The Status Of Irish.

Enkidu

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Ireland 1912-1985, J.J. Lee


(D. P. Moran)


http://anghaeltacht.net/ctg/altveritas.htm#_ftn46
Donncha Ó hÉallaithe

Thanks for that article Dannyboy83. It presents a very good historical overview.

DJP

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This thread, which you started, is not about why people choose not to speak Irish or if the teaching is any good. It's about justifying compulsory Irish lessons for Engliah speakers, so, let's look at the question more directly:

What are the benefits of compulsory teaching of Irish to millions of children?

Up until now there haven't been many benefits or results. That is why I believe making it optional for the Leaving Cert is the right thing to do. And another second level Irish subject is needed for the Leaving Cert like there are two Maths subjects and I believe two Home Economics subjects. "Irish Arts and Literature" is the proposed new subject but I am not sure if it would be good to name it that. Most Irish speakers are not interested in Irish language arts and literature. Maybe the new subject could be called "Advanced Irish" where the format of the syllabus would be the same as the general Irish syllabus but would be harder. Just so you know the new Irish oral for the Leaving Cert is supposed to be insultingly easy to people who already have good Irish like people from the Gaeltacht and people going to gaelscoileanna and the students who do well (academically) in Irish going to the coláistí samhraidh/summer colleges in the Gaeltacht every year.

Chuchoter

deise go deo wrote: »

What? Are there 55'000 Maths jobs? I don't think so. Dose that mean compulsory Maths is not justified?

Hmm, I don't know, only every science, engineering, business, architecture, computer, building, tax job ever? Maths is exponentially more useful than Irish (no pun intended :P) Maths encourages logical thinking and working out problems, it makes you think in a totally different way than other subjects.

I can justify compulsory English because it teaches basic skills (formal letter writing, writing clear concise instructions, understanding media) and also allows the student to form their own opinions and think critically. If you cannot express yourself you are in trouble.

However, I still want to know why I spent two hours last night learning vocabulary for An Coras Oideachais last night, when I would bet money I will never need to talk about that in real life in Irish for the rest of my life.

cyclopath2001

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Up until now there haven't been many benefits or results. That is why I believe making it optional for the Leaving Cert is the right thing to do.

That seems like a very small concession after subjecting children to years of compulsory Irish lessons.

Religiious instruction is not compulsory, so why should a langauge that the children and their parents don't speak be imposed on them? What about choice?

The flimsy excuse that a curriculum change will solve everything sounds to me like a bank looking for more bailout money.

DJP

What you are saying is an 'on the edge' argument and I am not going to waste any of my time with it. Irish will ALWAYS be required up until Junior Cert just like eight other subjects are (in secondary). And it will always be taught in primary. Our society broadly values the Irish language even if many do not greatly. Goodbye.

Dannyboy83

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

What you are saying is an 'on the edge' argument and I am not going to waste any of my time with it. Irish will ALWAYS be required up until Junior Cert just like eight other subjects are (in secondary). And it will always be taught in primary. Our society broadly values the Irish language even if many do not greatly. Goodbye.

Reminds me of that quote:
"Everything that can be invented has been invented"

Sponge Bob

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Reminds me of that quote:
"Everything that can be invented has been invented"

Like OECD Statistics where reading tests ( in English) are showing a serious ongoing decline in standards.

This data does back up my basic premise that the primary system is rapidly failing in every subject and that picking on Irish is dreadfully short sighted ...but easy to prove when you set about docking pay for non performance of contract.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/34/60/46619703.pdf

Ireland went from 5th in 2000 to 20th in 2009.

We are a netch above average in reading da Ingles type tasks, below average for maths and a netch above average for science. No tests were peformed in Irish, only in the sweet saxon tongue.

A radical toe up the hole of the primary sector is required as a matter of strategic urgency

cyclopath2001

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

What you are saying is an 'on the edge' argument and I am not going to waste any of my time with it. Irish will ALWAYS be required up until Junior Cert just like eight other subjects are (in secondary). And it will always be taught in primary. Our society broadly values the Irish language even if many do not greatly. Goodbye.

The arrogance of what you say could only come from fear of change. It's not 'edge', it is very much core.

It is wrong to think that 'valuing Irish' is accomplished by imposing the language on people who do not wish to speak it.

But there is a lot wrong in Irish society and many vested interests defend what they have and hold at the expense of vulnerable members of society.

Oasis_Dublin

Irish badly needs to be taught properly. Teaching poetry as Gaeilge is a waste of time. Teach people how to speak the language and do a longer oral test. I hated Irish at primary level because it was taught so poorly. By the time I had left secondary school I had become far more aware of the value of the language. I would love to be able to speak it.

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Irish badly needs to be taught properly. ... I would love to be able to speak it.

It is very nice that you are interested in Irish, I hope you enjoy learning it. But, do you think it should be imposed on children who do not wish to learn it?

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It is very nice that you are interested in Irish, I hope you enjoy learning it. But, do you think it should be imposed on children who do not wish to learn it?

I'd be surprised if a 14 year old would be able to make that decision; I didn't like Maths and English, it was still imposed upon me!

I was lucky to have an Irish teacher in secondary school who was passionate about the language and instilled a feeling of pride in me towards the language.

cyclopath2001

Knowledge of English and Maths are important to a pupil's education. They're basic literacy skills. Irish is not on the same level of necessity.

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I'd be surprised if a 14 year old would be able to make that decision; I didn't like Maths and English, it was still imposed upon me!

Let's assume that the child and his/her parents do not wish to receive Irish language lessons. Would you impose Irish in those circumstances?

Dannyboy83

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I'd be surprised if a 14 year old would be able to make that decision; I didn't like Maths and English, it was still imposed upon me!

What do you mean by this?

14 year olds are asked to make this decision with every other subject, with the exception of Maths and English for obvious reasons (i.e. you need them to survive).

I had to choose between languages and practical subjects.
Irish is no different.

Dannyboy83

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Irish badly needs to be taught properly. Teaching poetry as Gaeilge is a waste of time. Teach people how to speak the language and do a longer oral test. I hated Irish at primary level because it was taught so poorly. By the time I had left secondary school I had become far more aware of the value of the language. I would love to be able to speak it.

I never knew the value of Polish or Russian while in school.
Since leaving school, I know the value and have taught them to myself.
I still do not see the value in Irish.

If you really do wish to know Irish, go check out BYKI.
There is nothing to stop you acquiring this language if that is what you desire .

However, forcing your choice of language onto another individual would make as little sense as me forcing Russian onto you when you interest lies in Irish - would you not agree that this is a fair comment?

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The exception of Maths and English for obvious reasons (i.e. you need them to survive).

Dannyboy, What exactly is in the LC course for either Maths or English that the average person needs to 'survive'?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Dannyboy, What exactly is in the LC course for either Maths or English that the average person needs to 'survive'?

Why confine the discussion to compulsory LC Irish? Trying to draw attention away from the big picture?

The biggest waste & harm has been caused long before LC.

Why impose Irish on primary school children?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Why confine the discussion to compulsory LC Irish? Trying to draw attention away from the big picture?

The biggest waste & harm has been caused long before LC.

Why impose Irish on primary school children?

Why do you think Irish should be treated any differently to any other subject in primary school?

And Harm? What Harm?
If you think there is something harmful in teaching children a second Language in Primary schools then There is no point even continuing this debate because it is not being conducted within reality.

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

Dannyboy, What exactly is in the LC course for either Maths or English that the average person needs to 'survive'?

If you are prepared to argue that the two subjects of primary importance in Irish education (Maths&English) are unnecessary- then you cannot deny that Irish ( a lower status language to use your words) is unnecessary.
Therefore it is senseless for it be be compulsory.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Why do you think Irish should be treated any differently to any other subject in primary school?

Let's turn it around- why should it have the same standing as maths or English? Why not give it the same standing as French or Spanish? Either of these are just as relevant to the child and far more likely to be useful in the future. Irish, of course, should be available to those who wish to learn it.

deise go deo wrote: »

If you think there is something harmful in teaching children a second Language in Primary schools

It is harmful if it is against the will of the child and parents. Why not allow a choice of languages?

deise go deo wrote: »

There is no point even continuing this debate because it is not being conducted within reality.

Tossing the toys out of the pram is a recurring theme of any attempt at serious debate with Irish-language enthusiasts. Why is compulsion so important to you? Are you afraid that without it, people would be free to express their linguistic preferences? We don't make people learn Catholicism at school, so why force them to speak a langauge, not their own?

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If you are prepared to argue that the two subjects of primary importance in Irish education (Maths&English) are unnecessary- then you cannot deny that Irish ( a lower status language to use your words) is unnecessary.
Therefore it is senseless for it be be compulsory.

Im not, Im asking what is needed for survival in the LC course of either of those subjects, Cowering from the question are we? That looked like a side step to me:P

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Let's turn it around- why should it have the same standing as maths or English? Why not give it the same standing as French or Spanish? Either of these are just as relevant to the child and far more likely to be useful in the future. Irish, of course, should be available to those who wish to learn it.

All subjects tought in Primary school are manditory, If you are going to treat Irish diffirently then you should be able to give a reason why it should be treated differently.

It is harmful if it is against the will of the child and parents. Why not allow a choice of languages?

Dose that apply to all subjects or just Irish?

Tossing the toys out of the pram is a recurring theme of any attempt at serious debate with Irish-language enthusiasts. Why is compulsion so important to you? Are you afraid that without it, people would be free to express their linguistic preferences? We don't make people learn Catholicism at school, so why force them to speak a langauge, not their own?

Please Cyclopath, Serious debate? Some of the crap/insults you have trown around this thread dont even belong in a playground let alone serious debate.
We do however make students learn every subject on the Primary school Curriculum, No Choice there at all. Why should Irish be treated differently? Espically as there is no campaghain for such a change by parents, They dont seam to want change in this so why are you so insistent on changing the System?

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

Im not, Im asking what is needed for survival in the LC course of either of those subjects, Cowering from the question are we? That looked like a side step to me:P

I answered the question while staying on the topic which you started - something you are evidently incapable of doing - after all, it was you who started the topic to discuss compulsory Irish, yet here you are asking why English and Maths are necessary to survive.:rolleyes:

Why did you start a thread about compulsory Irish when you wish to discuss everything except it? Are you confused?:rolleyes:

If you've genuinely decided to stop cowering from questions; then answer mine:

why is it fair that my children have to learn Irish against their will and against mine, simply to satisfy yours?

Is it just to keep money in your pocket?
Or do you take some pleasure in forcing people to do things against their will?
Have you even the foggiest idea what happened to the Russian language in Eastern Europe when it was forced onto people and where it stands today as a result?
Do you think about the impact of forcing Irish on people who do not wish to learn it or do you just obsequiously submit to the demands of the Irish Language Lobby?

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I answered the question while staying on the topic which you started - something you are evidently incapable of doing - after all, it was you who started the topic to discuss compulsory Irish, yet here you are asking why English and Maths are necessary to survive.:rolleyes:

Why did you start a thread about compulsory Irish when you wish to discuss everything except it? Are you confused?:rolleyes:

No, Just responding to the notion that LC English and Maths being compulsoery is justified by the fact that they are 'needed for Survival'.
I ask what this need is for the average person as I dont think there is anything particularly useful in an everyday sence learned in either of those two courses for the LC, Nothing that would come close to being described as necessary for survival.
So if you believe that LC English and maths are Justified as compulsory subjects despite the fact that they are not necessary for survival then why isent Irish?

Why is it fair that my children have to learn Irish against their will and against mine, simply to satisfy yours?

Well, Personally I believe that the majority of Irish people want to see the Irish language revived. Now,the best way to achieve this is reform of the Curriculum while leaving it a compulsory subject, Now,while it is true that there may be those like your self who do not want their kids to learn Irish and see it as an unfair imposition, I dont believe that there are many like your self that would be against Compulsory Irish if it was reformed correctly and showed results.

Now, that dosent resolve the issue that there are still going to be some people who will see it as an Unfair imposition in any case but the same is true of any subject, and if it is acceptable to have some subjects like English and Maths Compulsory for the LC then the same principle applies to Irish in my opinion.

Is it just to keep money in your pocket?

I have never earned a cent due to my interest in Irish, But I have made some great friends and had some great experiences due to it.

Or do you take some pleasure in forcing people to do things against their will?

I think that is quite unfair, Both English and Maths are compulsory subjects with the same potential to be imposed against the parents and students will but yet you have no problem with that.

Have you even the foggiest idea what happened to the Russian language in Eastern Europe when it was forced onto people and where it stands today as a result?

I dont, but I assume it was forced by a forrighn people onto a people who dident have any traditional attachment to it and was openly opposed by the people it was forced on. Not exactly an equal comparrision

Do you think about the impact of forcing Irish on people who do not wish to learn it or do you just obsequiously submit to the demands of the Irish Language Lobby?

The impact of compulsory Irish is no greater than the impact of the other two compulsory subjects.

Take maths as an example, Many people dont like maths, And many of those have no interest in persuing a career involving maths. LC maths it isent needed for their every day lives and many people fail maths every year, Dose this not have an impact on their lives? Yet you would have it compulsory for the LC.

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Knowledge of English and Maths are important to a pupil's education. They're basic literacy skills. Irish is not on the same level of necessity.

Let's assume that the child and his/her parents do not wish to receive Irish language lessons. Would you impose Irish in those circumstances?

"not wish to receive"? We're not talking about Holy Communion here! I don't see why Irish should be removed from the compulsory LC curriculum. It's a distinctly Irish thing and without getting overly political about it, it's part of our history. It's also a nice language once people get over the fear of actually learning it. Hence, it needs to be taught properly.

Oasis_Dublin

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

What do you mean by this?

14 year olds are asked to make this decision with every other subject, with the exception of Maths and English for obvious reasons (i.e. you need them to survive).

I had to choose between languages and practical subjects.
Irish is no different.

I would put Irish on the same level as Maths and English. I have no need of Leaving Cert Honours English in my life at present, I've been able to speak the language since I was 10.

astrofool

They're right deise, if you want to argue why math or English is compulsory, you're only strengthening the case for Irish not to be compulsory. No matter how useless English and maths might be for leaving cert, you could never ever argue that Irish is more useful than them, and thus on a hiding to nothing with this line of argument.

Maybe you should have a separate thread for the English/maths question.

deise go deo

astrofool wrote: »

They're right deise, if you want to argue why math or English is compulsory, you're only strengthening the case for Irish not to be compulsory. No matter how useless English and maths might be for leaving cert, you could never ever argue that Irish is more useful than them, and thus on a hiding to nothing with this line of argument.

Maybe you should have a separate thread for the English/maths question.

I am not arguing that English and Maths should be optional. Nor am I arguing that Irish is more usefull than them, I am pointing out that the arguments made against Irish being compulsory can also be made against Maths and English being compulsory.

If English and Maths can be compulsory, Even if they are not 'Necessary for Survival' then so can Irish.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

If English, Irish and Maths can be compulsory, Even if they are not 'Necessary for Survival' then so can Irish.

After 80 years of cimpulsory English and Maths education, a huge majority of the population can speal English fluently and can balance their household budgets. Very few can speak Irish.

No doubt, you will claim that this is because it is being taught poorly, but this is just blind idealism.

Nothing in what you have posted demonstrates any positive advantages of compulsory Irish teaching for English-speaking children.

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

No doubt, you will claim that this is because it is being taught poorly, but this is just blind idealism.
.

It is taught poorly. I would wager that most people want to be able to speak the language. I would simultaneously wager that no wants to do "An Triail"

Bottle_of_Smoke

See even if Irish was taught well it wouldn't lead to people speaking it day to day.

Take other languages - they're taught well but at the end of the day it is only the talented or very interested students who are fluent in German/French/Spanish by the time they finish their leaving cert.

So gaelscoil is the only way to go if you actually want to make people fluent. Virtually everyone who goes to a gaelscoil primary can still speak the language in their 20s.

I think a reasonable compromise might be to have a compulsory but non-exam subject in secondary school where you only learn conversational Irish. Would be relaxed, have things like discussions, table quizzes, games etc.. but conducted in Irish. You could still study an exam based Irish class if you wished of course.

That kind of class would get people confident enough to speak Irish in day to day life. MOst people who grew up in Ireland have plenty of Irish but just don't realise it.