Selling a lemon to a friend :(

cormie

Hi,
I sold an old car, 95 Suzuki Cultus, Jap Import to a friends mother just last month. As far as I was aware, all it needed was a new exhaust which I told her and everything else seemed fine. She didn't have the money yet but I gave her the car and got paid 2 and a half weeks later. Then just a week ago (3.5 weeks after she first got it) it developed a problem with the gear box. The gear box seemed fine upon selling but she had it taken to a mechanic who said it needed a new gear box and water filter which would cost about 1,000 euro so wouldn't be worth it.

Had this been someone I didn't know, it would be a simple case of caveat emptor I guess, but this is a bit different. I'm trying to agree something fair with the mother as I've been in the position before of buying something (sometimes even going over my purchase budget) only to find out it needs a lot of work and ends up costing a fortune.

I was only told about the work it needed done yesterday and then today I was told that since then, it's now pretty much not drivable at all.

They still want a car but I guess were both going to have to take a hit on this.

I was told today that there is a place off the Killeen Road in Dublin that will pay 100eur for a car if you bring it in to them, does anyone know if this is true for any car regardless of make/year etc? It should make it another 20km from where it is to the Killeen road I reckon but is this really the best option I wonder?

If anyone could advise on the best course of action to take I'd appreciate it

Rockery Woman

Do people really expect to get an old car (Im sure its lovely looking) and expect there to be no problems with it???

Its 15 years old - things will be worn out, it will break down, thats life when you choose to buy an older car!

VolvoMan

Rockery Woman wrote: »

Its 15 years old - things will be worn out, it will break down, thats life when you choose to buy an older car!

^^Typical Irish attitude imo; assuming a car becomes rubbish when it's 15 years old.

Nonoperational

Ah in fairness it's still pretty likely there will be a few worn components in a 15 yr old Suzuki Cultus.

Rockery Woman

VolvoMan wrote: »

^^Typical Irish attitude imo; assuming a car becomes rubbish when it's 15 years old.

So you would buy a 15 year old car and expect no parts to be worn out? I didn't presume the car was rubbish, its probably a decent-enough car but as cars get older you can expect problems to arise.

A 15 year old car won't be as reliable as a new one - thats fact - not attitude, Irish or otherwise!

Mahatma coat

Tell your Friends MAm that She's too Hard on Cars, Point out to her that the car survived for 15 years not Requiring a new Gearbox and You Even drove it yerself and Saw nothing wrong with it.

I'ts a bit of a telltale sign that she's one of them AulWans that Wrecks Cars in a matter of Weeks, Half Clutching, Missing Gears, Grinding the Teeth off whatever gewars are left, she probably rests her foot on the Clutch Pedal too, there are a few of them still out there.

Serioulsy this is why even when you are doing a deal with mates its best to get a RWC before you hand over the Car, then its Caveat Emptor all the way.

Suggest to yer Friends Mam that She buy an Automatic next time

VolvoMan

Rockery Woman wrote: »

So you would buy a 15 year old car and expect no parts to be worn out?

If it was a regularly maintained one, then no, I wouldn't expect many parts to be worn out.

A 15 year old car won't be as reliable as a new one - thats fact - not attitude, Irish or otherwise!

That's where you're wrong. With cars of that era there was far less electronickerey and therefore a lot less to go wrong. A 1995 Toyota Corolla for instance would be nigh on indestructible, whereas with an Auris of today the throttle pedal would be getting stuck and various other niggly things going wrong.

Another example would be a diesel engined car of that era. Back then they had no DPF's to go wrong and they were so robust and simple in some cases that you could run them on veggie oil.

Seweryn

VolvoMan wrote: »

That's where you're wrong. With cars of that era there was far less electronickerey and therefore a lot less to go wrong. A 1995 Toyota Corolla for instance would be nigh on indestructible, whereas with an Auris of today the throttle pedal would be getting stuck and various other niggly things going wrong.
Another example would be a diesel engined car of that era. Back then they had no DPF's to go wrong and they were so robust and simple in some cases that you could run them on veggie oil.

I agree with you. I was driving a 25-year old car for 3 years (I sold it this year), covered almost 50 thousand km and nothing ever went wrong with it (a bulb maybe). The car only needed a regular service and fuel (as every new car).
Now I drive a 20-year old car with 450k km on the clock and the situation is not much different. If the car is serviced it will be as reliable as new one or more, as there are less complicated bits to go wrong.

corktina

I would say to her that you honestly didnt know there was anything wrong with the box, that you are sorry and are WILLING to refund her money if she thinks you deliberately sold her a lemon. Ball in her court then....

galwaytt

Rockery Woman wrote: »

A 15 year old car won't be as reliable as a new one - thats fact - not attitude, Irish or otherwise!

Garbage, frankly.

My 17 yr old, 165,000 mile car is better, and has outlived, qualititavely, both an 02 Mazda diesel and and 07 Galaxy.

There is NO evidence imho of ANY improvement in quality of newer vehicles, over time. Indeed, anecdotal evidence is to the contrary.

pajo1981

galwaytt wrote: »

Garbage, frankly.

My 17 yr old, 165,000 mile car is better, and has outlived, qualititavely, both an 02 Mazda diesel and and 07 Galaxy.

There is NO evidence imho of ANY improvement in quality of newer vehicles, over time. Indeed, anecdotal evidence is to the contrary.

Check out stats on problems provided by fleet manager, breakdown companies etc..., and you'll see that modern cars are infinitely more reliable than cars from 15 years ago.

mantaman

cormie wrote: »

Hi,
I sold an old car, 95 Suzuki Cultus, Jap Import to a friends mother just last month. As far as I was aware, all it needed was a new exhaust which I told her and everything else seemed fine. She didn't have the money yet but I gave her the car and got paid 2 and a half weeks later. Then just a week ago (3.5 weeks after she first got it) it developed a problem with the gear box. The gear box seemed fine upon selling but she had it taken to a mechanic who said it needed a new gear box and water filter which would cost about 1,000 euro so wouldn't be worth

What's a water filter?

peasant

mantaman wrote: »

What's a water filter?

However ...what that is supposed to be doing in a car is beyond me too

cormie

Thanks for the replies folks. My friend told me it was a water filter, but I think it may be the air filter she was talking about as the housing and tube for this needed repair when I sold it too.

Do you think it could be a case that it just wasn't driven properly for the 3 weeks and therefore developed the gearbox fault? I didn't notice anything off with it myself and when I was selling it I had two potential buyers who seemed to know a bit about cars test drive it and check it over (one who pointed out the exhaust problem to me which I was unaware of) and neither said anything about the gear box. Is this a problem that can surface quickly with no signs and immobilise the car within a week or so of showing trouble?

Can anyone suggest what the best option to do with the car would be now that it's probably too late to save and she will probably just have to get what she can for it. Does anyone know of this place that will pay €100 for a car and issue a scrap cert or do a change of ownership or what other options would she have to get rid of it but still get something from it?

Thanks again for the replies!

BostonB

Maybe shop around and see if you can get a cheaper price on the gear box and water filter. I wouldn't reply on the opinion of just just one mechanic. If you could get the repair bill down to 5 or 600 you might offer to pay half the bill as good will and help them drop it off collect it.

Maybe ask somewhere like http://www.mrgearboxmrclutch.ie ? I've not used them myself.



Buying any car it might have a problem the next day. My mechanic bought my old car once, he'd been servicing it for 3yrs. A week later the head gasket blew. Thats life.

cormie

Thanks for the suggestion. The car itself was sold for 450 so to spend 500 or 600 on a gear box alone would be a tad excessive. It will also need an exhaust for the NCT and a few other little bits.

hairyman

A gearbox for a 95 Suzuki Swift and a filter costing a grand,,,:eek::eek::eek:.

She is being led down the garden path mate, time for a second opinion if you ask me.

Im assuming its a manual and in that case a 5 thrower from its swift/Baleno counterpart will drop straight in,,,,no shortage of these boxes and a good used one can be got for 100 lids with about 2-250 labour for installation.

As for the filter, sounds like this mechanic is really trying to baffle the woman!



with regards to Old vs New,
I will never ever buy any car that has to be plugged in to be fixed, I have had my time with newer cars and they simply do not make them like they used to.

Guy:Incognito

VolvoMan wrote: »

^^Typical Irish attitude imo; assuming a car becomes rubbish when it's 15 years old.

Regardless of how well its looked after, certain car parts wear and will need replacing eventually.

BostonB

Yes but you'd only be paying 250 each. Which might be more acceptable to both parties than one of you paying 500 or another 1000 for another car. which might then itself have other problems, once you drive it a bit.

I have an old 11yr old car as a runabout which needs a good few repairs. I was thinking of selling and buying something else, but every mechanic I asked, basically said to me, I could be buying new problems with a different car. At least the car I have is a known thing. The devil you know and all that. We've had this car since new. Its a very basic car, but its been utterly reliable for years. I feel I owe it a bit of TLC.

We bought 06 VW last year and the ABS went after 6 months which was a 1k repair. Luckily it was bough with a warranty. But it shows you might have other problems in a different (and newer) car.

I'm assuming you to keep on the good side of the other party here. Which changes everything tbh.

BostonB

Stekelly wrote: »

Regardless of how well its looked after, certain car parts wear and will need replacing eventually.

True. Alternators, shocks, discs, bushings etc. But once they are done, they shouldn't go again for a long time. Electronic and ECU problems though you might never resolve. There doesn't seem to a good level of knowledge about repairing these.

cormie

Thanks again for the replies

I'd like to just present the other party with options, they choose which to go with and then I can give a slight refund.

If the scrapping plan was the chosen one, does anyone have a bit more concrete information on where to go, price etc?

hairyman

What's the overall condition and mileage of the car, I know its 15 years old but does it need to go to the scrapper?
Generally these are a good dependable car, Is it a 1.0L 3 cylinder?

cormie

Yeah I think it's a 3 cylinder, 1lt definitely, there's a small hole in the exhaust, tyres are all relatively fine, everything else seems ok too considering it's age. I'm not too up on the mechanics of a vehicle and I didn't drive this one enough to know anything about it but in the time I drove it when I was selling it, it seemed fine.

hairyman

Get on to a breakers yard and price the gearbox,filter box and the section of the exhaust needed.
Then get a price for the work, these cars a very straight forward to work on and I am sure the exhaust and filter could be undertaken by yourself.

Once you have a figure of costs then your decision should become clear.

shamwari

Those swift / cultus do have soft gearboxes. I've replaced quite a few, especially for jumping out of gear when driving along. Those 3cyl engines are great and will outlast the rest of the car if looked after.

VolvoMan

Stekelly wrote: »

Regardless of how well its looked after, certain car parts wear and will need replacing eventually.

If they are replaced when they should be then I don't see why a 15 year old car will be any more worn out than a 5 year old one.

15 years ago was the golden era of motoring imo; the cars had just enough technology in them to not be overly complex. If people are saying that modern cars are 'infinitely more reliable' then why not try explaining failing electronic parking brakes in Passats amongst other useless, unnecessary technology that is in the cars of today?

cormie

Thanks again for the replies Would any of you like to buy it?

To be honest, I don't think I'm in a position to make the call on what to do with it. I'd just like to present the options to the buyer and let them make that decision and we can agree a fair refund between us.

I'll show them the suggestions of the breakers yard replacement repair option but also, if anyone has information on anywhere who will pay for such a car I'd appreciate any info so I can pass this on too.

Given that the buyer has had a months use, that it was taxed etc and still has valid tax, that they bought it for 450 and I told them everything I knew about the car and this problem only surfaced after 3 weeks of them driving it, what would be considered a fair refund? I had in mind to give 200 back.

Big Nasty

Here's what I would do:

If it was a private sale and you honestly knew nothing about the box issue then caveat emptor applies.

If it's a family friend and you sold the car in good faith it's still a case of caveat emptor but as you know yourself that doesn't work in these scenarios. IF the problem can be sorted for cq. €350 I (personally) would explain that it's not your fault, you sold the car in good faith believing that it was in good condition, that general ware and tare can occur at any time (i.e. it's not your responsibility in any shape or form) BUT out of goodwill you will meet them halfway on the repair costs (€175).

bazz26

A little late now and probably of little use to the OP but rule of thumb is never sell or buy a car to/from a relative, friend or pretty much anyone you know. It will only end in disaster any problems with the car you will hear about either directly or indirectly meaning you will feel obliged to fix or fall out with relatives.

I'd nearly give her the money back and take whatever you can get for the car as scrap. At least then you will never hear about it again.

hairyman

bazz26 wrote: »

A little late now and probably of little use to the OP but rule of thumb is never sell or buy a car to/from a relative, friend or pretty much anyone you know. It will only end in disaster any problems with the car you will hear about either directly or indirectly meaning you will feel obliged to fix or fall out with relatives.

I'd nearly give her the money back and take whatever you can get for the car as scrap. At least then you will never hear about it again.

On the button,,:)

My dad keeps pestering me about helping him to choose a new car, not a hope!!

dellas1979

bazz26 wrote: »

A little late now and probably of little use to the OP but rule of thumb is never sell or buy a car to/from a relative, friend or pretty much anyone you know. It will only end in disaster any problems with the car you will hear about either directly or indirectly meaning you will feel obliged to fix or fall out with relatives.

I'd nearly give her the money back and take whatever you can get for the car as scrap. At least then you will never hear about it again.

This seems like the best option. Its fair, and you can still make a few quid - albeit not alot, but you wont loose any friends either.

dgt

Rockery Woman wrote: »

So you would buy a 15 year old car and expect no parts to be worn out? I didn't presume the car was rubbish, its probably a decent-enough car but as cars get older you can expect problems to arise.

A 15 year old car won't be as reliable as a new one - thats fact - not attitude, Irish or otherwise!

We got an 85 Merc 280SE 2 years ago, 161k miles, lying in a barn for 9 years. New plugs, new fuel pump and fresh petrol. One spin and it sprang to life. It was even able to drive. A 94 Tempra we have, 196k miles, left outside and not started since last year, 2 weeks ago put a battery in and turned the key. Started like the day we got it. My 89 BMW 525i, 147k miles, left outside, started 1st time after 8 months lying up, drives perfect. My 99 Bravo, never failed to start once despite it being a heavily abused car by its previous owners. A 98 Seicento we have, got in 2008, left lying up till feb this year. New battery in and turned the key. And what happens? It starts first time. We have a car in the garage lying up since 1990 and I cant wait to see it start up to further prove this wrong

I have never in my life heard such utter rubbish, would a 10 reg car start like that after 23 years? Itd prob light up a load of warning lights and fail to even turn... Nowadays, most new cars have an average usable life of 12 - 15 years, they aint built like they used to be!

Rockery Woman

dgt wrote: »

We got an 85 Merc 280SE 2 years ago, 161k miles, lying in a barn for 9 years. New plugs, new fuel pump and fresh petrol. One spin and it sprang to life. It was even able to drive. A 94 Tempra we have, 196k miles, left outside and not started since last year, 2 weeks ago put a battery in and turned the key. Started like the day we got it. My 89 BMW 525i, 147k miles, left outside, started 1st time after 8 months lying up, drives perfect. My 99 Bravo, never failed to start once despite it being a heavily abused car by its previous owners. A 98 Seicento we have, got in 2008, left lying up till feb this year. New battery in and turned the key. And what happens? It starts first time. We have a car in the garage lying up since 1990 and I cant wait to see it start up to further prove this wrong

I have never in my life heard such utter rubbish, would a 10 reg car start like that after 23 years? Itd prob light up a load of warning lights and fail to even turn... Nowadays, most new cars have an average usable life of 12 - 15 years, they aint built like they used to be!

Why did you leave all those cars laid up for so long? Just wondering - why on earth would you keep buying old cars, leave them idle for so long then decide one day to actually use them? Your garage/barn must be HUGE!

Its nice to read something positive about Fiat cars too.

Capt'n Midnight

hairyman wrote: »

A gearbox for a 95 Suzuki Swift and a filter costing a grand,,,:eek::eek::eek:.

She is being led down the garden path mate, time for a second opinion if you ask me.

Im assuming its a manual and in that case a 5 thrower from its swift/Baleno counterpart will drop straight in,,,,no shortage of these boxes and a good used one can be got for 100 lids with about 2-250 labour for installation.

Had to get a gear box changed a while back, and between the scrapyard and garage it was €250 and that was at the height of the boom

Phone around

cormie

Thanks again for the replies. Would be great to get it sorted for 250, but I'm not sure how possible that would be

Does anyone know the name/address of anywhere that will take such a car and give the owner 100eur or whatever the price may be?

Capt'n Midnight

try adverts.ie

jimbooth

part of life, Old cars break down !
as a private seller you are not legally obliged to give any guarantee or warranty, ( I know its a friends mum ) the buyer bought it as is and the car obviously drove fine for a couple of weeks at least.
as for €1000 for a gear box !! Rip off! shop around you should get one for 200 to 300 ish

biko

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the suggestion. The car itself was sold for 450 so to spend 500 or 600 on a gear box alone would be a tad excessive. It will also need an exhaust for the NCT and a few other little bits.

I don't think so. Considering the price of a new car, if she buys it for 450 and spends up to 1000 on it she still only spent 1450 on a car the may well last 5 years or more.

dgt

dgt wrote: »

I have never in my life heard such utter rubbish, would a 10 reg car start like that after 23 years? Itd prob light up a load of warning lights and fail to even turn... Nowadays, most new cars have an average usable life of 12 - 15 years, they aint built like they used to be!

Starting after being laid up for a few years and being reliable are not at all the same thing

hairyman

dgt wrote: »

We got an 85 Merc 280SE 2 years ago, 161k miles, lying in a barn for 9 years. New plugs, new fuel pump and fresh petrol. One spin and it sprang to life. It was even able to drive. A 94 Tempra we have, 196k miles, left outside and not started since last year, 2 weeks ago put a battery in and turned the key. Started like the day we got it. My 89 BMW 525i, 147k miles, left outside, started 1st time after 8 months lying up, drives perfect. My 99 Bravo, never failed to start once despite it being a heavily abused car by its previous owners. A 98 Seicento we have, got in 2008, left lying up till feb this year. New battery in and turned the key. And what happens? It starts first time. We have a car in the garage lying up since 1990 and I cant wait to see it start up to further prove this wrong

I have never in my life heard such utter rubbish, would a 10 reg car start like that after 23 years? Itd prob light up a load of warning lights and fail to even turn... Nowadays, most new cars have an average usable life of 12 - 15 years, they aint built like they used to be!

I do love the simplicity of older cars but would never go as far as to say that they are better built/more reliable than their newer counterparts.
Newer cars are a result of what we the consumer have demanded, we want airbags,traction,cruise,climate and all the electronic bells and whistles that have the potential for costly and drastic repairs. There is also no doubt in my mind that many of the newer marques on the road are indeed capable of doing the big mileage that the older cars can and have done.
We just seem to have embedded it in to our thoughts that once a car hits the 100K mark that its going to be unreliable and cost a fortune to run(no thanks to the dealers scaring the ****e out of people with their,,WELL ITS MILEAGE IS A BIT ON THE HEAVY SIDE, SO ITS GOING TO BE HARD FOR ME TO SHIFT ON attitude).
The next ten years is going to go along way to proving how reliable(or indeed, unreliable) these newer cars really are.

TouchingVirus

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the replies. Would be great to get it sorted for 250, but I'm not sure how possible that would be

Does anyone know the name/address of anywhere that will take such a car and give the owner 100eur or whatever the price may be?

Do you want it fixed or do you want it scrapped? Because that's the 3rd time you mentioned finding a place that'd pay you to junk your car.

cormie

It's not up to me I'm just going to present the different options to the buyer and let them decide, but I'd like to say "you can definitely get €100 for it this way" if you get me

If I sold that car to a friend for €450 and the gearbox failed I'd give them back €200 for the sake of an easy life.

cormie

That's exactly the figure I had in mind, I think it's pretty fair.

L-M

I remember that car on adverts, for €450 to expect any sort of warranty or comeback is unbelievable. The fact you sold it to a friend is just unlucky.

I'd say to her that you'd pay the labour, or pay for the part. One or the other.

cormie

Thanks for the suggestion Have agreed on me giving back 200 plus I'd help out IF it needs to be towed to either mechanic or scrap if it can't be driven there by herself. I think that's quite fair and they seemed happy with that too I'd say it would be a hopeless case to get that, or even a cent back off an unknown seller or even a garage.

hadook

cormie wrote: »

It's not up to me I'm just going to present the different options to the buyer and let them decide, but I'd like to say "you can definitely get €100 for it this way" if you get me

I scrapped a car last week & my local breakers paid 100 per ton (so I got 120 for a mazda 323)

cormie

Interesting, I see you're in Meath, can I ask where the breakers was? Could fill it with snow and get a bit more maybe :P

cormie

Just to update, went to give the €200 back so it's all sorted now but I found out that it wasn't a "water filter", but a waterpump kit, which comprises of timing belt and a few other things? She was told this would be about 450/500 and then the gear box would be around 500 too which makes up the 1,000 quote.

The mechanic said the waterpump is "about to go" and this is the reason the car is making noise in 2nd/3rd gear. It hasn't gone yet, but is about to go. Does anyone know anything about this Kit? Can it be got in individual parts or does the whole kit have to be replaced etc?

Also, my other friend (some of you may remember my thread on a friend who had a collision with a biker) has a suzuki alto for scrap, I was just thinking, is there any way at all that the gear box of a Suzuki Alto, would be the same as the Cultus/Swift? Alto is a 97, cultus/swift a 95.

She also said that when the gearbox problem arose, the car began to jolt forward a bit, say if she was in slow moving traffic, she'd have to wait for the car in front to get a good distance before she could move off because the car would just jolt forward.

She also said there was a strange feeling in the clutch. I forget what she said exactly, so don't want to say anything that could lead to a wrong diagnostic, but could the feeling of the clutch be affected by a gearbox/waterpump issue, or could this be a separate issue?

Also, if anyone knows of a scrapyard in South Dublin area who, like the one Hadook mentioned, will pay by weight of the car, please share

L-M

Cormie for your own sake take that car back and scrap it, it's not worth it. You'll get €40 or €50 quid for it I'd assume.

Gary ITR

Limerick man wrote: »

Cormie for your own sake take that car back and scrap it, it's not worth it. You'll get €40 or €50 quid for it I'd assume.

+1, if not you'll always be 'that fecker who sold me a piece of scrap'. If it was me I'd have taken it back the minute these problems arose. If you had sold it on to a stranger, 'caveat emptor' and all that but you sold it to a friend