Unmarried Dad - right to choose school?

LegacyUser

My 10YO daughter will be starting secondary school in Sept 2012. I was privately educated and wish to send her to the same school, we registered her there a long time ago in the hope we'd have the means to send her when the time comes.

Her mother and I were never married and split almost nine years ago. We had a very difficult time for along time and ended up in court where I was awarded joint-guardianship and access etc. Her mother has decided she doesnt want her to go to the private school. It breaks my heart, my daughter would thrive there - there is so much more to the every day school life for her there than the public school round the corner.

I don't wish for a second to engage in a "private v public" or "men v women" debate with anyone here - I was just wondering if anyone could fill me in as to what legal options - if any - I may have here.

Many thanks...

Nevyn

You can try mediation or you can try and go back to the courts.

What are the reasons given for wanting to send her elsewhere if that school had been the plan?

LegacyUser

If I was to go back through the courts, how likely am I to be looked on favourably? Can anybody give me any precedent maybe from their own personal experience?

The reasons given are "She doesn't want to go there" and "It's too far"

She doesn't want to go because she's been made fear the place and "losing all her friends at home" and it's 20minutes away, serviced by a private bus - the same one I used to get!

Unfortunately, we're back at Square 1 like here - it's simply a case of this is my idea so therefore the answer's "No". But this is too important for my daughter's future, I know from experience the difference this can make in her life and I'd be letting her down if I didn't do all I can to give her the best chance in life - in this case: send her to the best school I can afford.

January

If you have joint guardianship and don't agree with the choice the mother is making then mediation would be the way to go.

Fittle

we registered her there a long time ago in the hope we'd have the means to send her when the time comes.

I'd also be interested to know what happened between the time you mention the above, when things might have been amicable and the time when

Her mother has decided she doesnt want her to go to the private school

??? Why did her mother 'decide' that without your input?

I think that as you have joint guardianship, you do have some say in what school your child goes to - did you get any further information when you were awarded joint guardianship, about what it entails, exactly?

Edit; sorry, did those quotes wrong, and not sure how to correct them!

LegacyUser

I'd also be interested to know what happened between the time you mention the above, when things might have been amicable and the time when

Why did her mother 'decide' that without your input?

Nothing happened really. I would guess she never intended to allow her go there. She "decided" this because that's pretty much what she always does. She might involve me in the occasional minor decision but this is mostly tokenistic - she's a very difficult person all things considered.

This is just something I feel so strongly about that I'm prepared to revisit those horrible old days that took us to a courtoom.

Chuchoter

Can you tell us your and your child's mother's reasoning for going to each school?

LegacyUser

crayolastereo wrote: »

Can you tell us your and your child's mother's reasoning for going to each school?

I've already said I didn't wish to get into a public-private debate. I realise millions of kids have received fantastic educations in public schools. But I know the difference my school made to me in life and I'm eternally grateful to my parents for sending me there. I'm just trying to give my daughter the best possible chance. Her mother is making this decision for her own reasons, to spite me - and not thinking of our daughter first.

silja

I would think you could go to the courts for a decision after mediation, but it may not go your way, it all depends on reasons...

Could one concern be that she does not have the means to pay her half of fees, uniform, school trips, supplies etc, which all tend to be more expensive in private schools? Would you be able to carry all (not just fees) expenses of the school if mom agreed to send the child to that school?

Is the school further away than the state school, and the child is living with mom most of the time, and thus mom would need to drive her to and from school which she may not be able to due to work etc?

LegacyUser

Are you paying for the private school?

It seems crazy that she would deny her child this opportunity just to spite you (not that I don't believe you!)

Have you spoken to your daughter about it?

My little sister didn't want to go to my mother's school of choice for the reason of losing her friends etc but my mam reassured her this would not happen and not only has she kept those friends but has made new ones too.

I'm not saying you should try and manipulate her into your way of thinking, but maybe just get an inclination of how she feels about it before going to mediation.

Although, that said, at 10 the prospect of secondary school can be very scary for a child so maybe not best to keep pressing the issue with her.

LegacyUser

silja wrote: »

I would think you could go to the courts for a decision after mediation, but it may not go your way, it all depends on reasons...

Could one concern be that she does not have the means to pay her half of fees, uniform, school trips, supplies etc, which all tend to be more expensive in private schools? Would you be able to carry all (not just fees) expenses of the school if mom agreed to send the child to that school?

Is the school further away than the state school, and the child is living with mom most of the time, and thus mom would need to drive her to and from school which she may not be able to due to work etc?

Well I'm sure she would have the means, but that's no issue, if necessary I'll cover all the fees. She doesn't work but the school is serviced by a private bus so that's no issue either.

It's difficult to explain and I'm aware there are two sides to every story - but there really is no reason at all for her not to send her other than the fact that would mean acceding to something that I have asked for.

implausible

Trying to do best for them wrote: »

I know the difference my school made to me in life and I'm eternally grateful to my parents for sending me there. I'm just trying to give my daughter the best possible chance.

Obviously, you want the best for your daughter, but you might be projecting a bit here. It making a difference to your life, does not guarantee it will make the same difference to hers. You, and your ex, are the most important factors in your daughter's education, not the school. Besides, your daughter and her ideas about the place may change in the next two years. It sounds like you're getting into conflict very prematurely.

silja wrote: »

Could one concern be that she does not have the means to pay her half of fees, uniform, school trips, supplies etc, which all tend to be more expensive in private schools? Would you be able to carry all (not just fees) expenses of the school if mom agreed to send the child to that school?

Good point, perhaps the money is a worry. Explaining that you would cover the costs might alleviate the tension.

Nevyn

If no one from your daughters class or school is going to be attending then that is a huge factor for a child.

K-9

Thaedydal wrote: »

If no one from your daughters class or school is going to be attending then that is a huge factor for a child.

That is an important point.

Really, IMO, I can't see how mediation is going to help much here. There isn't much compromising here, though it would be good to hear the reasons both parents have. The OP is obviously very passionate about the private school and his intentions seem honourable.

Really, if you went to court, you'd have to outline the reasons why you feel it is in the child's best interest and the mother the same, on her side. The judge would listen to both sides and see what is in the child's best interest.

Fittle

While I respect the fact that you don't want to get into a debate here OP, you are giving very little information and it's difficult to figure this one out, from an outsiders point of view.

You said she will have the means to cover half the costs.
And yet you also said that she doesn't work

It's very obvious that you have your childs best interests at heart, and your ex is a fool not to accept the best for your child, just to spite you. An absolute fool. However, if no one else from her school is going on to the private school, that could also be a factor here.

How does your daughter feel about this? Have you spoken to her about her secondary school yet?

spurious

Fittle wrote: »

How does your daughter feel about this?

This.

LegacyUser

Fittle wrote: »

You said she will have the means to cover half the costs.
And yet you also said that she doesn't work

It's very obvious that you have your childs best interests at heart, and your ex is a fool not to accept the best for your child, just to spite you. An absolute fool. However, if no one else from her school is going on to the private school, that could also be a factor here.

How does your daughter feel about this? Have you spoken to her about her secondary school yet?

She worked up until quite recently before being made redundant and I would be quite confident she could contribute half of the fees, however I'm willing to come up with the full amount if necessary.

At least one of her very good friends is going to the school - her father also went there I believe - and I would imagine there will be one or two more that she knows from the area who will go - after all, a full 22-seater bus goes there every day from the area.

If you were to ask my daughter today how she feels about going she would tell you she doesn't want to go because that is the seed that has been planted in her head. Again, I realise there are two sides to every story but this is simply a case of her mother going with her first instinct of saying 'No' to me and doing whatever necessary to ensure my wishes aren't granted - our daughter be damned.

The school in question, I feel, is such a fantastic environment for girls in particular - they have access to alot more extracurricular activities. In fairness, every school has football/GAA/rugby/basketball etc that most boys enjoy but I've always felt that girls in particular really got a leg up in my old school. My sister and niece are the perfect examples as well as friends who have gone there.

My daughter is 10, she doesn't know better, it's our responsibility to make this decision in here best interests. When I was 10 I didn't really mind what school I went to - sure, 90% of my primary schoolmates were going to 'Public School X' across the road but I knew 'Private School X' had a great basketball court and playing pitches as far as the eye could see! That's all it meant to me at 10 - but now, and from the day I left college and went looking for work, I can see the difference it made.

I also have still have every friend I ever had when I left 6th Class as well as the same number again from secondary school.

This is something I just have to do, I owe it to my daughter. She's been a good child, a model daughter, from the day she was born and she's very very bright - I just want her to have the chances I had. In 15 years, if she's not allowed go there, I can just see her asking her Mam "Why?" but by then it will be too late.

thesimpsons

do you or have you spend much time with your daughter over the years, does she see you as someone who does have her best interests at heart? Has this private school suddenly been sprung on her or did she always know that it was an option? If you do have a good relationship with her, try make her understand your reasons for wanting this school, maybe take her there for a visit and see the facilites on offer there. I know you really feel its right for her but she will have to see it that way too.

Different situation from yours but our youngest didn't want to go to secondary school her sister was already attending and voiced many times she didn't want to go there cos she was `afraid' of the language (a gaelcolaiste). However, after the open day and a chat with the principal she is now so looking forward to going there next Sept, and will know no one else going there either and this doesn't bother her in the least.

up for anything

Bite the bullet and decide now that you will shoulder all the costs and tell your ex that. However you might view your ex's finances from the outside, it may well be that they are very different. I'd imagine that education is going to take a hit over the next four years and the chance of going to a private school will give your daughter an edge. It also opens doors in later years as you have said. Most people do well out of public schools but they could do just as well out of a private school and maybe better in some ways.

As to her not knowing anyone, that really only helps during the first days of 1st year. After that most children generally drift away from primary school friends and make new ones.

LegacyUser

up for anything wrote: »

Bite the bullet and decide now that you will shoulder all the costs and tell your ex that. However you might view your ex's finances from the outside, it may well be that they are very different. I'd imagine that education is going to take a hit over the next four years and the chance of going to a private school will give your daughter an edge. It also opens doors in later years as you have said. Most people do well out of public schools but they could do just as well out of a private school and maybe better in some ways.

As to her not knowing anyone, that really only helps during the first days of 1st year. After that most children generally drift away from primary school friends and make new ones.

Exactly, this is the most ridiculous aspect of her Mother's objections. That she will lose current friends - completely absurd. She already knows I will shoulder all the fees. Your point about education taking a hit in the next few years is a good one - I hadn't even thought of that. In my mind, that only makes me more determined to try get her in somewhere where she'll have the best chance.

@thesimpsons: Yes, I've been involved since the day of her birth and we have, I believe, as good and loving a father-daughter relationship as any child from a "conventional" home. Kids never fail to amaze you and I've always admired how she takes every thing in her stride as she's gotten older and realised that most of her friends have parents who are older and live together, married etc.

Unfortunately she's at that impressionable age and just isn't been advised responsibly by her mother, there's no other way to say it.

Fittle

While I disagree with your last statement entirely, and say that it is your opinion that her mother is not advising her responsibly (I'm not sure that mothers actually 'advise' their 10year olds), you ex must have given you a reason why she doesn't want the child going to the private school.

Where is the private school in relation to where your daughter lives? Is it a longer bus journey? Where does the bus stop? Would the mother be the one getting the child to the bus everyday (I assume she would?), and can she get her there easily? She must have said to you 'Our daughter is not going to the private school because......?'

What is her reason?

And my last question is you say you registered her at the private school a long time ago. What has changed, when her mother obviously agreed to this registration? You say you had a difficult relationship with her in the past, but that things are ok now? So what has changed for her to change her mind about this pretty serious decision you both made?

I only ask all the above questions, because without hearing her side of the story, it's difficult to figure this one out. I would kill to have someone pay for my child to go to a private school - and I can't for the life of me, understand her reasoning at all.

LegacyUser

Fittle wrote: »

While I disagree with your last statement entirely, and say that it is your opinion that her mother is not advising her responsibly (I'm not sure that mothers actually 'advise' their 10year olds), you ex must have given you a reason why she doesn't want the child going to the private school.

Where is the private school in relation to where your daughter lives? Is it a longer bus journey? Where does the bus stop? Would the mother be the one getting the child to the bus everyday (I assume she would?), and can she get her there easily? She must have said to you 'Our daughter is not going to the private school because......?'

What is her reason?

I'm sure I've answered this earlier in the thread. She said simply "I don't want her to go... she doesn't want to go... it's too far"

The school is actually a few minutes closer to her than it was for me when I commuted. She could walk to the public school, yes, but the private school is a 20 minute bus journey.

You don't believe parents "advise" 10 year olds? Really? What is it they do then?

Fittle

Look, I'm not arguing with you. I'm just saying that she's not being 'advised' by her mother, not at 10. She's being told she's not going to that school, end of.

Nevyn

When children get older we let them have more say in certain decisions about thier lives, what secondary school would be one of them. I had several discussions with my son about this at first he disagreed with were we were thinking of sending him but over time he changed his mind.

Children can be influenced easily enough by the parent they have the most reguard for or the one with the most chance to influence them. So yes children can be advised.

LegacyUser

Fittle wrote: »

Look, I'm not arguing with you. I'm just saying that she's not being 'advised' by her mother, not at 10. She's being told she's not going to that school, end of.

Apologies, I took your original point up wrong... Strangest thing, we were doing homework last night (pesky fractions!) and she happened to mention that two girls from 6th class (she's in 5th) are attending the private school and that seemed to soften her against it. So, I left it at that, didn't want to push it. Hopefully it works out for what I believe is the best and she gets to go there and thrives the way I know she will.

Fittle

I don't believe that advised in the right word to use in the context of this thread though!

The ten year is being 'told' by her mother what school she has to go to!!

To advise someone is to suggest something to them, thereby ensuring that they still have the power to make the decision themselves. That's not what's happening here.

At 10, you don't advise your child what secondary school they are going to - you don't influence 'their' decision about a secondary school - you (the parent) make the decision yourself, after listening to the child's input.

You advise a 10yr to eat porridge for breakfast rather than co-co pops:D, but you don't advise them to go to the local public school rather than a private school that their dad will pay for:rolleyes:. You tell them.

Nevyn

Actaully I would tell my 10 year old she is having porriage not coco pops but I would not make the choice of schools that cut and dry. I think you are nit picking at the choice of language tbh.

Chuchoter

This is impossible to advise you on unless you give us both sides of the story.

The long trip in and out every day does make life very annoying. I live about the same distance from my school and it takes ages to get in and out every day, especially with school buses that often do not arrive until 2 hours later to accommodate sports/after school study. The other giant issue is that everyone in the school will most likely come from the surrounding area. My school has massive problems with it, because there is Town A where half the planet is from, and then everywhere else. It leads to a lot of bullying because you have bitchy girls not telling you about stuff because 'you weren't there' or 'you live too far away'. Location is very important. I assume ex-partner will be the person doing all the picking and dropping.

The other reason I can see here is maybe she doesn't want to pay the fees OR be taking money off you. Also, the school bus is a major expense.

astra2000

Hi op firstly I would advise you against going back to court as a way of trying to resolve this. You need to take into account how your daughter may percieve this, she could see it as been her fault, that she has to choose between mammy and daddy, or god only knows what else. It does sound as if you are closed off to the other schools completely I think you and her mother should each do some research on your school of choice and get together and compare. Most schools have lots of extracurrricular for girls now and you may be suprised, or equally she maybe. Have you considered that your ex maybe concerned that if your daughter was to attend a private school she may not be able to afford the extras. A lot of these children may have privledges that she cant afford for your daughter now she has been made redundant, she may not want her child to feel different. Also does your ex have other children if so this is the case maybe she would not want them to feel left out. You both sound like involved and caring parents and I believe that that is more valuable to your childs education than which school she attends. I think you need to credit your daughter with a mind of her own, I dont believe that 10yr olds know whats better for them than their parents but their opinion needs to be heard and not dismissed as been brainwashed. I hope this works out for you all:)

dlofnep

If you want to send her, then you should pay all of the fees. Why should the mother who was recently made redundant have to fork out fees for private schooling. Also - Have you asked how your daughter feels about this? She could have made alot of friends in school and might not want to leave them. School isn't only about education, it's a life lesson. Let your child have input in their own life.

Wolfe Tone

He already said he would be willing to pay for it all if that was necessary.