Questions for Atheists

nozzferrahhtoo

sebastian4jc wrote: »

Atheism can't be true if God exists

Actually if you want to get pedantic, yes it can. It is called "Deism".

The A- means without so the word means "Without Theism". Deism is also without Theism.

If you wanted to get pedantic about it, half if not more of the people on this forum would be more accurately described as Adeist but they do not because this was not the word chosen historically by one crowd of people to define another group of people as "Not one of us" which is essentially all the word does and is.

Morbert

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Actually if you want to get pedantic, yes it can. It is called "Deism".

The A- means without so the word means "Without Theism". Deism is also without Theism.

If you wanted to get pedantic about it, half if not more of the people on this forum would be more accurately described as Adeist but they do not because this was not the word chosen historically by one crowd of people to define another group of people as "Not one of us" which is essentially all the word does and is.

Theism is the belief in the existence of God(s). Deism is a form of theism.

nozzferrahhtoo

Too over simplified to be correct I am afraid, but not worth derailing the thread over, it has been done to death on A&A before.

midlandsmissus

phutyle wrote: »

If you're so concerned about atheists talking about god, why are you posting here asking us to reply to questions that will inevitably involve talking about god?

Personally, I'd love to live in a world where I never had to mention god again. People like you make that impossible, though.

Now come on, you're on an Atheist and Agnositc forum, and you'd "love to live in a world where you never had to mention God again". Really? Why are you on here so.

midlandsmissus

Zillah wrote: »

Not so much the popularity of it, no. The fact that it is so common impacts my life and the way society is run, and that makes it important. Attitudes about sex, education, sectarianism, abortion, divorce etc are often dictated by a person's religious beliefs. Whether I like it or not that makes the question of God an important one.



Yes, but you see the claim of God's existence lacks what is called falsifiability, which basically means that even if it is not true, no one can ever prove it. If God is magic, then we can never prove he isn't there.



I think it means that I don't like falsehoods, that I hate to see people manipulated and controlled by religious leaders because of a false belief in imaginary beings. I don't like to see people base their morality on ancient and cruel books, nor do I like to see them subjugate themselves to the Pope or similar figures. I like to see people take responsibility for their own lives and morality, rather than let others do their thinking for them.

Why are you so angry?

Again, Zillah that post is...ill thought out to say the least.

"I hate to see people manipulated and controlled by religious leaders"

I believe in god and I DON'T follow any religious leader, as I'm sure neither do many others. Who are you to say 'I want to stop these people being manipualted and controlled", when you don't know people's circumstances? Stop over generalising. Maybe think of yourself rather than being so arrogant and deciding "what other people are being manipulated"

"I like to see people take responsibility for their own lives and morality, rather than let others do their thinking for them".

Oh the hypocrisy!

I've come on here before saying I have my own beliefs and don't follow any religion that is dicatated to me, and quelle surprise, was I applauded for thinking for myself, oh no!

I've seen a girl come on here saying she is starting to think for herself and disagreeing with catholic beliefs, and was she applauded for thinking for herself, oh no!

It seems atheists only want people to think for themselves when they completely agree with what atheists think. Who are you to say you are right, and everyone else should follow what you think. Sometimes atheism seems to me to be quite as arrogant as the religions they protest against.

Morgase

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Now come on, you're on an Atheist and Agnositc forum, and you'd "love to live in a world where you never had to mention God again". Really? Why are you on here so.

Some of us talk about these things because:

phutyle wrote: »

My daughter was born 2 years ago. From when she was 3 months, people in work would ask me about when and where she was going to be christened. At the time I had worked with these people for 4 years (and get on great with them) and had never mentioned atheism religion or the lack of it. But the rate of questioning got to the point that I just had to say that I'm an atheist, and we weren't going to be baptising her.

Same thing happened a few months later, just before my wedding. When I mentioned that is was going to be in a registry office, I had one person ask me if I required permission from my priest do do that, and several people say "and you'll probably have a blessing later on". No, again, I'm an atheist - no need for religious stuff at all, ever.

Of course, now - even though I don't ever bring up the subject - I'm often accused of "hating the church" or "being angry with god". Pretty much the same drivel you're coming out with here. So naturally, I have to define and defend my position against their prejudices and misconceptions, or face being constantly misrepresented.

Both she and I are going to face the same lines of assumptions when she's 7 (communion) and 12 (confirmation). The fun never ends.

So yeah, I stand by my assertion that if it wasn't for people like you, I wouldn't have to talk about god at all.

midlandsmissus

Morgase wrote: »

Some of us talk about these things because:

TBH Morgase I see yours and Phutyle's I see your point to an extent. Christianity is relevant in Ireland.

But also, I see it from a personal point. I've lived through all that - asked why I wasn't having communion, confirmation etc, and I think "just get over it!:rolleyes:" You're not the only atheist in the village. People asked, I answered, they were fine with it.
If you live in a catholic majority you're going to get questions, once people hear your viewpoint they are generally fine about it.

(In case anyone's confused I grew up athiest, I now believe in god)

I also think Ireland is already radically changing, and many of these issues will cease to exist altogether very soon.

What did you all think of the recent landmark case where the church of Ireland primary teacher was awarded compensation for being discriminated against in a Catholic school? That was a brilliant case, and will begin to break the Catholic Church's hold on the schools.

Things are changing, for the better, soon there will be non-religious schools.

Zombrex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I believe in god and I DON'T follow any religious leader, as I'm sure neither do many others.

Which god do you believe in and where did the concept come from? Is it the Christian god?

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Who are you to say 'I want to stop these people being manipualted and controlled", when you don't know people's circumstances? Stop over generalising. Maybe think of yourself rather than being so arrogant and deciding "what other people are being manipulated"

Unless you invented your own religion you are by definition being manipulated by other people.

I don't know if you invented your own religion but I'd imagine you didn't.

midlandsmissus

Wicknight wrote: »

Which god do you believe in and where did the concept come from? Is it the Christian god?


Unless you invented your own religion you are by definition being manipulated by other people.

I don't know if you invented your own religion but I'd imagine you didn't.

It's not the Christian God no, I do have my own understanding and beliefs in God, that ar not currently represented by any religion, so yes you could say I "Invented my own religion".

However I do not agree with religion in general, which broadly just means a group of people sharing the exact same beliefs.

I believe we are all individuals and think it is crazy that anyone should think we should all have the exact same beliefs as some-one else or be it a group of other people.

So therefore I wouldn't say "I invented my own religon", I would say "I decided on my own personal beliefs".

Zombrex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

It's not the Christian God no, I do have my own understanding and beliefs in God, that ar not currently represented by any religion, so yes you could say I "Invented my own religion".

Ok, so how do you know anything about this god?

Can you give an example of some property of it?

midlandsmissus wrote: »

So therefore I wouldn't say "I invented my own religon", I would say "I decided on my own personal beliefs".

So you don't expect that anyone else would believe the god you believe exists?

nozzferrahhtoo

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Now come on, you're on an Atheist and Agnositc forum, and you'd "love to live in a world where you never had to mention God again". Really? Why are you on here so.

Mainly because we have no choice.

There are things we much rather talking about. I for one am interested in Politics, Education, Children, Science, Medicine, Ethics, Morality, Sexuality and more. These are the things I want to talk about.

The issue is that every day when I attempt to talk about these things I am unfailingly confronted with people who wish to push god into every one of those realms of discourse.

Most of us are not on this subject because we want to speak about god, but because we want to work together to find a way to live in this world where we do not have to.

I want to wake up tomorrow and never speak about god and religion ever again. I simply… am…. not…. let.

MagicMarker

midlandsmissus wrote: »

It's not the Christian God no, I do have my own understanding and beliefs in God, that ar not currently represented by any religion, so yes you could say I "Invented my own religion".

However I do not agree with religion in general, which broadly just means a group of people sharing the exact same beliefs.

I believe we are all individuals and think it is crazy that anyone should think we should all have the exact same beliefs as some-one else or be it a group of other people.

So therefore I wouldn't say "I invented my own religon", I would say "I decided on my own personal beliefs".

Can you give us a description of this God? I assume it is a God like no other? Does it include any of the following?

a: Watches over us
b: Answers our prayers
c: Works in mysterious ways
d: Lives in a heaven
e: Is divine
f: Was involved in the creation of the universe and therefore everything in it
g: Knows everything about everything
h: Punishes people who are bad

If your god ticks any of the above then you don't ''think for yourself'' as much as you like to think you do.

robindch

midlandsmissus wrote: »

"Invented my own religion".

Apply for tax breaks.

You could make a fortune.

strobe

midlandsmissus wrote: »

TBH Morgase I see yours and Phutyle's I see your point to an extent. Christianity is relevant in Ireland.

But also, I see it from a personal point. I've lived through all that - asked why I wasn't having communion, confirmation etc, and I think "just get over it!:rolleyes:" You're not the only atheist in the village. People asked, I answered, they were fine with it.
If you live in a catholic majority you're going to get questions, once people hear your viewpoint they are generally fine about it.

(In case anyone's confused I grew up athiest, I now believe in god)

I also think Ireland is already radically changing, and many of these issues will cease to exist altogether very soon.

What did you all think of the recent landmark case where the church of Ireland primary teacher was awarded compensation for being discriminated against in a Catholic school? That was a brilliant case, and will begin to break the Catholic Church's hold on the schools.

Things are changing, for the better, soon there will be non-religious schools.

Why do you believe things are changing rapidly? Do you think the fact that people who would prefer not to have to talk about religion but feel the need to, talked about it? Do you think these changes would have come about if everyone everywhere when faced with the influence of religion in this country had of just thought "just get over it:rolleyes:". If it wasn't for people talking about it, here and elsewhere, I can guarantee you priests would still be raping kids, influencing government policy and controlling communities today. Edmund Burke (I think) had something to say along these lines, "All it takes for evil to.........." you know the rest.

Galvasean

midlandmissus wrote:

What did you all think of the recent landmark case where the church of Ireland primary teacher was awarded compensation for being discriminated against in a Catholic school? That was a brilliant case, and will begin to break the Catholic Church's hold on the schools.

By and large we were very happy to see it happen. There was a big thread on it.

midlandmissus wrote:

I also think Ireland is already radically changing, and many of these issues will cease to exist altogether very soon.

I agree with you to an extent. Things are changing, but I would not go so far as to say rapidly. Progress is being made, albeit slowly, more slowly than many such as I would like.
Also, it is worth noting that things are not simply changing by themselves. They are changing because people have decided to stand up and be counted. If everyone sat around and let the RCC dictate everything we'd still be ruled beneath the oppresive heel of canon law. It is only when people say, "Enough s enough" and go about making the change themselves that progress is made. It is simply not enough for us to just 'get over ourselves' and hope that change somehow comes about on it's own. We have to make the effort and make change happen. That's democracy. There is an old saying that tyranny thrives when good people do nothing.

liamw

midlandsmissus wrote: »

(In case anyone's confused I grew up athiest, I now believe in god)

Hope you don't mind me asking, what convinced you of the existence of this god?

TwoShedsJackson

robindch wrote: »

Apply for tax breaks.

You could make a fortune.

If it's good enough for L. Ron Hubbard...

midlandsmissus

MagicMarker wrote: »

Can you give us a description of this God? I assume it is a God like no other? Does it include any of the following?

a: Watches over us
b: Answers our prayers
c: Works in mysterious ways
d: Lives in a heaven
e: Is divine
f: Was involved in the creation of the universe and therefore everything in it
g: Knows everything about everything
h: Punishes people who are bad

If your god ticks any of the above then you don't ''think for yourself'' as much as you like to think you do.

liamw, Wicknight and Strobe I'll come back and answer your questions when I have a little bit more time.

To answer MagicMarker's question above, I've thought about it and these are my honest answers:

a) No
b) I think thoughts have power. What we think so we receive.
c) No
d) Yes, but to an extent. Is there but is also here, as us.
e) No
f) I think we created the universe.
g) No
h) No.

My views are definitely not entirely unique, but neither are yours, obviously other atheists and books on atheism have influence you, as different sources have with me.

Improbable

midlandsmissus wrote: »

liamw, Wicknight and Strobe I'll come back and answer your questions when I have a little bit more time.

To answer MagicMarker's question above, I've thought about it and these are my honest answers:

a) No
b) I think thoughts have power. What we think so we receive.
c) No
d) Yes, but to an extent. Is there but is also here, as us.
e) No
f) I think we created the universe.
g) No
h) No.

My views are definitely not entirely unique, but neither are yours, obviously other atheists and books on atheism have influence you, as different sources have with me.

These answers are a bit odd and unexpected. Thoughts have powers? Then why doesn't everyone who wants to win the lotto win it? Or why do loved ones die even if we "think" that we don't want them to die? Is there a criteria by which thoughts are judged?

And I'm pretty sure that we did not create the universe any more than you can create your own parents.

housetypeb

midlandsmissus wrote: »

liamw, Wicknight and Strobe I'll come back and answer your questions when I have a little bit more time.

To answer MagicMarker's question above, I've thought about it and these are my honest answers:

a) No
b) I think thoughts have power. What we think so we receive.
c) No
d) Yes, but to an extent. Is there but is also here, as us.
e) No
f) I think we created the universe.
g) No
h) No.

My views are definitely not entirely unique, but neither are yours, obviously other atheists and books on atheism have influence you, as different sources have with me.

F/ If you believe we created the universe(-Doesn't it follow that we also made god?)
Why do you need god ? What purpose does he serve?

Zillah

midlandsmissus wrote: »

a) No
b) I think thoughts have power. What we think so we receive.
c) No
d) Yes, but to an extent. Is there but is also here, as us.
e) No
f) I think we created the universe.
g) No
h) No.

You're insane. Congratulations.

Dave!

midlandsmissus wrote: »

liamw, Wicknight and Strobe I'll come back and answer your questions when I have a little bit more time.

To answer MagicMarker's question above, I've thought about it and these are my honest answers:

a) No
b) I think thoughts have power. What we think so we receive.
c) No
d) Yes, but to an extent. Is there but is also here, as us.
e) No
f) I think we created the universe.
g) No
h) No.

My views are definitely not entirely unique, but neither are yours, obviously other atheists and books on atheism have influence you, as different sources have with me.

MOD SNIP
Eh, that image is a wee bit graphic methinks.


DAVE SNIP
Eh, shut up Dades

ChocolateSauce

midlandsmissus wrote: »

f) I think we created the universe.

Would you kindly explain, in the greatest detail possible, how exactly "we" created the universe?

Hedman

midlandsmissus wrote: »

b) I think thoughts have power. What we think so we receive.

This sounds awfully like the nonsense that is "The Secret".

Tell you what, go over to an area in Africa that's been devastated by famine and tell the kids the reason they are starving is because they aren't thinking hard enough about a bacon sandwich.

eblistic

midlandsmissus wrote: »

b) I think thoughts have power. What we think so we receive.
d) Yes, but to an extent. Is there but is also here, as us.
f) I think we created the universe.

I really hope the scorn so far doesn't put you off elaborating because I, for one, am looking forward to this.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

My views are definitely not entirely unique, but neither are yours, obviously other atheists and books on atheism have influence you, as different sources have with me.

Again. Please elaborate.

midlandsmissus

Zillah wrote: »

You're insane. Congratulations.

As I'm on mobile web, I can't see who the three people are who thanked this. Hopefully it's not anyone I respect as I'll be hugely dissapointed. There are numerous people I don't agree with what on here but I have never resorted to calling anyone insane. Apart from anything else, a very childish and immature argument would you say? Zillah I would have expected more from you. I've posted on here for a long time, and talked to you on many occasions, I can't believe you said that to me. I could easily report this post and get it removed for personal abuse, but I think I'll let it stand in its ignorance.

MagicMarker

midlandsmissus wrote: »

As I'm on mobile web, I can't see who the three people are who thanked this. Hopefully it's not anyone I respect as I'll be hugely dissapointed. There are numerous people I don't agree with what on here but I have never resorted to calling anyone insane. Apart from anything else, a very childish and immature argument would you say? Zillah I would have expected more from you. I've posted on here for a long time, and talked to you on many occasions, I can't believe you said that to me. I could easily report this post and get it removed for personal abuse, but I think I'll let it stand in its ignorance.

Could you explain how we explained the universe? Hopefully it's a good explanation, because I'll have to slot you into the insane column too if it's not.

Also, if I think really hard about having sex with Jessica Biel, will it happen?

liamw

MagicMarker wrote: »

Also, if I think really hard about having sex with Jessica Biel, will it happen?

Now that would have been a far better plot for Inception.

Galvasean

MagicMarker wrote: »

Also, if I think really hard about having sex with Jessica Biel, will it happen?

Huh huh, good choice of words. :pac:

I would like to ad my name to the list of people who wants to hear how we created the universe.
So long as it doesn't end up like this.

King Mob

midlandsmissus wrote: »

As I'm on mobile web, I can't see who the three people are who thanked this. Hopefully it's not anyone I respect as I'll be hugely dissapointed. There are numerous people I don't agree with what on here but I have never resorted to calling anyone insane. Apart from anything else, a very childish and immature argument would you say? Zillah I would have expected more from you. I've posted on here for a long time, and talked to you on many occasions, I can't believe you said that to me. I could easily report this post and get it removed for personal abuse, but I think I'll let it stand in its ignorance.

You say it's childish but you're the one who believes that you can make magic happen if you really, really believe.

I've read into The Secret and the other law of attraction faff. It's incredibly childish, totally insane and downright insulting.