bull shelter, who Cesar renamed Sammy. When Milan first brought the dog home with him, he cowered under the table and was clearly distraught. By the end he was happy and playful with Milan.]

IIRC this is one of the episodes where he does the 'flooding', not sure if its the same dog or not On the El Diablo thing he goes over the small dog syndrome and they shouldn't be treated differently etc. then later on with scented lotions on the gloves he says obviously you wouldn't do this with a Rottweiler but with a small dog it's fine. I would have liked to have seen what he would do with it if it were a rottie and wonder why didn't he use the same method with the chihuahua instead of continuing to treat it differently because of it's size. As I didn't get this opportunity, I'm left to assume that a chihuahua with a shock collar on wouldn't have made good tv.

And yes I do actually watch it sometimes, so I'm not basing my opinion of him on assumptions of what I 'think' he does.

adser53

Y'see with Milan I find that all his shows are exceptional cases to begin with that require his controversial methods. Like I said already, I agree with some and disagree with others. Most of these extreme cases are solved using methods that are extreme for lesser problems. You don't use a shotgun to kill a fly, hence the disclaimer. There are probably thousands of DIY trainers imitating him around the world. He shouldn't use shock/choke collars in the first place but what's worse in my mind is the copycat at home shocking the balls off their dog for not giving the paw.
IMO, the dog whisperer is entertaining and shows cases that are out of the ordinary. That other show "Its me or the dog" with yer one Stillwell shows more run of the mill cases and uses positive reinforcement nearly all the time. what's peoples opinions on her?
I'd love to see a crossover episode where she takes a ferocious dog and tries her methods while CM takes a slightly, off balanced, run of the mill dog and what he does with it. The difference is she shows the owners what to do, leaves them to try it for a few weeks and then comes back to make sure it worked and they did their bit. CM comes for a day, sorts out a big problem and legs it.
ETA that I actually like Stillwell and the think the show and the methods are more relevant to 90% of dog owners with minor issues. But I still like CM and have great respect for the man and all the work he's done with fighting dogs and to improve the image of bull breeds

Jinxi

I supposed if you take the making a show thing out of it, and the extreme cases out of it, then I don't think CM is that bad.
i look at teh "how to train a puppy" episode he did, where he decide to bring up 3 diff pups, a pitbull Junior, a bulldog Mr. President and A Lab(?). I really enjoyed that episode. He talked about researchin gthe breed and using the positives of the breed to train and ow to reward and correct behaviour before it escalates.
Then I look at how good a dog Daddy was(RIP) and I think, when under his influence only, dogs turn out pretty well, so he can't be all bad.
Also someone said that nothing he does should be questionable. I have never met any trainer who I agreed with 100%. Some trainers talk about rewarding dogs waaaaay too much, so they only behave when you have food. It depends what you like personally I think

Cherry Blossom

adser53 wrote: »

That other show "Its me or the dog" with yer one Stillwell shows more run of the mill cases and uses positive reinforcement nearly all the time. what's peoples opinions on her?
I'd love to see a crossover episode where she takes a ferocious dog and tries her methods while CM takes a slightly, off balanced, run of the mill dog and what he does with it. The difference is she shows the owners what to do, leaves them to try it for a few weeks and then comes back to make sure it worked and they did their bit. CM comes for a day, sorts out a big problem and legs it.
ETA that I actually like Stillwell and the think the show and the methods are more relevant to 90% of dog owners with minor issues. But I still like CM and have great respect for the man and all the work he's done with fighting dogs and to improve the image of bull breeds

Completely agree with this, I like her too. I don't agree completely 100% with everything she does but I do find her show great for inspiration and generally come up with my own methods but roughly along the same lines.

ppink

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

IIRC this is one of the episodes where he does the 'flooding', not sure if its the same dog or not On the El Diablo thing he goes over the small dog syndrome and they shouldn't be treated differently etc. then later on with scented lotions on the gloves he says obviously you wouldn't do this with a Rottweiler but with a small dog it's fine. I would have liked to have seen what he would do with it if it were a rottie and wonder why didn't he use the same method with the chihuahua instead of continuing to treat it differently because of it's size. As I didn't get this opportunity, I'm left to assume that a chihuahua with a shock collar on wouldn't have made good tv.

And yes I do actually watch it sometimes, so I'm not basing my opinion of him on assumptions of what I 'think' he does.

just saw this episode recently and I think what he was referring to was that you obviously would not get on your hands and knees under a table with a nervous/agressive large dog.....thats the way I read it anyway.

Whispered

adser53 wrote: »

That other show "Its me or the dog" with yer one Stillwell shows more run of the mill cases and uses positive reinforcement nearly all the time. what's peoples opinions on her?
I'd love to see a crossover episode where she takes a ferocious dog and tries her methods

The one I mentioned about the large agressive fella was like that, but I can't for the life of me remember the breed so I can't really google it but I'll tell it as I remember it. Basically the dog was agressive with people who came into the house, she had bloods taken and they determined he had a thyroid (I think) problem and was put onto meds. She did say that at this stage he had learned the agressive behaviour and so still had to be retrained. First thing she did was put up a baby gate between the kitchen and living room for protection of the crew and visitors.

I get a bit hazy now but as far as I remember the dog was put into the kitchen while a guest was welcomed into the house. It gave the dog a chance to observe the guest from what he saw as a safe distance. Then when the dog was more relaxed he was brought out with a muzzle and lead and the guest was to offer food etc.

It was a slow process and no way as fast as millan shows but it was gentler and didn't cause any stress for the dog at all.

I tried to find it there but had no luck - I did find these however.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62UBo6gnzLM Dealing with a dalmation with some agression problems. (this is 25mins long)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA45uB2cTjY How Victoria Stilwell dealt with a client who uses a shock collar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha2iukEz2Sc Her views on "alpha rolls"

Fluorescence

I tried watching "It's me or the dog" once, but I just found Victoria so bland and personality-less that I couldn't pay attention to anything she was saying :P (it didn't help that she came across as condescendingly stuck-up). I have no problem with her methods (since I'm not really familiar with them at all), but it really is an awful tv show, or else I've a particularly short attention span. Probably the latter

Whispered

fluorescence wrote: »

I tried watching "It's me or the dog" once, but I just found Victoria so bland and personality-less that I couldn't pay attention to anything she was saying :P (it didn't help that she came across as condescendingly stuck-up). I have no problem with her methods (since I'm not really familiar with them at all), but it really is an awful tv show, or else I've a particularly short attention span. Probably the latter

I find her pretty annoying too actually but I do like her methods.

lrushe

Whispered wrote: »

The one I mentioned about the large agressive fella was like that, but I can't for the life of me remember the breed so I can't really google it but I'll tell it as I remember it.

I think that was Jed the American Bulldog (large white, mastiff-like dog?)

adser53

Whispered wrote: »

I find her pretty annoying too actually but I do like her methods.

Oh me too! She looks like she seriously needs to "get some" cos she's so up tight:D

lrushe

I (DTI) am conducting this study to measure breed related behaviour.

We currently have a list of restricted breeds in Ireland and these breeds are subjected to extra control measures (muzzling and on lead). So by the very nature of these controls and the fact that we have the llist it is therefore being presumed that restricted breeds pose more of a threat to the public. Otherwise we would not have such controls and measures as per the control of dogs act.This presumption was made without consultation or any reference to any studies hence I am trying to determine whether this is the case or not.

At DTI we have no breed restrictions as our clients know and respect. This is a simple study to measure behaviour and whether or not there is a correlation between breed and behaviour because if there is no correlation between breed and aggression for example then the current restrictions placed on our restricted breeds must be revisited.

So if you are interested in helping me with this investigation I would very much appreciate your participation.

http://www.box.net/shared/08k2eenlyj