Bilingual Road Signs in Ireland

gbee

ardmacha wrote: »

As you so anti Irish, why not change your username to JohnW?

I don't think it's anti Irish. It's a safety issue and I'm sure it would fail if subjected to a rigorous Health & Safety scrutiny.

Quaint Irish names belong in the handbook and visitor guides, and maybe local signs, not on the fast moving main thoroughfares and busy and conplex enough already, junctions.

gbee

gbee wrote: »

Quaint Irish names belong in the handbook and visitor guides, and maybe local signs, not on the fast moving main thoroughfares and busy and conplex enough already, junctions.

It does if you consider Irish to be your principal language, whether or not you (are able to) use it frequently is another matter.

Personally I don't but others do.

SeanW

ardmacha wrote: »

I think Italian people are proud of their connection with Latin.

Perhaps, but they don't ram it down their childrens throats at school and they don't put it on their road signs. I also seriously doubt that there's a powerful Latin lobby constantly whining and making demands like there is on this thread.

As you so anti Irish, why not change your username to JohnW?

This may come as a surprise to you, but I have little no ideological grievance with the language itself, no more than any other language I don't speak, but rather the mentality of its promoters.

When I see a road sign, I want it to help me get where I am going, nothing more and nothing less. Please feel free to explain to me how these signs are going to help me get to Fermoy or Ardee easier than the current signs?

L1011

etchyed wrote: »

Well, maybe I shouldn't have put the "good" in there. But since you asked, what do you think of the overall point?

I don't see any justification for retaining Irish on roadsigns outside the Gaeltacht and I don't see any justification for removing English within the Gaeltacht.

etchyed

MYOB wrote: »

I don't see any justification for retaining Irish on roadsigns outside the Gaeltacht and I don't see any justification for removing English within the Gaeltacht.

I meant the overall point about acknowledging the opinions of others as a useful thing to do. Unsurprisingly you don't seem to have understood it.

L1011

etchyed wrote: »

I meant the overall point about acknowledging the opinions of others as a useful thing to do. Unsurprisingly you don't seem to have understood it.

You're the one who seems to think that acknowledging someone's opinion means you need to agree with them.

I acknowledge their opinion - and I disagree entirely with it.

DJP

SeanW wrote: »

When I see a road sign, I want it to help me get where I am going, nothing more and nothing less. Please feel free to explain to me how these signs are going to help me get to Fermoy or Ardee easier than the current signs?

Your signs wouldn't be used, fortunately.

etchyed

MYOB wrote: »

You're the one who seems to think that acknowledging someone's opinion means you need to agree with them.

I'll drop this after this post, but in fact I said entirely the opposite. Given your particular style of posting, MYOB, I never expected you to fully comprehend what I was getting at, but you really have missed the point spectacularly.

L1011

etchyed wrote: »

Given your particular style of posting, MYOB, I never expected you to fully comprehend what I was getting at, but you really have missed the point spectacularly.

Care to explain what you mean by that?

DJP

MYOB wrote: »

Care to explain what you mean by that?

MYOB wrote: »

I don't see any justification for retaining Irish on roadsigns outside the Gaeltacht and I don't see any justification for removing English within the Gaeltacht.

The Government; Irish speakers and the majority of the population in the State want to increase the number of Irish speakers- officially to 250,000 by 2030. Do you see any justification in what the majority want on this?

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

The Government; Irish speakers and the majority of the population in the State want to increase the number of Irish speakers- officially to 250,000 by 2030. Do you see any justification in what the majority want on this?

Can you provide any proof that the majority of the population in the State want that? Because that's the first time I've ever heard someone claim that.

If there are 250,000 primary Irish speakers in the State at any point in time ever again I'd be astounded.

DJP

MYOB wrote: »

Can you provide any proof that the majority of the population in the State want that? Because that's the first time I've ever heard someone claim that.

If there are 250,000 primary Irish speakers in the State at any point in time ever again I'd be astounded.

The 20 Year Strategy for the Irish Language is a Government Strategy and now and throughout its formulation has cross-party support. Only cranks don't like seeing Irish supported and promoted.

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

The 20 Year Strategy for the Irish Language is a Government Strategy and now and throughout its formulation has cross-party support.

And how does that show that the majority of the population supports it?

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Only cranks don't like seeing Irish supported and promoted.

Failing to this level of argument after two posts really shows the lack of depth of your case.

SeanW

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Your signs wouldn't be used, fortunately.

How? The precedents laid down by the Official Languages Act wouldn't allow much else.

DJP

MYOB wrote: »

And how does that show that the majority of the population supports it?

Because our TD's are directly elected by the people.

Motorist

It's laughable to think ramming Irish down peoples throats with ridiculous token measures such as Lána Bus, Lána Tram has any effect on the uptake or interest in the language. The signs should solely be in English to allow bigger writing.

The census figures of people with cupla focal who claim to be fluent in it are wildly inaccurate.

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Because our TD's are directly elected by the people.

Argument does not follow.

People do not ever agree with 100% of the policies of who they elect. This time more than any, seeing as the current government majority is caused by them not being FF.

SeanW

Motorist wrote: »

It's laughable to think ramming Irish down peoples throats with ridiculous token measures such as Lána Bus, Lána Tram has any effect on the uptake or interest in the language. The signs should solely be in English to allow bigger writing.

The census figures of people with cupla focal who claim to be fluent in it are wildly inaccurate.

I suspect that all the "support" for the Irish language is much like the 84% of people who claimed to be catholic, despite gambling, not keeping Lent, having multiple relationships before marriage, abortions, divorces, never going to Mass etc.

DJP

MYOB wrote: »

Argument does not follow.

People do not ever agree with 100% of the policies of who they elect. This time more than any, seeing as the current government majority is caused by them not being FF.

Your argument does not follow clearly.

Of course TD's voters do not always agree with everything the TD (s) are in favour of. However the main criticism with the Official Languages Act OLA has been in relation to the translation of annual reports and County Development Plans into Irish. Nobody is standing over, or generally making, any criticism in relation to the Act and signage.

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Your argument does not follow clearly.

Of course TD's voters do not always agree with everything the TD (s) are in favour of. However the main criticism with the Official Languages Act OLA has been in relation to the translation of annual reports and County Development Plans into Irish. Nobody is standing over, or generally making, any criticism in relation to the Act and signage.

I have no idea what this tangent you're going off on is about.

You made a claim that the majority of people in the State want to increase the number of Irish speakers and you haven't managed to provide a shred of evidence for the claim. Are you going to provide evidence?

DJP

MYOB wrote: »

I have no idea what this tangent you're going off on is about.

You made a claim that the majority of people in the State want to increase the number of Irish speakers and you haven't managed to provide a shred of evidence for the claim. Are you going to provide evidence?

The majority of people as represented politically by our Government and national TD's do. Unpatriotic people have scant representation in the Dáil.

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

The majority of people as represented politically by our Government and national TD's do. Unpatriotic people have scant representation in the Dáil.

As I've said, your argument does not follow through at all. You have no evidence for your claim.

Claiming that people who do not agree with you are "cranks" and "unpatriotic" isn't a particularly valid debating tactic, unless you're a Republican commentator in the US...

DJP

MYOB wrote: »

Claiming that people who do not agree with you are "cranks" and "unpatriotic" isn't a particularly valid debating tactic, unless you're a Republican commentator in the US...

I didn't. I was referring to yourself and anyone else who agrees with statements like this:

MYOB wrote: »

I don't see any justification for retaining Irish on roadsigns outside the Gaeltacht and I don't see any justification for removing English within the Gaeltacht.

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

I didn't. I was referring to yourself and anyone else who agrees with statements like this:

Care to explain how my comment shows me to be a "crank" or "unpatriotic", then?

DJP

MYOB wrote: »

Care to explain how my comment shows me to be a "crank" or "unpatriotic", then?

I'll let you dwell on what you said! I have! Oíche mhaith!

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

I'll let you dwell on what you said! I have! Oíche mhaith!

Once again, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

DJP

I think you should try to get your head around what etchyed was saying to you a couple of pages back.

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

I think you should try to get your head around what etchyed was saying to you a couple of pages back.

I have.

You, however, don't seem to even know what you're trying to say to me at this stage.

Nor have you even attempted to justify your allegations against me.

DJP

Well, then, here I go.

MYOB wrote: »

I don't see any justification for retaining Irish on roadsigns outside the Gaeltacht and I don't see any justification for removing English within the Gaeltacht.

So you don't think that the will of Irish speakers who love the Irish language whose aims as represented by public Irish speaking politicians and officials, Irish language promotional organisations, youth groups both in the Gaeltacht and in some other parts and Co-Op's and which is supported by Government is not justification for our wish for the Irish language to be represented on our road signage throughout the country? Your ideas on patriotism and the Irish language are very different to mine.

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

So you don't think that the will of Irish speakers who love the Irish language whose aims as represented by public Irish speaking politicians and officials, Irish language promotional organisations, youth groups both in the Gaeltacht and in some other parts and Co-Op's and which is supported by Government is not justification for our wish for the Irish language to be represented on our road signage throughout the country? Your ideas on patriotism and the Irish language are very different to mine.

No, I don't think that is justification. A tiny fraction of the population speak Irish as their primary language - to the point that it is not the second most used language anymore - and peoples "love" for a language does not justify the huge costs of pandering to them.

Using it in Gaeltachts is all well and good, but using it outside makes absolutely no sense.

Patriotism does not hinge on whether you feel a connection to a language which was re-imposed on us after the foundation of the State.

Now, do you care to try and explain the "crank" accusation:?

Jayuu

From the Original Post

That username is already in use. wrote: »

This thread is only for discussion on the design of bilingual road signage in Ireland.

This thread is NOT a discussion on the Irish language itself.

Links:

• Design research journal by Garret Reil
  An examination of Ireland’s dual-language road signs.
• Forum: Linguistic Issues - Bilingual road signs
  Huge discussion and examples of bilingual road sign around the world.
• Poor Road Signage Pictures thread

I would like to see your proposals for improved Irish road signage in this thread. You can also post examples from other countries.

I guess we're slightly off the topic. The topic wasn't supposed to be about whether we should have bilingual signs but given that we do have them, whether the current versions could be improved.

DJP

MYOB wrote: »

No, I don't think that is justification. A tiny fraction of the population speak Irish as their primary language - to the point that it is not the second most used language anymore - and peoples "love" for a language does not justify the huge costs of pandering to them.

I am talking about everyone who speaks and loves Irish not only the people to whom Irish is their first language.

MYOB wrote: »

Using it in Gaeltachts is all well and good, but using it outside makes absolutely no sense.

It makes no sense to you because you feel no connection to our Gaeltacht/Gaeilge culture, history and heritage.

MYOB wrote: »

Patriotism does not hinge on whether you feel a connection to a language which was re-imposed on us after the foundation of the State.

Now, do you care to try and explain the "crank" accusation:?

When was it "imposed" on us before 1922?

whenever

If you want to see a good example of idiotic monolingual design have a look at the Dublin Bus online timetable. This shocking document lists each route using street names and places in Irish only. There appears to be a coven of some sort in the publicly funded transport services who think their brief includes some form of indoctrination. No wonder Dublin Bus is in such dire financial straits.

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

I am talking about everyone who speaks and loves Irish not only the people to whom Irish is their first language.

Which is still a tiny fraction of the number of people in the country.

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

It makes no sense to you because you feel no connection to our Gaeltacht/Gaeilge culture, history and heritage.

Seeing as I'm *from* a Gaeltacht, it'd be rather hard to feel no connection to one.

It is not essential to keep the Irish language on life support to retain our culture, history and heritage - they will be there regardless. Similarly, it is not required that road signs are emblazoned with information that absolutely nobody requires.

You have to learn to accept that there are people - who are just as Irish as you are - who disagree with you on this. They are not "unpatriotic" and they most certainly are not "cranks"

DJP

MYOB wrote: »

.



Seeing as I'm *from* a Gaeltacht, it'd be rather hard to feel no connection to one.

To one what?

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

To one what?

To a Gaeltacht.

That sentence was perfectly normally constructed, so I don't see why you're having problems parsing it.

DJP

I said you feel no connection to our Gaeltacht/Gaeilge culture, history and heritage. Seemingly to me anyway. That you are from a Gaeltacht area explains a lot though. Do you care to tell us what Gaeltacht area you are from?

Motorist

Did Clondalkin get it's Gaeltacht status and all the grants that come with that. What ridiculous nonsense that goes on in this country.

http://www.thejournal.ie/clondalkin-could-be-dublins-first-official-gaeltacht-350427-Feb2012/

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

I said you feel no connection to our Gaeltacht/Gaeilge culture, history and heritage. Seemingly to me anyway. That you are from a Gaeltacht area explains a lot though. Do you care to tell us what Gaeltacht area you are from?

Donegal.

Where about 1/4 of the community actually speak Irish - well, sometimes - and the rest speak it when they think you're a grant man or the students are around. Business is conducted entirely in English, even amongst locals.

Go there in the depths of winter and you won't find a word of it being spoken amongst the 3/4.

I'm very much connected to the culture, and its neither reliant on Irish or going to go away if the language does, eventually, die.

DJP

Ahhh, a breac-Gaeltacht area. Probably Gleann Cholm Cille. In fíor-Gaeltacht areas like most of South Connemara, North-West Donegal and West of Dingle a majority of the population speak Irish every day.

The vast majority of our English language placenames in Ireland are anglicizations of the original Irish language name. Are you aware of this?

SeanW

Re: Darren J. Prior: Welcome to the Infrastructure forum, I understand you've never posted here before this for any other reason.

MYOB wrote: »

Now, do you care to try and explain the "crank" accusation:?

I had a quick gander at Darren's posting history and it seems that anyone who disagrees with him is a "crank." Aparently.

L1011

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Ahhh, a breac-Gaeltacht area. Probably Gleann Cholm Cille. In fíor-Gaeltacht areas like most of South Connemara, North-West Donegal and West of Dingle a majority of the population speak Irish every day.

Nope. Extremely North-West Donegal.

You'd be surprised how utterly false the "true" Gaeltachts are if you go beyond the touristy pubs and language colleges.

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

The vast majority of our English language placenames in Ireland are anglicizations of the original Irish language name. Are you aware of this?

Yes. And?

Some of them are anglicisations of Danish (Leixlip, for instance), should we have Danish on the signs for those?

dubhthach

Mod
Folks if you want to have a debate about the status of Irish language take it to the Politics forum. Otherwise I'm going to have to lock the thread.

DJP

MYOB wrote: »

Nope. Extremely North-West Donegal.

You'd be surprised how utterly false the "true" Gaeltachts are if you go beyond the touristy pubs and language colleges.

You still haven't told us what Gaeltacht you are from. Is it Dobhair?

MYOB wrote: »

Yes. And?

Some of them are anglicisations of Danish (Leixlip, for instance), should we have Danish on the signs for those?

The vast majority of them are anglacizations of Irish language names. I am open to the argument that in places where the English or another languages' name is the earliest we have a record of that there should be no Irish language translatation but your "Yes. And?" comment says a lot about yourself. Then again you are a keyboard warrior.

cantalach

Anyone remember the scene in Pulp Fiction where the Latina taxi driver asks the boxer what his name 'Butch' means? He replies, "this is America, honey - our names don't mean sh1t!"

It might be stretching it a bit to say that the Anglicised place names are meaningless. But certainly, without the original Irish on the road signs, there can be a huge loss in fidelity that can make some meanings very difficult to penetrate, even for those of us with relatively good Irish.

One quick example... The 'clon' at the start of 'Clonmel' comes from cluain (= meadow). But the 'clona' at the start of 'Clonakilty' come from cloch na (= stone of the). In the absence of the original Irish form on the signs, this important distinction is completely lost.

I'm not a language fascist by any means. I dream in English. But I think that any reasonable person would find it hard to argue that meaning getting lost in translation is anything other than an erosion of our heritage.

dubhthach

-Mod-

Thread locked -- it's gone off topic which was specifically about the design of the signs.

If ye want to have a debate about etymology take it to Gaeilge or "Linguistics & Etymology" forums. If you want to have a debate about the history of placenames or the decline of the Irish language (Meath na Gaeilge) take it to History forum. Likewise a debate on the continunal status as 1st national language is more relevant to Politics forum