Protest March 27/11/2010

OPENROAD

geespot wrote: »

does anybody think that the protest tomoro is going to make a difference all the parties that or likely to make up the next goverment or going to do what the e.u make them if ihad my way we wouldnt pay the debt we would pull out of eu and euro and hope for the best as i would rather be broke and able to make or own decisions but that aint going to happen unless everybody vates for sinn fein and that aint going to happen i will be working tomoro not freezing my nuts off on the streets in dublin

I can kind of see where you are coming from, people do seem to think things will be different with another party, but have you heard many say that the Dail is too expensive to run, slaraies etc... in comparison to major Economical countries unlike our own

Fluorescence

geespot wrote: »

does anybody think that the protest tomoro is going to make a difference all the parties that or likely to make up the next goverment or going to do what the e.u make them if ihad my way we wouldnt pay the debt we would pull out of eu and euro and hope for the best as i would rather be broke and able to make or own decisions but that aint going to happen unless everybody vates for sinn fein and that aint going to happen i will be working tomoro not freezing my nuts off on the streets in dublin

Firstly, it'd be swell if you could use full words and full stops. Thanks.

Secondly, the more noise we make the better chance there is that some TDs who are currently on the fence will sit up and vote no confidence in the current government. This is pretty much the only chance we have to renege on the guarantee to the banks and ask the IMF to leave, because the people in power right now are too stubborn to see this as an option.

Lastly, Sinn Féin are making a whole lot of noise but do very little to back up their claims. They won't do what we need to do to put this country on the road to recovery. Unfortunately I can see a lot of people voting for them in the weeks to come.

Noreen1

OPENROAD wrote: »

I take your overall point, but if they wanted to vote they could have done.

Sigh! Yet again. No, they could not!

My son travelled from Dublin to register for a postal vote. My daughter travelled from Galway.

Neither managed to register for a postal vote, because FF had their selection "Cumann" meeting that weekend, hence the guards were on traffic duty/security duty - and were not available to stamp the applications within the required time frame.

Coincidence? I honestly doubt it!

Consider a "leak" that some backbenchers will refuse to vote in favour of the budget. That's the OAP protest vote taken care of.
If the students are also prevented from voting? Well, sure, weren't they the ungrateful shower, anyway:rolleyes:

Would you care to elaborate on how 50% of the electorate in my household could have availed of their right to a vote in these circumstances?:mad:

Noreen

geespot

f.g and lab or fianna fail it makes no difference only the small print we will still have to kiss e.u imf asses. sinn fein havent done anything because they havent got the numbers and they or in opisition

squod

geespot wrote: »

f.g and lab or fianna fail it makes no difference only the small print we will still have to kiss e.u imf asses. sinn fein havent done anything because they havent got the numbers and they or in opisition

Which is why we're calling for a general election before the budget.

OPENROAD

Noreen1 wrote: »

Sigh! Yet again. No, they could not!

My son travelled from Dublin to register for a postal vote. My daughter travelled from Galway.

Neither managed to register for a postal vote, because FF had their selection "Cumann" meeting that weekend, hence the guards were on traffic duty/security duty - and were not available to stamp the applications within the required time frame.

Coincidence? I honestly doubt it!

Consider a "leak" that some backbenchers will refuse to vote in favour of the budget. That's the OAP protest vote taken care of.
If the students are also prevented from voting? Well, sure, weren't they the ungrateful shower, anyway:rolleyes:

Would you care to elaborate on how 50% of the electorate in my household could have availed of their right to a vote in these circumstances?:mad:

Noreen

I'm not trying to be smart here Noreen, genuine question I assume they are registered to vote, i.e. at the polling station, so why couldn't they have got a bus/train in a day and voted, as I said genuine question I do agree that elections should be held on a Saturday, but when you see people in some countries travel for days to vote. As for taking a day off college, well how many of us did just that when we were too hungover to go in.

Cheap Thrills!

geespot wrote: »

does anybody think that the protest tomoro is going to make a difference

That's a cop-out. It's the exact attitude that allows the likes of FF and their greedy banking chums to p!ss all over us. No-one says it's going to be easy. This is not the perfect opportunity (never thought I'd see the day I'd justify marching alongside these unions) but life is not neat and tidy. It doesn't work like that.

Time is ticking, every day that passes we just get deeper into the mire. Financial pain can not be averted, one way or the other. Whether we sign or default we are deep in the sh!t.

But it's not our sh!t, and we just want to make it known this Govermnent has no mandate. It'll make a difference to me to feel I'm trying to protest for my democratic voice.

FF have been very high-handed and that has disgusted me. They've lied and manipulated the voters to hang on to power at all costs. They've become something close to a dictatorship and I intend to protest about that.

Noreen1

OPENROAD wrote: »

Why couldn't they do it in one day, have never been to that part of the country but do they not have a train/bus service.

I do take your point and am shocked that FF have got second but sadly I am slowly starting to give up on this country to be honest

A train? In Donegal? Good God, no! Sure we're far too backward up here to deserve any such "modern" conveniences!:rolleyes:
Seriously, there are no trains in Donegal!!:(

There is a private bus service. It's a 5 hour journey each way = 10 hours travelling.
At any other time, the students might have considered it. But in the run up to Christmas exams? (Starting next week!) That's hardly a reasonable expectation TBH.

By the way, FF came third on the final count, not second! Cold comfort, but, hey, every little helps!:D:D

Noreen

Fluorescence

geespot wrote: »

f.g and lab or fianna fail it makes no difference only the small print we will still have to kiss e.u imf asses.

Boards needs an exasperated emoticon :pac:

We don't need to kiss EU arse - in fact they should be kissing ours right now, trying to get us to accept the bailout, but the government's too thick to play those games well (which would at least make the fact that they're dooming us all before quitting Leinster House a little less bitter). We don't even need IMF money - all it will do is put an already failing economy on life support until it eventually dies (which it will). There's no point racking up more debt when we're just going to have to default on it anyway later down the line. Better to have a clean break now.

OPENROAD

Noreen1 wrote: »

A train? In Donegal? Good God, no! Sure we're far too backward up here to deserve any such "modern" conveniences!:rolleyes:
Seriously, there are no trains in Donegal!!:(

There is a private bus service. It's a 5 hour journey each way = 10 hours travelling.
At any other time, the students might have considered it. But in the run up to Christmas exams? (Starting next week!) That's hardly a reasonable expectation TBH.

By the way, FF came third on the final count, not second! Cold comfort, but, hey, every little helps!:D:D

Noreen

Blimey :eek: genuinely did not know that, makes me despair even more about this country, seriously, no trains?? A huge tourist attraction like Donegal and no trains, Jesus wept.

Tsudun

How would people react to a riot? I'd personally prefer it not to have to come to that, but in reality, it's very likely, and the Irish people seem to be torn here, some saying that a riot does no good, and closes doors, and the government don't take rioters seriously, while others say that a peaceful protest is no good any more, because the government doesn't feel threatened by the people if they show no sign of strength?
It's absolutely sure that the government needs to feel threatened by us tomorrow, but can that be achieved through peaceful means? How long can you shout at a brick wall, before the only solution is to tear the wall down?

Cheap Thrills!

If I see one hint of a 'riot' or violence then I will be turning on my heel and heading home.

If any factions inciting 'riot' or violence thinks the vast majority of the public are with them on that then they have badly misread us.

There will be children there tomorrow. This march is about peaceful protest.

I don't know how you can say peaceful protest does not work, we have hardly ever yet tried it here in any numbers. Bar the pensioners and that worked a treat actually thinking about it.

h2pogo

Tsudun wrote: »

How would people react to a riot? I'd personally prefer it not to have to come to that, but in reality, it's very likely, and the Irish people seem to be torn here, some saying that a riot does no good, and closes doors, and the government don't take rioters seriously, while others say that a peaceful protest is no good any more, because the government doesn't feel threatened by the people if they show no sign of strength?
It's absolutely sure that the government needs to feel threatened by us tomorrow, but can that be achieved through peaceful means? How long can you shout at a brick wall, before the only solution is to tear the wall down?

Violence wont work..It will cause a divide and bad feelings.

peaceful non cooperation and civil disobedience is the only way..

occupation blockading of government buildings as an example..

Tsudun

I didn't say it doesn't work, I said personally I don't want things to turn violent tomorrow, for those reasons, but it is a possibility, and I think it would be good to get an all round view on the situation. Of course it should be peaceful, but there are those who will argue that to reform a country, which I think is what we need now, you have to tear it apart. I'm somewhere in between, I'd like to tear the country's system apart in a more peaceful way, but I'm afraid that is not the general accepted way these days (look at Greece and France).

h2pogo

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

If I see one hint of a 'riot' or violence then I will be turning on my heel and heading home.

If any factions inciting 'riot' or violence thinks the vast majority of the public are with them on that then they have badly misread us.

There will be children there tomorrow. This march is about peaceful protest.

I don't know how you can say peaceful protest does not work, we have hardly ever yet tried it here in any numbers. Bar the pensioners and that worked a treat actually thinking about it.

There is bound to be agent provocateurs as there are at all important marches..
Jim Corr makes some good suggestions in this vid on hoe to deal with them..
I hope these provocateurs don't put people off that is exactly what they want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ing8xH3Qj-k&feature=aso

TheReverend

Exam on monday, will be spending weekend going over stuff for it.
Good luck to all who go

starbelgrade

h2pogo wrote: »

There is bound to be agent provocateurs as there are at all important marches..
Jim Corr makes some good suggestions in this vid on hoe to deal with them..
I hope these provocateurs don't put people off that is exactly what they want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ing8xH3Qj-k&feature=aso

Hi.

My name is Jim Corr.

Fellow people of Ireland, I am insaaaaaaaaaaane!

Krusader

starbelgrade wrote: »

Hi.

My name is Jim Corr.

Fellow people of Ireland, I am insaaaaaaaaaaane!

At least he has the balls to stand up for what he believes in, unlike some :rolleyes:

Tsudun

So maybe not violence, but let's say people decide to, for the sake of mass inconvenience decide to stand at the gates of the Dáil, and refuse to move at all. Then the Gardaí turn hostile when the "official protest" is over, and thousands of people stand their ground. The Gardaí then unleash the riot squads and the Cavalry. What then? It's not a protest if it has an "end time". The end time should be when things change, and when a compromise is reached. Then another fence, this government is a corrupt right wing capitalist government, that does not do agreements. My point is, a peaceful 4 hour march is uneffective. Can we reach a compromise of more radical than the comfortable option for the Elite, but less radical than absolute anarchy? And where is that line?

Wibbs

fluorescence wrote: »

Boards needs an exasperated emoticon :pac:

We don't need to kiss EU arse - in fact they should be kissing ours right now, trying to get us to accept the bailout, but the government's too thick to play those games well (which would at least make the fact that they're dooming us all before quitting Leinster House a little less bitter). We don't even need IMF money - all it will do is put an already failing economy on life support until it eventually dies (which it will). There's no point racking up more debt when we're just going to have to default on it anyway later down the line. Better to have a clean break now.

That's one of the first things I agree with you on. We didnt need the bailout. Not yet. We had enough cash until we needed to go to the market next year. Our overall debt is another thing entirely. So why the bailout rushed at us? Now everyone is blaming the Gov for changing their tune every couple of days. Yes they're muppets, but you could also look at this another way.

Merkel and her chums needed us to take the bailout before all the other bigger dominoes fell(portugal, spain, now Belgium seems in trouble. Wait until Italy starts to bite, though I'd keep an eye on Holland too). Hence her "slip of the tongue" that spread a bit of the oul panic our way.

This forced our gov to go along with the bailout to protect larger EU interests. Hence our ministers appearing to be changing their tune by the hour. Maybe they weren't. Maybe they were in earnest each time until Brussels(more Bonn) started to put pressure on them behind the scenes. Do I still blame them? Hell yes. 1 for getting us into this guff along with others(some ye'll be marching behind tomorrow) and 2, not having the balls to face them down.

In a very real way the Eurozone needed us to stabilise the markets and I can see the logic, but that gives us more leverage. Then again maybe those same muppets actually exercised that leverage, because unlike the Greeks we have far fewer conditions on our bailout plans. Among other things, the Greeks are tied into a quarterly audit before more money is transferred. We don't have that. IMHO when history is written we may discover more went on behind the scenes than we know currently.

Regardless we're looking at history as we speak.

h2pogo

starbelgrade wrote: »

Hi.

My name is Jim Corr.

Fellow people of Ireland, I am insaaaaaaaaaaane!

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

h2pogo

Tsudun wrote: »

So maybe not violence, but let's say people decide to, for the sake of mass inconvenience decide to stand at the gates of the Dáil, and refuse to move at all. Then the Gardaí turn hostile when the "official protest" is over, and thousands of people stand their ground. The Gardaí then unleash the riot squads and the Cavalry. What then? It's not a protest if it has an "end time". The end time should be when things change, and when a compromise is reached. Then another fence, this government is a corrupt right wing capitalist government, that does not do agreements. My point is, a peaceful 4 hour march is uneffective. Can we reach a compromise of more radical than the comfortable option for the Elite, but less radical than absolute anarchy? And where is that line?

What you suggest by not moving after the march is what Gandhi did..it worked..people have to stay peaceful..take a beating and not resist thus exposing who is really violent thus gaining support..

Wibbs

h2pogo wrote: »

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

True though oul Art failed to mention that first stage is usually justified. Even so I have to hand it to Jim Corr he is out there and I always have an affection for such. Too many are beige drones following the leader types.

hobochris

I will have no part in anything organized by unions.

They are as much of the problem in this country as the government is.

Biffo and co + the unions need to be taken out back and put out of our misery.

Marching with the unions will not achieve anything.

Fluorescence

Wibbs wrote: »

Merkel and her chums needed us to take the bailout before all the other bigger dominoes fell(portugal, spain, now Belgium seems in trouble. Wait until Italy starts to bite, though I'd keep an eye on Holland too). Hence her "slip of the tongue" that spread a bit of the oul panic our way.

Absolutely. The Euro zone is depending on us now for the stability of the Euro, but sadly the Euro is going to go sooner or later. Spain is simply too deep in the shítter to turn things around now.

But I'll still argue that we don't need the bailout at all. If we were to default on the bank guarantee and let the country fall to ruin, we could find some new blood comes to the fore and builds this country entirely from scratch. A lot of what current parties are talking about is putting band-aids onto systems that simply don't work for us anymore. That said if we do get stuck with this crippling debt I still think FG/Lab coalition will do a decent job.

en.r4cart

In a foreigner's opinion, Irish government is so kind to Irish people, and Irish people get so much from government.

OPENROAD

fluorescence wrote: »

Absolutely. The Euro zone is depending on us now for the stability of the Euro, but sadly the Euro is going to go sooner or later. Spain is simply too deep in the shítter to turn things around now.

But I'll still argue that we don't need the bailout at all. If we were to default on the bank guarantee and let the country fall to ruin, we could find some new blood comes to the fore and builds this country entirely from scratch. A lot of what current parties are talking about is putting band-aids onto systems that simply don't work for us anymore. That said if we do get stuck with this crippling debt I still think FG/Lab coalition will do a decent job.

Talking of the Euro, how do people feel about the whole Euro thing now?

Wibbs

h2pogo wrote: »

What you suggest by not moving after the march is what Gandhi did..it worked..people have to stay peaceful..take a beating and not resist thus exposing who is really violent thus gaining support..

Yep but Gandhi did most damage by hitting those who sought to oppress him in the pocket. Not by the usual fcukwit anarchist breaking shop windows type. They're just morons who like seeing things burn. Gandhi knew the difference. You want to make a difference? Then do something small but widespread. Something like a majority refuse to pay, I dunno, bin charges. Just stop. Let it pile up. It's the winter so it wont smell so much. Start a collective fund to cover the legal costs of those who get prosecuted. If even 60% did that it would send a very clear message that the people want change. Far more than any 10 or 20,000 marching up to the GPO.

Then of course the people would need to decide who they wanted to make that change. If it's the union muppets count me out and count out anyone with the ability to oppose their thumbs and chew gum at the same time. That's when it gets hard. It's grand now when people are just angry and need an outlet, but get back to us all when an actual plan is mooted.

Fluorescence

I was always in two minds about getting closer to Europe. When Lisbon first rolled round (before I could vote) I was dead-set against it. When Pt II came out I voted Yes after much to-ing and fro-ing about it. I thought, amongst other things of course, that we would have a better chance of a stable future if we closer to the heart of Europe.

Tsudun

And people should do it tomorrow. But will they? Nah, because deep down they're scared. After 3.30, then their armour is down. If only the whole group would keep marching, march right up to the Dáil, and stand all night if that's what it takes...