project maths

loveroflight

Wondering how others are getting on with Project Maths. A big change and a lot of work but now that I've started, I'm quite enjoying the changed methods. So far no complaints from the students.

doc_17

The inservice courses are a disgrace imo. SOME of the stuff they do at them is stupid. The course itself is grand but it is definitely dumbing it down

evolving_doors

Have to say the inservices were ok, at the end of the day the learning is mostly in the doing/teaching anyway ...the guys giving it are just trying their best while the naysayers try and disrupt the class.. get with the program people..

as regards dumbing it down.. how intelligent is it to rattle off learned algorithms without any critical thinking going on..
. rather than parrot off predictable answers, students will actually have to problem solve (in the proper sense) and justify their answers.. god help a student who finds english difficult though, I'd say it'll be a different type of student who will do well..

I find it really hard to get students to think outside the box... they expect the notes/formulas/calculators/grinds/easy answers .... there's mass hysteria if a photograph appears on an exam question, so a change is badly needed.. it's nothing to do with the syllabus and more to do with teachers comfort zones. The days of talk and chalk are over really.

I was talking to a teacher at a PM course who had been teaching for 30 years and he said for the first time in his whole career he has been 'challenged' as to how to teach laterally/logically/critically without the rote learning emphasis,, he was worried as hell but glad to be...

A good deal of teachers seem to be 'in denial' and leaving the project maths aspects of the course till 3rd year and 6th year.

doc_17

You can't leave the Project maths JC stuff until 3rd year as the NCCA have laid down a course of content that all first years musst do. Those people would want to watch that they don't an inspection...

As regards dumbing it down.....just wait to see how many more do it at LC HL. That is where the story utimately will be told. They are making it easier....I don't care what anyone says.

I participated fully at the inservices and wasn't a naysayer but one small example of how useless they were came when we asked what were the topics on LC Corodinate Geometry that were removed/added and the facilitator said he couldn't tell us. What is it? A State Secret!?

I did like some elements of the inservice but I firmly believe that it is the quality of the Maths teachers we have that will/will not ultimatey lift the standard in the schools.

And the third level sector blame us which always annoys me because they are not without blame.

evolving_doors

doc_17 wrote: »

.....just wait to see how many more do it at LC HL. That is where the story utimately will be told. They are making it easier....I don't care what anyone says.

It may be hard to tell with as a result of the bonus points coming in how many will do honours... I reckon a celling has been reached on what % of students do hons maths so possibly if the workload is eased then the figures will be 'massaged' upwards

doc_17 wrote: »

You can't leave the Project maths JC stuff until 3rd year as the NCCA have laid down a course of content that all first years must do. Those people would want to watch that they don't an inspection...

True indeed, but then again what are the inspectors going to do ..shut the school down,, the NCCA can only give guidelines, a school can do whatever it wants really ..

doc_17 wrote: »

I did like some elements of the inservice but I firmly believe that it is the quality of the Maths teachers we have that will/will not ultimatey lift the standard in the schools.
.

that may be part of it... but really.. could Einstein teach any better if rote learning under time constraints is the aim of the game?..does it matter about the quality of maths teaching in primary schools?

doc_17

Armelodie wrote: »

True indeed, but then again what are the inspectors going to do ..shut the school down,, the NCCA can only give guidelines, a school can do whatever it wants really ..


that may be part of it... but really.. could Einstein teach any better if rote learning under time constraints is the aim of the game?..does it matter about the quality of maths teaching in primary schools?

As far as I'm aware this is more that an a guideline

The quality of Maths teaching at primary level is, imo, as important as the quality of maths teachers in second level.

evolving_doors

doc_17 wrote: »

As far as I'm aware this is more that an a guideline

Nope.. the NCCA can only issue guidelines and recommendations .check out their website and handbooks ("guidelines for teachers").. it's up to the teachers/school to teach whatever way they see fit..
Dept of ed only pays the wages..the school is the boss..
of course after an inspection they can be critical all they want and it might look bad publicly (on the net anyway)

Doesn't necessarily mean I agree with teachers leaving the Proj. Maths. stuff till as late as possible though!!

doc_17 wrote: »

The quality of Maths teaching at primary level is, imo, as important as the quality of maths teachers in second level.

Totally agree, are 'times tables' gone out of fashion these days?

doc_17

I just checked that out about the first year course. It's the Project schools that are compelled to follow the syllabus laid down by the NCCA and they have no choice in it. The rest of us are free to follow whatever syllabus we want. Youi were right!

MathsManiac

According to "Rules and Programme", if the inspectors are not satisfied with the "quality of instruction" in the school, the Department could withdraw the school's recognition.

Might be a rather extreme reaction

(But perhaps it is enough of a stick to allow the DES to direct school management to direct their teachers to do what they're supposed to do.)

majo

Does anyone know where to find a marking scheme for the Project Maths Higher Level Leaving Cert sample paper 2010? The project maths website directs you to the NCCA but they only seem to provide the sample paper and not the marking scheme.

evolving_doors

majo wrote: »

Does anyone know where to find a marking scheme for the Project Maths Higher Level Leaving Cert sample paper 2010? The project maths website directs you to the NCCA but they only seem to provide the sample paper and not the marking scheme.

They're on examinations.ie (material archive)(marking schemes)(blah blah )

they're's 2 mathematics options on the drop down menu.. just choose the 2nd
..

evolving_doors

MathsManiac wrote: »

According to "Rules and Programme", if the inspectors are not satisfied with the "quality of instruction" in the school, the Department could withdraw the school's recognition.

Might be a rather extreme reaction

(But perhaps it is enough of a stick to allow the DES to direct school management to direct their teachers to do what they're supposed to do.)

Even if teachers decide to leave PM till as late as possible in their scheme o' work, would this affect the 'Quality of instruction'? Even in a PM pilot school the quality of instruction could be 'in theory' quite poor!!

What teachers are 'supposed' to do in the eyes of the dept is to cover the curse..once the course gets covered then the job is OXO...although leaving PM stuff till the end may not be the best way of going about it....

then again who's to say.. I reckon we won't be able to analyse the true outcomes of PM until after about 8 years or so when a few streams of 1st year Secondary students have progressed through a 3rd level course... planning and evaluating curriculum change I reckon takes at least 13 years.

majo

Thanks for reply. but what I'm finding on examinations.ie is the marking scheme for the actual 2010 Project Maths exam paper. I'm looking for marking scheme for the sample paper which was issued earlier in the year. Can find M. scheme for the "pre Leaving Cert" paper ok on ncca.ie, but not for the sample paper.

evolving_doors

Doh!, Apologies.. It's hard to find alright.. I'm almost sure it used be up on the PM website .. maybe there were too many arguments about the marking scheme!!!

MathsManiac

I'm pretty sure it was never up on the PM website. It does not appear to have been made available at any stage as a standalone document. However, the report on the trialling of the sample papers incorporates the solutions and marking schemes used.

However, the final versions were slightly different from the trialled drafts, so there are a couple of bits and pieces on the final one that you won't have a marking scheme for.

They normally don't issue marking schemes for sample papers by the way. I think you only get them if there's been some sort of trialling done with the papers.

majo

Thanks to you both. I knew I came across it sometime recently but was begining to doubt my capacity for recall! This new method of marking is so different, isn't it!

loveroflight

I'm a little concerned about how probable it can be to get zero marks for some of the attempted answers.

majo

The whole method of marking is quite questionable, in my view e.g. the concept that, on occasions, you award no marks even when part of an answer is correct (justified as being because one correct section without a pattern of others also being correct is just down to chance and so may merit no marks) will really discourage the weaker student. Mind you there was also a start on this type of thinking in this year's H.L. Leaving Cert marking. Some hit/miss marks awarded and also one section where one error resulted in just attempt marks after that.

whiteandlight

I'm teaching it for the last two years. If anyone has questions or worries give me a pm and I'll try and help. A couple of things from my experience:

1. This is by no means a dumbing down of the curriculum. Ask the students, and even the teachers in project schools. The type of questions are far far more challenging than previous exams where you could pretty much quote what would be in every question. This lack of choice/unknown layout of questions will make this subject difficult for students. I will also point out that our students are used to rote learning in almost every subject so they find "problem solving" which is a huge element of project maths very difficult. As an example take a look at this from the OL Sample paper just released.
Q6A:
(a) Explain what is meant by the converse of a theorem?

(b) There are some geometric statements that are true, but have converses that are false. Give one such geometric statement, and state also the (false) converse.

This is very different from the past course.

2. In relation to the syllabus. I cannot emphasis enough how important it is that teachers are extremely familiar with everything on the syllabus, in particular the learning outcomes. The assessment will not be based on previous exam papers like the previous syllabus where some elements were rarely if ever tested. They are determined to make students learn everything on the syllabus and looking at the variety on the sample/exam papers released so far they will succeed. (Doc17 this is possibly why you weren't given a straight answer, they need teachers to read an analyse the syllabus themselves. Also the local facilitators are running courses in teaching and learning, not the syllabus however much that may be useful).

3. Please please do not leave the PM elements until the end of the course in 3rd year. In particular geometry, there is too much in it. The questions are based on an assumption that students have studied it over three years building on previous knowledge and developing analysis and problem solving techniques along the way. Students seem to find stats and probability interesting, particularly using the suggested methods of teaching (rolling the actual dice, collecting and analysing their own data) so it makes them great topics after heavier algebra sections.

I'm sure I could blab on for longer. But after my year and a half here's my brief opinion
1. It is a great course for students. If taught and implemeneted as they envisage then it will work well.
2. It is not easier. Problem solving and lack of scaffolding has a huge impact on this
3. It is more time consuming to prepare as a teacher. However it does have rewards in student recall.
4. It's rough as a teacher to start with but it gets easier (particularly now there are books though again I emphasise read the syllabus). It has fostered huge collaboration in our department and a renewed interest in the subject by the teachers.

doc_17

Musicmental85 wrote: »

They are determined to make students learn everything on the syllabus and looking at the variety on the sample/exam papers released so far they will succeed. (Doc17 this is possibly why you weren't given a straight answer, they need teachers to read an analyse the syllabus themselves. Also the local facilitators are running courses in teaching and learning, not the syllabus however much that may be useful).

.

I appreciate where you're coming from but I don't need someone to show me how to teach fractions (last inservice).

They want us to read the syllabus? I have. But they still aren't sure on it themselves ie things may still change - the course has started and we ask a simple question about a certain element of the course and they can't tell us if it will be included in the final syllabus.

You're probably in a more fortunate position than most as you're in a project school and probably have more interaction with them. One inservice a year ist gonna make much difference.

whiteandlight

I would doubt there will be any significant changes for you guys. We had several different revised syllabi so hopefully they have most of it finalised. Any questions you have sure throw them out here, I may be able to help

The fractions inservice was interesting, I remember that one. They told us to assume no knowledge of fractions as research had shown that 1st year students have a hugely varied knowledge of them depending on school/teacher etc in primary school. We spent a signifcant amount of time on them this year. It'll be interesting to see if they still remember it by the summer.

However if its an overall view of the strands you are looking for then the evening courses are your best bet. The individual inservices are very specific to individual areas of the course I found. The strand 1 one is just finishing in most education centres and the geometry one will be starting sometime march/april hopefully.

I've just had my training for it and some of it is very interesting. Used geostrips for example with my 3rd years for similar triangles since, it worked very well with the colour coding. Also tried out mini whiteboards with my 6th years (laminated a4 sheets works too) in a revision class and it was great. Got through a ton of definitions/rules in a class e.g. draw me a pair of corresponding anlges etc. I (and they) realised how much they'd remembered/forgotten. Some of the questions are excellent and some fanastic applications of geometry/trig e.g. blood spatter analysis using right angled triangles and trig.

In relation to the last, you should get three days inservice a year? The same as us, though we do have greater access to the Regional Development Officers. And the option of the evening courses. As I said though, ask away and I'll see if I can help

whiteandlight

Oh and since I know these questions come up on a daily basis in the classroom rather than a study of the syllabus at night, please feel free to PM me at anystage during the year everyone. I may not have the answer right away but I'll do my best to get back to you.

Collaboration is half the battle in this course. The rest of the staff think we're nuts, usually three or four teachers talking maths 3/4 times a day in our school on things that have arisen

doc_17

Musicmental85 wrote: »

In relation to the last, you should get three days inservice a year? The same as us, though we do have greater access to the Regional Development Officers. And the option of the evening courses. As I said though, ask away and I'll see if I can help

I've had an inservice in November and afaik I'm not down for any for the rest of the year!

whiteandlight

I'll confirm and get back to you

whiteandlight

Apologies for the delayed response, I've had some family issues over the Christmas period.

The first inservice for you looked at Problem solving, fractions, complex numbers and looked at some of the questions to date. There will be a second round of inservices running end of Jan to March. If your school received the first round you should be automatically contacted regarding the second.

majo

Does anyone know where I can find Leaving Cert 2011 Mocks Project Maths papers? Also looking online for solutions/marking schemes for the 2011 Sample Papers. Neither of these seems to be on the P.M. website nor on the NCCA site

whiteandlight

The Ncca mock papers were too difficult (acknowledged by themseves) so I doubt you will find anything except the paper 1 issued by the SEC. However I know one of the mock paper companies did up project maths mocks this year, you could ask them for copies?

With regard the marking scheme are you talking about the SEC sample papers or NCCA sample papers? I'm not sure if marking schemes were issued for the NCCA. There was a trailing report issued on the SEC sample which is on examinations.ie

majo

It was the SEC 2011 sample papers (phase2) that I was looking for solutions for. I thought that by this time last year the solutions to the 2010 samples were on the PM website, but perhaps I'm mistaken. Thanks for your advice!

whiteandlight

I don't think we got solutions to this years one. I'll check in school and see if it's in my pile of paper!

terenure

Hi there,

I have just inherited a third year HL Maths class in a new school and I am the only HL JC maths teacher. I am looking for the JC Higher Paper 2 Sample Paper Solutions (2011 & 2012) and some mock papers for further practice. Any advice out there would be greatly appreciated

Crazyteacher

I'm not a maths teacher but in case no one answers you on here , contact http://maths.slss.ie/contactus.html and they'll help you out

whiteandlight

There are no official sample paper solutions. However as the pilot schools have sat a paper already you can get their exam and solutions on examinations.ie
With regard mock papers you'd need to find someone teaching in a pilot school who has some. However there will be exam papers released by the companies, they will be later in the year though. Last year I think it was the last week of November when folens published.

majo

The sample paper will be our very soon. Going on last year's Leaving Cert sample, it will be almost identical to the Phase One sample on the Project Maths website. Shortly after that, the publishing companies will produce the books of exam papers to include SEC samples and their own papers. Last year, Educational Company were quite good and they had quite detailed solutions with the papers and also more detailed solutions on their website. I also think there may be solutions to the existing samples somewhere on the internet. Try googling it. Good Luck and forget about it all for the next week!!!

terenure

Hi there,

I am looking for solutions to the SEC 2011 (phase 1) sample paper and 2012 (phase2) sample paper. I see the 2013 is available but can't find the others. Any advice greatly appreciated

Thanks:)