Unmarried Dad - right to choose school?

tatabubbly

As a person who didn't get the choice of what secondary school they wanted to go to (dad forced me to go to a certain second grade school) when i really wanted to go to another, makes me hate him a little. At least if you give her a choice, telling her that neither parent minds where she goes, at least she will feel in control.

LegacyUser

dlofnep wrote: »

If you want to send her, then you should pay all of the fees. Why should the mother who was recently made redundant have to fork out fees for private schooling. Also - Have you asked how your daughter feels about this? She could have made alot of friends in school and might not want to leave them. School isn't only about education, it's a life lesson. Let your child have input in their own life.

I would have thought the reasons for this weree obvious. For the same reason parents make an infinite number of sacrifices every single day for their children. Also, I have stated several times throughout this thread that I am willing to foot all the fees.

My daughter has indeed made lots of friends in primary school. And she'll make lots more in secondary school wherever she goes.

Again, my daughter will love this school if given the chance to - right now, she's not been given the chance to. An earlier poster used the phrase "brainwashed" - I have not used this phrase or one like it, but I believe her best interests are not being fairly looked after.

astra2000

Unfortunately she's at that impressionable age and just isn't been advised responsibly by her mother, there's no other way to say it.

If you were to ask my daughter today how she feels about going she would tell you she doesn't want to go because that is the seed that has been planted in her head. Again, I realise there are two sides to every story but this is simply a case of her mother going with her first instinct of saying 'No' to me and doing whatever necessary to ensure my wishes aren't granted - our daughter be damned.
.

These and other such comments led me to use the term brainwashing, my apologies I wasnt looking to cause offence.

LegacyUser

astra2000 wrote: »

These and other such comments led me to use the term brainwashing, my apologies I wasnt looking to cause offence.

None taken! Was just making the clarification... I appreciate everyone's input here - even those who aren't particularly on my side!

Big Bag of Chips

OP - it's not always that simple for people. Private school is so very much more expensive, than "free" state schools.. do you realise how expensive "free" schools are.. If the mother can't afford it, she can't afford it. Yes, you have stated many times on this thread that you are willing to pay all fees.. have you explicitly told the mother this.

Have you and the mother discussed it - or have you just told her. People don't take too kindly to being "told" something and usually become defensive.. as you are getting because you've been "told" she's not going!

Mediation may work.

I don't agree with the statement that for the first few days primary school friends are important but after that kids drift away to other friends. They may make new friends - but if the primary school friends are the "best" friends from primary, then they generally don't drift away from them! So where her "best" friends may be going will be a huge factor for a 10/11/12 year old child!

If you are willing to pay all costs, and the mother cannot come up with a very good and valid reason not to send her there, then you can bring her to court and a judge may well agree with you.. if it means that much to you, then I would try mediation first and court second.

Good luck, OP.

rolly1

Hi,

would agree with all posters that you should directly agree right now with the mother to pay all fees up front. You want your daughter to go to this school, the mother doesn't. It doesn't particularly matter the reason why. I would be against having to jointly cough up, if I believed the local free public school would be perfectly good for my daughter. It's unlikely to stand up in a court.

I would also talk openly about it with my daughter and very much respect her opinion as valid. From a parents viewpoint it may not be correct or what you believe is best for her, but it is still valid. She will also respect you a lot more if you respect her right to have an opinion on it. In these kind of conflicts it is always critical to ensure the quality of your relationship with your daughter is not damaged. Listen to her.It's a difficult tightrope to walk, but well worth it in the long run. It is also worth remembering not to make a huge deal out of this in your daughters mind and emphasise that there is much more to her life than school, it's not the end all and be all of everything.

I would also request mediation with the mother of your child on this issue. People generally dont realise it, but an attempt at mediation or some sort of alternative dispute resolution is required prior to all court applications. A framework towards resolution may be to agree on the schools you both wish your daughter to go to; then both agree to go to the open days of the schools with your daughter next year. After the schools have been visited then agree to attend mediation again to see whether it can be resolved there.

An enrollment in the school is not legal unless it is signed by both guardians, although a lot of schools mistakenly accept only one signature. You will need the mother's signature on the enrollment form, or a court order overiding her written consent for the school.

Good Luck
R

metrovelvet

rolly1 wrote: »

Hi,



, but an attempt at mediation or some sort of alternative dispute resolution is required prior to all court applications.


R

Is this a new law? When did that come in?

How do you do that if one of the parents refuses to go to mediation?

Sleepy

At 13 I moved to a different city when I was mid-way through second year. The move involved having to go back a year (aganst my will) and to start in a school my Mum chose for me (my choices were completely ignored).

It was a very good thing that they were, I was picking a school because there were girls there and no uniform, my mother chose the other school because it had a good academic record. I didn't like the place much but the education I got there carried me through a good leaving cert and, in some areas, carried me through a couple of years of college.

rolly1

An attempt at alternative dispute resolution must be explored prior to court application. It could consist of a solicitor asking a client whether they have looked at mediation/counselling/direct negotiation.This has always been in law but is nearly always ignored, not widely publicised or treated as a "box-ticking" exercise. I'll dig out the legislation tommorow.

metrovelvet

rolly1 wrote: »

An attempt at alternative dispute resolution must be explored prior to court application. It could consist of a solicitor asking a client whether they have looked at mediation/counselling/direct negotiation.This has always been in law but is nearly always ignored, not widely publicised or treated as a "box-ticking" exercise. I'll dig out the legislation tommorow.

I understood it was frowned upon by the Dublin Family Courts [I dont think the rest of the country courts give a crap tbh] but not required.

Also- what if one of the parties consistently refuses counselling or mediation, you are kind of forced into a corner.

LegacyUser

Sleepy wrote: »

At 13 I moved to a different city when I was mid-way through second year. The move involved having to go back a year (aganst my will) and to start in a school my Mum chose for me (my choices were completely ignored).

It was a very good thing that they were, I was picking a school because there were girls there and no uniform, my mother chose the other school because it had a good academic record. I didn't like the place much but the education I got there carried me through a good leaving cert and, in some areas, carried me through a couple of years of college.

Yeah, that's kinda my point. I mentioned earlier that when I was 11/12 & this decision was being made, I had the choice between the exact same two schools as my daughter does now. I wasn't pushed but if the decision had've been left up to me I'm certain I would have taken the easy option and chose the local public school where almost everyone else was going... Thanks God the decision wasn't left up to me.

thesimpsons

when do you have to make final decision for your girl ? - as she is now only in 5th class I'm guessing you have another while yet and girls do grow up and mature alot at 11/12yrs and start leaving `best friends' behind as they start to develop their personality more. alot of times in primary kids have friends who have happened to be with them since jnr infants whereas in secondary they move on and choose friends for themselves. I've 3 kids and numerous nephews/nieces who moved away from their "best friends" of primary school when they hit secondary. Some do obviously keep the same friends for life but generally most people I know their friends come from secondary age. Its hard choosing secondary schools weighing in all the factors. The kids also need to have an input and be happy too. Best of luck

Tim Robbins

Sounds like your ten year old is in a similar situation to one I was in growing up. My parents split up - Dad wanted me to go the same private school he went to; Mum didn't want me going to that school probably because I turn out like him.

My Mum won and I went to the local community school :-) Had a good time there, got good results, but unlike my Dad I'll be doing whatever I can to ensure none of my children go there!

Nevyn

The money matters may not stop with the fees, private school uniforms tend to cost a lot more and the same with the books and then there are all the extras, be it for sports after school or where ever else crops up during the year and then keeping up with more well to do kids who are then in her social cirlce both in terms of trips to place and clothes ect.

Will you be able to cover those costs as well as the base fees?

Tim Robbins

Thaedydal wrote: »

The money matters may not stop with the fees, private school uniforms tend to cost a lot more and the same with the books and then there are all the extras, be it for sports after school or where ever else crops up during the year and then keeping up with more well to do kids who are then in her social cirlce both in terms of trips to place and clothes ect.

Will you be able to cover those costs as well as the base fees?

The school tours also tend to be to India rather than Newgrange. When my Dad went to a private school he was never able to go on any of the school tours and he affected him. It would have been the same if I went, and it's one reason why I am glad I didn't.

metrovelvet

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The school tours also tend to be to India rather than Newgrange. When my Dad went to a private school he was never able to go on any of the school tours and he affected him. It would have been the same if I went, and it's one reason why I am glad I didn't.

My cousins went to one of those southside hard to get into need to know somebody schools and they had those kinds of trips, like trips to Greece to supplement your classical studies and it was great their parents could afford to do these things.

It was also great their mother had a bmw to pull up at the school gate in and didnt have to be embarrassed by driving up in a 1990 fiat punto or worry about her kids having to compete for status.

I can understand why someone would feel uncomfortable about this but ultiamtely you have to look at the big picture and what is the best education for the child, which imo also includes not just entry into college, but emotional and spiritual [which does not mean religious] development.

LegacyUser

Just to clarify, as regards fees plus uniforms, school trips, incidentals etc - thankfully I'm fortunate enough in life and work that I should be able to cover these.

I don't see it as negative in any way that school tours will be to "India not Newgrange" (nice soundbite! ) - I want my daughter to see as much of the world as she can.

I also don't intend to get caught up competing with other parents - social climbing has never interested me.

Chuchoter

You might not be worried about impressing people but she will. I hated goign in with my Dads crap carAlso, 7/8 years time we will most likely have college fees. Keep that in mind when you are going in to spend 4 or 5k a year on secondary.

Wolfe Tone

It seems to me that the father is willing to provide, within reason, a blank check towards his child's education.
It sounds to me like the mother is simply being stubborn about the whole thing and simply wants her own way regardless.

Nevyn

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

It seems to me that the father is willing to provide, within reason, a blank check towards his child's education.
It sounds to me like the mother is simply being stubborn about the whole thing and simply wants her own way regardless.

It does seem that way but what if the circumstances change?
If there isn't enough trust between the parents then it can be a hard to arrange as one may feel the other will use the paying of the fees to gain the upper hand when it comes to other arrangements.

Getting a kid settled in a school and happy there is hard enough and once a child has started school most parents will not want that disrupted and the idea that there would be disruption leading to all sorts of emotional fall out which the custodial parent will bear the brunt of could be used as leverage.

I am not suggesting that you'd do such a thing 'Trying to do the best...' but if your co parent has those worries and fears it could be part of what is going on. Maybe she does't want the worry of the fees and sundries being paid or having to remind you about it. If this is the case maybe talk to her about setting up a trust fund for this.

metrovelvet

And to play devils advocate she may be afraid that you will foregoand exempt yourself from other unforeseeable expenses like orthodontics just as an example, on the basis you are paying a lot of money for private education.

Bucklesman

I was in this exact situation when my parents were trying to choose which school I went to. They were divorced and actually wouldn't talk to each other at all.

My dad wanted me to go to his old private school. My mam wasn't all that enthusiastic about me having to go into the City Centre every day when there was a secondary school ten minute's walk away.

I chose the local school, and thankfully my dad was happy enough to accept that it was what I wanted and not something I was being told to do to get at him".

Tim Robbins

metrovelvet wrote: »

I can understand why someone would feel uncomfortable about this but ultiamtely you have to look at the big picture and what is the best education for the child, which imo also includes not just entry into college, but emotional and spiritual [which does not mean religious] development.

Yeah fair enough. But let's not derail this into a private school debate as requested by the OP. We can do that in humanities.

implausible

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Dad wanted me to go the same private school he went to; Mum didn't want me going to that school probably because I turn out like him.

This occurred to me when I initially read this thread, but it's hard to express for fear of offending you, OP. Could this be the real reason? Is she afraid that the values of this school will change your daughter? Or perhaps she's insecure that attending the same school will create an exclusive bond between you two. If so, you need to reassure her that your motives for sending her there are selfless and purely for your daughter's educational benefit.

planetX

I'm going to be in similar shoes to the mother here - except not involving a private school. My ex doesn't like the local school, and I don't like the idea of my son travelling for an hour to get to a different school. We will probably end up in court over it.
I think that by 12 the child is old enough to be listened to, though my ex is like the OP and claims that I exert mind control. Ultimately if all of a childs friends are going to one school, and there isn't anything wrong with that school, it's a no-brainer.
Have to say, if I was in the position of the OPs ex I would be very reluctant to be in a situation where he was holding all the purse-strings. There's a lot of control if you're the one with all the cash, she'll end up with no say over anything at school. As others have said, it's not just fees, there are a huge amount of expensive extras. The OP will be able to make all the decisions over what he will and won't pay for.

LegacyUser

planetX wrote: »

I'm going to be in similar shoes to the mother here - except not involving a private school. My ex doesn't like the local school, and I don't like the idea of my son travelling for an hour to get to a different school. We will probably end up in court over it.
I think that by 12 the child is old enough to be listened to, though my ex is like the OP and claims that I exert mind control. Ultimately if all of a childs friends are going to one school, and there isn't anything wrong with that school, it's a no-brainer.
Have to say, if I was in the position of the OPs ex I would be very reluctant to be in a situation where he was holding all the purse-strings. There's a lot of control if you're the one with all the cash, she'll end up with no say over anything at school. As others have said, it's not just fees, there are a huge amount of expensive extras. The OP will be able to make all the decisions over what he will and won't pay for.

Well I guess that's a difference between you & I. I'm doing this for my daughter - not myself. I find ur claims quite hilarious really - if my thread was entitled "Why should I have to pay towards child's schooling" I can imagine the stanch you might take.

planetX

Trying to do the best... wrote: »

Well I guess that's a difference between you & I. I'm doing this for my daughter - not myself. I find ur claims quite hilarious really - if my thread was entitled "Why should I have to pay towards child's schooling" I can imagine the stanch you might take.

Don't be so ridiculous. Did it ever occur to you that she may truly believe that the other school is the best choice? Not everyone gets on well in private schools. The closest school is often a good choice as it means that friends all live close by. What makes you right and her wrong? And what gives you the high moral ground that you are doing it for your daughter, while assuming that she is not doing the same? Maybe she believes strongly that she is doing the best for her daughter.
All you can do is offer and put your views across. Maybe after reading here what some of her fears may be, especially about money and the control it gives, you will be able to allay them. But if your daughter decides against your school I think you'll have to accept it.

LegacyUser

planetX wrote: »

Don't be so ridiculous. Did it ever occur to you that she may truly believe that the other school is the best choice? Not everyone gets on well in private schools. The closest school is often a good choice as it means that friends all live close by. What makes you right and her wrong? And what gives you the high moral ground that you are doing it for your daughter, while assuming that she is not doing the same? Maybe she believes strongly that she is doing the best for her daughter.
All you can do is offer and put your views across. Maybe after reading here what some of her fears may be, especially about money and the control it gives, you will be able to allay them. But if your daughter decides against your school I think you'll have to accept it.

If you reread my very first post you'll see I acknowledged that thousands of people have had fantastic educations in public school.

Could you please point out exactly where the "moral high ground" is in this instance? I am posting anonymously on an internet forum and receiving feedback from people I don't know, most of whom are very helpful - some of whom reply with a chip on their shoulder pushing an agenda that I'm sure I can safely assume they rarely veer from (I haven't frequented the Parenting forum before this thread). So where exactly may I bask in said moral high ground??

You seem to suggest I have not got the right to come to a conclusion about the behaviour/motives of a person I have known for 15 years yet you feel you are perfectly within your rights to do same (considering you don't know me or anybody involved in this situation) is pretty laughable.

Also, to suggest you feel it is perfectly fine to deny a child something that can change her life for the better because of the paranoid assumption you would be relinquishing some kind of power of one-upmanship... Well, that doesn't even deserve discussion - it's pathetic.

I love my daughter, I'd do anything in this world for her and she deserves to be given every chance in life and I'll endevour to help do that as long as I have breath in my body.

Splendour

Hey OP,

When my son started secondary school, my ex didn't consult me at all about what school he would be attending. Last year my son changed school (transition year mandatory at school he was in and he wanted to skip it) and it wasn't until two weeks before school term began that I knew of the change of school. In fact my ex never consults me on anything that's going on in my son's life but sometimes you've just got to let certain things go...
Why not open a college fund for your daughter instead thus giving her a perfect opportunity to continue her education when she leaves school.

PopUp

OP, I don't think posters here have an anti-private school "agenda" so much as they're trying to help you see that your ex's objections could well be reasonable and not just purely to spite you.

I'm pretty sure that if it were your ex posting here, posters would be endeavouring to point out all the benefits your daughter could get from the private school and encouraging her to try to see things from your perspective.

From the sounds of things, you are both predisposed to see the worst in each other. That's not good for either of you and it's REALLY bad for your daughter. You need to talk about this reasonably, and accept that there are valid reasons on both sides of the argument for your daughter to go to the private school or the local school.

If you actually listen and try to assume the best about each other (ie, that you're trying to work out what's best for your daughter, not screw each other over), you might have a chance of one of you being persuaded. But if you approach this where she's just totally unreasonable and hates you and can't possibly have good reasons for what she's saying, you won't get anywhere. And your daughter won't thank you for it.