Class Discipline

Sardonicat

The more I read this thread, the more terrified I become. Teachers aren't even being Garda vetted? Do you not get vetted before you go out on placement during the H Dip/PGDE? Student Nurses need to be vetted before they can go on the wards (this was the case in 2002, anyway), so I always asumed it would be the same for any type of training for professionals that required garda clearance. Unless you need to get clearance subsequent to qualifying also?

Naive or not for not being aware that non-qualified, non-interviewed, non-vetted relatives of teaching staff can walk into a classroom, I still think it is outrageous.

This thread has certainly been an education for me!

delta_bravo

All pgde students ARE Garda vetted

Dionysus

peanuthead wrote: »

This is my first year teaching qualified, but my fifth year in total and I kid you not when I say that this is also my first year being garda vetted.

I even brought it to the attention of my last employer that I was not garda vetted and he told me I would be fine.

Same here. It was only when starting the PGDE that I was Garda vetted. I also had to produce my Garda vetting when I started work at the end of August 2010. Prior to that, principals were just delighted that I could turn up when they needed me. Although one day I brought kids to a swimming pool and the more established girl next to me asked me was I vetted. I thought it was an odd question and then realised it was probably because I took out my phone (which has a camera that I had forgotten about) to text somebody while sitting in the visitors'/viewing area. Not a nice feeling so needless to say I never took the phone out again.

Anyway, the current system for employing subs is seriously lax!

Dionysus

Fuinseog wrote: »

you cannot put a child out of the classroom. the gurrier has rights and they are well versed in them.

hehe. Too True.

midlandsmissus

"She couldn't get anyone else to fill in that week". Really? Or she wanted to get her out of work daughter a bit of work? Come on.


As a previous poster said, is this even legal? There is a huge conflict of interest here, as a parent will desire to give employment to her child over all other candidates. It should be somebody with impartiality to all candidates that does the hiring of subs.

Nepotism is unbelievably rife in schools.

peanuthead

delta_bravo wrote: »

All pgde students ARE Garda vetted

Yeah, sorry I stand corrected, this is my second year being vetted. I was vetted for the Dip but I worked for 3 years before that without any

barleybooley

superdooper wrote: »

First of all, Ill start by saying Im not making personal digs at you. I do find the system insane and have NQT friends who cant get any work at the moment. They are under the impression that people with pull and connections are getting the subbing in a lot of cases and you are an example here.

Not much I can do about this, I'm a partially employed graduate who's entitled to no money from the state, leaving me to sponge off my parents for another while. Now, that's hardly fair either is it? Did your NQT friends check their voicemail for messages left looking for a substitute for History and Geography last week? No?

superdooper wrote: »

This quote worries me and should worry you. Its a very naive thing to post on a forum. How many vice principals children are subbing in Mayo (if thats where the school is) and having difficulty?

No, I know exactly the implications of saying that on the net but it doesn't bother me too much.

superdooper wrote: »

Working in a pub is a perfectly valid job. My point is that students and parents could know you from the pub. They therefore have a good idea that you are not a teacher (although Im sure many of the out of work NQTs are working in other jobs) and will find it hard to respect you as a teacher. When we all read about serious job shortages for teachers, how can you expect parents and children to respect you in a school? Cases like yours highlight the major problems in the system.

Unlikely. Parents aren't in the classroom anyway and it's not like I go in saying "I'm a recent graduate and I have zero qualifications, respect me.".

superdooper wrote: »

Having a degree does not make you a teacher or a PGDE. PGDE students are Garda vetted. I would imagine you (or other unqualified subs) are not. They are also training, have cooperating teachers and supervised visits. They are trainee teachers and have been accepted onto a course as such. You are a person with a degree. This should not allow you into a school in the capacity of a teacher or supervisor.

Gosh, you really have it in for me, don't you? No, I am not Garda vetted but I'm also not working there full time. I haven't fooled myself into thinking I'm a teacher so please give over. I came on here looking for advice, not to be slated. So please don't post unless it's constructive.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

"She couldn't get anyone else to fill in that week". Really? Or she wanted to get her out of work daughter a bit of work? Come on.

As a previous poster said, is this even legal? There is a huge conflict of interest here, as a parent will desire to give employment to her child over all other candidates. It should be somebody with impartiality to all candidates that does the hiring of subs.

Nepotism is unbelievably rife in schools.

Yes, I was in her office when she was trying to get through to people, not one person got back to her. Not one. I can't help that, can I? And seeing as I know the Principal and VP very well, I think they could tell more about me from me being a student in the school and and their perception of me on a personal level.

To everyone that gave me advice, a massive thank you. As for the rest of you, please don't post unless it's helpful, I do believe it's against the rules. Also, get over yerselves, I haven't been given a permanent contract or anything so relax.

starre

edit - can see you're in Mayo.

Kohl

Fuinseog wrote: »

you cannot put a child out of the classroom. the gurrier has rights and they are well versed in them.

Are you 100% sure about that? I saw it happening a few times when I was in school. Maybe things have changed since the late 90's. hmmmm.

peanuthead

Kohl wrote: »

Are you 100% sure about that? I saw it happening a few times when I was in school. Maybe things have changed since the late 90's. hmmmm.

It is against health and safety protocol really.

You are responsible for the health and safety of your students while you are in the room with them. You are not supposed to let them leave the room at all really as if something happens to them while outside the room you are the one who will be held accountable for it.

Just like you are not supposed to leave the room with them in it.


However, from the point of view of competence alone - I am very much anti- putting a child outside my classroom. IMO you are giving a very clear message that you cannot deal with this student. And often times you are giving them exactly what they want - a chance to get out of the room and go for a wander around the school.

Fuinseog

Kohl wrote: »

Are you 100% sure about that? I saw it happening a few times when I was in school. Maybe things have changed since the late 90's. hmmmm.

things have changed and teachers still send them out. otherwise they would get no work done.
the dept says what the dept says, but they are not on the ground and have no practical solutions to any problems.

Fizzical

Fuinseog wrote: »

things have changed and teachers still send them out. otherwise they would get no work done.
the dept says what the dept says, but they are not on the ground and have no practical solutions to any problems.

Far simpler to have an agreement with another teacher and send them in there.

Fuinseog

Fizzical wrote: »

Far simpler to have an agreement with another teacher and send them in there.

works sometimes, hard though if the kid is ADD or what not. we have made education accessible to all, though some kids are not suited for mainstream classes.

evolving_doors

Fuinseog wrote: »

works sometimes, hard though if the kid is ADD or what not. we have made education accessible to all, though some kids are not suited for mainstream classes.

What type of students are not suited for mainstream?

Anyway, it seems that for the OP exclusion is not an option she's willing to take, otherwise she would have done it earlier.. probably at this stage of the game she'd have to send half the class out...

Fuinseog

Armelodie wrote: »

What type of students are not suited for mainstream?

Anyway, it seems that for the OP exclusion is not an option she's willing to take, otherwise she would have done it earlier.. probably at this stage of the game she'd have to send half the class out...

it may not be PC to say so, but if a pupil is taking all the teachers attention away from the rest of the class through their antics then they should not be in the class. we have replaced the interest of the majority with the interests of the individual.

personally if I were supervising a class and if a large number of pupils were unruly i would walk out and get the school management or a senior teacher. its too dangerous to remain in the class otherwise.

spurious

In our school, if someone is stopping the others from learning, or stopping the teacher from doing their work, they are sent home, to return with a parent.

If they continue, the parent will be asked to sit outside the classroom door, ready to be called into the classroom when their little darling tries their nonsense again. It generally takes only a couple of classes.

If the parent refuses, they can take their little darling home until they teach him how to behave like the other kids' parents have managed to. Zero tolerance of their nonsense and they (kids and parents) soon get the message.

delta_bravo

spurious wrote: »

In our school, if someone is stopping the others from learning, or stopping the teacher from doing their work, they are sent home, to return with a parent.

If they continue, the parent will be asked to sit outside the classroom door, ready to be called into the classroom when their little darling tries their nonsense again. It generally takes only a couple of classes.

If the parent refuses, they can take their little darling home until they teach him how to behave like the other kids' parents have managed to. Zero tolerance of their nonsense and they (kids and parents) soon get the message.

That sounds good. out of interest do the child and parent usually return?
I can only imagine how mortified they would be to have their mammy or daddy outside

Fuinseog

i love it, but very few principals are willing to do this.

amacca

Fuinseog wrote: »

i love it, but very few principals are willing to do this.

speaking as a former teacher..I think they should be and I think they should be prepared to do it early and often should the need arise.

hearing what goes on from the gf and remembering my own time (not that long ago at all) it does seem that the needs of the individual (troublesome - and not really the needs that will be beneficial to them long term) have been allowed supersede the needs of the majority to receive an uninterrupted education.

And if they are not willing because of not wanting to alienate parents/draw down their ire etc it should be put down as policy and taken out of their hands so they can do it on a "my hands are tied - the department/law/policy dictates etc" basis

sounds to me like a very effective solution to the majority of persistent misbehavior in classrooms that cant be gotten around by the usual means.

imo there are some things the teacher just cant solve especially given how their hands are increasingly tied (no bad thing in itself but some outside support for increasing bad behaviour in classrooms is needed imo)

Fuinseog

amacca wrote: »

speaking as a former teacher..I think they should be and I think they should be prepared to do it early and often should the need arise.

hearing what goes on from the gf and remembering my own time (not that long ago at all) it does seem that the needs of the individual (troublesome - and not really the needs that will be beneficial to them long term) have been allowed supersede the needs of the majority to receive an uninterrupted education.

And if they are not willing because of not wanting to alienate parents/draw down their ire etc it should be put down as policy and taken out of their hands so they can do it on a "my hands are tied - the department/law/policy dictates etc" basis

sounds to me like a very effective solution to the majority of persistent misbehavior in classrooms that cant be gotten around by the usual means.

imo there are some things the teacher just cant solve especially given how their hands are increasingly tied (no bad thing in itself but some outside support for increasing bad behaviour in classrooms is needed imo)

they should be, but they are not. the last thing a principal wants is agro from parents especially over a 'personality clash' (where the pupil is unruly but tells a different tale at home).

guidelines from the department of ed regarding discipline are unrealistic to a laughable extent. they do not want to know, the principal does not want to know and the teacher can sink or swim.

amacca

Fuinseog wrote: »

they should be, but they are not. the last thing a principal wants is agro from parents especially over a 'personality clash' (where the pupil is unruly but tells a different tale at home).

yup, that's about the size of it. That sort of weakness, desire to brush things under the carpet is what leads to a lot of the persistent minor discipline problems imo...but maybe I'm being unrealistic

the phrase "personality clash" was usually used when certain pupils refused to behave, do homework, stop talking, stop disrupting others and then got into a tantrum when said teacher insisted they behave themselves and stop disrupting others it then became a "personality clash"

on the rare occasion I had it, I used to run with it and say that yes, it is a personality clash

eg:

your child's personality is that of a spoilt, uninterested, lazy, immature teenager and while this is not all that uncommon or unusual this is not an environment where it can (but is in a lot of cases it seems) be tolerated as their are many more who do not have such a personality and want to be allowed do their work in a reltively calm, ordered environment (not necessarily devoid of enjoyment or spontaneity mind) and therefore they should learn to modify these parts of their personality so they can function in the real world. If thats not possible then perhaps they require the kind of help we cannot offer here and are not really qualified to in any event.

the vast majority of this small minority generally toe the line when confronted with immediate effective intervention in my experience and its an awful pity for themselves as well as everyone else they don't meet it sooner in life

Fuinseog wrote: »

guidelines from the department of ed regarding discipline are unrealistic to a laughable extent. they do not want to know, the principal does not want to know and the teacher can sink or swim.

true...and such a pity. A lot of people have an unnecessarily difficult environment to work in because of this and a lot of reasonable decent students miss out on so much because the teacher is left to implement either bribery or crowd control just to get 10 minutes of a 40 minute class where any useful work is done....this being a best case scenario in some cases

I for one think it is time it was tackled along with anti-social behaviour etc but I'm not holding my breath

implausible

spurious wrote: »

In our school, if someone is stopping the others from learning, or stopping the teacher from doing their work, they are sent home, to return with a parent.

If they continue, the parent will be asked to sit outside the classroom door, ready to be called into the classroom when their little darling tries their nonsense again. It generally takes only a couple of classes.

Good idea Spurious and one which was suggested in our place, but there was war over it! Basically, teachers were uneasy about the idea of parents wandering around the school and Garda vetting came up too. (Was this an issue in your school?) Mind you, this may be due to the fact that we've have issues in the past with parents coming in 'unannounced' and tackling teachers.

amacca

deemark wrote: »

Good idea Spurious and one which was suggested in our place, but there was war over it! Basically, teachers were uneasy about the idea of parents wandering around the school and Garda vetting came up too. (Was this an issue in your school?) Mind you, this may be due to the fact that we've have issues in the past with parents coming in 'unannounced' and tackling teachers.

and there's the other side of it.....sometimes the "parents" are much worse than the students.......

it used to amaze me how sensible and well behaved etc some of my students were given the behaviour of some of the parents.

presume there would be an issue with parents on school premises but nevertheless teachers shouldn't be isolated to deal with some issues on their own and persistent minor misbehaviour should be met with zero tolerance in some form imo

spurious

I actually feel a bit sorry for the parents I see sitting outside the door. Often they have done their best with in many cases limited support or parenting skills. We rarely have to get them up more than once and if they won't come up then maybe we need to look at alternative educational arrangements for their child.

Whatever about the effect on the 'character' that has caused his mother to come in, the effect on the other kids who might be considering 'having a laugh' is great. In our school, it's not the Principal/Deputy Principal/Year Head that makes the parents come up about a child, it's the child who makes their parent come up.

We didn't have any issue with Garda vetting and no parent was wandering in the school. We have a close relationship with our local station and we call them regularly if parents become abusive to staff. Parents are well aware we WILL pursue them if they step out of line.

As far as our Principal is concerned, our staff do not come to work to be abused by students or parents and the slightest sign of abuse and the student or parent is removed from the premises. If we have to speak to a parent through the school railings, then that is their choice.

The line has to be drawn somewhere.

gaeilgegrinds1

I had a meeting with a parent last week. I'm her child's tutor. There were a few others present too. Initially I felt sorry for her to be honest. He's a nightmare. Cheeky, abusive, steals, lies etc. And he DOES know better. Until I heard about her parenting. They talk about things, or at least she does, he listens or tunes out. She does not believe in punishment. He breaks something, does not have to see it right. He takes something, does not have to put it back. The list goes on.
That said, I asked her three times for the meeting. First time she forgot. Second time she was tired and stayed in bed. And she told us all this. It's not easy freeing up the principal, me and the others that were there. Does she care about that? No apology, nothing.
She's very well educated, money not a problem but she seems to have no reality when it comes to discipline. She says it is a nasty word. But now she wonders why he is unruly? Hmm...let me think! So I really think, the parents are often, not always, the root of the problem.

Fuinseog

very often kids dictate to their parents, who in turn dictate to the school. everyone has an opinion on education today.

helicopter parents are a wonder to behold. on the other end of the scale disinterested parents will only appear if it is to complain about you, the teacher.

given that we are living in post celtic tiger Ireland I wonder if this will be reflected in education?

i think part of the problem is also what we are teaching them is of no relevance. kids do not read books or watch a movie that is remotely educational. why should they? they will get what they want without having to work for it.

why should they respect a teacher when they are told by their parents and society as a whole that teachers are a bunch of wasters who only work 22 hours.

Fuinseog

just came across this in the indo. although the paper is anti teacher it churns out some interesting articles on occasion.


By E Grade
Wednesday December 01 2010
This year's first parents' night has just passed off without incident, which is a bad thing. What is the point if nobody actually says anything that will make a difference?

I've seen the odd parent, sweating in their overcoat, twitching and shifting in their chair as Mr Prince goes through a litany of offences committed so far this term, but even he knows that after a week or so, Kylie will be back to her old nasty self in class again.

The problem is that schools have become as banal and toothless as the rest of the nation's institutions. It's all Nescafe and digestives when it should be fire and brimstone.

First of all, we should take the initiative in setting the tone by playing the right music from speakers placed on the front of the building so that we set the scene as they arrive at the school. Just one song will do the trick -- the Manic Street Preachers' 'If you tolerate this, your children will be next'. Play it over and over so that they get the message.

Some schools allow parents to bring the child in question with them and some of them will bring the whole brood with them -- this must be stopped.

Teachers are there to read the riot act to the complacent and get revenge, not broker deals. A parent should return from a meeting seething and hell-bent on clearing the family name.

Parents with a score to settle -- because Ciaran didn't get an A in his Junior Cert or Sarah said you never gave back that assignment in September -- need to be reminded who is the expert here and who is the attention seeker.

Once they're in, every teacher must be determined not to waste this golden opportunity to confront these people with their child's evil-doing.

Make sure tea is served by the worst example of a filthy down-and-out alcoholic bum to have left the school, so that parents who tell their kids that they don't need French/Irish/religion/CSPE/ whatever can have a chat with him and he can tell them how he wished he had worked in school. If you can't find one, employ an actor.

If they start pontificating about your teaching style or some incident in class, tell them with your best concerned face that: "Mrs O'Brien, if you believe everything your kid tells you about school, then I'll have to start believing everything he tells me about home . . ."

If you're in that kind of school, you might want to point out to Mrs O'Thugarty that having six children by six different fathers is generally a bad idea. Have you tried contraception?

On the other hand, Mrs Courtauld, it's great that your make-up is impeccable, your hair is magnificent and that dress is sensational -- and all after a busy day at the office, but why does your Fintan never have a coat or a book or even a clean face?

Still, at least these are the ones who actually bother to turn up.

- E Grade

Irish Independent

amacca

Fuinseog wrote: »

you might want to point out to Mrs O'Thugarty that having six children by six different fathers is generally a bad idea. Have you tried contraception?

:rolleyes: Aah I remember little Thuggy McThugerton like it was yesterday.

But that's what happens when PC takes hold. Why would anyone step out on a limb (in relation to the unacceptability of their childs behaviour not their lifestyle choices) and really go for it when they will receive no real back up from the system or possibly even their management.

much easier to whisper sweet nothings (platitudes) in their ears....you'll get more thanks in the long run


and ultimately the below is so very true about P/T meetings

Fuinseog wrote: »

Mr Prince goes through a litany of offences committed so far this term, but even he knows that after a week or so, Kylie will be back to her old nasty self in class again.

because to a certain extent the below is also true

Fuinseog wrote: »

The problem is that schools have become as banal and toothless as the rest of the nation's institutions.

remove the power to impose speedy sanctions that cause discomfort and expect to be disrespected.

and of course in general the worst offenders parents dont bother showing up at all.

Fuinseog

the sex abuse scandals, the unknown knowns, that overwhelmed us recently, really put the spanner in the works.
never again would we doubt the word of a child.
up until then a teachers word would be believed over a pupils. Now it is completely the other way around and I am not sure if it is healthy to empower a child to the extent we have done so.

uriah

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

It is legal. Why would it be illegal?

This unqualified person is in charge of students.
Is s/he garda vetted?

S/he has no idea how to manaage a class. What if someone is injured/takes off without permission/is treated in an unacceptable manner by the 'teacher'or another student?

I wouldn't want to be the principal or BOM member in that school.
I wouldn't want to be a student there either.