The Future of Cork Webworks

gerobrien

Barcamp Cork IV took place in Webworks on Saturday. Excellent event - over 80 web developers, web designers and entrepreneurs gathered to discuss a wide range of topics covering content management systems, e-mail marketing, social media, search engine optimisation, business development, and more. There was a great buzz about the place and you definitely got the sense that Cork was a 'hub' for web publishing and digital media. Unfortunately, it only lasted a day!

Webworks is an Enterprise Ireland-supported centre; it's located on Eglington Street, near the City Hall. The official opening took place in July 2006. The press release talks of the importance of clusters, and claims that the centre "will play a key strategic role in the development of the Region" (see Minister Micheál Martin's press release). The slogan on the property brochure reads "Enterprise Ireland Webworks - The Future Begins Here".

If you visit Webworks today, you're struck by the number of empty offices. And then you notice the diverse nature of the few businesses that are there: landscape gardeners, a firm of architects, a property management company, and a firm of solicitors. An integrated circuit design company appears to be the only IT-related business. Webworks is not a digital hub; it's not a hub of any kind. Given the amount of public money that went into the project, it's starting to look like another example of public sector waste.

So, what can be done to rescue the project? How do we make Webworks work?

George Lee is presenting The Business on RTE Radio 1. On September 4th last, he did a feature on a hub for architects in Dublin. Basically, a group of 25 or so architects and related professionals approached the landlord of some vacant office space on Fumbally Street in Dublin. The landlord agreed to rent individual desk space for a modest fee. This is a win/win situation: the tenants get a centre that facilitates networking and collaboration, while the landlord is now receiving a substantial rental income from a space that was previously empty. At the time of writing, the podcast is available here (the feature is about 20 minutes in).

The Wall Street Journal picked up on the story and included it in a video, citing the Fumbally Exchange as an example of how enterprising Irish people are overcoming the present economic difficulties. At the time of writing, the video is available here (about 8 minutes in).



The key points from the Fumbally Exchange story are:

• It's important to focus on a particular sector (whether it's architects or web publishing). Only then can you offer the benefits of networking and collaboration.
• The involvement of a person or organisation with extensive contacts in that sector is essential. The landlord works with this person to recruit tenants.
• Now is a good time to do this: it's much easier to foster the development of a hub when property prices have collapsed and rents are low.

So, is anyone interested in trying to get Webworks back on track?

JohnDennehy

Ger - I'm delighted to hear that you got good use out of Webworks on Saturday and that many other internet professionals got a chance to see the building properly.

My company, hrlocker.com, is based in Webworks. We're very much an online business so I can confirm that there is some Web-based activity in here.

I agree with you that there's potential for more. I was on the phone to a client in Silicon Valley last night and I showed him the 360 tour of Webworks on its web site. He couldn't believe that a start up company could get an office of this standard.

We recently moved from a converted attic type space in an old Bakery on McCurtain. It's fantastic being in Webworks now.

We're going to be paying off the burden of over-development for a long, long time. We should at least make use of what we have an excess of now - great office space.

All of the staff I've dealt with in here have been superb and I'm sure would be delighted to have more Internet based companies in here. If anybody from Enterprise Ireland is reading this it would be great to hear your thoughts on how we could better use this fantastic building and start to create a hub of activity in Cork's city centre.

I'd be delighted to help in any way possible if anybody has any ideas about how we could get some momentum behind this.

John

W!zard

Hi John / Ger,

Great post and good to hear about the up-beat Barcamp Cork IV event.
I am in the Webworks Galway hub and sounds like both are quite alike! We have a few interesting Web2.0 / Social Media / eCommerce middleware / CMS folks here but it would be great to get more in both Cork / Galway.

If there is anything I can to do to help you guys out for Cork, just let me know as I will try get the Galway one going as well. We should try to link up both Webworks and see how we can all help &/or support each other out.

Tip of the hat to you all down in Webworks Cork!

JohnDennehy

I've just read through the Government's newly published 4 year plan and here's an interesting quote from the section "Supporting Indigenous Business":

The Government will investigate the potential for providing access to vacant or
under-utilised public property for entrepreneurs or business start-ups to use as
incubation centres.

NumbrCrunchr

Hi all

I am also in Webworks in Galway (must chase you down W!zard!) and would be interested in any collaboration between Cork and Galway to increase the presence of high tech companies.

Our state of the art building has 42 units but sadly only about half a dozen are in use.

Regards
NumbrCrunchr

lion_bar

I think having a mix of businesses in the webworks should be seen as an advantage. Most of these businesses will be the consumers of technology so there's an opportunity for instant market research, product feedback plus suggestions of real life business problems that technology companies can solve.

And "traditional companies" could help a technology company with it's problems e.g. an architect might help a gaming company with building perspective.

It would be a problem if there were technology companies trying to get in but as both have plenty of room that's obviously not an issue.

fishy21

How difficult is it to be excepted into webworks. Do you have to meet enterprise irelands high turnover cut off and export potential? The whole thing sounds very interesting.

@ john, a bit off topic but how is hrlocker going. Was EI your first source of funding?

W!zard

lion_bar -> A mix of businesses is a good idea for the webworks hubs and that type of sharing of knowledge, skills & networking is what I hope will be as well continue to grow with the two webworks. Might be a good idea to form a new online community space where we can share & connect with each other and grow enough interest to attract more like-minded start-ups towards the hubs.

Yes there is plenty of room and I would like to hear further from anyone setting up or looking to join the webworks hub if there is anything putting them off, etc. There is an amazing opportunity for both webworks to become the new beacons of digital hubs like in Dublin. We have the space, great offices, & low costs.

The gov should look at the webworks hubs alright John at getting more start-ups going with the space they need.

I know the building is big enough but I'm sure you would be able to find our sign-posts on the first floor NumbrCrunchr

Lets get some collaboration going with the Webworks hubs, who else is up for this?

W!zard

fishy21 wrote: »

How difficult is it to be excepted into webworks. Do you have to meet enterprise irelands high turnover cut off and export potential? The whole thing sounds very interesting.

I can only speak for the Galway one (not sure how it is for Cork but i guess it's the same), you would need to show or plan to do exports in order to be approved by EI. Be it technology &/or services.

If you go to the contact pages here:

Webworks Galway

Webworks Cork

You can email them and they will be very helpful in walking you through the process (painless enough) involved.

You do not need high-turn over or anything like that. If you need any help, just let me know with a pm.

Gerard Keohane

Hi Guys

With a view to a frank discussion of the Webworks:

The bottom line is that it is undeniably falling far short of it's original brief and ambition.

In my relatively limited experience with the Webworks it seems to me that the reason is the usual one - the landlord is just looking for too much money.

I don't mean to be simply negative: yes - BarcampCork was extremely positive and energetic. In fact I gave a talk myself as part of the timetable on Saturday. For anyone interested: http://prezi.com/g0fkvkid9l-n/conversion-rate-optimisation-in-google-website-optimizer/

But, seriously, the Webworks is really a disappointment. There's a reason the place is close to empty. The accommodation is superb, fully-serviced, the building is high-spec - but the prices are nuts.

I've been in business in Cork for over 4 years - I've worked out of 4 different offices, on the South Mall, Oliver Plunkett St. and the Grand Parade - moving up in size as the company grew. Each time I moved I looked into moving to the Webworks. It does, afterall, advertise itself as a 'life-cycle' space for tech related companies. We're a tech-related company, we'd really love to be in a hub of activity with like-minded fire-in-the-belly companies - but each time I checked I couldn't come near the cost of the Webworks. The rent on it's own is already quite high - but then there's service charges (if I remember well, close to 70% again the cost of the rent), rates (also really high as you'd expect for the quality of the building) and (I understand) parking charges. The meeting rooms cost more again to rent (although I believe they've always waived the fee).

To be honest - it felt like the same old story - "we'll try and extract as much as we can out of you".

Even in the 'good old days' the place was so expensive I couldn't understand why anybody at all rented there. In fact, I put the question to one Cork high-tech industry acquaintance who opined that it was used as a 'front office' for large companies who put most of their workforce out at the airport industrial park - that is almost certainly a scurrilous rumour with not a shred of truth to it - but it illustrates what people, even in 2007, were thinking about the place.

Now - it's fair enough to "charge on" if the building was 'private enterprise' - but when it was built with public money, supported by EI - and yet is still empty in an era of high activity in the area of tech startups and entrepreneurial enterprise - you really have to ask the question - "what's gone wrong?"

For my money - it's the money - you can't have a hub, a hive of startup or even post-startup and SME activity if very few can afford to rent space at that hub.

I'd love to see the place find it's feet - it's a damn shame to have such a facility with such a vision and mission statement flounder so badly.

(By the by - Barcamp Cork was by no means put on for free at the Webworks either, nor should it necessarily be - somebody's got to pay the bills - but there's a reason it took several generous sponsors to put Barcamp Cork on: http://www.barcampcork.com/sponsors/ - thanks to them all.)

So what to do?

Well, I hate to harp on about cost - but the place is expensive - not competitive by the standards of the city now or previously. (For example I think Hot-Desking in the Webworks costs 300 at present with no parking - 250 in Mahon NSC, I've heard 200 at the airport (could be wrong) etc - at present I think there's only one person hot-desking in the Webworks).

So - the space is empty anyway - why not try:

a) make the rent more competitive and attractive for companies who need to spend their budgets where it counts (on technology, getting to post-startup phase etc)

b) make the coworking spaces extremely attractive for freelancers (often the lifeblood of the startups...) and individuals

c) hold regular Open Coffee Morning, Ignite etc style events in the evenings and on weekends.

d) ask EI to put somebody in charge of drumming up activity, events, talks, conferences at the Webworks (I honestly don't know if somebody has that job already - but if not it seems like an obvious one)

e) if the last point is just going to add more cost again why not ask EI to share the task between a number of people on their payroll - or else see if a voluntary committee can be gathered together... a job shared is a job halved and all that - set up a site where people can put ideas together for the use of the space and advertise events etc

f) set up a hackerspace there - http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/


Basically - breathe some life into the place at all costs. I used to go there often last year to work with a company I knew there (no longer renting at the premises for reasons I think I've mentioned) and it was often so dead and empty I couldn't get over the reality compared with the potential. It's an amazing space - with great potential - and it's in Cork... seriously like...

Anyhow, my two (several) cents,


Ger

southernstar

We were based in Cork Webworks - got a deal in the first year and then they wanted close to €25,000 per annum for a four person office (a big one admittedly). We're in the category they're supposed to be interested in.

After that we got an office of the same size in Cork city centre for €6,000 per annum.

This year we took one the same size again in Dublin for about the same.

When we told the receptionist in Webworks we were leaving the attitude was " oh well...you cant afford it..."

Theyre living on a different planet in there - like lots of landlords denying reality. And the building is empty.

Its definitely not fulfilling its remit but no one is managing it. Howard Holdings used to be running it - then they fell apart - Interpol are currently looking for Greg Coughlan apparently. No one even knew what was going on with bills cos they were making people redundant. This year they were telling us we owed them 15k - theyre all over the place.

Anglo and another bank are running Howard Holdings and Webworks. An examinorship team moved into the top floor when we were there. The massive fees they're charging from a few tenants are covering the interest costs and thats all they care about.

This is why its empty.

Max001

Very interesting thread guys, thanks.

I'm involved with a social media start-up
and thinking about accommodation amongst
other things. Can anyone post or PM current
prices & Ts & Cs for office space in incubators
in Cork?

By hot desking (which I think would suit us
very well) I take it you mean a dedicated
'space' with a number of desks for general
use?

Cheers

gerobrien

Cork has a good selection of flexible 'pay per desk' options - I've been in most of them over the last few years. Expect to pay around 250 euros + VAT per desk per month.

National Software Centre - www.nsc-campus.com
The Rubicon Centre on the CIT campus - http://www.rubiconcentre.ie/
Regus at CityGate - www.regus.ie

I'm in Regus at the moment. Superb building, excellent service, and across the road from the NSC. Could be useful if you plan to expand internationally as they have offices in over 500 cities.

By the way, if you move in here, mention my name and I'll get a free iPod for the referral!

And what of Webworks? It should be the obvious choice for any web developer. They may be doing per-desk licences. Let us know if you get a quote from them.

Max001

Thanks for that Ger and yup, anything I discover that I think might be useful, I'll PM or post.
There's a few locations that might suit, including Webworks, but only if the cost level is right. I recall the PR / media splash when Webworks was launched and it staggers me that a few years later, its mostly empty.
I'll bite my tongue at this point

Max

gerobrien

I just came across an article about Webworks Galway from April of this year:

Webworks almost empty

According to the article, the building has 42 units. The Enterprise Ireland spokesman says:

"Currently we have three units occupied, but we are in very active negotiations with another business."

southernstar

Everything about Webworks is not geared for small businesses. For example - you have to pay them €300 per handset as you move in for each phone line.

Its a depressing place to work - its so empty. Part of the problem is also that the profile of the companies is so wrong. These are not web based businesses. Its like a who's who of the biggest companies in non-web industries: - Scott Tallon Walker, Wilson Architects - the biggest and most expensive architects, Brady Shipman Martin - no.1 landscape architects, Dillon Eustace - amongst the most expensive solicitors in Ireland. We wanted a nice office on the corner but were told we couldnt have it cos it was occupied by a property developer (it must have been innovative property!).

Whoever organised Webworks didn't care who moved in as long as they filled their overpriced offices. Most graduates of the Rubicon Centre looked at it and decided that the costs were mad. They were starting to do deals when we moved in. I know the CEO of a good, high tech company who had a hard-fought deal agreed and shook on, then at the last second the guy at Lisney (true to form in my experience) sprung 'service charges' on them - which are completely extortionate. These guys are employed to bring in programmers, entrepreneurs etc., in the hope that they'll cluster, sparking innovation in Cork and they've failed dismally at it. I'm actually delighted this thread has been started - this needs to be highlighted.

We were in the Rubicon Centre for a while and its better - some great companies there and a real sense of community. Its a bit pricey still though - as someone else was saying €250 per month for a hotdesk or about 12-14k a year for a 4 person office.

We're very happy now renting in city center locations. There are unbelievable deals out there - Nama is in the background and prices are in meltdown. You can now rent a whole office for not much more than the price of a hotdesk in one of these incubation centres.

aoidan

i am after spotting this on http://www.myhome.ie/commercial/brochure/cork-webworks-eglinton-street-cork/166801
Under the current climate ide say it will be a hard property to sell, but then again it will probably go for a fraction of what it originally cost to build. And where do the proceeds go to, probably back to nama.

With a lot of emphasis in the recent budget on small enterprise, this resource needs government intervention to sort it out. Or will all the public money and the site it stands on slip through the publics fingers at a time when this is needed most.

To me whole lot smells a bit like a cozy cartel, keeping the prices up the place empty, ready for someone to snap it up at a discount.

gerobrien

According to yesterday's Sunday Business Post, Ulster Bank has appointed a receiver over Workcast, the McNamara company that built Webworks Galway. The article says that Enterprise Ireland provided a grant of €4.4m, and that EI and Galway City Council are currently in talks with the receiver about the future of the project.

http://www.thepost.ie/story/ojmheykfid/

Gabbro

The best thing that Webworks did is hire Integris for facility management, as they did a great job throughout with excellent service. It is a nice building, nice parking, etc., and I thoroughly recommend Webworks Cork if you are talking to investors or having a lot of meetings with clients. But if cost is your deciding factor (as it should be if you are a young web startup) then Webworks simply does not add up. It is certainly far from the vision that Enterprise Ireland had in mind when they invested in it. Compare it to the Digital Hub in Dublin, in the Liberties, which is much more along the "old loft" style office space that small tech start-ups need.

Since the Webworks place has been running for 4 years now and is quite empty, I don't know why they don't drop the rents in order to start getting companies in the building and recoup some management costs through service fees.

Max001

Is it not the case that this place is publicly owned/managed? Suspect so, because the laws of business economics seem to have been suspended :rolleyes:
Mind you, compared to all the other state endorsed deceptions, thefts, frauds, incompetence, collusion a.k.a. tom foolery, japes, fiddles, paddy whackery and shennanigans, Web(not)Works is but a drop in the ocean, so on behalf of the management :P to you tax payers. 'If you're daft enough to take it, so will we' New slogan of the public sector

mikefm

Totally agree, it's a fantastic building with great facilities. The rates are crazy though especially these days

southernstar

Gabbro wrote: »

Since the Webworks place has been running for 4 years now and is quite empty, I don't know why they don't drop the rents in order to start getting companies in the building and recoup some management costs through service fees.

Thats exactly what they did- there was room for discussion with the rent but the management fees were not negotiable for some reason.

southernstar

aoidan wrote: »

i am after spotting this on http://www.myhome.ie/commercial/brochure/cork-webworks-eglinton-street-cork/166801

To me whole lot smells a bit like a cozy cartel, keeping the prices up the place empty, ready for someone to snap it up at a discount.

You could be onto something here

gerobrien

NumbrCrunchr wrote: »

Hi all

I am also in Webworks in Galway (must chase you down W!zard!) and would be interested in any collaboration between Cork and Galway to increase the presence of high tech companies.

Regardless of what happens with the two Webworks buildings, developing collaboration between Cork and Galway sounds like a good idea. Dublin is becoming a hub for web publishing and digital media: Facebook, Google, eBay, HostelWorld, The Digital Hub, The Dublin Web Summit, and maybe Twitter later this year. The thinking behind the two Webworks centres may have been to create a regional counterbalance to Dublin, which is a very worthwhile objective: web publishing has the potential to create significant employment in both cities.


The Open Coffee network is probabaly a good way to foster collaboration between Cork and Galway web companies. The Open Coffee Ireland group on LinkedIn is worth joining: it has over 1,300 members. And maybe the next BarCamp should be in Webworks Galway...

W!zard

I think that was/is the plan for the Webworks in both regions and fostering a counterbalance to Dublin, is a worthwhile objective for both cities. Within Webworks Galway we are pushing for a Digital Hub style environment for all tenants to interactive, share & explore business partnerships where possible to break through global barriers in different industries.

Gerobrien - I agree with you on the Open Coffee events and they do help as we have a few Galway Open Coffee gatherings here in Webworks but it would be good for other Open Coffee groups such as in Cork to come visit us here and we could do the same down for Cork.

southernstar

I was passing webworks today and couldn't help noticing this from outside. It was kind of hard not to - it takes over the whole lobby.

gerobrien

The election offers an opportunity to raise awareness of the Webworks situation. Would anyone be interested in forming a 'task force' for the duration of the election campaign? The objective is to get a commitment from an incoming TD to develop the centre properly. Between us, I think we have sufficient media contacts to make this happen.

southernstar

Best bet is to draw this thread to the attention of someone in Fine Gael. Simon Coveney springs to mind. You should get in touch with him Ger - he would have the contacts to publicise this if it warrants it.

This situation could be sorted out and the building made more available to small companies. Or it could be left to fester in a vacuum.

gerobrien

I received an e-mail from Deirdre Clune TD last week saying that she's very interested in the Webworks issue and she would like to discuss it further. Deirdre is the Fine Gael spokesperson on Innovation & Research.

This is a very positive development: the next government could get Webworks back on track in a matter of months.

gerobrien

Simon Coveney TD replied to my e-mail this week to say that he would like to meet up to discuss the future of the Webworks centres. Probably in a few weeks time, after the new government has settled in. Very good news.

gerobrien

From The Irish Examiner of Friday, March 4th:

Enterprise Ireland facilities aimed at IT firms left vacant
http://www.examiner.ie/archives/2011/0304/ireland/enterprise-ireland-facilities-aimed-at-it-firms-left-vacant-147190.html

This report is very helpful as it will certainly raise the profile of the Webworks issue. However, one key question has n't been asked: What were the valuations put on the sites that were transferred to the property developers, and what were the terms of those deals?