Prayer - Korean Style

PDN

Last week I spent a few days in South Korea (on my way home from some other Asian countries). It was interesting to visit the demilitarised area at the
border with North Korea (a visit that I'm glad we didn't make a few days later). I also had the opportunity to lecture at a private Christian university. I was very much impressed at the politeness of the students who all bowed in greeting (probably more in deference to the very courtly elderly professor that was accompanying me than to my rather scruffy self).

The morning we were due to fly home my wife and I decided to visit the Yoido Full Gospel Church (reputed to be the largest single Christian congregation in the world). They have a regular early morning prayer meeting at 5am - so we got up early and arrived there at 4.30am.

Imagine my surprise to find a traffic jam outside the Church, with more coaches parked than you find on all-Ireland finals day in Mountjoy Square! Inside, the building was completely full - 25,000 people were already praying noisily a good 15 minutes before the scheduled start time. Apparently this was not a special day or anything - this happens every morning!

There were teams of ushers on duty (about 150 or more that I could count) and they kindly made room to find two seats for us and got us headsets so we could hear an English translation of everything that was happening. A choir led some singing, which was much more traditional than I'm used to at home (I think they were singing "Jesus loves me, this I know") and a preacher shared some kind of exhortation. Then people began to pray again, and a team of ministers spread through the auditorium praying with individuals as they saw fit.

There was no formal end to the meeting as in western churches, which probably made very good sense as the crowd gradually melted away without the mad crush you get at the final whistle of a rugby game with a similar sized crowd. Some of the ushers came round offering everyone a bread roll and a little carton of milk which we declined (a good breakfast was waiting for us back at our hotel) but I guess it was useful for those who were going on to work straight from the prayer meeting.

Overall the age profile (mostly over 45 years old) was considerably older to what I'm used in Irish churches where I normally see congregations composed primarily of twenty & thirty-somethings.

We also had the opportunity to visit Yoido Church's 'Prayer Mountain' - about an hour's drive outside Seoul. This is exactly what it says on the tin - they bought a mountain and people go there to pray. There are some auditoriums, a little restaurant where we could eat some kind of stew with kimchi, and grottos on the mountainside where you lock yourself in to pray alone.

Overall, I found the whole experience fascinating. The Church in Korea is very different culturally to what I'm used to, and their discipline and fervency in prayer is very impressive. It reminded me how many different expressions of faith you find within the Christian Church, and encouraged me to respect those who choose to worship the Triune God in different ways than I do.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

Overall, I found the whole experience fascinating. The Church in Korea is very different culturally to what I'm used to, and their discipline and fervency in prayer is very impressive. It reminded me how many different expressions of faith you find within the Christian Church

I think its an insight into the nature of the early church, before the enforcement of the 'This is the one size fits all' approach that the Roman empire rolled out. Rome eradicated indiginous Christian congregations, in order to make an organised hierarchical structure (People can argue over its motivations in doing so). Its remarkable and somewhat sad, the amount of people who still value such a monolithic approach to Christianity.

and encouraged me to respect those who choose to worship the Triune God in different ways than I do.

Still can't take that term, it just sticks in my throat:) I know its vaguely descriptive of the relationship of God, but it still just sounds so.........disrespectful or something. I'd probably go with Living God myself:)

robindch

PDN wrote: »

It was interesting to visit the demilitarised area at the border with North Korea

Here's the view from the other side -- we had to "bribe" the DPRK general at the front with packets of western cigarettes

PDN wrote: »

The Church in Korea is very different culturally to what I'm used to, and their discipline and fervency in prayer is very impressive.

Back over the border, there was no shortage of fervency, discipline and prayer-like stuff either. Especially at the truly extraordinary Mass Games, aka Arirang Festival. Though as I implied somewhere to you recently, while the objects of reverence might be polar opposites, the emotions and their expression seem pretty much identical to me on both sides of the DMZ.

.

monosharp

Yes PDN they are very passionate here. Why didn't you let me know you were around we could have had a cup of coffee ?

Here's some more passionate Korean Christians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqe5ujMXeuc

They are praying for God to burn down various large Buddhist temples around the Country.

Oh and I'm quite surprised you would visit Yeoido church, do you accept their beliefs then PDN ? Because according to the following Mr Cho has some pretty strange ideas of what Christianity actually is.

Cho's teaching "is nothing short of occultism" and "a departure from historic Christian theology" (p. 353 Christianity in Crisis by Hank Hanegraaff, ISBN 0-89081-976-9)

Michael Horton, comments on Robert Schuller's forward to Yonggi Cho's book, Fourth Dimension, arguing that it is a blend of "psychology, magic and religion" (p. 327 Power Religion: The Selling Out of the Evangelical Church? by J. I. Packer, R. C. Sproul, Alister E. McGrath, Charles W. Colson (editor),
Michael Scott Horton (editor), ISBN 0-8024-6773-3)

Cho's ideas are "rooted in Buddhist and occult teachings" (p. 149 Charismatic Chaos by Dr. John F. MacArthur, ISBN 0-310-57572-9)

Oh but maybe you didn't want any of that mentioned ?

Out of interest I wonder which church's beliefs are more similar to your own. Mr Cho's or Fred Phelps.

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

Yes PDN they are very passionate here. Why didn't you let me know you were around we could have had a cup of coffee ?

I enjoyed several cups of coffee with my wife at the Caffe Bene that was beside our hotel. I can't for a second imagine that your presence would have improved the romance mood or provided any additional intellectual stimulation. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the addition of bitterness to our conversation would forced me to ask for extra ice cream on my waffle.

They are praying for God to burn down various large Buddhist temples around the Country.

Yes, I seem to remember you banging on about that before once or twice.

Unfortunately, I can't answer for every prayer or belief held by evey individual one of the many millions of Christians in Korea.

In fact, in the short time I spent with Korean Christians in various settings (Presbyterians, Pentecostals, and other Evangelicals), no-one prayed for God to burn anything down, no-one accosted me or grabbed my arm at the subway station, and no-one tried to stop anyone else from bowing - on the contrary they seemed to enjoy bowing to each other and to me with a frequency that must build the most awesome six-packs.

Oh and I'm quite surprised you would visit Yeoido church, do you accept their beliefs then PDN ? Because according to the following Mr Cho has some pretty strange ideas of what Christianity actually is.

Cho's teaching "is nothing short of occultism" and "a departure from historic Christian theology" (p. 353 Christianity in Crisis by Hank Hanegraaff, ISBN 0-89081-976-9)

On my trip I also visited a Buddhist temple in Ulaan Baator - does this mean that I must accept their beliefs too? I hadn't realised that accepting everyone's beliefs 100% might be considered necessary before visiting a building.

I don't agree with everything Mr Cho has ever taught (in fact I can't actually think of any preacher, myself included, where I can say I agree with everything they've ever taught). Having said that, I would certainly agree a lot more with what I've heard of Mr Cho than I would agree with what I've read from Mr Hanegraaff's pen.

In fact, you're sounding rather hypocritical. In the past we've had to put up with you complaining about how about horrible evangelicals are destroying local culture and traditions in Korea. Now, simply because someone you dislike has visited a particular Church in Korea, you cite Hanegraaff to criticise Cho - even though Hanegraaff's primary criticism of Cho is that he says Cho has preserved and incorporated too many elements of traditional Korean culture and philiosophy!

Michael Horton, comments on Robert Schuller's forward to Yonggi Cho's book, Fourth Dimension, arguing that it is a blend of "psychology, magic and religion" (p. 327 Power Religion: The Selling Out of the Evangelical Church? by J. I. Packer, R. C. Sproul, Alister E. McGrath, Charles W. Colson (editor),
Michael Scott Horton (editor), ISBN 0-8024-6773-3)

I doubt if you agree with 99.9% of what Mr Horton has written on other subjects, do you? It's amusing that you want to google enough to find his name now in order to criticise a church that I happened to visit, and then to quote him as an authority.

But your strange reference to Horton raises an interesting question. Should I refrain from visiting a particular church, not because of anything that church has said or done, but because I disagree with someone who once wrote a forward to a book that had been written by the pastor of that church?

If you allow your daily activities to be limited by such considerations then life must become very complicated indeed. :pac:

Cho's ideas are "rooted in Buddhist and occult teachings" (p. 149 Charismatic Chaos by Dr. John F. MacArthur, ISBN 0-310-57572-9

I'm not quite sure why you think I would be interested in any quote of MacArthurs in a book which is itself one giant slam and tirade against the branch of Christianity to which I belong. That's a bit like using a quote from Mein Kampf as an authority in an argument with a Jew!

Again, if MacArthur were correct (which would be a big assumption given my disagreements with MacArthur on so many other issues to do with Christianity) then surely, in your book, that would be a good thing, wouldn't it?

You're the one who has posted often here about how good Buddhism is and how horrible evangelical Christians destroying it. But now you want to criticise Cho for the awful crime of being rooted in Buddhist teachings!

Make your mind up, monosharp, do you hate Christians for apparently praying for Buddhist Temples to be burned down, or for being too soft on Buddhism by not eradicating it sufficiently from their teaching? You'll stand more chance of being taken seriously if you choose one or the other - but trying to do both in the same post just makes you appear to be unprincipled and vindictive.

Out of interest I wonder which church's beliefs are more similar to your own. Mr Cho's or Fred Phelps.

Out of interest, I wonder which political system is closer to your ideal - Mr Stalin's or Mr Mao's.

You know the real shame? Since you apparently live in Korea you could actually have added something useful to this thread and facilitated meaningful discussion.

As it is you have, true to form, acted like a troll who is more interested in spewing your dislike of Christianity, and trying, and failing, to score cheap points. I actually feel very sorry for you. I can't imagine living life with such a chip on one's shoulder.

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

Unfortunately, I can't answer for every prayer or belief held by evey individual one of the many millions of Christians in Korea.

Well then why not watch the video I posted. It shows one of these mega churches with the pastor praying for Buddhist temples to crumble and his large congregation mumbling along.

You know the real shame? Since you apparently live in Korea you could actually have added something useful to this thread and facilitated meaningful discussion.

Alright then I will engage with you in a civil manner and not go for cheap shots if you'll do the same. Because regardless of our past discussions I do have genuine concerns about this as it affects where I live and I do not hate any religion, Christianity included.

Firstly I don't have any problem with the vast majority of religious people here, Christian or otherwise.

What I have a problem with is the minority of people who are almost always Christian or some variation of Christian-like cults* who are fundamentalist to the point of insanity. They disrupt the lives of other people trying to spread their religion and they genuinely do believe that people of other religions especially Buddhists (probably as their main rival) are sick and deluded and need to be forced to change. They do go around burning down buddhist temples and actively protesting against anything connected to other religions, especially buddhism.

* by variation of Christian-like I am referring to such institutions as the moonies etc. If you have a better word to refer to them then tell me and I'll use it.

Why don't mainstream Christians like yourself condemn these people ? You've often stated how interested you are in a secular society and freedom of religion. Why not stand side by side against this religious persecution, against these religious fascists ?

Regardless of your opinion of me I do in fact think you're an intelligent fellow. If I didn't I wouldn't bother trying to argue with you. What annoys me about you so much is you refuse to condemn these people and I can't understand why except because they are closer to your religion than the other guys.

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

Well then why not watch the video I posted. It shows one of these mega churches with the pastor praying for Buddhist temples to crumble and his large congregation mumbling along..

So what? You've posted this stuff before, and I've said before that it's not personally the way I would choose to pray. So long as those guys aren't actually inciting anyone to physically attack Buddhist Temples then I don't think their prayers are that damaging are they?

Personally, I often find things in churches that I don't agree with - that's life. But most of it, to be honest, isn't worth obsessing over or hijacking threads over it.

Firstly I don't have any problem with the vast majority of religious people here, Christian or otherwise.

What I have a problem with is the minority of people who are almost always Christian or some variation of Christian-like cults* who are fundamentalist to the point of insanity. They disrupt the lives of other people trying to spread their religion and they genuinely do believe that people of other religions especially Buddhists (probably as their main rival) are sick and deluded and need to be forced to change. They do go around burning down buddhist temples and actively protesting against anything connected to other religions, especially buddhism.

* by variation of Christian-like I am referring to such institutions as the moonies etc. If you have a better word to refer to them then tell me and I'll use it.

Why don't mainstream Christians like yourself condemn these people ? You've often stated how interested you are in a secular society and freedom of religion. Why not stand side by side against this religious persecution, against these religious fascists ?

So you're opposed to people protesting against other religions are you? So will you, monosharp, condemn the non-Catholics who protested against the Pope's visit to the UK recently?

I have consistently on these boards condemned anyone, (atheist Muslim Christian or Buddhist) who uses violence, coercion or similar means to impose their views on others. I have also, in previous threads, posted links quoting Christian leaders in Korea who also condemn such actions. Yet none of that seems to stop you banging on about this flipping hobby horse of yours or inserting silly trollish remarks about Fred Phelps.

So let me state it as clearly as any human being can:
"I, PDN, unreservedly condemn the actions of anyone who advocates hatred or violence against another group of people. I also unreservedly condemn anyone who commits violence against other people's property, irrespective of whether that property is religious or not."

Is that enough to make stop riding this hobby horse in this forum?

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

So what? You've posted this stuff before, and I've said before that it's not personally the way I would choose to pray. So long as those guys aren't actually inciting anyone to physically attack Buddhist Temples then I don't think their prayers are that damaging are they?

How can you call that NOT inciting ? Watch the video. I know you have slow net but just let it load and make a cuppa or something.

If some pastor in a US megachurch started calling on god to give all homosexuals aids or for all mosques to be burned to the ground what would the reaction be ? Would it be incitement or not ?

Of course it's incitement.

So you're opposed to people protesting against other religions are you? So will you, monosharp, condemn the non-Catholics who protested against the Pope's visit to the UK recently?

They are protesting against the government (or city council I'm not sure) giving money to promote some ancient temples, graves, relics etc for tourism. The reason they are protesting is because promoting the local areas history equals showing foreigners the Buddhist past.

I have consistently on these boards condemned anyone, (atheist Muslim Christian or Buddhist) who uses violence, coercion or similar means to impose their views on others. I have also, in previous threads, posted links quoting Christian leaders in Korea who also condemn such actions. Yet none of that seems to stop you banging on about this flipping hobby horse of yours or inserting silly trollish remarks about Fred Phelps.

Take this latest thread you've started. Talking about the passion etc of these mega churches and how good it is. That same passion is used to incite violence and destruction. You are only giving one side of the story, the one you favour.

I know and I accept that now all people are like this. I have never stated that all or even the majority of Christians in Korea are fundie nuts.

Here's a quote for you from one of these Korean pastors.

"If I acted on what I believed I, too, could have vandalized temples. When I consider those who commit such acts I think to myself that they have a much stronger faith than me." -- Deacon Lee Bahn-Sung

Is that enough to make stop riding this hobby horse in this forum?

I will stop talking about this but all I ask is that you look at both sides of this. All I am trying to show is that there are enormous issues in Korea because of people just like the ones you were praising in the Yeoido church.

Fanny Cradock

monosharp wrote: »

I will stop talking about this.

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

I will stop talking about this but all I ask is that you look at both sides of this. All I am trying to show is that there are enormous issues in Korea because of people just like the ones you were praising in the Yeoido church.

Hang on, I speak warmly of my visit to the Yoido church (of whom I know of no such accusations), and therefore you start banging on about totally different churches?

I, for one, am heartily sick of such trolling.

So your position is that everytime a thread mentions any of the vast majority of churches in Korea that co-exist peacably with Buddhists, that you're going to keep banging on about the ones who don't? If that is your position then it is very hard for the mods to see this as anything other than disruptive trolling that merits a ban.