All your discussion on budget cuts / 4 year plan announcements today goes here.

Morlar

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Can't find anything myself but the numbers generally quoted are that 1.8 million people are still in work in the country and that 300,000 work in the public sector, so around 1.5 million private sector workers.

If that is correct and at this moment there are 50% workers not in the tax loop (set to change) means 750,000 Private sector workers - cheers for that.

Morlar

Morlar wrote: »

If that is correct and at this moment there are 50% workers not in the tax loop (set to change) means 750,000 Private sector workers - cheers for that.

Can anyone explain how this amount of people can carry this much debt :

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2010/11/24/pouring-more-cash-down-banking-black-hole-is-theft

How is this an opportunity for us? Let’s look at the numbers. Taking account of sovereign bond redemptions and deficits, Ireland needs about €74bn over the next four years. The banks are getting €90bn of funding from the ECB and another €35bn from the Irish Central Bank. So, to get everyone off the hook, €199bn is needed. We can add that number to the national debt (net of redemptions by 2014 and cash balances) of €76bn and come up with a total of €275bn. Or just over 200pc of GNP.

There is no hope of Ireland ever being able to repay this amount. Nominally, if there is a large growth of inflation in the European and Irish economy, it might be possible, but with tight monetary control from Frankfurt, that is not going to happen.

Above is assuming nothing else goes wrong in the next 4 years.

HarryPotter41

Morlar wrote: »

If that is correct and at this moment there are 50% workers not in the tax loop (set to change) means 750,000 Private sector workers - cheers for that.

Seems to be about right, CSO says 1.859 million in employment by their last stats and the public service does hover around 300,000.

While its tough at the low wage end I started off in low wage jobs and paid tax ( and at 32% ) and got on with it, everyone contributed then, wider tax base, and certainly a huge incentive to lift yourself out of that.

Giblet

Morlar wrote: »

If that is correct and at this moment there are 50% workers not in the tax loop (set to change) means 750,000 Private sector workers - cheers for that.

That's because they earn nothing

Morlar

Giblet wrote: »

That's because they earn nothing

The question was how are 750k private sectors supposed to carry €275,000,000,000.00 debt ?

Admittedly more of those 50% remaining 750,000 workers will ALSO be in the loop by the end of 4 yrs. However of THAT additional number - - - what they pay per head is a fraction of what the primary 750k Private sector taxpayers currently pay. I just would like someone to explain how that amount of private sector taxpayers can manage that level of debt.

Bearing in mind the govt plan 'ideal world' solution is to NARROW the deficit to 3% -meaning their best case scenario is that we will still at the end of 4 golden years of incredible good luck still spend more than we take in. I could be missing something obvious and know nothing about economics but from what I am reading this is all just simply not possible given the scale of the country.

politicsdude

Morlar wrote: »

Can anyone explain how this amount of people can carry this much debt :

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2010/11/24/pouring-more-cash-down-banking-black-hole-is-theft

How is this an opportunity for us? Let’s look at the numbers. Taking account of sovereign bond redemptions and deficits, Ireland needs about €74bn over the next four years. The banks are getting €90bn of funding from the ECB and another €35bn from the Irish Central Bank. So, to get everyone off the hook, €199bn is needed. We can add that number to the national debt (net of redemptions by 2014 and cash balances) of €76bn and come up with a total of €275bn. Or just over 200pc of GNP.

There is no hope of Ireland ever being able to repay this amount. Nominally, if there is a large growth of inflation in the European and Irish economy, it might be possible, but with tight monetary control from Frankfurt, that is not going to happen.

Above is assuming nothing else goes wrong in the next 4 years.

makes for prety grim reading but I'm sure those figures are extreme worst case senarios

Morlar

politicsdude wrote: »

makes for prety grim reading but I'm sure those figures are extreme worst case senarios

I disagree. I think those figures are best case scenarios. Those figures are on the basis that from . . . . . . . . . . . . NOW . . . . Nothing else additional and bad happens to our economy ever, ever.

politicsdude

MarkGrisham wrote: »

Now this budget might save us non-bankers a few quid!

http://rulehibernia.com/2010/11/the-four-year-plan

lol biffo should have been put in stocks a long time ago buddy

politicsdude

Morlar wrote: »

I disagree. I think those figures are best case scenarios. Those figures are on the basis that from . . . . . . . . . . . . NOW . . . . Nothing else additional and bad happens to our economy ever, ever.

i just can't get how the general populace is just sort of shruging their shoulders and doing feck all about it ... at least if there was a giant march through dublin demanding a general election NOW it would be something

i mean theres a few small protests but compare that to the ones in Greece or Portugal at least they are showing the assholes in charge that they ain't happy

Morlar

politicsdude wrote: »

i just can't get how the general populace is just sort of shruging their shoulders and doing feck all about it ... at least if there was a giant march through dublin demanding a general election NOW it would be something

It would be a cold day in hell before I march with jack o connor and siptu. They are one part of the problem that got us here.

HarryPotter41

politicsdude wrote: »

i just can't get how the general populace is just sort of shruging their shoulders and doing feck all about it ... at least if there was a giant march through dublin demanding a general election NOW it would be something

i mean theres a few small protests but compare that to the ones in Greece or Portugal at least they are showing the assholes in charge that they ain't happy

And just what the country needs is a huge march, populated by scumbag elements that will hijack it and cause bedlam and damage property. I am sure the good people of Dublin already struggling need to have to go through the hassle of having their cars and property damaged.

Dr.Silly

I HOPE EACH AND EVERY SINGLE LARGE MULTI NATIONAL COMPANY PULLS OUT OF IRELAND, AND THE COUNTRY GOES FURTHER INTO TURMOIL.

THINGS NEED TO START GETTING VIOLENT BEFORE THIS JOKE OF A GOVERNMENT IS PULLED OUT OF POWER.

AS*HOLES ...... NEVER MET SUCH A COMPLETE BUNCH OF UNEDUCATED, DUMB F*CKS IN ALL MY LIFE.

THEY CAN BURN IN HELL, THE WHOLE F8KIN LOT OF THEM

I FOR ONE AM DELIGHTED THE IMF/EU STEPPED.......LESS POWER FOR THE THICK F*CKS WE HAVE RUNNING THIS COUNTRY........

HarryPotter41

Dr.Silly wrote: »

I HOPE EACH AND EVERY SINGLE LARGE MULTI NATIONAL COMPANY PULLS OUT OF IRELAND, AND THE COUNTRY GOES FURTHER INTO TURMOIL.

THINGS NEED TO START GETTING VIOLENT BEFORE THIS JOKE OF A GOVERNMENT IS PULLED OUT OF POWER.

AS*HOLES ...... NEVER MET SUCH A COMPLETE BUNCH OF UNEDUCATED, DUMB F*CKS IN ALL MY LIFE.

THEY CAN BURN IN HELL, THE WHOLE F8KIN LOT OF THEM

I FOR ONE AM DELIGHTED THE IMF/EU STEPPED.......LESS POWER FOR THE THICK F*CKS WE HAVE RUNNING THIS COUNTRY........

What an incredibly intelligent contribution, country down the tubes, problem solved.

Dr.Silly

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

What an incredibly intelligent contribution, country down the tubes, problem solved.

lol, you think this country is down the tubes NOW ?
you ain't see nothing yet my friend....NOTHING !

People think they've hit bottom of this recession....it hasn't even started.

HarryPotter41

Dr.Silly wrote: »

lol, you think this country is down the tubes NOW ?
you ain't see nothing yet my friend....NOTHING !

People think they've hit bottom of this recession....it hasn't even started.

And your cure is to have the people that generate employment pull out of the country. I can see why that would cause ur doomsday scenario alright.

Dr.Silly

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

And your cure is to have the people that generate employment pull out of the country. I can see why that would cause ur doomsday scenario alright.

violence would make them think again

Doublin

As an ordinary citizen with no protection from the elites in this country with regard to what they want to take from me to fund their errors/lifestyle, I will now be avoiding (as much as possible)any charge they want to place on me to pay for their their error's/cupability. I currently have approx. 40% of my weekly spend on the black market/other external markets for my basics & plan to increase this to 60-70% by the new year.

Tbh, I would rather give my Euro to a local trying to get by/provide for his family than some big hole/vague obligation to what I class as gamblers who have had their fingers crossed over the last couple of years on a long shot that things would work out, knowing what was on the horizon but not telling us the truth.

For them to think that by loading all of the financial pain on the ordinary joe soap without any meaniful impact to them really sickens me & I'm opting out to this 'plan'.

HarryPotter41

Dr.Silly wrote: »

violence would make them think again

Of course, nothing like smashing the property of others in pursuit of "goals", its always the answer.

dr.bollocko

Dr. Silly:
Post in this thread again and I will ban you.

thebigbiffo

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

My take home pay has dropped by 15% in the last two years, including a pay cut of 5%. I will also be hit with the same new taxes as everyone else in the upcoming budgets over the next 4 years. So with the greatest respect in the world, learn what you are talking about before you make sweeping statements.

what's this a p'issing contest - i've lost 25% of wages over the same period which seems to be about the average if you're lucky to have a job. so bearing that in mind, what do i need to learn? the facts remain - in comparison to the private sector, you seem sweet enough.

edit: i just realised you're including the increased taxes and pension levy in your take home lol. my 25% has been gross wages. that's what you'll find in most of the private sector that are actually still working.

ejmaztec

Any hint of any insurrection here will fuck things up even more. Any investors will take off, and to add insult to injury, the tax-payer will end up paying for the damage when some knob decides that he wants to break something.

The arseholes "running" the country will be gone soon enough, and we just have to hope that the government in waiting doesn't turn out to be a bunch of arseholes as well.

Can't we just make terry and bolloko go around the world naked and each country gives us loads of money?

HarryPotter41

thebigbiffo wrote: »

what's this a p'issing contest - i've lost 25% of wages over the same period which seems to be about the average if you're lucky to have a job. so bearing that in mind, what do i need to learn? the facts remain - in comparison to the private sector, you seem sweet enough.

edit: i just realised you're including the increased taxes and pension levy in your take home lol. my 25% has been gross wages. that's what you'll find in most of the private sector that are actually still working.

I spent most of my life working in the private sector, started off in crappy low paid jobs and worked my way through life so I am well aware of the private sector and what goes on. The vast majority of people I know still working in the private sector did not take any cuts in pay. The only one who seems to be starting any kind of p***ing contest is you. Why not rail against all the private sector workers who have taken no pay cuts at all, the company I left three years ago atually gave a pay raise, why not ail against that?? Am totally sickened by the anti public sector rants that generally are uninformed generalisations.

marco_polo

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

I spent most of my life working in the private sector, started off in crappy low paid jobs and worked my way through life so I am well aware of the private sector and what goes on. The vast majority of people I know still working in the private sector did not take any cuts in pay. The only one who seems to be starting any kind of p***ing contest is you. Why not rail against all the private sector workers who have taken no pay cuts at all, the company I left three years ago atually gave a pay raise, why not ail against that?? Am totally sickened by the anti public sector rants that generally are uninformed generalisations.

I imagine people are not 'railing' against it because it completely f*cking irrelevant to our current plight.

You can rest assured if any private sector company is grossly overpaying its employees they will not be around for too long.

Gunsfortoys

http://news.ie.msn.com/business/article_old.aspx?cp-documentid=155350679

Irish 10-year bond yields were near the highest since before the euro was introduced in 1999 after LCH Clearnet increased the cost of trading the country's securities for the third time in as many weeks.
At 10.28am, the yield was at 8.996 per cent, up 0.132 per cent. The spread to the bund was 629.2 points.
"Relief in the European bond market on the back of Ireland's decision to resort to the EU bailout fund has turned out to be short-lived," Ulrich Wortberg, a fixed-income analyst at Helaba Landesbank Hessen-Thueringen in Frankfurt wrote in a research report today. "Risk premiums are heading higher."
The increase in margin for Irish trading will be based on outstanding positions at the close of business today, LCH said in a statement on its website today.
LCH said on November 10th it would add a 15 per cent extra margin requirement to Irish bond trades through its RepoClear service. On November 17th, it raised the extra margin to 30 per cent of net positions.
Spanish 10-year yields were 10 basis point higher at 5.17 per cent, while similar-maturity Italian yields were almost five basis points to 4.39 per cent.
The yield on the 10-year German bund, Europe's benchmark government security, was less than one basis point lower at 2.70 per cent, while two-year yields slipped two basis points to 0.94 per cent.
The euro weakened for a fourth straight day, trading at $1.3332, from $1.3335 yesterday.
Spain's funding for the rest of the year remains "comfortable," helped by better-than-forecast revenue and a shrinking budget deficit, and the government doesn't expect problems tapping financial markets going forward, said deputy finance minister Jose Manuel Campa.
Spain, which saw its borrowing costs surge to an eight-year high yesterday, has two more bond auctions scheduled this year. The Treasury will sell three-year debt on December 2nd, and 10- and 15-year securities on December 16th. The government has about €8 billion still to raise this year, according to the state borrowing plan.
"We have increased and front-loaded our fiscal consolidation," Mr Campa said in an interview at the finance ministry in Madrid late yesterday. "The revenues are actually above budget, so our financial conditions are better than we anticipated, so our financial position in terms of funding for the remaining month and a half is quite comfortable."

Jesus.:(

ilovesleep

Everyone i know has been so depressed this week

123balltv

strange :eek: on the economy forum there discussing an emergency bank holiday after IMF/EU announcement this Sunday.

Whats going on ? ?

ilovesleep

123balltv wrote: »

strange :eek: on the economy forum there discussing an emergency bank holiday after IMF/EU announcement this Sunday.

Whats going on ? ?

Its a day of mourning because we have been sold to the germans.

gonedrinking

We need to stop the bailout happening, a bailout which we have no hope of ever repaying in our lifetimes and which will significantly impact on our standard of living. Tomorrow will be too late for protests, the deal will be signed by then, protests must happen today!!!! We need to pressure the government into defaulting!!! That was what all the top economists agree is best for Ireland. Spread the message that there will be a protest outside the dail at 6pm today.

MarkR

Well, I wasn't going to. But you did put the subject entirely in capital. Compelling...

FearDark

Fúck off Jim Corr.

u140acro3xs7dm

Do you really think if we all stand on Kildare street for an hour that they will change their minds? Anyway its cold!

fedor.2.

8.30 in the morning, you're keen aint ya

mankteln

If their signing it today surely it'll be done by 6?

FearDark

More importantly, whats happening on X-Factor?

u140acro3xs7dm

FearDark wrote: »

More importantly, whats happening on X-Factor?

It's shít

ImportGunner

Brilliant !! lets wait for a nicer day LOL

damoz

gonedrinking wrote: »

We need to stop the bailout happening, a bailout which we have no hope of ever repaying in our lifetimes and which will significantly impact on our standard of living. Tomorrow will be too late for protests, the deal will be signed by then, protests must happen today!!!! We need to pressure the government into defaulting!!! That was what all the top economists agree is best for Ireland. Spread the message that there will be a protest outside the dail at 6pm today.

Whats your plan? Apart from the protest.

gonedrinking

fedor.2. wrote: »

8.30 in the morning, you're keen aint ya

This is the most important day in our history since independance, according to the indo the deal will be signed very soon. Thats why it is vital protests occur today. If the deal is signed then we are finished, we're in hell right now gentlemen, thats why we have to claw with our fingernails to stop this deal being signed. This is last chance saloon time now.

Terry

mankteln wrote: »

If their signing it today surely it'll be done by 6?

Indeed.
They'll be well and truly home by then.

Terry

gonedrinking wrote: »

This is the most important day in our history since independance, according to the indo the deal will be signed very soon. Thats why it is vital protests occur today. If the deal is signed then we are finished, we're in hell right now gentlemen, thats why we have to claw with our fingernails to stop this deal being signed. This is last chance saloon time now.

We'll be grand. Honestly. The world isn't going to end.

u140acro3xs7dm

gonedrinking wrote: »

This is the most important day in our history since independance, according to the indo the deal will be signed very soon. Thats why it is vital protests occur today. If the deal is signed then we are finished, we're in hell right now gentlemen, thats why we have to claw with our fingernails to stop this deal being signed. This is last chance saloon time now.

When was the last time a protest worked in this country?

gonedrinking

Terry wrote: »

We'll be grand. Honestly. The world isn't going to end.

I wasn't claiming its going to end, just that we will never have any prosperity again in our lifetimes if this bailout is agreed.

bbob02

ilovesleep wrote: »

Its a day of mourning because we have been sold to the germans.

:eek::mad:

CiaranC

Alaric Substantial Backspace wrote: »

When was the last time a protest worked in this country?

When the OAPs protested against pension reform, e.g. the last time any sort of numbers showed up for a protest. Scratch another excuse off the list.

OP you are wasting your time, Irish people dont care.

gonedrinking

Alaric Substantial Backspace wrote: »

When was the last time a protest worked in this country?

We've never had to protest about something so important before, a few taxi drivers whinging that they aren't earning 60k a year anymore isn't quite the same as this.

u140acro3xs7dm

gonedrinking wrote: »

We've never had to protest about something so important before, a few taxi drivers whinging that they aren't earning 60k a year anymore isn't quite the same as this.

I'm telling you if you got 100,000 people on the street today it wouldn't make any difference. The deal has been made. They know how much the people of the country are against everything they are doing but they don't give a monkeys what we think.

Dr Strange

ilovesleep wrote: »

Its a day of mourning because we have been sold to the germans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRTngtsOY8Q

Chairman Meow

Reading this kind of **** makes me want to vomit out of my face

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/croke-park-deal-to-save-tds-and-senators-from-pay-cuts-2436749.html

TDs and senators are set to escape pay cuts to their salaries in the forthcoming Budget because of the Croke Park Agreement.
TDs salaries were cut last year due to the public sector pay cuts and the public service pension levy.
But the State will still spend €17.6m this year on paying their wages and there is almost €10m budgeted for their expenses. The wages of our senators will cost €4.4m this year while their expenses will cost €3m. That amounts to a total pay and expenses bill of €35m.
The national recovery plan noted that the Government had reduced the pay of ministers, TDs, senators and senior public officials last year.

Lead by example you cretins. Cap all ministerial wages at 45K for the duration of the 4 year plan and a save a few million. Oh no, Biffo needs his 300K pa, sure doesnt he deserve it for doing such a stellar job of managing the country. 10 million expenses in a ****ing year?

Morebypasses

Protest and vandalise all ye like cos it won’t change a thing. This four year plan and bailout is the only show in town. Have we heard an alternative from the opposition? Dont think so!! Yes they might tweak around the edges but that it. I hope it rains sleet and snow on top of union protest tomorrow as they are as much to blame for this as are the government.