All your discussion on budget cuts / 4 year plan announcements today goes here.

Promac

barbiegirl wrote: »

Have to agree. I believe strongly in the right to protest and have marched. However I have NO interest in joining with trouble making scum as they wreck the city centre. Thanks very much but I'll pass.
By conducting themselves in a violent manner they are taking away the right of the vast majority who would like to protest, to do so, because they like me don't want to be associated.

You're assuming that people will be "conducting themselves in a violent manner" on saturday so you won't condone their possible future behaviour by joining a protest?

SeaFields

I've been reading through the plan as a whole for the last while. (I imagine many people here are going on the information they have gathered through the media).

The changes, without labeling them as being "good" or "bad", are very significant. Literally every page in the report has a fairly significant change for Ireland on it.

Just another that stuck out in addition to the minimum wage change

Three particular aspects of these arrangements have been identified as potentially problematic from a competitiveness and job creation perspective. These are:
o
Specific cost-increasing conditions such as pay rates for Sunday working;
o
Geographical divisions which can sometimes appear arbitrary; and
o
Inflexibility in measures for adjusting agreements in line with broader labour market developments

Changes are being brought in to correct this. I guess those on minimum wage can forget any overtime pay on Sundays.

justindublin

Mister men wrote: »

I'll be blunt. If you have'nt already get down there tomorrow and get the money out. The country is going to implode.

If Ireland was to implode your money prob wouldn't be worth Jack s*it anyway because the currency would tumble. Ports would close when workers walk off the job too, so what you gonna do swim to the UK?

People withdrawing money is pointless. I've a bigger chance of riding Barrack Obama tonight.

and thats assuming....
My maxed out credit card allows me to buy the €400 ticket....
I get to Dublin Airport in rush hour traffic within the next 20min...
I get through security without a valid passport...
Bend time to make it to Washington by 11.55pm...
The white house front gate is left open...
and Barrack is a bottom and has lube handy.

If all thats possible, THEN i'll go withdraw my money tomorrow.
Otherwise everyone who does is a fool in my opinion.

Ellian

So could someone help me with the numbers here? (mine below are back of fag packet calculations)

Total debt when all piled up is about 200 billion? Bit more? Bit less? (One thing about this crisis is that I am being seriously blase about billions of euro - whatever mental illness these bankers and politicians had must be catching)

Interest on that is based on who you talk to - 5% to 7% so if we say 6% - that puts the interest payments alone at about 12 billion a year?

Current tax revenues of the state are what - about 40 billion?

Current cost of running the state - about 50 billion? Somewhere north of the revenue we generate anyway. So even if the government slash and burn everything, and reduce the entire poulation to levels of penury where they are grubbing in the hedges for berries, we can barely service the interest on the debt, never mind the debt itself. Is that correct?

If so, then why is defaulting not even being discussed by any politician. Surely even the rest of Europe can see that that situation is just untenable.

Not sure about those numbers btw. Hoping somebody more in the know might be able to furnish us with better ones but just wanted to ask the question.

muffy

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

I am amazed at the apathy of the Irish people. Is there XFactor on Saturday? be no one at the protest I suppose so

The government and the IMF are saying to you
"Take your medicine, its all your fault"

It really is embarrassing. Maybe Louis Walsh will push the X factor forward an hour so we can all be at home in time for it :rolleyes:

MAYBE if more people who want to peacefully protest actually came to the protest instead of spouting anti left/protest soundbites, the tiny group of people who make trouble would become an invisible minority?

AckwelFoley

phasers wrote: »

The fact that no third income tax rate band was introduced is pissing me off, people earning €100,000+ per year should be on a higher rate.

Why?

Trust me im not, but if i pay the high rate of tax, i will contribute more taxes earning 200k than if i earn 55k, if you try to increase the rate even higher for people signicantly, well - they'll do what they did in the UK bank in the late 70's and fcuk off to america, taking their money with them

What needs to be done is to abolish or reduce some of the stupid tax allowances that they were given by charlie McCreevy, i heard that people over 100k only pay 25% after allowances are factored in.. i am disappoint

mossyc123

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

I am amazed at the apathy of the Irish people. Is there XFactor on Saturday? be no one at the protest I suppose so

The government and the IMF are saying to you
"Take your medicine, its all your fault"

A protest against necessary financial corrections is pointless. That's not being apathetic, it's being realistic.

Donkey Oaty

Ellian wrote: »

If so, then why is defaulting not even being discussed by any politician. Surely even the rest of Europe can see that that situation is just untenable.

There was a guy being interviewed Newstalk this morning - sorry, can't remember who it was, but I think he was an economist or commentator rather than a politician - and he said that even if defaulting is our best (or only) option, we still have to try and give it our best shot and avoid it, otherwise we would have no support from anyone else (USA, EU, etc) once we do default.

I'm not saying that defaulting is the only option, just pointing out that there may be a political rationale for denying that it is even if you think it is.

Ellian

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

There was a guy being interviewed Newstalk this morning - sorry, can't remember who it was, but I think he was an economist or commentator rather than a politician - and he said that even if defaulting is our best (or only) option, we still have to try and give it our best shot and avoid it, otherwise we would have no support from anyone else (USA, EU, etc) once we do default.

I'm not saying that defaulting is the only option, just pointing out that there may be a political rationale for denying that it is even if you think it is.

Ok, I can accept that but then that begs the question that for the USA and EU is it okay for the Titanic that is Ireland just to have to go ass end in the air or does the entire population have to slide down the deck and into the water?

Penn

Promac wrote: »

You're assuming that people will be "conducting themselves in a violent manner" on saturday so you won't condone their possible future behaviour by joining a protest?

From things already said on this thread, it would appear some people intend to cause trouble. Besides, all it really takes is for a few people to kick off. At that point, the gardai will have to do whatever they can to control things.

Even if 99%of the protesters are peaceful, what do you think will be on the front pages of the papers the next day? What do you think the media will be focusing on? What do you think the politicians will be focusing on? The troublemakers. Always. And that's why, with so many people so agitated, and the gardai undoubtedly being under pressure to keep things under control, tensions will be so high that all it will take is for a few people to overstep the mark and turn the peaceful protest into violence and trouble. I would love to go to a peaceful protest for this. But no way in hell am I stepping foot anywhere near Dublin this weekend.

Adamisconfused

Useless, useless government. Our system is flawed, but I'll take cuts to pay for sovereign debt, but to hell with paying interest on money borrowed to pay for bank debt while Seanie, fingers et al live the high life.

AlmightyCushion

Ellian wrote: »

So could someone help me with the numbers here? (mine below are back of fag packet calculations)

Total debt when all piled up is about 200 billion? Bit more? Bit less? (One thing about this crisis is that I am being seriously blase about billions of euro - whatever mental illness these bankers and politicians had must be catching)

Interest on that is based on who you talk to - 5% to 7% so if we say 6% - that puts the interest payments alone at about 12 billion a year?

Current tax revenues of the state are what - about 40 billion?

Current cost of running the state - about 50 billion? Somewhere north of the revenue we generate anyway. So even if the government slash and burn everything, and reduce the entire poulation to levels of penury where they are grubbing in the hedges for berries, we can barely service the interest on the debt, never mind the debt itself. Is that correct?

If so, then why is defaulting not even being discussed by any politician. Surely even the rest of Europe can see that that situation is just untenable.

Not sure about those numbers btw. Hoping somebody more in the know might be able to furnish us with better ones but just wanted to ask the question.

I owe you €10000 and I tell you that I can't afford it so you're not getting it, tough titties. Then I come back to you at a later date and say "Any chance you can lend me €50 till I get paid on Friday", you'd tell me to go fúck myself. You won't give me a cent until I pay you the €10000 I owe you and even when I do give it back to you you could still be quite hesitant over it. That is one of the problems with it.

SeaFields

Some of this stuff might never happen. Enda has been speaking about "the plan". Linky

davyjose

Biggins wrote: »

Good christ!!!

Has this still to be stated yet fcukin' again! :mad:

YOUR SAVINGS ARE SAFE - STATE GUARANTEED - GOING NOWHERE EXCEPT TO YOU WHEN YOU WANT THEM.

For frigs sake!!!
WHAT THE HELL IS BEING TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS! :mad:

chill the fcuk out!

You really expect the people of this country to trust a guarantee from this state?

I wouldn't trust it to wipe my arse with.

Sherifu

Well this blow by blow of the plan on the six one news looks great. /s

Time to stay abroad me thinks.

High energy

I'm absolutely disgusted at todays announcements, the children, sick, elderly, taxpayers, jobless, etc all getting screwed over to protect the inflated public sector wages and numbers.

Ellian

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I owe you €10000 and I tell you that I can't afford it so you're not getting it, tough titties. Then I come back to you at a later date and say "Any chance you can lend me €50 till I get paid on Friday", you'd tell me to go fúck myself. You won't give me a cent until I pay you the €10000 I owe you and even when I do give it back to you you could still be quite hesitant over it. That is one of the problems with it.

No I understand that but at the same time if my numbers are any way acucrate at all, does that not make the 6 billion in cuts almost irrelevant. If I owe you 100K, and am paying you the interest only of 6K a year and not touching the lump sum - and that 6K represents all of my earnings while I am sleeping in a ditch, and slowly starving to death at what point do you say "you know what, maybe we need to rethink a thing or two"

Donkey Oaty

Ellian wrote: »

Ok, I can accept that but then that begs the question that for the USA and EU is it okay for the Titanic that is Ireland just to have to go ass end in the air or does the entire population have to slide down the deck and into the water?

I think they know that the salvage operation would be necessary and expensive and damage other shipping lines, and they are watching us with binoculars.

bbob02

i,m sure i heard the leader say that 40,000 people would leave the country and that he has dealt with THAT IN MIND

Run_to_da_hills

Vat hikes is not going to help high street retail spending here.

Thank God for fleabay and online shopping.

bbob02

damn i hope we all win the lottery

AlmightyCushion

Ellian wrote: »

No I understand that but at the same time if my numbers are any way acucrate at all, does that not make the 6 billion in cuts almost irrelevant. If I owe you 100K, and am paying you the interest only of 6K a year and not touching the lump sum - and that 6K represents all of my earnings while I am sleeping in a ditch, and slowly starving to death at what point do you say "you know what, maybe we need to rethink a thing or two"

My example was pretty dumbed down. The state needs to be able to borrow, it's vital. If we default we can't borrow from the international markets and neither can the banks. So when you're boss needs to borrow from the bank to pay for supplies the company needs to survive, there won't be any money to borrow and the company goes tits up and you're out of a job.

So by defaulting we just start digging our own grave. By not defaulting we can service the debt and work towards getting the economy back on track so that we can start clearing the debt. Through most of the boom I believe we only just serviced our debt and didn't actually repay any of the lump sum we owed.

Yakult

Biggins wrote: »

Good christ!!!

Has this still to be stated yet fcukin' again! :mad:

YOUR SAVINGS ARE SAFE - STATE GUARANTEED - GOING NOWHERE EXCEPT TO YOU WHEN YOU WANT THEM.

For frigs sake!!!
WHAT THE HELL IS BEING TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS! :mad:

LOOK

Biggins

davyjose wrote: »

You really expect the people of this country to trust a guarantee from this state?
I wouldn't trust it to wipe my arse with.

Well thats your right to that opinion.
- But this utterly stupid reoccurring idiocy of "the banks are going to collapse tomorrow - I must pull my money out" garbage idea, one that is thrown out there by people that in clear honesty, should have more kop-on at this stage after years and years of being in education!

I'll chill the hell out when stupid rabble rousing posts stop being posted by schite stirrers or the uneducated that should have been paying more attention to their lessons in school while they attended!

th3 s1aught3r

Well, despite the 'Plan' being brought out today, bond yields on Irish debt have gone up again! I think the markets have lost hope in us

AckwelFoley

davyjose wrote: »

chill the fcuk out!

You really expect the people of this country to trust a guarantee from this state?

I wouldn't trust it to wipe my arse with.

That is a european guarentee..as in cowen said yea we guarentee the frist 100k deposit and europe, then said,, ok fattie, you really havnt got the money to back your mouth up, so they backed up his guarentee

Donkey Oaty

Ellian wrote: »

No I understand that but at the same time if my numbers are any way acucrate at all, does that not make the 6 billion in cuts almost irrelevant. If I owe you 100K, and am paying you the interest only of 6K a year and not touching the lump sum - and that 6K represents all of my earnings while I am sleeping in a ditch, and slowly starving to death at what point do you say "you know what, maybe we need to rethink a thing or two"

That's a great metaphor. The creditors would want to rethink a thing or two as well. If I was one of them I'd prefer it if you were earning - even just living - rather than dying in a ditch.

I might even lend you a suit and bus fare for the job interview.

Biggins

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

Well, despite the 'Plan' being brought out today, bond yields on Irish debt have gone up again! I think the markets have lost hope in us

I see really nothing n the plan that addresses or helps create further industrial growth or employment in all honesty - well except for a a dropping of one Euro an hour!
Whoop-de-do... Is that it? Thats FF's master plan. Christ almighty!:rolleyes:

PeterIanStaker

High energy wrote: »

I'm absolutely disgusted at todays announcements, the children, sick, elderly, taxpayers, jobless, etc all getting screwed over to protect the inflated public sector wages and numbers.

What did you expect instead? Intelligence? Leadership? good ideas?

Sorry, wrong country.

Biggins

snyper wrote: »

That is a european guarentee..as in cowen said yea we guarentee the frist 100k deposit and europe, then said,, ok fattie, you really havnt got the money to back your mouth up, so they backed up his guarentee

Its unreal! Some STILL don't get that and post their "I must get my money quick" nonsense!
The only thing that they are doing by posting that rubbish, is showing a lack of education and/or poor listening skills to what's being said.

...And its been said MANY, MANY times by the government, by the opposition, by the European banks who are giving even further banking guarantees - and this is months before the now even FURTHER loans!

..And still that rubbish is posted!

Would davyjose mind telling those posting that rubbish - to chill the hell out too?

davyjose

Biggins wrote: »

Well thats your right to that opinion.
- But this utterly stupid reoccurring idiocy of "the banks are going to collapse tomorrow - I must pull my money out" garbage idea, one that is thrown out there by people that in clear honesty, should have more kop-on at this stage after years and years of being in education!

I'll chill the hell out when stupid rabble rousing posts stop being posted by schite stirrers or the uneducated that should have been paying more attention to their lessons in school while they attended!

The post you reacted to stated: "I'm concerned about my savings."

How exactly is that shite-stirring or rabble rousing?

AckwelFoley

davyjose wrote: »

The post you reacted to stated: "I'm concerned about my savings."

How exactly is that shite-stirring or rabble rousing?

im concerned about my savings too.


I have none

Dave_24irl

This plan is horrific.

The anger is spilling over on Facebook. You need only take a glance at Fianna Fail's official facebook page to see the threats never to vote for the government parties ever again etc.

Also:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Not-a-single-one-of-my-preferences-will-go-to-Fianna-Fail-in-this-election/113410895393181

Can much stock be placed in this? Or are people just venting without actually taking action at the polls?

Ali Babba

I honestly think the taxpayer needs to see heads roll in the banks and government to swallow all this hardship, it really is so unfair to have to suffer for the sins of others. We need to see a cap on government and civil servants wages, some of them are earning superstar money for run of the mill jobs.

Most of my friends in retail are closing their doors after the Christmas as the budget f**ked any chance of making money for this period, their only chance they had this year and those idiots running this country picked the worst possible time of the year to hold a budget, just goes to show how out of touch they are with business in general. In 2008 they f**ked up the car sales by introducing the change in motor taxation system. As a result people didn't buy cars on the run up and left dealers with cars that had a different road tax cost even though the cars were only a month apart.

It has to be said that this government has f**ked up every business sector in this country, they seemed clueless as to how a business is run and the hardships faced by the business owners.

I think the elephant in the room is that there isn't going to be an economy in this country next year to pay off all the debt incurred and if they think by upping taxes that they're going to solve the problem they're majorly mistaken.

th3 s1aught3r

davyjose wrote: »

The post you reacted to stated: "I'm concerned about my savings."

How exactly is that shite-stirring or rabble rousing?

I can sort of understand why some people might be worried if they are being reassured by the government who gave us such classics as:

"we will have a soft landing"
"Our banks are fully capitalised"
"This is the final figure for the bank bailout <insert any number here>
"your savings are safe" !!

Donkey Oaty

Biggins wrote: »

Its unreal! Some STILL don't get that and post their "I must get my money quick" nonsense!
The only thing that they are doing by posting that rubbish, is showing a lack of education and/or poor listening skills to what's being said.

That's all very well, Biggins, but how does that affect those of us who struggled bravely through the discontinuation of Green Shield Stamps?

I maintain that they are still legal tender, but try telling that to the guy in the toll booth on the East Link bridge.

Don't bother trying to bribe guards with them either. They all seem to have toasters already.

dory

As my name sake once said, "Just keep swimming, just keep swimming..."

Biggins

davyjose wrote: »

The post you reacted to stated: "I'm concerned about my savings."
How exactly is that shite-stirring or rabble rousing?

Thats right!
The post I reacted to was the following...

so eh seriously is it time to start thinking about taking our savings out of the bank...

...And that question has been answered many, MANY times in the press, the media, by politicians, by banking people, by European economists, by MANY posts here by others too.

Christ almighty, if one hasn't kopped on the answer to that by now they are either living with their head up their arse, wearing permanent earplugs and covers over their eyes thats its a bloody wonder they can get out of bed!

seanleavy

Mister men wrote: »

TD cuts? Thought not. Expect trouble on Saturday folks.

Remember, if you get caught on Saturday it might affect your chances of getting a work permit in another country, should you want to leave of course.

Biggins

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

That's all very well, Biggins, but how does that affect those of us who struggled bravely through the discontinuation of Green Shield Stamps?

I maintain that they are still legal tender, but try telling that to the guy in the toll booth on the East Link bridge.

Don't bother trying to bribe guards with them either. They all seem to have toasters already.

I remember them too and collected them. Thats a whole generation thing that the latest ones won't get! :pac:

AckwelFoley

as i type this my missus is going absolute mental with this new announcment of taxes and levies. Shes normally one not to care less, but they've now annoyed her.

Cowen, if you're reading this.. leave the country, from my experience you've got about 24 hours before she finds you, and when she sgets you.. i can tell you one thing.. its gonna hurt. She doesnt care for your words of "National interest"

Consider this a heads up buddie

Dean820

Anyone know how much they're cutting the dole by?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

They were saying that a lot of deposits were withdrawn in recent weeks (billions) from Irish banks. Is there a different reason for this do you think ?

That wasn't joe blogs down the road taking out 1000, it was big companies and people with large deposits.

You are guaranteed 100K in deposits.

If they protect average joes deposits, there will be serious problems.

The banks cannot be allowed to fail, if they do it will have a domino effect on the entire world. How much it will effect the worlds economy is beyond me. Anglo Irish, AIB and BOI collapses, they will default on their loans, if they do then the European central bank will be in serious trouble, wave goodbye to investors, the Euro would collapse and you would have a much worse situation than we have now.

The "plan" is not nice, but I would rather take the hit now and hope for our economy to grow over the next decade. Get it over with as soon as possible and try to get on with my life.

I understand that a lot of people are going to have it very very difficult, those on min wage jobs, social welfare and people with mortgages. It's going to be a bumpy ride and I just hope we all make it out of this shít storm.

To those people giving ill advice about withdrawing your deposits, ye haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about. This is mindless rabble... Scaremongering and utter rubbish. By withdrawing your money, you add to the problem. Banks will need the capitol, and they will get it one way or another, you will have to pay more taxes and more cuts will be made, but the banks will get their money, they will not be allowed to fail.

If you have over 100K in a bank, go to a financial advisor and seek advice. you are guaranteed 100K per person, so 200K in a joint account is guaranteed too.

I'm unhappy, i'm worried and I want heads to roll too, but I rather not add to the problem. By all means, go out and protest, make sure your voice is heard, write to whoever you think will listen, but christ, don't cause the taxpayer any more burden by acting the mug and causing a riot, damaging buildings, etc etc. You are the ones going to pay for it. More cuts, more job losses more tax hikes. That's all that will do. Oh and the entire world, who is watching us now, will lose even more confidence.

Work together on resolving the issue.

There will be an economy still... How will you eat, drink or enjoy yourselves? You gotta spend money, you gotta contribute in some way shape or form to the economy.

Less of the disruptive shíte please. It's only going to cause more damage.

AckwelFoley

Dean820 wrote: »

Anyone know how much they're cutting the dole by?

about a tenner or less i would reckon

Biggins

snyper wrote: »

as i type this my missus is going absolute mental with this new announcment of taxes and levies. Shes normally one not to care less, but they've now annoyed her.

Cowen, if you're reading this.. leave the country, from my experience you've got about 24 hours before she finds you, and when she sgets you.. i can tell you one thing.. its gonna hurt. She doesnt care for your words of "National interest"

Consider this a heads up buddie

Funny you should say that because my wife whom up to this year wasn't really interested in economics at national level and/or politics, is lately getting deeper and deeper into such things.

She'd never been so knowledgeable and politically aware before the last few months - but by lord, she is now up to date with the goings on up in Dublin by all sides.
She better sees the bigger picture about how some things are related from the small scale to the larger scale and with that learned knowledge, sese more and more of the stupidity of those in power, that she once used to dismiss lightly before.

Now she just wants to hang Cowen and co by the bolsheviks.

up for anything

What time and where does this Saturday demo kick off? My babby is catching a bus from Eden Quay on Saturday morning and I don't want her to walk into what could be trouble.

dollyk

if im mistaken you would have to own your property to have to pay it. The bank owns mine so ill bill them

123balltv

Vinny Browne was right last night
Cowen confirmed tonight approx 6% interest rate charge for IMF/EU package :eek:
cant afford it not this little Island

Biggins

up for anything wrote: »

What time and where does this Saturday demo kick off? My babby is catching a bus from Eden Quay on Saturday morning and I don't want her to walk into what could be trouble.

In all honestly, tell her to stick with a group that is more organised looking, possibly older in age (although thats no guarantee that they too won't start jumping fencing), stick with an organisation that has a better name - and if trouble starts, calmly walk away from it right away, no hesitation.

squod

123balltv wrote: »

Vinny Browne was right last night
Cowen confirmed tonight approx 6% interest rate charge for IMF/EU package :eek:
cant afford it not this little Island

Bingo, we can't afford it. End of. Need general election before the budget or we're back to relying on the same traitors who gave us the blanket guarantees.
Then we're truly fucked.