Landlord withholding part of the deposit

Poncke

Hi, tenant looking for advice.

My landlord is withholding 267 euros from a 1300 euro deposit because he thinks the carpet wasn’t as clean as we moved in because we didn’t hoover enough and he mentioned dirty shoes worn. He said needs to clean the carpet covering the first floor and stairs. I don’t know if he cleaned already.

Here is the story:

1. On the 17th of October the landlord signed a tenant reference stating the house was clean and tidy and he would refund the full deposit
2. On the 2nd of November the whole house was cleaned for a viewing, including hoovering the carpet.
3. On the 11th and 12th of November we put in 9 hours between us cleaning the house, including hoovering the carpet
2. On the 13th of November the lease ended and we handed over the keys to the agent who made a report of the house telling us it was good. He actually mentioned it was cleaner than we when we got it, but that’s not on the record
3. As soon as we walked out the door, viewers walked in. Please note it was pouring rain.
4. On the 15th 16th and 17th I called the landlord and left voice mails to get the deposit returned to us. On the 17th I also send him a text message. Right after the text he called me. He would go to the house on the 18th to check the house himself as he didn’t trust the agent and the report. He would call me back on the 19th about the deposit.
5. On the 23rd I still hadn’t heard from him and I sent him a text about the deposit.
6. On the 24th he sent me a text with the following:
Ronald I have inspected the property and in general u have left it in good shape however it would appear that the carpet was not hoovered to often and dirty shoes worn. That was a new carpet prior to u moving in and needs to be washed at cost of 220 euro + VAT therefore I will be sending u back 1033 euro please forward on your bank details to lodge tomorrow.

My questions are:
1. We don’t think the carpet was new when we moved in. Does he have to prove that it was indeed new by producing receipts showing when it was bought?
2. Is it allowed to inform us of holding back deposit via text message, no proof whatsoever?
3. Does he have to prove we made the footprints? I mean, people were in the house after we cleaned. We don’t know what happened after we handed over the keys. 10 days have past now.
4. Can we go back and clean ourselves if need be?
5. 220 + vat seems really expensive, I have found professional carpet cleaners who can do it for between 65 and 165 euro. Can he just go ahead and pick an expensive cleaner?
6. Is this not considered normal wear and tear (apart from dirty shoes, but that’s not proven yet). I mean carpets do get dirty after time.
7. Is it ok for him to have the whole 1st floor and stairs cleaned when it might be sufficient just to treat the dirty spots.

Not sure what to do here, but I am preparing to go to the PRTB with this.

Anyway, thanks for your help.

Tigger

tell him that cleaning is an expense between lettings and you will be contacting a solicitor on the advice of threshold (or whatever they are called now)

if he dosent cough up asap you will be claiming for the money + costs



(this is no legal advice if yu want legal advice contact a solicitor )

Poncke

Tigger wrote: »

if he dosent cough up asap you will be claiming for the money + costs



(this is no legal advice if yu want legal advice contact a solicitor )

Rofl Thanks, love the cough up part

I think I will get onto Treshold and then PRTB

djimi

Poncke wrote: »

1. On the 17th of October the landlord signed a tenant reference stating the house was clean and tidy and he would refund the full deposit

What do you mean by a tenant reference? Did he sign something after an inspection to say that the house was clean and tidy and that he was going to return the full deposit? That being the case then I dont see how he has any grounds try and take your deposit.

Cleaning of carpets (unless exceptionally dirty or stained thru neglegence) are not the responsibility of the tenant when moving out. The repair of general wear and tear such as cleaning carpets is the landlords problem, not yours.

Plus €220+ is very expensive to have carpets cleaned. When I moved into my apartment the landlady had all the carpets cleaned at a cost of €50. If he does have grounds to charge you and you must pay then before any work is done and money paid insist on seeing a quote from the cleaner.

Joe Schmo

In this case you should go through PRTB. Lodge a case against the landlord (costs about 40/60euro) and let the process take its course. It takes approx 7 months from lodging to cash in hand.

I went through the whole process myself so I can only speak from my experience, but what the PRTB will look for:

*proof the carpet was clean before you moved in (this part is essential and often overlooked by inexperienced LLs/Tenants)
*proof the carpet was dirty when you moved out.

The landlord would need proof of both items above to withhold rent. The report the agent made on the day you moved out should mention the general cleanliness. If it doesn't state explicitly that the carpet was dirty then you should be found to be right.

Try to get the agents opinion on paper- you could ask through email why the landlord is hassling you considering he mentioned it was cleaner than when you got it. If he confirms that was his opinion then you have him on the record.

FYI: What was signed a month before you moved out should work to your advantage- the PRTB will take it into account.

In my case the PRTB took a positive view of us offering to go back and clean areas again. I am undecided if that will look positive in every case though.

I would favour your chances going through the PRTB. Read back over some past cases to see what the PRTB is looking for. Also you may get back your deposit with about 250 euro in damages so it is worth going for. The final upshot is a smarter landlord who will be more aware what is legal and isn't.

Poncke

djimi wrote: »

What do you mean by a tenant reference? Did he sign something after an inspection to say that the house was clean and tidy and that he was going to return the full deposit?

Hello Djimi, no, he signed that before his inspection, The story is, we never dealt with the landlord stated on the lease, we always dealt with his dad. His dad got a stroke in June. So when we went to his dad for a tenant reference, the landlord came to his dads house and signed the reference himself without ever seeing the house.

Joe Schmo wrote: »

Try to get the agents opinion on paper- you could ask through email why the landlord is hassling you considering he mentioned it was cleaner than when you got it. If he confirms that was his opinion then you have him on the record.

Joe, I am trying to get the report off the agent, but he is kind of a chancer and is all mouth but no actions. But I will see what I can get out of him.

Thanks to both

Idbatterim

Im having a similarish issue, except I broke the lease early, but was told deposit would be returned, we didnt leave until new tenants had been found who moved in the day after we left. So there was no "down time". The Letting Agent even managed to let it to the new tenant for more than we were paying! After weeks of being onto the letting agent and then the landlord, the landlord has written a cheque for €875, citing cleaning costs for the loss of €325! we paid a €1200 deposit. Now the thing that makes me laugh is this, when we first moved in, the apartment was filty, when we left, we left the place immaculate. To make things easier on the letting agent as we were breaking lease, we also showed the apartment to prospective tenants. Im really wondering whether to drop it and say ok we got back 3/4 of deposit, or get back in contact. I dont know if I have a leg to stand on as we did break lease early though...

ztoical

Idbatterim wrote: »

Im having a similarish issue, except I broke the lease early, but was told deposit would be returned, we didnt leave until new tenants had been found who moved in the day after we left. So there was no "down time". The Letting Agent even managed to let it to the new tenant for more than we were paying! After weeks of being onto the letting agent and then the landlord, the landlord has written a cheque for €875, citing cleaning costs for the loss of €325! we paid a €1200 deposit. Now the thing that makes me laugh is this, when we first moved in, the apartment was filty, when we left, we left the place immaculate. To make things easier on the letting agent as we were breaking lease, we also showed the apartment to prospective tenants. Im really wondering whether to drop it and say ok we got back 3/4 of deposit, or get back in contact. I dont know if I have a leg to stand on as we did break lease early though...

But they didn't keep part of the deposit because you broke the lease early, they kept it for cleaning costs which they are not allowed do. I assume they also didn't provide you with receipts for this cleaning work. Tell them they can't keep any of the deposit for cleaning and to return it asap or you'll be contacting the PRTB.

Hayzooz

Is there anything these greedy cnuts won't stoop to to save a few quid!

Things ain't as good as they used to be for them, so they're panicking

Idbatterim

I assume they also didn't provide you with receipts for this cleaning work.

You hit the nail on the head there, Im sure there are no receipts. And Im sure they are lying through their teeth! The amount that was withheld made me furious, ok if they lied and told me the cleaning was 100-€150 I may have let it go, but am I meant to believe cleaning companies can actually charge that money and still be in business? For unskilled Labour, that figure is more than myself, my brother and gf who were living in the apartment earn combined in a day, and two of us are managers in a company!

jenny jinks

I know a guy who has lived in a few different rented houses. He urinates into a few plastic cups and leaves them on carpets under beds in the house before he moves out. If he does not get his deposit back in full before he leaves, he knocks over the plastic cups when the landlord is not looking. If he gets his deposit back he picks them up and throws the urine into the toilet.

Poncke

jenny jinks wrote: »

If he does not get his deposit back in full before he leaves

He must be knocking over a lot of cups of urine then because you never get the deposit back before you leave. Always after the hand over.

I still have to meet the landlord that returns the deposit beforehand.

convert

Hayzooz wrote: »

I always left using deposit as last month's rent...that way, the landlord has no chance at all to rip you off.

While some landlords may allow a tenant to do this, a tenant has no right to refuse to pay the last month's rent expecting the landlord to accept the deposit in lieu of the rent. A deposit is not to pay the last month's rent, it's there as a security for the landlord should the tenant damage the house beyond normal wear and tear, or if any bills have been left unpaid.

Hayzooz

convert wrote: »

While some landlords may allow a tenant to do this, a tenant has no right to refuse to pay the last month's rent expecting the landlord to accept the deposit in lieu of the rent. A deposit is not to pay the last month's rent, it's there as a security for the landlord should the tenant damage the house beyond normal wear and tear, or if any bills have been left unpaid.

Realistically (I mean PC bullsh*t aside) it's always the best thing to do. There's no way a landlord will get you out within four weeks, you get to use up your deposit and not be deducted these rubbish charges.

I recommend all tenants to do this.

You cannot lose this way.

Graces7

convert wrote: »

While some landlords may allow a tenant to do this, a tenant has no right to refuse to pay the last month's rent expecting the landlord to accept the deposit in lieu of the rent. A deposit is not to pay the last month's rent, it's there as a security for the landlord should the tenant damage the house beyond normal wear and tear, or if any bills have been left unpaid.

Which is fine in theory but .....We had to do this to find the money for the new deposit and we left the place fine. Given the length of time it can take to get the deposit back?

ztoical

Hayzooz wrote: »

Realistically (I mean PC bullsh*t aside) it's always the best thing to do. There's no way a landlord will get you out within four weeks, you get to use up your deposit and not be deducted these rubbish charges.

I recommend all tenants to do this.

You cannot lose this way.

Depends on the person and what their situation is. Given the high number of young people leaving Ireland to find work many will need at least one LL reference when they go to rent. Other countries are far more anal about LL references and will check them. Just go as far as the UK and you'd find it hard to rent somewhere decent without either providing a reference or paying several months up front.

Poncke

Finally spoken to the landlord about this. He says I could take it to PRTB, he doesnt care, he will have his lawyers look into it. He doesnt care about the money either, he says. I found his Facebook profile, he owns a couple of horses, big 4 wheel drive and goes on winter sport holidays. Well, I lost the money anyways so I am going to PRTB just for the fun of it. If his lawyer fees exceed the money he owes me, than thats fine with me as well.

Xiney

The Landlord can only retain money for:

- damage (cleaning is NOT damage - frankly even if it was cleaning a carpet would be considered normal wear and tear)
- unpaid rent or bills


Since this is not the case, take him to the PRTB, you'll get your money back... it'll just take a while.

verywell

+1 for Xiney.

LL cannot withhold deposit for cleaning. That is down to general wear and tear. I have had to get carpets cleaned before from muddy shoes etc and it has never cost me over €40 per room and the house that I have it a large detached. He is taking the mick.

Graces7

Xiney wrote: »

The Landlord can only retain money for:

- damage (cleaning is NOT damage - frankly even if it was cleaning a carpet would be considered normal wear and tear)
- unpaid rent or bills


Since this is not the case, take him to the PRTB, you'll get your money back... it'll just take a while.

That is the great issue here of course when so many are struggling.

When we moved in August, we were being threatened with illegal eviction. We went to the PTRB and somehow in the move etc, and illness, we failed to contact them that we had moved.

A couple of weeks ago we had an email saying the hearing was fixed for late November.

As we said when we apologised for not having informed them that we had left, the fixed term lease expired on November 16th.

They replied with a hearing date in early December and never dealt with the point we had made.

Without that we had simply not paid rent that last while, we would not( Disabled pensioners needing rent alliowance) hav been able to pay the new deposit and moving costs.

Now we are still waiting for rent allowance which takes months here and finanicially in great difficulty.

We left the place in good order and left a full written report about the poor condition of the house.

As long as landlords can get away with this, many tenants have no choice really. Many have no resources to fall back on.

It is a choice we were reluctant to make but were at peace about it.

djimi

Poncke wrote: »

Finally spoken to the landlord about this. He says I could take it to PRTB, he doesnt care, he will have his lawyers look into it. He doesnt care about the money either, he says. I found his Facebook profile, he owns a couple of horses, big 4 wheel drive and goes on winter sport holidays. Well, I lost the money anyways so I am going to PRTB just for the fun of it. If his lawyer fees exceed the money he owes me, than thats fine with me as well.

Haha your landlord sounds like a right prat! Sounds like some gob****e who bought a house to rent it out without having the slightest clue what he is at. Hopefully it wont take the PRTB long to tear him and his lawyers a new one.

Osgoodisgood

As has been stated by others the LL cannot withhold money for cleaning. Even if he were morally right to do so (and it doesn't appear to be the case here) he just can't and he'll almost certainly lose a PRTB case and probably get a penalty imposed.

As for not paying the last month's rent, that's not what the deposit is for and you should remember that the very same PRTB take a dim view of tenants taking this route.

Graces7

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

As has been stated by others the LL cannot withhold money for cleaning. Even if he were morally right to do so (and it doesn't appear to be the case here) he just can't and he'll almost certainly lose a PRTB case and probably get a penalty imposed.

As for not paying the last month's rent, that's not what the deposit is for and you should remember that the very same PRTB take a dim view of tenants taking this route.

But in the real world they do and it can take months and a lot of work and hassle to get that money back. Especially for the less well off.

Osgoodisgood

Graces7 wrote: »

But in the real world they do and it can take months and a lot of work and hassle to get that money back.

I agree some do. Some are scheming baxtards who delight in swindling deposit money out of tenants. I also know that some tenants take exactly the same approach to Landlords property, evidenced by our recently departed friend and his milk fetish.

So where does that bring us? In my opinion it illustrates the need for a properly administrated regulatory body with teeth that is impartial and responsive and with power to intervene during the time of the issue/s, not several months later. While we're at it I'd also like to see all deposits held by this regulator so the persecution of the efficient and reasonable landlords can cease. Further to that I'd like to see a database of registered tenants created (just like the landlords) so that any tenant or landlord that has not made good his or her responsibilities from a previous contract are unable to commit to a new one.

Especially for the less well off.

That group includes lots of landlords these days.

ztoical

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

I agree some do. Some are scheming baxtards who delight in swindling deposit money out of tenants. I also know that some tenants take exactly the same approach to Landlords property, evidenced by our recently departed friend and his milk fetish.

So where does that bring us? In my opinion it illustrates the need for a properly administrated regulatory body with teeth that is impartial and responsive and with power to intervene during the time of the issue/s, not several months later. While we're at it I'd also like to see all deposits held by this regulator so the persecution of the efficient and reasonable landlords can cease. Further to that I'd like to see a database of registered tenants created (just like the landlords) so that any tenant or landlord that has not made good his or her responsibilities from a previous contract are unable to commit to a new one.

+ 1 The majority of both LL and tenants fall into the happy middle ground but then you have extreme examples of both. Not saying there aren't LL out there looking to shaft people but by the same token there are people who rent and destroy properties before moving onto the next one as frankly there isn't anything to stop them.

The UK system of having the deposit held by a third party would work well here as both parties have to sign off on it being returned, LL needs to provide detailed proof of deductions which tenant has to ok and LL's can be fined if they don't sort returning it within a set number of days.

Graces7

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

I agree some do. Some are scheming baxtards who delight in swindling deposit money out of tenants. I also know that some tenants take exactly the same approach to Landlords property, evidenced by our recently departed friend and his milk fetish.

So where does that bring us? In my opinion it illustrates the need for a properly administrated regulatory body with teeth that is impartial and responsive and with power to intervene during the time of the issue/s, not several months later. While we're at it I'd also like to see all deposits held by this regulator so the persecution of the efficient and reasonable landlords can cease. Further to that I'd like to see a database of registered tenants created (just like the landlords) so that any tenant or landlord that has not made good his or her responsibilities from a previous contract are unable to commit to a new one.




That group includes lots of landlords these days.

Oh PLEASE!my remark re less well off referred to those living below the poverty level, escpecially those on RA. Never yet met a landlord in that category. They are after all property owners.

Persecution! roflol! REALLY! What a ********

oh, by the way zstoical; cannot reply to any of your posts but you have been on my ignore list this long while.

The_Conductor

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh PLEASE!my remark re less well off referred to those living below the poverty level, escpecially those on RA. Never yet met a landlord in that category. They are after all property owners.

Persecution! roflol! REALLY! What a ********

oh, by the way zstoical; cannot reply to any of your posts but you have been on my ignore list this long while.

Graces7 - if you disagree with another forum user posts- you either refute the post factually without personalising your post, report the post if there is due reason for doing so, or ignore the post.

Whether or not you have another forum member on your ignore list, is a matter of your choosing.

If you intend to continue posting in this forum- please read the forum rules and comply with them.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

Osgoodisgood

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh PLEASE!my remark re less well off referred to those living below the poverty level, escpecially those on RA. Never yet met a landlord in that category. They are after all property owners.

I'm tempted to try to explain the effects of the collapse of the housing market on property and mortgage owners, particularly those that held heavily geared debt prior to the collapse. But I think my time would be wasted. To assume that property owners are wealthy, or even, "well off" is to misunderstand recent macro economics entirely.

Persecution! roflol! REALLY! What a ********

The system of arbitration and reconciliation in respect of the relationship between tenants and landlords (those who behave within both the confines and the spirit of the law) is ludicrously one-sided. The PRTB is a good idea that has just not been given the remit to provide the dynamic impartial service that is required. My comments in an earlier post indicate the sort of power I think it should have. Do you think keeping records of tenants and landlords who habitually break contracts and precluding them from the process in future is a bad idea?

quietsailor

Hayzooz wrote: »

Realistically (I mean PC bullsh*t aside) it's always the best thing to do. There's no way a landlord will get you out within four weeks, you get to use up your deposit and not be deducted these rubbish charges.

I recommend all tenants to do this.

You cannot lose this way.

Oh yes you can!
Try that crap with me mate and I WILL bring you to the PRTB.

I sign up all my tenants to the PRTB as soon as I can, usually before they move in.
I try to keep within all laws and return deposits if the house is kept in a good condition.
I fix anything as soon as I find out about it.

So if someone like you tries that crap of using the deposit as the last months rent and leaving the house damaged its off to the PRTB with you. I've done it already with one set of tenants, I can only imagine their shock :P when I sent them a letter telling them we were taking the arguement to the PRTB, I got that final months rent the next day.

quietsailor

Hayzooz wrote: »

Realistically (I mean PC bullsh*t aside) it's always the best thing to do. There's no way a landlord will get you out within four weeks, you get to use up your deposit and not be deducted these rubbish charges.

I recommend all tenants to do this.

You cannot lose this way.

Poncke wrote: »

Finally spoken to the landlord about this. He says I could take it to PRTB, he doesnt care, he will have his lawyers look into it. He doesnt care about the money either, he says. I found his Facebook profile, he owns a couple of horses, big 4 wheel drive and goes on winter sport holidays. Well, I lost the money anyways so I am going to PRTB just for the fun of it. If his lawyer fees exceed the money he owes me, than thats fine with me as well.

Go for it Poncke, I'm a LL as well and I'm sick of people like him who get the rest of us a bad name. As a result of that you have people like hayzooz above ( I don't think I can write my opinion of him on here without getting banned )who reckon its ok to break the law. I want everyone, LLs and tenants to start toeing the line so I reckon"report them all and let the PRTB sort 'em out" (bad paraphrasing there isn't it )