Protest March 27/11/2010

Wibbs

fluorescence wrote: »

Absolutely. The Euro zone is depending on us now for the stability of the Euro, but sadly the Euro is going to go sooner or later. Spain is simply too deep in the shítter to turn things around now.

That's very possible. Though we could all as Europeans get through that. Maybe take it on the chin and devalue the Euro. The yanks did it under Bush(one of the few cogent things he did), the Chinese have done the same. Indeed freeze out the chinese with tariffs etc. Look to ourselves and the US to build our crap(and places like Brazil and African nations with good leaders). Why is your PC and phone and all the rest Chinese? The vast majority of the tech was invented and created in Europe and the US. Create an atlantic economic alliance. Freeze out the east and the middle east. Meh I'm back from the pub so the drink is talking

But I'll still argue that we don't need the bailout at all. If we were to default on the bank guarantee and let the country fall to ruin, we could find some new blood comes to the fore and builds this country entirely from scratch.

Yep great in theory. But there is a problem. You're talking about an end result, years after we've defaulted, maybe dropped the Euro and all that. Great, but between that idea and this moment? That's an abyss of hurt. If you think it's looking bad now? Then if we do that, then watch rampant inflation, a static economy, overseas companies leaving in droves. We could well be back to wheelbarrows of currency to but a pint of milk. OK that's worst case scenario, but best case isn't much better.

OPENROAD wrote: »

Talking of the Euro, how do people feel about the whole Euro thing now?

Well myself I've always been pro European. Hell I've ridden my way around a fair cross section of EU nations and got an education with it. I liked the EEC. The EC the same, The EU? yea that's where I started to have issues. I voted against Maastricht back in the day. Saw not any issue with control(though I do have issues there with teh EU, specifically the unelected commission), but more about how the hell this could possibly work. Its hard enough to make a currency work in a small culturally similar nation(there will always be areas that will need more funds and won't get it. Compare Ballygobackwards with Blackrock). To make it work across very different nations, with very different needs? Eh pipedream lads. A small bunch will end up on top, a large bunch will be in the middle and a small bunch will bend over and say "how much vaseline this time sir?". Of course as we've seen the small bunch at the top don't get off so easily even if it looks like they do. Do you think the average Mr or Ms Schmidt likes that they are bailing out Greeks, now Irish, probably Portuguese, maybe even Spaniards? I know I wouldnt.

To make a single currency work even vaguely, you need to have some sort of cultural buy in. More buy in than some pseud student who thinks the Euro is "greaaaat, cos, like, I can, like ooorder el Vino is an Italian bistro in my schoooolbuy Italian. Like" can muster. You also need a common language and fiscal policy. You can't have one nation deciding different tax rates from another. Not just us but all the others looking to protect their own patch.

The joke is I am a major fooking Europhile. I love what Europe has given to the world and by happy virtue of my birth I love even more what the Irish have. It saddens me to see that hitting a bump in the road this big. Worse when you see the so called "PIGS" countries and what they each have given to the world. Portugal, Spain and Italy have given us sooo much. What have the Romans done for us springs to mind . And Greece? Shít, what haven't they given the world? We had democracy, law, science, the renaissance and enlightenment and all manner of stuff from these nations and cultures. Us in Ireland? Well without us, the map of Europe after the fall of Rome and up to today would have looked very different. Just ask Charlemagne.

And one thing I do take from all this is that we'll be alright. We'll get through this and we will be better at the end of it. Even if it takes some hard shíte along the way. We always have. I've little enough faith in politics, but I have faith in people. And I have faith in the so called "PIGS" and even more in my fellow Irish men and women.

Codicil: I;ve had a few ales so will review in morning. Meh haven't had a few ales in a while, I figure ye'll forgive me. I further figure the insomniacs among you will thank me, for if you've read this far, sweet dreams.....

Darlughda

Degsy wrote: »

Why long term?

Its not supposed to be a lifestyle choice..

As I advised you read the whole thread. Even from yesterday afternoon.
I told my story there. No need to repeat it.

For complete bigots like yourself as you have proved in all your posts, you have simply no idea the amount of people who are GENUINE and poor in this society, many people are worse off than myself, elderly, suffering from a number of painful illnesses and then there are younger people like me who have to put up with the likes of you day in and day out.

Oh, and for the 3rd time what the hell are you doing tomorrow Degsy?

Lifestyle choice? I wish my curse upon you dear Degsy.

20Cent

francie81 wrote: »

At the end of the day Europe needs us more than we need them right now and I think a default is imminent should this appauling government don't play hard ball on a 6.7%.

I'll be there today with no intention to cause trouble but I tell you one thing I hope its the first of many and I mean these protests need to go one step further to get the message across by shutting the whole country down and keep doing this to show europe the people of Ireland mean business it's called power to the people - bring it on, f*** angela merkel in her nazi policies if it wasn't for america we'd be probly be speaking german today - bring it on.

David McWilliams tweeted that whats the bets the Brians announce its 5% on Sunday and declare a victory. Pretty high I think!

Cheap Thrills!

OPENROAD wrote: »

Again missing the point, we are significant only from the point of view we could bring the whole thing down

I know that, that's exactly what I said!

OPENROAD wrote: »

so do you honestly think marching for two hours will change anything either here or in Europe?

I really don't know, truthfully. But I'm sick of doing nothing. I'm going to try to do something. Like fluorescence said we need more ideas as well to leverage our power. We have no choice. I am going to try not to acccept this. It wont be perfect but it's better than nothing.

OPENROAD wrote: »

What we do need are people in there who are going to get the best possible deal for us, that is where I would agree with you, but again I ask you, do you think once off two hour march will change policy??

Yep, I agree we need smarter people, better negotiaters. That is up to us to demand. It will take years to reform our political system and bloated Government but it has to be done. The alternative is to be passive victims to stinking corruption and political bullying.

Again, I dont know if the march will make a difference but it's going ahead.

20Cent

Ban Ki Moon wrote: »

What time and where does the march take place?

12 noon from wood Quay, Christchurch to the GPO.

Krusader

Degsy wrote: »

We have resources too..agriculture,tourism,manufacturing,fisheries,skilled labour,innovation and an above-average national intelligence..why shouldnt we be able to govern our own affairs?

Argriculture and fisheries are dictated to us from brussels, I never said we shouldn't be able to govern ourselves anyhow

Iorras55

No thanks. Here in North Mayo where some twisted members of the Gardai have fine honed their bully boy tactics, we have taken more than our share over the last ten years and likely for the next ten. Not going to travel to Dublin for more of the same but good luck to those of you who do. Probably most Dublin people won't even be arsed to travel two or three miles to support it - hopefully I'm wrong but I suspect that too many people are STILL going along their merry way not yet realising that there is anything very much wrong! Wrapped in cotton wool, there seems to be a sizeable portion of the Irish electorate who really don't get it! Yet!

Flygimp

20Cent wrote: »

The issue for Saturday (Wood Quay, 12 noon) is to have a protest so large and strong, plus further follow-up protests and actions, that force the Government to hold an immediate election AND which also sends a message to a new Government in-waiting that they will be on the receiving end of the same massive protest and civil disobedience if they refuse to act in the interests of the Irish People but instead kow-tow to the "markets" which are only care about making a quick buck.

In my mind, staying at home is not an option.

Any western democracy (with a set of cahoonas) who believe at their core in: the freedom of speech, transparency and accountability of government and their right to pursue and act on these ideals would have put their foot on the throat of a corrupt state like this government in 2009.

Many of your commonwealth neighbours have sacrificed their youth in two world wars for the ideal of democracy and the freedom of choice... but not Ireland you are inherently gutless by nature and will always dance to the tune of a foreign landlord... and the Irish youth that are entrepreneurial flee to greener pastures.

history repeats itself yet again.

Sonnenblumen

Crosáidí wrote: »

In fairness to this point Germany have massive resources compared to us especially in the Rhineland,
Our greatest resource was handed over to Shell

The point is the German people applied themselves through years of hard work, enterprise and cunning to exploit all of the indigenous resources (including natural) to create and build the new German economic miracle (largely export based).

The Shell case in Ireland is by comparison perverse, as in many other examples of industrial initaitive, the system is designed to stifle. There are currently over 1,000 locals working with Shell, yet this number could be much higher. Are you suggesting these locals stop working and try and earn a living making tin whistles or sell 'Gombeenism' in a box to sceptical tourists?

20Cent

Iorras55 wrote: »

No thanks. Here in North Mayo where some twisted members of the Gardai have fine honed their bully boy tactics, we have taken more than our share over the last ten years and likely for the next ten. Not going to travel to Dublin for more of the same but good luck to those of you who do. Probably most Dublin people won't even be arsed to travel two or three miles to support it - hopefully I'm wrong but I suspect that too many people are STILL going along their merry way not yet realising that there is anything very much wrong! Wrapped in cotton wool, there seems to be a sizeable portion of the Irish electorate who really don't get it! Yet!

Make phone calls, email TD's, stand outside your local FF office. You can still do something.

andrewdeerpark

h2pogo wrote: »

LoL

The EU is left wing Looney communism with the right wing rules of a nanny state..

The left/right was paradigm designed to divide.

Its more complex than that every state has a seperate style of governent.

The successes of the EU far outweighs its failing since its inception after WW2.

No democratic body of different economies and political systems is going to be perfect however as a free democratic umbrella orgainisation is has been a success.

Its free democratic construction is also a weakness in times of crisis like now, that the looney sections of society like to exploit hence why we are falling behind China.

What puzzels me is the right wing UK anti-euro press; their is no gain for the open free trade London financial district in the EU's failure yet they get so much support and so much of the ordinary english middle age view europe in this way, not realising that their childern are earning a living off those people they are bashing??

OPENROAD

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

I know that, that's exactly what I said!



I really don't know, truthfully. But I'm sick of doing nothing. I'm going to try to do something. Like fluorescence said we need more ideas as well to leverage our power. We have no choice. I am going to try not to acccept this. It wont be perfect but it's better than nothing.



Yep, I agree we need smarter people, better negotiaters. That is up to us to demand. It will take years to reform our political system and bloated Government but it has to be done. The alternative is to be passive victims to stinking corruption and political bullying.

Again, I dont know if the march will make a difference but it's going ahead.

Don't get me wrong, I respect the fact that you are prepared to do something, but a one off march like the one on saturday will sadly achieve nothing imo.

As you say the political system needs reforming, but thats the whole political system, the anger at the moment seems to be with and rightly so with FF, but, and not wanting to put ourselves down too much, we are a tiny economy, a small country, though many of us thought different during the "celtic tiger " years yet our TD's etc.. are vastly overpaid with too many benefits befitting a country of our size.

20Cent

OPENROAD wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I respect the fact that you are prepared to do something, but a one off march like the one on saturday will sadly achieve nothing imo.

As you say the political system needs reforming, but thats the whole political system, the anger at the moment seems to be with and rightly so with FF, but, and not wanting to put ourselves down too much, we are a tiny economy, a small country, though many of us thought different during the "celtic tiger " years yet our TD's etc.. are vastly overpaid with too many benefits befitting a country of our size.

We can change that too. Check out : http://www.2nd-republic.ie/site/

Krusader

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

The point is the German people applied themselves through years of hard work, enterprise and cunning to exploit all of the indigenous resources (including natural) to create and build the new German economic miracle (largely export based).

The Shell case in Ireland is by comparison perverse, as in many other examples of industrial initaitive, the system is designed to stifle. There are currently over 1,000 locals working with Shell, yet this number could be much higher. Are you suggesting these locals stop working and try and earn a living making tin whistles or sell 'Gombeenism' in a box to sceptical tourists?

We could exploit thre resource ourselves through a nationalize company, sell the gas to europe and let the monies filter down through society. I hear Norway are quite good at this

Fluorescence

Wibbs wrote: »

Yep great in theory. But there is a problem. You're talking about an end result, years after we've defaulted, maybe dropped the Euro and all that. Great, but between that idea and this moment? That's an abyss of hurt. If you think it's looking bad now? Then if we do that, then watch rampant inflation, a static economy, overseas companies leaving in droves. We could well be back to wheelbarrows of currency to but a pint of milk. OK that's worst case scenario, but best case isn't much better.

Look, I'm tired, cold and filled to bursting point with outrage and fear. I'm a 19 year old student doing a degree with no practical purpose, without any part-time employment (or, it seems, chance of employment), and have no idea what the future holds for me. I'm frustrated and angry and I don't know what to do about it. I have had absolutely nothing to do with the crisis we're now in, and now no-one seems to be giving me a choice in how to proceed in matters that will affect the rest of my life and the lives of any future sprogs of mine. The only option I can see is to default and see where the dust settles, and I can't see anarchy being any worse than the alternatives. It's likely we'll be paying €1000s for a pint of milk in the future anyway if the Euro collapses.

I'm going to bed. I seriously need a good night's sleep and a clear head at this point.

Darlughda

OPENROAD wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I respect the fact that you are prepared to do something, but a one off march like the one on saturday will sadly achieve nothing imo.

As you say the political system needs reforming, but thats the whole political system, the anger at the moment seems to be with and rightly so with FF, but, and not wanting to put ourselves down too much, we are a tiny economy, a small country, though many of us thought different during the "celtic tiger " years yet our TD's etc.. are vastly overpaid with too many benefits befitting a country of our size.

Jayzus. How hard is it to get a banner and condense those words to be your choice of protest? Yeah. Easy to say on an internet forum, and shake the head and say well marching will sadly achieve nothing...

ffs. Man up! If you have something to say and something you believe in then come out and say it! Bloody hell how hard is it?

Fúck what will be achieved at this stage, the important thing is to get out there, if you genuinely want to, if you do quit making excuses and just do it and be part of something that might make a difference to how you feel about your obvious sense of alienation from society.

andrewdeerpark

Iorras55 wrote: »

No thanks. Here in North Mayo where some twisted members of the Gardai have fine honed their bully boy tactics, we have taken more than our share over the last ten years and likely for the next ten. Not going to travel to Dublin for more of the same but good luck to those of you who do. Probably most Dublin people won't even be arsed to travel two or three miles to support it - hopefully I'm wrong but I suspect that too many people are STILL going along their merry way not yet realising that there is anything very much wrong! Wrapped in cotton wool, there seems to be a sizeable portion of the Irish electorate who really don't get it! Yet!

Do you think in China you would get 10 years of protest and impass! With appeals, reviews, etc...

Their is a reason why China is the world's powerhouse economy currently and the lack of protest is one.... not saying that is correct however most foreign exploration companies will not touch Ireland currently because of the difficulties Shell had over this Gas field.

I do wonder some times, how do the Rossport protestors drive a car, take a flight or live their modern lives such is their lack of faith in modern engineering.

OPENROAD

Darlughda wrote: »

Jayzus. How hard is it to get a banner and condense those words to be your choice of protest? Yeah. Easy to say on an internet forum, and shake the head and say well marching will sadly achieve nothing...

ffs. Man up! If you have something to say and something you believe in then come out and say it! Bloody hell how hard is it?

Fúck what will be achieved at this stage, the important thing is to get out there, if you genuinely want to, if you do quit making excuses and just do it and be part of something that might make a difference to how you feel about your obvious sense of alienation from society.

I have a genuine excuse for not being able to go out and march at the moment, for what good it has done, I have made my feelings known to my local TD's not just now but during the Celtic Tiger, actually people use to say I was a moaner and sure what did it matter that rental retail space here was more expensive then the likes of New Bond Street in London.

Regarding the march on Saturday, I honestly think it won't make any difference to our bailout deal, the deal will be struck on Sunday from my understanding. As for political change, it will take more than just one march to make fundamental changes.

Degsy

Darlughda wrote: »

Lifestyle choice? I wish my curse upon you dear Degsy.

So its MY fault now is it?

Longterm receipt of unemployment benefits may not be a lifetstyle choice to you particularly but i live in an area where it most assuredly is to many.

Able bodied people who have been scrounging from the day they were born and continue to scrounge into adulthood and beyond because they state has enabled them to do so.

I see people at my local post office collecting bundles of 50 euro notes and hopping into jeeps,driving cars I couldnt afford and treating themselves to the best of flyblown fashion.

Is that MY fault?

Is it MY fault that most of the workers in Centra,Spar and McDonalds are foreign,scraping by on 200 quid a week and STILL managing to save?

My friend..this is the governments fault..all of it.

Sonnenblumen

Crosáidí wrote: »

We could exploit thre resource ourselves through a nationalize company, sell the gas to europe and let the monies filter down through society. I hear Norway are quite good at this

The State cannot afford current welfare and education costs, where's the wherewithall for the State to engage in commercial venture? The state already employs too many and the financial burden on private cos is becoming too onerous. Anyways we've had plenty of experience with Irish state owned enterprises which cost consumers more and ultimately fail. Ireland is no Norway. Facilitate a healthy environment for private enterprise to flourish, reap the tax benefits and focus on state service provision.

Perhaps tomorrow the fat cat union bosses will outline some economic strategies for getting Ireland out of it's current 'economic poverty trap'? No forget about the future, what are they going to do or make happen next Monday? I think not

Darlughda

Degsy wrote: »

So its MY fault now is it?
Is that MY fault?.

Sigh. Just pointing out that your sweeping statement assumptions do not take into account the amount of people who are genuine, ill, and/or vulnerable and are not screwing any system.

Degsy wrote: »

Longterm receipt of unemployment benefits may not be a lifetstyle choice to you particularly but i live in an area where it most assuredly is to many.
Able bodied people who have been scrounging from the day they were born and continue to scrounge into adulthood and beyond because they state has enabled them to do so.?.

Neither you nor I have any idea of the figures, but I would wager a bet that these scroungers are only a very, very small percentage of the the people who rely on benefits. But, on thing is for sure, the government would be damned pleased if you thought it was most of the people. Suit their agendas just nice thank you very much.

Degsy wrote: »

My friend..this is the governments fault..all of it.

Great. So, for the 4th time. What are you doing about it tomorrow, Degsy?

zootroid

Crosáidí wrote: »

Which of ye Boardsies will be marching on Saturday 27/11/2010 11am at Wood Quay, with the Unions, Jim Corr and other groups and individuals . You don't have to agree with either of their opinions but it is a protest for the people of Ireland from every background to join together in showing the fustration and anger to this incompetent, unmandated and unsupported government.
I feel we have to make a stand in numbers to show that we won't stand for corruption cronyism and won't be walked over anymore.

Ní neart go cur le chéile!
There's no strength without unity!

I will protest in the way I feel is most appropriate - at the ballot box.


Why would I march with people whose opinions I don't agree with? I would just be adding to their legitimacy. And while I'm not a fan of this government, I'm not going to betray my own beliefs. Good luck to the protesters, but I won't be there

starbelgrade

Degsy wrote: »

So its MY fault now is it?

Maybe.

Cheap Thrills!

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

The state already employs too many and the financial burden on private cos is becoming too onerous. Anyways we've had plenty of experience with Irish state owned enterprises which cost consumers more and ultimately fail. Ireland is no Norway. Facilitate a healthy environment for private enterprise to flourish, reap the tax benefits and focus on state service provision.

So true. What kinds of things can we do to stem the haemorrhage now? I like the idea of refusing to pay waste charges or something similar....?

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Perhaps tomorrow the fat cat union bosses will outline some economic strategies for getting Ireland out of it's current 'economic poverty trap'? No forget about the future, what are they going to do or make happen next Monday? I think not

Me neither. I, for one won't be sticking around to listen to their propeganda. They managed to hijack protest Saturday due to their organisation and planning. The rest of us missed a trick. We're used to refraining from any peaceful protest for fear of being hijacked and aligned to these disingeuous parasites. Why dont we turn the tables on them and let them see we can march too and Saturday in town doesn't belong to them.

Ah, fcuk them.

crapmanjoe

fluorescence wrote: »

Look, I'm tired, cold and filled to bursting point with outrage and fear. I'm a 19 year old student doing a degree with no practical purpose, without any part-time employment (or, it seems, chance of employment), and have no idea what the future holds for me. I'm frustrated and angry and I don't know what to do about it. I have had absolutely nothing to do with the crisis we're now in, and now no-one seems to be giving me a choice in how to proceed in matters that will affect the rest of my life and the lives of any future sprogs of mine. The only option I can see is to default and see where the dust settles, and I can't see anarchy being any worse than the alternatives. It's likely we'll be paying €1000s for a pint of milk in the future anyway if the Euro collapses.

I'm going to bed. I seriously need a good night's sleep and a clear head at this point.

Oh look - a 19 year student who has never done a days work trying to push a policy that will have major impact for 300m+ people for the next generation :P

Degsy wrote: »

Is that MY fault?

Look there is two ways of looking at the bank debt - and depends on which of the following options you belive is more correct

Option 1
Private sector in 2002 began to offer very competitive wages based on very strong exports / financial results and the public sector decided they should get similar increaes despite not working under same conditions or achieving same results. Both private and public workers begin spending like crazy
Builders see this as an opportuntity to build shopping centres, houses, car parks like they are going out of fashion - all this building is financed by banks, who are financed by bond holders

Option 2 (inverse of option 1)
Bond holders see irish banks as suckers who force funds onto them, banks see builders as suckers who force funds onto them, builders see home owners / shop owners as suckers and force shopping centre and over sized houses onto them

Everything is demand driven, ultimately the actions of the irish people from 2002 - 2007 was the driver of the boom.

Are we really saying as a nation that foreign bond holders, governments, pension funds, multinations shouldnt have been as stupid to invest money into ireland and so dont deserve there money back. "Once bitten twice shy" and all that - seriously we pull a stunt like that and i dont tink they'll come back

Since when have we started blaming people for giving us things that we couldnt afford

These are Irish banks who lent to irish people (using other peoples money) , collectively as a people they are our responsibility - for better or worse (people had no qualms taking there quarterly dividends for years did they)

Anyway im gone off topic here a small bit, im going to into town tomorrow to assess the situation, if i find a protest that is aimed at the stupidity of the government then yes i will join in. Staying well clear of unions, Sinn Fein, violence, debt default talk and any other sillyness i come across

Cheap Thrills!

crapmanjoe wrote: »

Oh look - a 19 year student who has never done a days work trying to push a policy that will have major impact for 300m+ people for the next generation :P

He/she is old enough to vote and his/her experience is no more/less valid than anyone elses. He/she is one of the next generation and therefore his/her opinion/contribution is welcome.

You say they never did a days work? Maybe they never got the chance. It's a cheap shot to bring that into anything, even for a lame laugh.

Run_to_da_hills

I can see this event now ending up in a massive snow ball fight.

Should be fun.

Degsy

Darlughda wrote: »

Great. So, for the 4th time. What are you doing about it tomorrow, Degsy?

Are you asking me for a date?

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Owwmykneecap

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

The State cannot afford current welfare and education costs, where's the wherewithall for the State to engage in commercial venture? The state already employs too many and the financial burden on private cos is becoming too onerous. Anyways we've had plenty of experience with Irish state owned enterprises which cost consumers more and ultimately fail. Ireland is no Norway. Facilitate a healthy environment for private enterprise to flourish, reap the tax benefits and focus on state service provision.

Perhaps tomorrow the fat cat union bosses will outline some economic strategies for getting Ireland out of it's current 'economic poverty trap'? No forget about the future, what are they going to do or make happen next Monday? I think not

Yes, mainly the welfare the banks are receiving.