6.7 % rate for the bailout.

TheInquisitor

I had to look 3 times and read the article twice on RTE. If our interest rate is anything close to 6% thats Ireland screwed for decades.

Our country would look like paradise today compared to what it could look like in 10 years if we have to pay those rates. Ireland would be better off going bust than taking a loan. The conditions attached to a rescue aren’t worth it: Once it takes EU money, it will never get off the hook. And the Irish banks aren’t worth saving anyway. Defaulting on your debts is a far less scary prospect than usually portrayed.

THIS CANNOT HAPPEN. Im just shocked , completly shocked at that rate of interest. This is Germany , England and France just trying to protect their banks who are the major bondholders of Ireland and the Irish banks.

Im starting to think this guy is right about defaulting

Ireland would be better off going bust than taking a loan. The conditions attached to a rescue aren’t worth it: Once it takes EU money, it will never get off the hook. And the Irish banks aren’t worth saving anyway. Defaulting on your debts is a far less scary prospect than usually portrayed.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-23/bust-is-better-than-a-bailout-for-irish-patient-matthew-lynn.html

delonglad

bleg wrote: »

"Announce it just before the Toy Show! The plebs will be so focussed on Ryan they'll forget about how ****ed they are!!!"

that isn't even an over statement, its so through. I'm in Eindhoven and I can see whats going on with the country, was talking to a few of the lads on fb and they haven't a clue. Their off to watch toy show or play cod! Country is ****ed!

There needs to be more than protest tomorrow!

bleg

"We can't have an election because it will affect the talks with the IMF/EU."


We'd be better off with those talks "affected."

hotmail.com

bleg wrote: »

6.7% rate rejected:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1126/breaking6.html

This is just reflecting the RTE story.

RealityCheck

My take on it is that its an intentional leak. Would be very surprised if its not between 5 and 6%. Maybe around 5.25%. Now that would be bad but if it does end up at 6.7% there's absolutely no way there will be no soveirgn default. Tall challenge even at <5%.

Correct me if im wrong but isnt 6.7% over 9 years a better rate than 5% greece got over 3 years

Absurdum

RealityCheck wrote: »

My take on it is that its an intentional leak. Would be very surprised if its not between 5 and 6%. Maybe around 5.25%. Now that would be bad but if it does end up at 6.7% there's absolutely no way there will be no soveirgn default. Tall challenge even at <5%.

if this is FF trying to play politics, they deserve to be shot

ArtSmart

bleg wrote: »

6.7% rate rejected:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1126/breaking6.html

nothing reassuring in that article. whatsoever.

eigrod

David McWilliams Tweet "6.7% interest rate will kill us, maybe just spin. govt announce 5%ish on sunday and declare a wonderful victory for their great negotiators"

muletide

poolboy wrote: »

Correct me if im wrong but isnt 6.7% over 9 years a better rate than 5% greece got over 3 years

They got 5.2 I think

tomdeere

poolboy wrote: »

Correct me if im wrong but isnt 6.7% over 9 years a better rate than 5% greece got over 3 years

ya 8 billion a year would be great

Absurdum

bollox to this, I'm hittin the beer and the toy show

Inquitus

Absurdum wrote: »

bollox to this, I'm hittin the beer and the toy show

There's something horribly humbling about watching the toy show with your kids knowing you can't afford to buy any of the cool stuff for them.

Inq

Bob_Latchford

Higher rates of interest are attached to longer loans and the nine-year loan being negotiated on behalf of the State will involve a higher interest rate, as the risk of default is considered to be higher.

So they give us money to stop Ireland defaulting, but priced in the cost of Ireland defaulting. Very reassuring to the markets.

This loan has been touted around the bond markets and markets insisted on the including the cost of insurance and thats why VB panelists got it right.

all imo of course

Absurdum

eigrod wrote: »

David McWilliams Tweet "6.7% interest rate will kill us, maybe just spin. govt announce 5%ish on sunday and declare a wonderful victory for their great negotiators"

Karl Deeter: At this point we have to tell eu 'we won't sign away our future, but we'll sign yours 3% or the EMU Project goes bang'

kaiser sauze

Inquitus wrote: »

I normally agree with your POV Scofflaw, but it seems we will have to draw down a large part of this imminently to recapitalise the banks, and will start to incur punitive interest on that portion immediately. We will then have to begin drawing down a portion of the rest in Q1/2 next year as and when we require funds to run the nation. I don't see any chance of us returning to the bond markets at <6.7% until 2012 or perhaps 2013.

I have generally been relatively optimistic that with austerity and MNC driven export growth we might have had a chance to work our way out of this hole without a need to default. At 6.7% this is clearly impossible. I am beginning to think a structured and orderly default is a better option. If this is the way it pans out, I now fear for my 3 childrens future in this country, and will have to give things 12mths and consider options in the UK.

Kind regards,

Inq

We have €20Bn pre-funded to use as capital for the banks if needed.

A draw down on the bailout loan is not necessarily imminent.

BehindTheScenes

Quote:

On Monday, Merkel defended her position behind closed doors to the parliamentary group of her conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and its Bavarian sister party, the Christian Social Union (CSU). According to sources who took part in the meeting, she said that aid for Ireland was necessary, but had to be tied to conditions. It was important to atone for the sins of the past, she apparently said.

Source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,730578,00.html

This coming from the country that gave us the Nazis. We f@@cked up with money, didn't commit genocide, just took on bank debt.

Anything above 5% and we have problems.

Dotsie~tmp

Absurdum wrote: »

bollox to this, I'm hittin the beer and the toy show

Yeah Im gona go watch the kids of the negotiators play with toys we cant afford for our families.

stackerman

Absurdum wrote: »

Karl Deeter: At this point we have to tell eu 'we won't sign away our future, but we'll sign yours 3% or the EMU Project goes bang'

That should be the line, and we should stick to it. They need us as much as we need them. If they dont like it , its time to default. We may have fcuked things up, but we arent MUGGS :mad:

eigrod

BehindTheScenes wrote: »

This coming from the country that gave us the Nazis. We f@@cked up with money, didn't commit genocide, just took on bank debt.

Just like the IRA, they didn't get what they wanted by use of arms in 2 WWs, so they're now trying the peaceful 'democratic' method.

Butch Cassidy

Why doesn't Elderfield and Honohan have a Twitter! Has anyone the latter's phone number? Gonna need him to clear this shi*e up again

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Bob_Latchford

keving wrote: »

We may have fcuked things up, but we arent MUGGS :mad:

If we walk like mugs, talk like mugs, vote like mugs. You cant blame europe for thinking they can mug us off

puppetmaster

Absurdum wrote: »

Karl Deeter: At this point we have to tell eu 'we won't sign away our future, but we'll sign yours 3% or the EMU Project goes bang'

So True, Why Do we have such a drive to be 'liked' by the rest of europe. Their bailing us out to Prop up the euro and because they all have huge exposure to the irish banks. German banks alone are 40 odd billion in and 50b by RBS.

Stick your 6.7%

kaiser sauze

Sand wrote: »

Right, well thats the final nail in the coffin of the rumours of DoF competence.

Time to default. Not even as a negotiating tactic. Just announce Ireland made a critical error in guaranteeing the banks without knowing how bad things were, under bad advice and under deceit from the banks themselves.

Then strategic defaults, on the NAMA bonds first and foremost with the lightest cuts on the states own bond issues to the open market. Tell the ECB we are happy to work with them to minimise the chaos, but we're defaulting and thats the end of it.

The "markets" will understand, its what they would do under similar circumstances - theyll probably welcome the surprising outbreak of common sense. It wont be easy, but it would have been a damn sight easier if it had been done back in 2008, or even back in September 2010 instead of us wasting time. The banks have always been far too big for the state to save, we did our best, now its time to save ourselves.

Sir, you have an absurd sense of the the way things should be done.

Could I, your humble Taxpayer, employ you to negotiate on our behalf with the people who are supposedly out to "save us"?

When I have your acceptance, I will terminate the employment of the current crew.

Kind Regards

The Taxpayer

murrayp4

If it's 6.7% it's disgusting.
If it's spin, it's disgusting.

EastTexas

Hiya Fellas,
New here and my first post.
American currently in Germany
I’ve been following the developments regarding Ireland with great interest but didn’t register to inject myself into the domestic affairs of another nation, but only hope to gain a better understanding of the situation by talking to the people or being able to ask some questions.

So please excuse, if some of my question may be ignorant
My concern as an outsider would be Irish sovereignty and self determination.
Would this “ bailout” undermine it in the long run?
Is it really a bailout or rather a trip from the fire into the frying pan?
Thanks and Greetz

ET

oppenheimer1

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Not so pro-bailout now, are we?

I was never pro-bailout. I'm only ever pro anything if its in Irelands interests and a bailout, on the right terms, is in our interest. I said if they take our CT rate or charge us a punitive rate of interest we should look elsewhere. It might be embarrassing to the EU but we can go to the IMF alone.

Ireland has to look out for her interests first - alone.

We'll all get our chance to tell the EU what we think in 2012.

eigrod

murrayp4 wrote: »

If it's 6.7% it's disgusting.
If it's spin, it's disgusting.

Disgusting is what FF do best. They've been practicing for 30 years and they've now finally mastered it.

jmayo

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

**** the EU, we should take the IMF rate of 4.5%. At 6.7% that isn't a bailout, we'd be better off taking our chances in the market.

It will be an utter failure of government if that is the final rate and we'll have been sold into servitude. This is simply too expensive and is a self defeating measure.

Care to reappriase you opinion of lenihan ??

DiscoStu wrote: »

I would imagine the slow asphyxiation of the economy will give time for the country to be asset stripped to pay the bondholders. There will be less of an impact on the overall stability of euro if this process can be stretched out over a number of years as opposed to a quick default where they get nothing and the shock might bring down the euro.

Well if they manage to pull that we should scupper any of their future EU treaties.
If they do get our government (being generous in terming them this) to agree to such a bad plan then I will gladly vote for Declan Ganley and Libertas.
Hell I will promote UKIP.

Butch Cassidy wrote: »

Michael Noonan made a comment the other day on Prime Time about being shocked that the IMF were being "kinder" than "our EU friends".

This is just the Europeans punishing us

Well maybe we should teach them we do have a backbone and by God we were the begining of the end for the British Empire and we will do the same for their much shorter lived grandiose Europe.

ff's well paid mouthpiece pretending he is santa claus after that news reminds me of the band playing as the Titantic went down.

oppenheimer1

Bob_Latchford wrote: »

If we walk like mugs, talk like mugs, vote like mugs. You cant blame europe for thinking they can mug us off

But is there anything worse than being ripped off by a "friend"?

Squall19

bleg wrote: »

The EU have really let us down

In 10 years we will be the same, they have destroyed ous

kaiser sauze

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

While a cut in corporate rates would do no harm, a cut, or a moratorium like in The UK, in employer PRSI will do more to stimulate employment.

BehindTheScenes

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Jesus Donegalfella you have me worried now. Your a bit fiscally conservative compared to some and when the conservative guys start saying stuff like this you know you have problems.

Absurdum

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think 6.7% has a nicer ring to it

BehindTheScenes

jmayo wrote: »

Well maybe we should teach them we do have a backbone and by God we were the begining of the end for the British Empire and we will do the same for their much shorter lived grandiose Europe.

Spoken like a true Mayo man.

Bob_Latchford

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

But is there anything worse than being ripped off by a "friend"?

No, its a sickener i was hoping the european political project would see us through. This is ECB calling the shots. Feel like they have cut us lose to the wolves. gutted

kaiser sauze

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I was never pro-bailout. I'm only ever pro anything if its in Irelands interests and a bailout, on the right terms, is in our interest. I said if they take our CT rate or charge us a punitive rate of interest we should look elsewhere. It might be embarrassing to the EU but we can go to the IMF alone.

Ireland has to look out for her interests first - alone.

We'll all get our chance to tell the EU what we think in 2012.

I could be wrong here, but if we refuse the EFSF facility, we may also be refusing the IMF one.

This would mean a complete renegotiation for the new, higher, amount with The IMF.

sollar

EastTexas wrote: »

So please excuse, if some of question may be ignorant
My concern as an outsider would be Irish sovereignty and self determination.
Would this “ bailout” undermine it in the long run?
Is it really a bailout or rather a trip from the fire into the frying pan?
Thanks and Greetz
ET

Its no bailout imo, its exploiting a country in trouble. 6.7% f**king mental.

stackerman

EastTexas wrote: »

My concern as an outsider would be Irish sovereignty and self determination.

ET

This has little effect on the above, IF we stick to our guns and dont bend over . .
This is not about bailing out Ireland, this is about bailing out the Euro project and the banks of the EU. The UK as an example, is not giving us a loan, as a good neighbour (AS THEY LIKE TO SAY). They are doing so because their banks have been as reckless and are in for alot to the Irish banks. If they fall then the knock on will hit them and they are also worried about thousand heading there for work if the crap hits the fan here.

The same logic applies accross the board in the EU.

This is all about saving the EURO

Sand

Anything north of 2-3% is unaffordable. Doesnt matter if its 6.7% or 5% or 25%, if its not 2-3% we havent a hope in hell of affording it.

EastTexas

sollar wrote: »

Its no bailout imo, its exploiting a country in trouble. 6.7% f**king mental.

Thanks, my gut-feeling also, besides being highly suspicious of the Euro project to begin with.

oppenheimer1

jmayo wrote: »

Care to reappriase you opinion of lenihan ??

If this turns out to be true, I'll gladly reappraise my opinion of him... not only that I'll PM you a link to the post.

I hope it isn't true and I also hope it isn't a cynical ploy if a better rate is revealed or worse I hope it wasn't made up by people wanting to encourage a violent protest tomorrow.

bleg

keving wrote: »

This has little effect on the above, IF we stick to our guns and dont bend over . .
This is not about bailing out Ireland, this is about bailing out the Euro project and the banks of the EU. The UK as an example, is not giving us a loan, as a good neighbour (AS THEY LIKE TO SAY). They are doing so because their banks have been as reckless and are in for alot to the Irish banks. If they fall then the knock on will hit them and they are also worried about thousand heading there for work if the crap hits the fan here.

The same logic applies accross the board in the EU.

This is all about saving the EURO

The euro should be saved but the rates being offered to us are the equivalent to a stabbing in the back.

Freiheit

Michael Noonan said that 'the smart economy was being spoken of by some of the biggest fools the country has ever produced......'.....fools does not do them justice...I'm simply lost for words.....Think Donegalfella was right...this deal must be rejected as it will lead us to slavery and ruin.

stackerman

bleg wrote: »

The euro should be saved but the rates being offered to us are the equivalent to a stabbing in the back.

I agree

stackerman

EastTexas wrote: »

Thanks, my gut-feeling also, besides being highly suspicious of the Euro project to begin with.

As an aside, do you think the US can just print money to get out of their problems

EastTexas

keving wrote: »

This has little effect on the above, IF we stick to our guns and dont bend over . .
This is not about bailing out Ireland, this is about bailing out the Euro project and the banks of the EU. The UK as an example, is not giving us a loan, as a good neighbour (AS THEY LIKE TO SAY). They are doing so because their banks have been as reckless and are in for alot to the Irish banks. If they fall then the knock on will hit them and they are also worried about thousand heading there for work if the crap hits the fan here.

The same logic applies accross the board in the EU.

This is all about saving the EURO

Thanks, I also think it is to save the Euro, at the expense of the people living there.
When Germany bailed out Greece, didn’t they actually bail out their own banks?
Rather an act of self interest?

Mayo Exile

Interesting little piece on Bloomberg today. It illustrates what the alternative is rather than accepting a loan at 6.7% or anything near it in order to bail out our banks.

Iceland Is No Ireland as State Free of Bank Debt, Grimsson Says

Iceland’s President Olafur R. Grimsson said his country is better off than Ireland thanks to the government’s decision to allow the banks to fail two years ago and because the krona could be devalued.

“The difference is that in Iceland we allowed the banks to fail,” Grimsson said in an interview with Bloomberg Television’s Mark Barton today. “These were private banks and we didn’t pump money into them in order to keep them going; the state did not shoulder the responsibility of the failed private banks.”

Ireland’s Prime Minister Brian Cowen said this week his government has discussed an 85 billion-euro ($112 billion) bailout with the European Union and International Monetary Fund after the country’s banks threatened to bring the euro member to the brink of bankruptcy. Iceland’s banks, which still owe creditors about $85 billion, were split to create domestic units needed to keep the financial system running, while foreign liabilities remained within the failed lenders.

As a consequence, “Iceland is faring much better than anybody expected,” Grimsson said. The Icelandic state’s liability on foreign depositor claims stemming from Icesave accounts at failed Landsbanki Islands hf should be put to a national referendum, he said.

“How far can we ask ordinary people -- farmers and fishermen and teachers and doctors and nurses -- to shoulder the responsibility of failed private banks,” said Grimsson. “That question, which has been at the core of the Icesave issue, will now be the burning issue in many European countries.”

Accept Losses

Iceland is relying on a $4.6 billion IMF-led loan to rebuild its economy. Grimsson said today the government may not need the entire amount.

Bondholders of European banks should be prepared to accept losses because voters are becoming increasingly unwilling and unable to fund bailouts, FXPro Financial Services Ltd. said in a Nov. 24 note.

“The taxpayer has no realistic prospect of being able to save their banks, such is the magnitude of their bad loans and their extraordinary dependence on central bank support,” wrote Michael Derks, chief strategist in London at foreign-exchange firm FXPro. “Both junior and senior bondholders in these insolvent banks need to suffer huge haircuts,” he said.

Forcing bond holders to “share the burden,” may help the euro region remain intact, Derks wrote.

Junk

Grimsson, who said Iceland’s talks to join the European Union are ongoing, in January this year blocked a $5.2 billion deal to cover British and Dutch depositor claims stemming from Icesave accounts. The move prompted Fitch Ratings to downgrade the island’s debt to “junk” as a normalization of international relations grew more remote. Iceland’s Finance Ministry on Nov. 16 said the country may now be weeks away from a “final resolution” to the Icesave dispute as it secures broad lawmaker backing for a new accord.

Kaupthing Bank hf, Landsbanki and Glitnir Bank hf failed within weeks of each other in October 2008 after they were unable to secure short-term funding. The banking crisis led to an 80 percent slump in the krona against the euro offshore, until the slump was stemmed by the introduction of capital controls at the end of 2008.

peasant

Freiheit wrote: »

what can we as ordinary citizens do about this????:mad:

There would always be the option of a good, oldfashioned general strike.

Turn off the lights and power in the middle of a freezing cold snap and lights would have to come on pretty sharp-ish in some heads.