EU/IMF loan package charges 6%

irishh_bob

cowen and lennehan have obviously lost it , in many countries , a millitary coup would have happened at this stage , the thought of our nation being saddled with this multi generation mortgage is a prospect more frightening than any run on the banks , if we got strong leadership and made moves to form some sort of political and societal pact towards dealing with our problem in a realistic manner , we would be best served by defaulting , leaving the euro and dealing only with the IMF , this would involved wealth loss on a huge scale but at least we could wipe the slate , this gargantuan loan effectivley sells us into bondage under the EU

i think at this point every person of voting age needs to contact thier FG , LABOUR or SINN FEIN TD to hammer home the message that we will not be mortgaged to bail out irish and by proxy european banks , if they dont listen , we all need to get out on the streets , everyone is focusing on getting thier savings out but the bailout is far more serious , if its at a rate of %

btw , where the fcuk is our so called president right now

kaiser sauze

Bob_Latchford wrote: »

Just googling Paul Summerville. Here he is on Marion Finucane show from 6th November saying terms will be worse for Ireland than Greece and in region of 6%

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2010/pc/pod-v-06111047m36smfs1.mp3

42mins. Hes mad as hell and hes not going to take it any more

WOW!

This is one of the guys that was getting lambasted by donegalfella and Scofflaw for scaremongering on another thread.

Once again, the scaremonger is likely to be correct.

kaiser sauze

mike65 wrote: »

Okay stop panicking

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE6AN28B20101124

Oh, I'm reassured now! :P

Blatter

BUMP

A spokesman has said Cowen had been referring to the rate paid on recent Irish bond issues, not the possible rate of interest on any rescue package from the IMF or EU.

EDIT: Just saw mike65's post

keno-daytrader

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

BUMP

A spokesman has said Cowen had been referring to the rate paid on recent Irish bond issues, not the possible rate of interest on any rescue package from the IMF or EU.

EDIT: Just saw mike65's post

Lets pray that its not 6% and it was a mistake on his part, but would it really be a shock if this govt feked these negotiations up? Look what they have been at since being elected.

It seems to most people that we are powerless to stop these gangsters driving around in their Merc's and raping us with their high pay and multiple pensions.

Any sign today of any paycuts for these gangsters????

After the budget, they will still be driving around in the Merc's, we must really look like a nations of fools to outsiders.

Soldie

Even if we are offered a rate of 6% I can imagine Brian Cowen thumping the table and insisting that it's 12.5% or nothing. I have zero faith in his ability as a leader.

Absurdum

I asked this in the AH thread but probably better suited here

If the ECB are gonna try and play hardball with us regarding the reported 6% interest rate, can we tell them to piss off back to Frankfurt, negotiate our own deal with the IMF independent of Europe, and take things from there?

kaiser sauze

Absurdum wrote: »

I asked this in the AH thread but probably better suited here

If the ECB are gonna try and play hardball with us regarding the reported 6% interest rate, can we tell them to piss off back to Frankfurt, negotiate our own deal with the IMF independent of Europe, and take things from there?

The IMF are advancing 1/3 of the eventual bailout figure.

So, no.

EDIT - I suppose we could try and negotiate with them directly for the full amount, but if we decline their joint offer with EU/EFSF, I don't see why they would entertain us.

Scofflaw

kaiser sauze wrote: »

WOW!

This is one of the guys that was getting lambasted by donegalfella and Scofflaw for scaremongering on another thread.

Once again, the scaremonger is likely to be correct.

(Corrects Prime Minister's comments after spokesman said Brian Cowen was referring to previous bond auctions not a possible rate for an IMF/EU loan)

Which is why I feel jumping up and down shouting about the latest rumour is pretty silly. I hope you don't object to my keeping this one in mind next time I'm being lambasted for lambasting.

cordially,
Scofflaw

kaiser sauze

Scofflaw wrote: »

Which is why I feel jumping up and down shouting about the latest rumour is pretty silly. I hope you don't object to my keeping this one in mind next time I'm being lambasted for lambasting.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I don't see the issue with them using the 5% that Greece were offered and using that as a basis for projecting what our rate is. (this feels like deja vu to me, I think we are crossing threads here)

We will see who is correct.

[And I acknowledged mike65's post at post #55]

kumate_champ07

why should we have to pay interest? If your parents loan you money they dont charge you interest, why should the EU?

If it wasnt for the internet we'd be more clueless to what goes on, ordinary people have been screwed for a long long time

Scofflaw

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I don't see the issue with them using the 5% that Greece were offered and using that as a basis for projecting what our rate is. (this feels like deja vu to me, I think we are crossing threads here)

We will see who is correct.

[And I acknowledged mike65's post at post #55]

There's value in exploring all the possible scenarios, but it's a pretty academic exercise while the figure is still unknown. The only effect it can really have is that if the figure that comes out is below the 6-7% that's been bandied about, people will be relieved, and the government will earn some kudos - personally, I consider that an unwanted outcome.

I do also find it difficult to take seriously the level of reaction to the figure of 6%, given the previous level of reaction to a figure of 7% derived from various other talking heads. How can one first take a speculative figure of 7% seriously, and then take a second speculative (or simply misheard) figure of 6% equally seriously?

I appreciate that's an attitude which some find obnoxious - but hey, I vote Green, so I'm kind of used to it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sir Oxman

Scofflaw wrote: »

There's value in exploring all the possible scenarios, but it's a pretty academic exercise while the figure is still unknown. The only effect it can really have is that if the figure that comes out is below the 6-7% that's been bandied about, people will be relieved, and the government will earn some kudos - personally, I consider that an unwanted outcome.

I do also find it difficult to take seriously the level of reaction to the figure of 6%, given the previous level of reaction to a figure of 7% derived from various other talking heads. How can one first take a speculative figure of 7% seriously, and then take a second speculative (or simply misheard) figure of 6% equally seriously?

I appreciate that's an attitude which some find obnoxious - but hey, I vote Green, so I'm kind of used to it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Should Ireland insist the interest rate be tied to the rate of economic growth?
This blog suggests so

maninasia

Icepick wrote: »

The EU countries would have to pay off the loan if Ireland defaults. So it's a complete opposite of what you anti-EU protesters think.
And I guess you also haven't objected to the billions the EU has poured into Ireland over the years.

Makes me sick to see people criticising the EU, typical begrudgery. The EU has helped Ireland far more than it has hindered it. The Irish did it to themselves, plain and simple. Borrowing more money was always going to be difficult, hard to complain when we borrow from the lender of last resort.

All that said default and debt for equity is the way to go, but this is not the fault of the EU.

maninasia

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

why should we have to pay interest? If your parents loan you money they dont charge you interest, why should the EU?

If it wasnt for the internet we'd be more clueless to what goes on, ordinary people have been screwed for a long long time

Yeah the EU should give us free money, yeah the EU are our parents. Grow up!

maninasia

Scofflaw wrote: »

There's value in exploring all the possible scenarios, but it's a pretty academic exercise while the figure is still unknown. The only effect it can really have is that if the figure that comes out is below the 6-7% that's been bandied about, people will be relieved, and the government will earn some kudos - personally, I consider that an unwanted outcome.

I do also find it difficult to take seriously the level of reaction to the figure of 6%, given the previous level of reaction to a figure of 7% derived from various other talking heads. How can one first take a speculative figure of 7% seriously, and then take a second speculative (or simply misheard) figure of 6% equally seriously?

I appreciate that's an attitude which some find obnoxious - but hey, I vote Green, so I'm kind of used to it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

5% or 7%, it won't matter, the numbers say default (unless EU starts printing money, don't hold your breath).

Nody

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

why should we have to pay interest? If your parents loan you money they dont charge you interest, why should the EU?

Your parents can also ground you and not let you go out, take legal decisions or give you pocket money; are you willing to give that up?

And to the poster saying that Ireland has paid for all EU aid with fishing has it so wrong it is not funny. Ireland has received net ~42 billion EUR in aid since joining (72 paid to Ireland , 30 paid back) and is only expected to be a net contributor to EU in 2013. On the other hand all the fish take up in Irish waters since 1950 is worth ~12 billion EUR in today's value, a net benefit of 30 billion EUR there (excluding value of access to the EU market etc.).

This of course exclude that fishers has not been robbed in the first place and are taking up more fish as percentage then ever from Irish waters.

Now since I know I'll get cries that I'm wrong I suggest you read up here and on the Irish payments before bringing that one up again.

jmayo

123balltv wrote: »

The EU have us by the balls

The converse of this is that we have the EU, more correctly the German banks, the British banks, the French banks, etc by the balls.
Except our government are too effing thick to notice this.
Either that or they are so subservent that they will bend over and take it.
Correction they will get us to bend over and take it. :mad:

I have been using the term MAD as the option we should hit them with if they offer anything above 3%.
MAD would be Mutually Assured Destruction or as a green colleague said yesterday MAB = Mutually Assured Bankruptcy.

We need a government that doesn't blink, but one that can push them to the limit.
Hell we need a poker player, any chance one of boards.ie owners could step in ?

I have said this elsewhere and I am adding it here.
I believe ff are going to sign a deal that will result in Ireland paying 5 to 7% on the loans.

They are refusing to announce what happens to their 4 year plan at different interest rates.


They are going to leave the next government with a ticking time bomb.

Absurdum wrote: »

I asked this in the AH thread but probably better suited here

If the ECB are gonna try and play hardball with us regarding the reported 6% interest rate, can we tell them to piss off back to Frankfurt, negotiate our own deal with the IMF independent of Europe, and take things from there?

According to rumours it is the IMF that are offering better terms ?

maninasia wrote: »

Makes me sick to see people criticising the EU, typical begrudgery. The EU has helped Ireland far more than it has hindered it. The Irish did it to themselves, plain and simple. Borrowing more money was always going to be difficult, hard to complain when we borrow from the lender of last resort.

All that said default and debt for equity is the way to go, but this is not the fault of the EU.

Only a couple of eejits are blaming the EU for the creation of our mess, but what we are blaming them for is the very stringent terms they are now offering.
These terms will result in us living in penury only to default down the road.


Lest one forgets it is the banks of the major EU states that ultimately benefit from this bailout since they are the ones that lent the money and bought the bank bonds originally.
The EU banks have to take a hit or we are all fubarred, even them.

maninasia wrote: »

5% or 7%, it won't matter, the numbers say default (unless EU starts printing money, don't hold your breath).

The Euro as it is currently constituted is finished anyway.
I have been saying this every since the Greek fiasco broke.
The different between the strong well run economies and the week often dodgily run economies is just too great.
Setting the same interest rates across the two groups is incompatible and one set urgently requires some form of devaluation.

Buford T Justice

Scofflaw wrote: »

There's value in exploring all the possible scenarios, but it's a pretty academic exercise while the figure is still unknown. The only effect it can really have is that if the figure that comes out is below the 6-7% that's been bandied about, people will be relieved, and the government will earn some kudos - personally, I consider that an unwanted outcome.

I do also find it difficult to take seriously the level of reaction to the figure of 6%, given the previous level of reaction to a figure of 7% derived from various other talking heads. How can one first take a speculative figure of 7% seriously, and then take a second speculative (or simply misheard) figure of 6% equally seriously?

I appreciate that's an attitude which some find obnoxious - but hey, I vote Green, so I'm kind of used to it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I agree. I think the figures of 5 - 7% are a load of guff. It seems like a deliberate leak to cause speculation on how screwed we will be, before the govt come out and announce a rate of less than 5%, they can turn around and say, aren't we great lads, we've got this rate for ye.

droidus

gambiaman wrote: »

Should Ireland insist the interest rate be tied to the rate of economic growth?
This blog suggests so

Its the only answer, and probably the only kind of deal which would calm the markets - thats IF we dont default.

irishh_bob

Absurdum wrote: »

I asked this in the AH thread but probably better suited here

If the ECB are gonna try and play hardball with us regarding the reported 6% interest rate, can we tell them to piss off back to Frankfurt, negotiate our own deal with the IMF independent of Europe, and take things from there?

yes but it would mean our banks collapsing over night , thier would be no money in the ATM machines , pensioners would not be paid , public sector workers would not be paid and business would be effected , how long this would happen i dont know but thier would be anarchy for a certain length of time , for such a move to be contemplated , thier would need to be a large amount of public and political consenus , that is impossible under the present leadership , i think this bailout is a disaster of unimaginable proportions , we simply cannot afford it , default will happen eventually anyway , the europeans want us to take the loan now so thier banks can be saved , they wont give a damn about us if we default in two years , brian cowen knows this but he is either too weak or too cynical to change course

unless we get an interest rate of around 1% , then we cannot allow this mortgaging of our future to go ahead , if every man woman and child needs to take to the streets , so be it , everyone of voting age needs to contact thier local FINE GAEL , labour or sinn fein TD and express thier outrage at what FF is about to saddle us with

mike65

A spokesman for Olli Rehn was speaking a bit earlier and reading between the lines it sounds like the negotiations are going to arrive at a figure of less than 5%.

irishh_bob

maninasia wrote: »

Makes me sick to see people criticising the EU, typical begrudgery. The EU has helped Ireland far more than it has hindered it. The Irish did it to themselves, plain and simple. Borrowing more money was always going to be difficult, hard to complain when we borrow from the lender of last resort.

All that said default and debt for equity is the way to go, but this is not the fault of the EU.

the stat is funded right through untill next june , our problem right now has nothing to do with our ability to fund the state ( which is a huge problem in itself btw ) , it is one of bank debt which has been fused with sovereign debt , german and british banks lent wrecklessly to the likes of anglo irish yet only ireland is expected to descend into poverty for this folly , british and german banks are creditors of anglo irish and the rest of the irish banks , its nothing to do with the irish tax payer

irishh_bob

Nody wrote: »

Your parents can also ground you and not let you go out, take legal decisions or give you pocket money; are you willing to give that up?

And to the poster saying that Ireland has paid for all EU aid with fishing has it so wrong it is not funny. Ireland has received net ~42 billion EUR in aid since joining (72 paid to Ireland , 30 paid back) and is only expected to be a net contributor to EU in 2013. On the other hand all the fish take up in Irish waters since 1950 is worth ~12 billion EUR in today's value, a net benefit of 30 billion EUR there (excluding value of access to the EU market etc.).

This of course exclude that fishers has not been robbed in the first place and are taking up more fish as percentage then ever from Irish waters.

Now since I know I'll get cries that I'm wrong I suggest you read up URL="http://inshore-ireland.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=769&Itemid=175"]here[/URL] and on the Irish payments before bringing that one up again.

oh get over your guilt , germany was in rescession for 15 years untill around two years ago , anglo irish and the irish banks were about all german banks could lend to , germany done well out of ireland too , we were buying twice as many bmw,s per head as germany for around ten years

Tipp Man

irishh_bob wrote: »

oh get over your guilt , germany was in rescession for 15 years untill around two years ago , anglo irish and the irish banks were about all german banks could lend to , germany done well out of ireland too , we were buying twice as many bmw,s per head as germany for around ten years

Yeah but now the germans are asking us to pay for all those Beemers and we ain't got the cash. but it sums up nicely the difference between the 2 countries, we bought beemers we couldn't really afford (in such large numbers), the Germans didn't

It's easy have beemers when somebody else is paying

Bob_Latchford

Tipp Man wrote: »

Yeah but now the germans are asking us to pay for all those Beemers and we ain't got the cash. but it sums up nicely the difference between the 2 countries, we bought beemers we couldn't really afford (in such large numbers), the Germans didn't

It's easy have beemers when somebody else is paying

The debt that is being talked of now is run up by small group of developers friendly with banks and FF.

The mortgage and credit debit is something else.

Icepick

c montgomery wrote: »

Everything the EU gave over the years can be offset against the fishing rights that we gave up all those years ago. Fishing was a huge industry in ireland 30 years ago, while still being completly underdeveloped. Now its all but gone while french and spanish supertrawlers plunder our seas.

source?

kaiser sauze

maninasia wrote: »

5% or 7%, it won't matter, the numbers say default (unless EU starts printing money, don't hold your breath).

Printing money (QE) goes against everything the ECB's current admin believe in so, you're right, I agree.

jmayo wrote: »

The converse of this is that we have the EU, more correctly the German banks, the British banks, the French banks, etc by the balls.
Except our government are too effing thick to notice this.
Either that or they are so subservent that they will bend over and take it.
Correction they will get us to bend over and take it. :mad:

I have been using the term MAD as the option we should hit them with if they offer anything above 3%.
MAD would be Mutually Assured Destruction or as a green colleague said yesterday MAB = Mutually Assured Bankruptcy.

We need a government that doesn't blink, but one that can push them to the limit.
Hell we need a poker player, any chance one of boards.ie owners could step in ?

I have said this elsewhere and I am adding it here.
I believe ff are going to sign a deal that will result in Ireland paying 5 to 7% on the loans.

They are refusing to announce what happens to their 4 year plan at different interest rates.


They are going to leave the next government with a ticking time bomb.




According to rumours it is the IMF that are offering better terms ?




Only a couple of eejits are blaming the EU for the creation of our mess, but what we are blaming them for is the very stringent terms they are now offering.
These terms will result in us living in penury only to default down the road.


Lest one forgets it is the banks of the major EU states that ultimately benefit from this bailout since they are the ones that lent the money and bought the bank bonds originally.
The EU banks have to take a hit or we are all fubarred, even them.



The Euro as it is currently constituted is finished anyway.
I have been saying this every since the Greek fiasco broke.
The different between the strong well run economies and the week often dodgily run economies is just too great.
Setting the same interest rates across the two groups is incompatible and one set urgently requires some form of devaluation.

To your first bolded section, I have said pretty much the same elsewhere on this board. Fianna Fáil have figured a way out to get back into power the election after next. Pin the 'default' tag on the next government and Bridie will be back at the polls for them.

You've got to admire them.

I would've thanked your post, but I argue that the Euro is not dead, yet. If the correct decisions are made, there is a way through. Portugal, Spain and Belgium's woes are different to ours, at least their governments have made some right calls, unlike here.

Fingers McGee wrote: »

I agree. I think the figures of 5 - 7% are a load of guff. It seems like a deliberate leak to cause speculation on how screwed we will be, before the govt come out and announce a rate of less than 5%, they can turn around and say, aren't we great lads, we've got this rate for ye.

Even a rate approaching 5% is not workable.

The opportunity cost now is penury or default.

Scofflaw

Icepick wrote: »

Everything the EU gave over the years can be offset against the fishing rights that we gave up all those years ago. Fishing was a huge industry in ireland 30 years ago, while still being completly underdeveloped. Now its all but gone while french and spanish supertrawlers plunder our seas.

source?

Essentially, a Daily Mirror journalist with an overheated imagination - see the thread on giving away all our resources, or here: http://www.seaaroundus.org/eez/372/14.aspx

Real figures are more like €12bn since we joined the EU, and we get most of the catch in Irish waters, and a good deal more than we got before we joined the EU. Nor was fishing ever a "huge industry" - at its peak it employed about 12,000 people, most of the part-time, in very small inshore boats. It currently employs not that much less, and most of the difference is because we now use bigger boats, which means more catch per fisherman.

cordially,
Scofflaw

kumate_champ07

maninasia wrote: »

Yeah the EU should give us free money, yeah the EU are our parents. Grow up!

It was an analogy, why are you telling me to grow up? Did you mean to say 'get with the program'?

It's not free money if you have to pay it back. America seems to be the place that gets free money, they are in extreme debt compared to us.

If you pay extra back then they make a profit. why should they be alowed make a profit? who exactly are they helping here?

kumate_champ07

jmayo wrote: »

The converse of this is that we have the EU, more correctly the German banks, the British banks, the French banks, etc by the balls.
Except our government are too effing thick to notice this.
Either that or they are so subservent that they will bend over and take it.
Correction they will get us to bend over and take it. :mad:

I have been using the term MAD as the option we should hit them with if they offer anything above 3%.
MAD would be Mutually Assured Destruction or as a green colleague said yesterday MAB = Mutually Assured Bankruptcy.

We need a government that doesn't blink, but one that can push them to the limit.
Hell we need a poker player, any chance one of boards.ie owners could step in ?

I have said this elsewhere and I am adding it here.
I believe ff are going to sign a deal that will result in Ireland paying 5 to 7% on the loans.

They are refusing to announce what happens to their 4 year plan at different interest rates.


They are going to leave the next government with a ticking time bomb.




According to rumours it is the IMF that are offering better terms ?




Only a couple of eejits are blaming the EU for the creation of our mess, but what we are blaming them for is the very stringent terms they are now offering.
These terms will result in us living in penury only to default down the road.


Lest one forgets it is the banks of the major EU states that ultimately benefit from this bailout since they are the ones that lent the money and bought the bank bonds originally.
The EU banks have to take a hit or we are all fubarred, even them.



The Euro as it is currently constituted is finished anyway.
I have been saying this every since the Greek fiasco broke.
The different between the strong well run economies and the week often dodgily run economies is just too great.
Setting the same interest rates across the two groups is incompatible and one set urgently requires some form of devaluation.

what we need is someone with big balls negotiating for us, that way they cant get a hold on us, because the current crowd in charge seem to be making a balls of it!

meglome

c montgomery wrote: »

Everything the EU gave over the years can be offset against the fishing rights that we gave up all those years ago. Fishing was a huge industry in ireland 30 years ago, while still being completly underdeveloped. Now its all but gone while french and spanish supertrawlers plunder our seas.

I suppose you're going to provide figures for this? Cause I'm happy to provide then to show you're mistaken.

maninasia

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

It was an analogy, why are you telling me to grow up? Did you mean to say 'get with the program'?

It's not free money if you have to pay it back. America seems to be the place that gets free money, they are in extreme debt compared to us.

If you pay extra back then they make a profit. why should they be alowed make a profit? who exactly are they helping here?

We are part of the EU which consists of 35 nations. We've already taken in far more funds from the EU than we ever paid into it. Now you are asking other governments to give Ireland money for free, what do you think their taxpayers will say? Do you think they have the odd 100 billion or so lying around to give us, free, that may never ever be paid back?
Do you think Ireland is a priority for them or their taxpayers?

The answer is for the bank bondholders to take the hit, if that is still possible. The government is walking us into yet another disaster, I can't believe they have no negotiating skills whatsoever, it's time to force the situation...your banks also take a hit or risk the whole Eurozone going down. That's how you get a good deal in the real world, you have to play with all you've got. Get these muppets to stand down , put in a general election, right now, and let's get negotiating!

Tipp Man

Bob_Latchford wrote: »

The debt that is being talked of now is run up by small group of developers friendly with banks and FF.

The mortgage and credit debit is something else.

Substitute beemers for property which is what i was implying

Would the developers have paid ridiculous money for sites if the demand for houses/apartments wasn't there from the public??

Vicious circle

kaiser sauze

In case it has not been mentioned here, the charges on the financial assistance package are likely to be 6.7%.

This is on RTÉ now...

Fúck

kippy

kaiser sauze wrote: »

In case it has not been mentioned here, the charges on the financial assistance package are likely to be 6.7%.

This is on RTÉ now...

Fúck

6.7
D....E.....F.....A......U.......L........T

That is mental. Not sure who is trying to screw who here but ultimately the Euro is fcuked.

irishguy

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1126/economy_bailout.html

How the hell can they expect us to pay this. If this is true we will have no choice but to default in the coming years.

Butch Cassidy

I think this means we're snookered. What would this be? 8-10billion a year in payments? Eh...

Someone had Batt O'Keefe by the short and curlies.

jmayo

kippy wrote: »

6.7
D....E.....F.....A......U.......L........T

That is mental. Not sure who is trying to screw who here but ultimately the Euro is fcuked.

Well I can tell you it is us, the Irish citizens who are being screwed.
And at the moment I keep hearing Dueling Banjos for some reason.