€400 Part Broke - Shop Don't Want to Replace

Kintarō Hattori

A colleague of mine bought a Specialized racer style (sorry not so technical like yet!) bike from a shop about 2/3 months ago which cost him about €3,000. About 4/5 weeks after getting it the crankshaft broke on his cycle home.

He's been into the guys in the shop to try and have it replaced but they've said that these parts never normally brake and all but insinuated that he must have done something to break it. They've sent it back to the manufacturer but the guys in the shop don't hold out much chance of the manufacturer replacing the part under warranty so they've essentially told him if it's not replaced there they won't be doing anything for him.

I was pretty disappointed as I work in retail myself and if a customer had something break through regular use within a few months then it would be repaired/replaced without any quibble.

Does this sound normal to you guys or does it sound like poor service? My colleague is a keen cyclist and I will happily go up to the shop and try and sort this out for him if he has no luck. Would it be fair to expect them to replace a €400 part on a €3000 euro bike that broke after just a few weeks?

mgmt

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/small_claims_court.html

Alanstrainor

mgmt wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/small_claims_court.html

I was going to post the same thing. It sounds completely ridiculous OP, just because it hasn't happened before, doesn't mean it can't happen. I'd argue my case first, and then if they still refused to repair, i'd go the small claims court.

Barrya

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/confidence.jsp

Kintarō Hattori

Thanks guys, that's exactly what I thought. My retail end is electrical so I know very little about bikes/bike shops etc so just wanted to make sure of things before I had a word with them.

Thanks very much, I do appreciate it.

Raam

What make is the part?

I ask because I had trouble with the cranks/BB that I got on my Specialized years ago. It was some FSA Gossamer integrated doo-hickey. After some to and fro with Cycleways, they replaced it for no charge, with an Ultegra crankset.

My bike did not cost anywhere near 3000 so I doubt the crankset I had was worth 400.

Kintarō Hattori

I'm not sure what make the crankshaft was but it was the shop who fitted it for him. The bike was over the €3000 mark and putting on a €400 crankshaft brought it inline with his budget.

kirving

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankset

Have a look at the pic on the right, where it shows a fatigue fracture. Is that the type of break?

This too!

Basically the crack can spread from a tiny defect you may not even see, and could have been (due to timing, most probably was) there since manufacture. The crack can actually spread very quickly once it starts.

Infact, one of the lectureres in college mentioned crank arms failing like this only last week, so it doesn't appear to be that uncommon. (If it failed like this)

I'd agree that the bicycle shop should replace it.

Kintarō Hattori

Hmnn it's not like either of those two examples. I know he has a link to a site online where someone else had the same problem, I'll try and get that tomorrow and post the link here. Thanks anyway.

bcmf

i will stick my neck out here and say that under normal use a crank should rarely ever fail.
I broke part of a crank earlier in the year and when I made contact with the manufacturer they said "Sorry to hear about the trouble with your crankset. Definitely this would be covered under warranty. Once you find your proof of purchase you can return the cranks to the original point of purchase or a local shop that you work with. The dealer can then contact the distributor and they will sort out some new crankarms for you."
I would get in touch directly with manufacturer and get that side rolling as well

Kintarō Hattori

bcmf wrote: »

I would get in touch directly with manufacturer and get that side rolling as well

I'm pretty sure he's done that already, if not I'll recommend that he does. Thanks for the advice.

HivemindXX

If something never normally breaks there are two possibilties. One, your friend did something heroic to damage it (that no other cyclists ever do). Two, there was a manufacturing defect making the part weaker than it should be.

Assuming your friend didn't do anything crazy there should be no marks indicating misuse (hammering, welding, etc). What do they think he did? Pedal really hard? Get your money back / part replaced and never go to that shop again!

kona

Very easy to damage a crank, common example would be turning a corner in the wrong position,I.E inside crank down, this will imapct the road, can also be easy to get knocked off high kerbs and rocks. If its hollowtech its going to be a little less resistant to cracks and impacts than say a solid lump or steel.

Undercover Elephant

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Would it be fair to expect them to replace a €400 part on a €3000 euro bike that broke after just a few weeks?

Yes. If something breaks in that time without abnormal use (like crashing it), then I would say it's not of merchantable quality.

Take no merde from the shop. They are responsible for it. The manufacturer's warranty is just an add on - that's what "this does not affect your statutory rights" is all about.

This stuff about referring it to the manufacturer is usually just bluster to try to make you go away. Brown Thomas tried it on with the missus recently, little knowing she was a lawyer. If you get no sense from them by talking reasonably, I recommend going in and arguing when the shop is at its busiest.

kona

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

This stuff about referring it to the manufacturer is usually just bluster to try to make you go away. Brown Thomas tried it on with the missus recently, little knowing she was a lawyer. If you get no sense from them by talking reasonably, I recommend going in and arguing when the shop is at its busiest.

:rolleyes:

In which case Id tell to get the **** out of my shop. Why do you feel the need to throw the toys out of the pram and make a scene? The only thing you will accomplish is making yourself look like a tool.
If its busy people want to be served, they dont want some child taking up a assistants time with what he believes to be his "rights".

FWIW , Your right about the merchantable quality, the rest is the behaviour of a Joe Duffy wanker.

funkyjebus

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I was going to post the same thing. It sounds completely ridiculous OP, just because it hasn't happened before, doesn't mean it can't happen. I'd argue my case first, and then if they still refused to repair, i'd go the small claims court.

no need for small claims court, you'll only piss off a judge. if they refuse to repair under warrenty, thats fine, it may not cover it, however as a consumer you have statitory rights which have been effected. you will need to go to the nca at www.nca.ie. tell them you plan to bring this before that as a breach, but only to a manger or area manager, the highest you can get, they should see the sence in replacing it now to avoid investigation.

I got my freehub replaced after a year and a half free of change based on the arguement that it should not have happened so soon, and my statitory rights. they mentioned warrenty once and i just went on a rant about my rights and how there warranty was in addition to my rights.

give it to them op. get some free stuff for their attempted breach of your rights!

Kintarō Hattori

funkyjebus wrote: »

give it to them op. get some free stuff for their attempted breach of your rights!

Thanks for the good advice but really, there is no need for free stuff. Simply having the crankshaft replaced is all he wants. I had planned on buying a new bike early next year under the CTW scheme but after seeing the treatment he has received I will most likely go elsewhere.

funkyjebus

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Thanks for the good advice but really, there is no need for free stuff. Simply having the crankshaft replaced is all he wants. I had planned on buying a new bike early next year under the CTW scheme but after seeing the treatment he has received I will most likely go elsewhere.

I know what you mean, i just wanted a working wheel. fact is though, and this pisses me off: its ok for me, because I love an argument and have no problem speaking my mind, but a less assertive person would have bought a new wheelset (they originally told me it could not be replaced) or in your case a new chainset, which is awful. I would make this point.

BTW my advise should only be followed if they are holding a hard stance and will not facilite your problem. also not you contract of purchase is with the shop, you do not need to contact the manufacture, that onus is upon them.

Undercover Elephant

kona wrote: »

:rolleyes:

In which case Id tell to get the **** out of my shop. Why do you feel the need to throw the toys out of the pram and make a scene?

Because, if you'd been reading properly, you'd see that trying to be reasonable had already failed to work. What's your alternative? Small claims court? Whining to your mates in the pub?

kona

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

Because, if you'd been reading properly, you'd see that trying to be reasonable had already failed to work. What's your alternative? Small claims court? Whining to your mates in the pub?

The shop are dealing with it, the only people who have seen this Crankset and know whats going on is the OP mate and The bikeshop. Advising people to go on a mad one like a gob****e on 3rd hand info is a bit retarded.

What would my approach be? argue in a logical calm fashion and build a relationship with your LBS. Ive had plenty of ****heads go off in the shop i work in and I lose respect and have no intention of helping them, regardless of weather they have "rights".
If your nice and some what sane and rational, then Ill go out of my way to help you, infact even if you broke the part yourself and admitted it Id help out, discounts, and maybe even free labour.

Tactics like your promoting should not be tolerated on any level. Its spoilt brt behaviour.

Bunnyhopper

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

If you get no sense from them by talking reasonably, I recommend going in and arguing when the shop is at its busiest.

kona wrote: »

What would my approach be? argue in a logical calm fashion [...] Ive had plenty of ****heads go off in the shop i work in and I lose respect and have no intention of helping them, regardless of weather they have "rights".
If your nice and some what sane and rational, then Ill go out of my way to help you, infact even if you broke the part yourself and admitted it Id help out, discounts, and maybe even free labour.

Start out behaving reasonably, but if that doesn't meet with the response you want switch to being unhelpful.

I'm glad to see you two are in such clear agreement about the best tactics for handling these things

fenris

Cycleways?

Undercover Elephant

kona wrote: »

The shop are dealing with it, the only people who have seen this Crankset and know whats going on is the OP mate and The bikeshop. Advising people to go on a mad one like a gob****e on 3rd hand info is a bit retarded.

What would my approach be? argue in a logical calm fashion and build a relationship with your LBS.

Firstly, no one suggested "going on a mad one", and secondly, I said argue at busy times only if the customer got no sense by talking to them reasonably. You even quoted it! At least Bunnyhopper gets it.

Have you considered reading what you quote before bandying about words like "brt" (sic), "wanker", "gob****e", "mad" and "retarded"?

kona

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

Firstly, no one suggested "going on a mad one", and secondly, I said argue at busy times only if the customer got no sense by talking to them reasonably. You even quoted it! At least Bunnyhopper gets it.

Have you considered reading what you quote before bandying about words like "brt" (sic), "wanker", "gob****e", "mad" and "retarded"?

I take it you havnt worked in retail, or if you have its wasnt in this decade.

Ok what rational person would go into a busy shop and make a fool out of themselves infront of as many people as possible?
Your "tactic" is to try get the retailer to lose business by shouting and screaming how **** he is in front of others. (Spoilt Brat Behaviour).
Or am I missing something??

As soon as you get the same outcome (shop not dealing with you to what you percieve as a acceptable resoloution) this time with a audience, you going to leave. When you leave, Retailer gives people discounts for having to listen to your gick and the inconvienience, now your the dickhead, hes lost no customers and he wont deal with you. ever.

Would you pull your spoilt brat antics in a restraunt?

kona

fenris wrote: »

Cycleways?

Hellfrauds

Kintarō Hattori

fenris wrote: »

Cycleways?

Whistles ......... :rolleyes: Ahem, I won't say much.

Single Malt

kona wrote: »

Very easy to damage a crank, common example would be turning a corner in the wrong position,I.E inside crank down, this will imapct the road, can also be easy to get knocked off high kerbs and rocks. If its hollowtech its going to be a little less resistant to cracks and impacts than say a solid lump or steel.

What are you on??? A crank should never break from a kerb impact, and if it did it was faulty. I have never seen a Hollowtech crank cracked. Tapers rounded, and splines malformed due to improper service yes, but cracked no. Solid forged cranks are far more likely to crack from fatigue, as the back is usually hollowed for weight reasons, removing material where its needed, from the outside (high stress) area. There is only a near zero strength advantage to a hollow crank, due to the material being missing from stress free zones.

Crank hitting kerb should not cause a failure.

To OP; I would not be inclined to listen to what most people are saying here. They do not know the story as what happened, or even what brand cranks they are. No one here is in a position to make any judgements. I suspect the shop sent the crank back to the distributor, and the process takes time. Especially on high value items, and shop cannot just necessarily replace it, be it for lack of stock or other reasons. At €400 I will guess this is a carbon or Dura Ace crankset. A lot of shops would not carry multiple of the same such item in stock, as most shops do not have large liquid funds or a lot of buying power.

Chances are its warranty. Your friend should talk to the shop manager in a calm and reasonable fashion, as going in angry, usually leads the people that can help to stop caring. Treat others as you wish to be treated. I know its not the shop I work, as we would have replaced no quibbles (because cranks don't break on a road bike), or, if replacement was not possible would have lent a different crankset while the warranty was processed (which your friend could suggest, if the shop had not suggested). Still, none of us know if the bike was crashed (and that need not be on the day the crank broke), as that voids all rights to free replacement, warranty or otherwise.

kona

Single Malt wrote: »

What are you on??? A crank should never break from a kerb impact, and if it did it was faulty. I have never seen a Hollowtech crank cracked. Tapers rounded, and splines malformed due to improper service yes, but cracked no. Solid forged cranks are far more likely to crack from fatigue, as the back is usually hollowed for weight reasons, removing material where its needed, from the outside (high stress) area. There is only a near zero strength advantage to a hollow crank, due to the material being missing from stress free zones.

Crank hitting kerb should not cause a failure.

To OP; I would not be inclined to listen to what most people are saying here. They do not know the story as what happened, or even what brand cranks they are. No one here is in a position to make any judgements. I suspect the shop sent the crank back to the distributor, and the process takes time. Especially on high value items, and shop cannot just necessarily replace it, be it for lack of stock or other reasons. At €400 I will guess this is a carbon or Dura Ace crankset. A lot of shops would not carry multiple of the same such item in stock, as most shops do not have large liquid funds or a lot of buying power.

Chances are its warranty. Your friend should talk to the shop manager in a calm and reasonable fashion, as going in angry, usually leads the people that can help to stop caring. Treat others as you wish to be treated. I know its not the shop I work, as we would have replaced no quibbles (because cranks don't break on a road bike), or, if replacement was not possible would have lent a different crankset while the warranty was processed (which your friend could suggest, if the shop had not suggested). Still, none of us know if the bike was crashed (and that need not be on the day the crank broke), as that voids all rights to free replacement, warranty or otherwise.

Read it again, I said Damage, not snap clean off, however whilst it may not snap off it can lead to it snapping off.
Your very naieve if you think stuff just doesnt break, everything has the potential to break, nobody here knows what went on with this crank, apparantley it was fitted by the shop and is aftermarket, at e400 Id imagine they are some tastey cranks, and Id speculate may be made of a mote exotic material than mild steel or aluminium.
Although I think we are echoeing each other.
Id agree that the crank is being sent off to the distrubutor under their request.

FWIW Ive seen Axles in BB snapped off, If that can snap then Id say cranks have snapped. Especially if they are Carbon or the likes, possible manufacturing flaw. Companies will keep shaving weight off and pushing it until they start having quality issues IMO

Single Malt

kona wrote: »

Read it again, I said Damage, not snap clean off, however whilst it may not snap off it can lead to it snapping off.
Your very naieve if you think stuff just doesnt break, everything has the potential to break, nobody here knows what went on with this crank, apparantley it was fitted by the shop and is aftermarket, at e400 Id imagine they are some tastey cranks, and Id speculate may be made of a mote exotic material than mild steel or aluminium.
Although I think we are echoeing each other.
Id agree that the crank is being sent off to the distrubutor under their request.

FWIW Ive seen Axles in BB snapped off, If that can snap then Id say cranks have snapped.

But, what you say there all falls under the warranty category. The only cranks I've seen broken were cheap or 8s LX and XT forged due to fatigue. I have seen BB axles snapped too, square and ISIS (and one Hollowtech II where the punter had run a worn BB so long the axle wore through). Stuff does just break, that's what the warranty is for. But scratches due to kerb impact are par for the course with normal use, and no reason to deny a warranty claim

kona

Single Malt wrote: »

But, what you say there all falls under the warranty category. The only cranks I've seen broken were cheap or 8s LX and XT forged due to fatigue. I have seen BB axles snapped too, square and ISIS (and one Hollowtech II where the punter had run a worn BB so long the axle wore through). Stuff does just break, that's what the warranty is for. But scratches due to kerb impact are par for the course with normal use, and no reason to deny a warranty claim

I think its up to the store to determine, but personally if youve bent your crank from hitting a kerb its misuse and while i may offer a discount on the replacement (if your sane) I wouldnt warranty it.
If I warrantied these youd get the MTB heads whacking them off rocks and claiming the same.
I think you will agree, that when stuff breaks, 99% or the time it doesnt randomly go, there is always a cause and Its usually due to misuse. I define misuse as impacts and lack of maintenance, and using the bike beyond the limits its capable of.
Ive never ever personally snapped a crank, Ive bent a few, but replaced these myself and paid for the part. As cynical as it may be, You would want to be insane to warranty a e400 crankset as a goodwill gesture, without sending it off to make sure your going to get a replacement sent from the distributor.
IMO this is whats happening with the bike shop and I think its totally acceptable. e400 is more than aot of complete bikes.

Single Malt

kona wrote: »

I think its up to the store to determine, but personally if youve bent your crank from hitting a kerb its misuse and while i may offer a discount on the replacement (if your sane) I wouldnt warranty it.
If I warrantied these youd get the MTB heads whacking them off rocks and claiming the same.
I think you will agree, that when stuff breaks, 99% or the time it doesnt randomly go, there is always a cause and Its usually due to misuse. I define misuse as impacts and lack of maintenance, and using the bike beyond the limits its capable of.
Ive never ever personally snapped a crank, Ive bent a few, but replaced these myself and paid for the part. As cynical as it may be, You would want to be insane to warranty a e400 crankset as a goodwill gesture, without sending it off to make sure your going to get a replacement sent from the distributor.
IMO this is whats happening with the bike shop and I think its totally acceptable. e400 is more than aot of complete bikes.

I won't disagree with most of that. I just fail to see how a normal kerb impact will bend a crank. My carbon Campy cranks are scratched to hell at the pedal end from little kerb impacts, but I would never doubt their structural integrity. Mind you the scratches are superficial. In fairness, the OP just said it broke, and I did make the mistake to assume that meant snapped. If it's bent, then it's to the shops/distributors discretion, but a break is unlikely due to misuse, unless there was an accident. The OP was too vague, and by rights this thread should be locked, as we are all being too reactionary. I am done with this thread.

Kintarō Hattori

It snapped completely. Through reading the various replies my initial opinion would seem to be correct, that the shop should replace the part. I'll see how he gets on next week and let you guys know. Many thanks for all the replies and all the advice given.