Is this acceptable behaviour

littlemis

Is it acceptable for a resource teacher to make a child who suffers with Borderline General Learning Disability,and no confidence,do 20 jumping jacks????? The boy is 11 and was distracted by a classmate making faces,lost his concentration,and was looking around the room at the board for clues to the answer...His teacher told him off and sent him outside into the yard to do 20 jumping jacks.baring in mind the child is an asthmatic and it is winter, and the teacher knows this....????

veruca salt

Eeek, that sounds quite bizarre, go talk to the teacher tomorrow I would suggest.

pooch90

Sometimes with boys that are easily distracted it can actually help to send them off to let off steam, then bring them back and they'll be more focused. Make sure this wasn't the case before you lose the head.
The winter thing, they'll be out playing in the same weather so don't really get the major issue.

amz5

20 jumping jacks doesn't sound like a punishment. Educational Psychologists often recommend a gross motor activity at regular intervals for children with concentration difficulties. Children that have asthma need to exercise too - 20 jumping jacks doesn't sound anything like excessive from that perspective! Unless you have requested that he stay inside because he is sick, I presume that he goes outside at break-time everyday. In fact, many Educational Psychologists recommend a trampette (mini trampoline) for children with concentration difficulties.

byhookorbycrook

Most boys I know would only love it!
What borderline disorder?

KittyeeTrix

littlemis wrote: »

Is it acceptable for a resource teacher to make a child who suffers with Borderline Learning Disorder,and no confidence,do 20 jumping jacks????? The boy is 11 and was distracted by a classmate making faces,lost his concentration,and was looking around the room at the board for clues to the answer...His teacher told him off and sent him outside into the yard to do 20 jumping jacks.baring in mind the child is an asthmatic and it is winter, and the teacher knows this....????

That was not acceptable at all littlemiss.

I believe the point has been missed here completely by posters. The issue is not the type of punishment or whether the child would have been going to the yard anyway at breaktime. The issue is that a "resource teacher" punished a child for a lapse in concentration especially in light of the fact that the child has a type of learning disability. I don't need to know the specific type of disability OP as I'm not about to pick at the disability to try to justify the punishment this child was given. I believe the teacher was wrong in this instance.

The OP clearly said that the teacher told the child off so there is no ambiguity here at all. The teacher was not trying to help the child let off steam or refocus, she was punishing which is plain and simple (and wrong)

I have an 8 year old who has DCD(dyspraxia) which can manifest itself at times as an inability to concentrate but his "resource teacher" has been wonderful, makes mine and my son Billys life so much easier from a school point of view.
We sat and spoke at the beginning of the year and I told her that the most important aspect of Billys schooling for us was that he was happy, content, and full of confidence going to school. I never want him to be criticised or especially PUNISHED for any incidence arising out of his difficulties. His schoolwork takes second place to his self esteem and his level of happiness (I am however lucky in the respect that he is easily the most academic in his class but his handwriting is atrocious). His Resource teacher agrees with our assessment completely regarding Billys educational.
Another issue here is the issue of the child doing jumping jacks as an exercise and the association with asthma. My 14 year old son who is a rower suffers seasonal asthma. Every winter once the cold snap sets in without fail he suffers a setback with his asthma as the cold and exercise combined led to the higher chance of an asthma attack. This is a fact but this is still not the point. No-one is disputing the fact that exercise in moderation and medically supervised for asthmatics is a good thing. However, the child was out on his own as a punishment and not as an asthma prevention exercise!!!
If the other children in the class who had asthma were also doing jumping jacks then this argument could be made. You can't give the child punishment for something and dress it up as something else:(

Would the punishment have been acceptable if the child have been given detention at breaktime and asked to write lines, no it would not. The issue is not the type of punishment but the fact that the "resource teacher" handed out a punishment when I don't believe she should have for something the child has limited, if any control over at all....

byhookorbycrook

I still think that it depends on context, I have often brought a child who is finding it hard to concentrate out to the yard for a run to clear their minds,I see no problem there. I think you need to talk to the teacher and get the full picture.

littlemis

So let me raise a different topic....


Is it now acceptable for a principal of a school to stand over a person and raise their voice,deny making statements,and tell you,they decide what will and will not happen in their school.....Is it acceptable for them to make a parent feel intimidated....especially when there are no witnesses...The person is 5ft 3in and the principal is easily 6ft odd.....???

byhookorbycrook

Are both related?One adult indimidating another does not make for a good relationship.

E.T.

littlemis wrote: »

So let me raise a different topic....


Is it now acceptable for a principal of a school to stand over a person and raise their voice,deny making statements,and tell you,they decide what will and will not happen in their school.....Is it acceptable for them to make a parent feel intimidated....especially when there are no witnesses...The person is 5ft 3in and the principal is easily 6ft odd.....???

No it's not acceptable. There is a complaints procedure which should be used by parents. It should be available on the dept website - www.education.ie or else google and you'll get it. I actually wish more parents would use the proper procedure (I realise people aren't aware of it - I wasn't until recently!), it might make it easier to get rid of the bad eggs in our profession.

highgiant1985

littlemis wrote: »

Is it acceptable for a resource teacher to make a child who suffers with Borderline General Learning Disability,and no confidence,do 20 jumping jacks????? The boy is 11 and was distracted by a classmate making faces,lost his concentration,and was looking around the room at the board for clues to the answer...His teacher told him off and sent him outside into the yard to do 20 jumping jacks.baring in mind the child is an asthmatic and it is winter, and the teacher knows this....????

you mention the teacher told him off. How do you know this? i.e. is this what your son is telling you?

What a persons says and what a kid hears can be different so be careful in blaming straight away look to get the other side of the story first.

littlemis

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Are both related?One adult indimidating another does not make for a good relationship.

Yes they both are.

littlemis

veruca salt wrote: »

Eeek, that sounds quite bizarre, go talk to the teacher tomorrow I would suggest.

can not as principal wont allow it and teacher was only a replacement teacher and may not be back next year.

byhookorbycrook

Make another appt to see the principal,bring someone with you if you wish. Outline your concerns.I don't understand when you say the teacher won't be there next yr, do you mean in Jan or Sept 2011?

littlemis

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Make another appt to see the principal,bring someone with you if you wish. Outline your concerns.I don't understand when you say the teacher won't be there next yr, do you mean in Jan or Sept 2011?

I mean the principal says the teacher will not be at school from Friday, due to taking time off,which is apparently allowed,I don't know if it is time owing,sick time maternity leave,paternity leave or whatever, and he does not know if the teacher will be back or not. other than that I do not know.

byhookorbycrook

hmmm, panel maybe?So where will your child be next week?

KittyeeTrix

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

hmmm, panel maybe?So where will your child be next week?

Just wondering for those of us who are just parents and not teachers, what does panel mean?? and from what I gather the child will be at his usual school next week but the teacher in question will not....

@OP, at this stage I wouldn't worry too much about what has happened with your little lad last week. You need to focus on the future of your child in his particular school and find out what is the policy re: punishment/discipline for learning disadvantaged children.
If I were you, I would sit down and write out all the concerns you have regarding your sons discipline regime at school and when you feel it would be appropriate to discipline him and when it is not. Speak it over with the principal and his incoming teacher.

Make it clear that he is never ever again to be admonished in front of his peers for anything which stems from his "disability"........but make it clear that you have no issue at all with him being punished/disciplined for anything outside of this.

overmantle

littlemis wrote: »

can not as principal wont allow it and teacher was only a replacement teacher and may not be back next year.

I have read this over the past few days and was reluctant to contribute. Nobody posting on this thread was in the school but I do agree with the many posters who pointed out about the physical exercise/break being important. Your son may not have seen the reason for it and interpreted it solely as a punishment.

Littlemis, I agree totally with the last poster in that you badly need to move on rather than becoming stuck in gear about an incident that you have your own feelings about, based on what your little boy has told you. It's totally understandable that as parents we want to protect our children and it is extra sensitive for you as a Mum when your little lad has learning difficulties. We must also be careful not to overreact to situations and remain calm. Getting overly upset doesn't give out the right message to our little ones and can have the effect of escalating a situation rather than calming a situation down.

It seems that there was a meeting between yourself and the principal that did not go too well. If he was posting here, what would he be telling us? Were you intitially very worked up and upset when you went into the school? It's impossible for any of us to know any of these details, as we were not there but the only reason I'm trying to see all sides is because sometimes we need to.

Fluffyorganic1's post is very sensible and balanced. I agree wholeheartedly with it. My only reservation, from your point of view, is that your little boy must not get the feeling after last week that no matter what happens in the future, he can't/won't be punished in school, or Mum will be up. This would not be good for him in the longterm.

Last week was last week. I fully understand your anxiety and concern but perhaps you need to be a little less sensitive and try to be more positive. If you are fighting with the school, it is not a very firm foundation on which to build the mutual trust. Although some of what I am saying may be difficult, I am giving the advice I would give a friend and hope that you will be back on a positive note in the days and weeks ahead. We are living in times where there is much negativity. There are two ways of seeing everything, so try to choose the positive one. Take good care.

byhookorbycrook

Sorry, when a teaching post is suppressed, the last teacher in goes on a "panel" where they will be deployed to other schools.

I asked earlier what the borderline l/diff is,I asked as I'd deal with a child who has ADHD differently to a child with dyslexia etc.

E.T.

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

If I were you, I would sit down and write out all the concerns you have regarding your sons discipline regime at school and when you feel it would be appropriate to discipline him and when it is not. Speak it over with the principal and his incoming teacher.

I agree with a lot of your full post, but I really felt I had to explain a few things in relation to a parent coming in to discuss when it is "appropriate to discipline him and when it is not".

Discipline in a school is not the same as discipline at home. Behaviour that might be ok at home may be causing problems in school eg I've had parents in to complain that I gave out to their child for talking. They couldn't understand what the problem was with this until I explained that I had a class of 30+, one child talking leads to more, and if I have to repeatedly tell the same child to stop talking it's wasting my time, and the other childrens' time too.

It's the same with safety in school - it's fine to run around at home, but in a crowded yard kids have to pay more attention. In a crowded classroom kids have to be more careful with their belongings because of others tripping over them. If there's a child who constantly shouts out and interrupts, it impacts all the other kids too. It's all small things, and often parents don't realise that they cause so much hassle.

I would agree with you that a child shouldn't be reprimanded over anything stemming from a learning difference, but if a child is doing something which affects others in any way, the teacher will have to talk to them. Obviously this should be done sensitively and away from the class where possible. Quite often a child will take any comments like this as "giving out", but they need to understand (as far as their understanding will allow) that their behaviour wasn't correct.

littlemis

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Sorry, when a teaching post is suppressed, the last teacher in goes on a "panel" where they will be deployed to other schools.

I asked earlier what the borderline l/diff is,I asked as I'd deal with a child who has ADHD differently to a child with dyslexia etc.

sorry but it is as described,as in that is the name or the condition.he is not severe enough to go to s/n school,and I have since found out that even though it was recommended he gets resource teaching within the general allocation model in respect of his condition, that he is not...he is getting support teaching for 2 hours a week....according to the after test meeting on the day,we were told that he most probably does have a type of dyslexia,but due to his assessment scores in the test being below average,that his condition was worse than dyslexic....

Unless the school expel my child,he shall remain at the school,where any help is better than none.

E.T.

littlemis wrote: »

sorry but it is as described,as in that is the name or the condition.he is not severe enough to go to s/n school,and I have since found out that even though it was recommended he gets resource teaching within the general allocation model in respect of his condition, that he is not...he is getting support teaching for 2 hours a week....according to the after test meeting on the day,we were told that he most probably does have a type of dyslexia,but due to his assessment scores in the test being below average,that his condition was worse than dyslexic....

Unless the school expel my child,he shall remain at the school,where any help is better than none.

A "recommendation" is worth sweet feck all in the eyes of the Department. I've worked with a lot of kids with special needs, both physical and educational, and until recently, unless their report stated that the child NEEDED an SNA/resource hours/etc they could easily be turned down for it. Over the last 2 years, even the statement that they NEED this assistance doesn't go far enough. It's not a school decision at all.

As far as I'm aware of, 2.5 hours would be the absolute maximum a child with MGLD would be entitled to. If the child doesn't have an SNA, then they would attend Learning Support/Resource with another child, or as part of a group.

With regard to the point about his condition being "worse than dyslexic" due to his assessment scores being below average - the explanation that comes to mind is this: If a child scores below average in testing, but has a higher verbal IQ, then this discrepancy means that they MAY be entitled to extra help. If the child scores below average on both verbal and non-verbal testing, they're not entitled to extra help, unless the school can fit them in, and with all of the cutbacks, this is not always possible. Personally I think that's a disgusting attitude, but again, it's not teachers who came up with it, it's the Department.

littlemis

Thank you one and all, for your comments,they have all been very helpful.
I have no problem with my children being checked if they are in the wrong at school.On this occassion I felt the course or action taken by the teacher was a bit strong,but I think as OVERMANTLE has pointed out,it is time for me to move on with things.I am and only ever have been trying to arrange a meeting with said teacher to discuss the incident in a civilized manner.

Redpunto

As previous posters said, doing physical activity prior to homework/classwork, helps with concentraton, not only to balance the mind but also the body. It would have to depend on what way it was done, if the teacher did it genuinely thinking it would help the kids concentrate then OK, if it was to humiliate him, then hell no.

KittyeeTrix

Redpunto wrote: »

As previous posters said, doing physical activity prior to homework/classwork, helps with concentraton, not only to balance the mind but also the body. It would have to depend on what way it was done, if the teacher did it genuinely thinking it would help the kids concentrate then OK, if it was to humiliate him, then hell no.

This is the point I was making Redpunto:)

Helping the child to concentrate is one thing but dealing with lack of concentration by punishing is another. This is why I told the OP she should maybe have a chat with the school about her childs difficulties and establish appropriate measures of help and discipline (when needed).

I've only known my son is dyspraxic for the past 18 months but have already learnt that his self esteem is at this moment in time the single most important factor in his progressing favourably through primary school.
My sons teacher remarked one day that sometimes he can finish the writing work with the class and other times he could not. She said she felt he was just not trying hard enough and was gonna keep him in at break time to finish the writing. I had to explain to her that Billy when he does get the writing finished has expended much more energy and concentration than anyone else in the class and that by time it comes to the next writing exercise he is pretty much "all used up" for want of a better expression!!! Thankfully she understood what I meant and did not keep him in (not that I would have allowed this.....
I ended up getting her a factsheet for teachers on how to deal with children who have dyspraxia and we are now all working from the same page!!

gaeilgegrinds1

I would say jumping jacks are fine, not as a punishment though and definately not outside.

Da1sy

littlemis wrote: »

So let me raise a different topic....


Is it now acceptable for a principal of a school to stand over a person and raise their voice,deny making statements,and tell you,they decide what will and will not happen in their school.....Is it acceptable for them to make a parent feel intimidated....especially when there are no witnesses...The person is 5ft 3in and the principal is easily 6ft odd.....???

It depends what was said to the principal and the tone it was said in. Principal can't help being 6ft and so if he/she is taller that is not their problem. He/She is ultimately responsible for what happens in their school good or bad so they kinda DO have the right to decide what will and will not happen in their school. (Within reason naturally)

mat cauthon

Da1sy wrote: »

It depends what was said to the principal and the tone it was said in. Principal can't help being 6ft and so if he/she is taller that is not their problem. He/She is ultimately responsible for what happens in their school good or bad so they kinda DO have the right to decide what will and will not happen in their school. (Within reason naturally)

I have seen members of the public treat the principal/teacher in the exact same way. And treat the doctors, nurses, and health workers like that.
And poor misfortunate receptionists... secretaries.
So maybe a little respect alround is called for?

No it is not acceptable for anyone to behave like that...but one wonders what provocation was?

littlemis

mat cauthon wrote: »

I have seen members of the public treat the principal/teacher in the exact same way. And treat the doctors, nurses, and health workers like that.
And poor misfortunate receptionists... secretaries.
So maybe a little respect alround is called for?

No it is not acceptable for anyone to behave like that...but one wonders what provocation was?

Everything was said in a civilized calm and respectful manner,as I know honey gathers more flies than vinegar.and I even used my please and thank you's.....As for provocation...I asked if he would ask the teacher in question if I could have a meeting ..I wanted the teacher to explain to me, why jumping jacks out in the cold was an acceptable Punishment when she knew it would embaress a child with gmbld,when the psychologists report and the teachers in general know the child has no confidence,as it was constantly brought to my attention,he has no self esteme, and that the teacher in question was constantly saying praise him up and build his confidence..... I did not go in to cause a scene or with steam coming out of me ears or the top of my head,but yes I was annoyed that the teacher behaved like this ,when the same teacher had met with me before and we had a correction or punishment system set up which was up to then acceptable to all.The child even knew what to expect...and if my son came home and said that he got in trouble then he went through the whole thing with me and I then explained to him why teacher handed him the punishment,most of the time he knew he was wrong and would tell me so.......We worked on a reward system at the end of the week,when he was told to get out and do the jumping jacks he asked why what for and was told just get out......So I wanted to ask the teacher what happened to the system in place and why did my child come home very upset crying hysterically and any confidence boost he was getting ,was just, and still is ,gone to the wind......Teacher managed to avoid meeting with me...I WANT to say thanks again to all who replied...BUT for my son sake have decided to moved on,.....

mat cauthon

To be honest, many teachers would regard sending a kiddie out for a run around as a way of burning off excess energy and temper. Obviously this teacher got it wrong, if it upset your child so much, but I still query the background.
Not your child, obviously. But this teacher clearly felt this was all that was left - has he/she used behaviour chart, reward system and so on - if all this failed, maybe he/she had no options left, or was at the end of his/her tether? After all he/she could have 30+ other kids to handle as well.
And it is the principals job to stand between you and the teacher when you are clearly annoyed - maybe the principal was over the top - and maybe she/he wasnt. I dont know, I wasnt there. But I have always found my kids teachers to be very approachable when I had discipline issues - I always went in to find out what happened with the assumption in my head that the kiddie had done something wrong, not the teacher!

But there are too sides to every story, and I hope your child gets a teacher next year who may be able to deal with his issues in a way which suits you both.

All the best!

Mat.

overmantle

mat cauthon wrote: »

To be honest, many teachers would regard sending a kiddie out for a run around as a way of burning off excess energy and temper. Obviously this teacher got it wrong, if it upset your child so much, but I still query the background.
Not your child, obviously. But this teacher clearly felt this was all that was left - has he/she used behaviour chart, reward system and so on - if all this failed, maybe he/she had no options left, or was at the end of his/her tether? After all he/she could have 30+ other kids to handle as well.
And it is the principals job to stand between you and the teacher when you are clearly annoyed - maybe the principal was over the top - and maybe she/he wasnt. I dont know, I wasnt there. But I have always found my kids teachers to be very approachable when I had discipline issues - I always went in to find out what happened with the assumption in my head that the kiddie had done something wrong, not the teacher!

But there are too sides to every story, and I hope your child gets a teacher next year who may be able to deal with his issues in a way which suits you both.

All the best!

Mat.

Littlemis seems like a sincere parent who wants only the best for her child. It is impossible for any of us contributors to know exactly what the history was and how calm or otherwise conversations were. If the principal discouraged a meeting between Littlemis and the teacher, there must have been a good reason. While I have no doubt that Littlemis is genuine, I have seen situations in schools in the past, where a parent has been abusive towards a teacher/principal, yet when relaying the story afterwards, did not see it that way. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case but just that we all tend to see things from our own perspective and forget/neglect to consider that our own actions may have contributed to the situation.

I would also say that the business of the height of the principal etc was a very strange thing to be talking about.

The most important thing, in my opinion, is to try to build bridges with the school and to remain positive, rather than becoming fixated about jumping jacks several weeks ago, which the vice principal contacted Littlemis about. It was stated, if I remember correctly, that they were not a punishment. Children often come home to parents and put their own interpretation on things. Now, perhaps it's time to put this topic to bed?