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The Status Of Irish.
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I only just saw this thread and havent gone back to read all the posts. But I just have one question:
Which is more useful? Irish or Chinese / another european language.
The ability of Irish people to interact on a European stage is embarassing. A foreign langauge should surely be taught from primary school. I would rather my future kids learn something useful, rather than Irish.0 -
Making Irish 'non exam' would be a step in the direction of removing the compulsory status. I suppose when dealing with the highly conservative, entrenched Irish Language lobby, one has to take gentle steps to release their vice-like grip on the education of children.Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »I think a reasonable compromise might be to have a compulsory but non-exam subject in secondary school
The fact that they have to make it compulsory is an admission that they know that the majority would not choose to learn the language voluntarily.0 -
I only just saw this thread and havent gone back to read all the posts. But I just have one question:
Which is more useful? Irish or Chinese / another european language.
The ability of Irish people to interact on a European stage is embarassing. A foreign langauge should surely be taught from primary school. I would rather my future kids learn something useful, rather than Irish.
Depends on where you are really, If your in china then Chinese is much more useful, If your in Ireland then Irish is much more useful.
Irish is useful.;)0 -
Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »See even if Irish was taught well it wouldn't lead to people speaking it day to day.
I disagree, while its true that English would remain the primary language of the state, The use or Irish would increase in proportion with the increase in the number of people able to use it.Take other languages - they're taught well but at the end of the day it is only the talented or very interested students who are fluent in German/French/Spanish by the time they finish their leaving cert.
Not necessarily, while I agree that only the very interested/talented students would be fluent be the LC the rest, if tought properly would still have a solid grasp of the language and would be able to use it in social situations.So gaelscoil is the only way to go if you actually want to make people fluent. Virtually everyone who goes to a gaelscoil primary can still speak the language in their 20s.
I dont think its necessary to make people fluent, I am no where near fluent but I can still hold a conversation as Gaeilge. I think giving people a solid grasp of the language is a more realistic aim, that would be enough to allow people to use Irish when they wanted to.I think a reasonable compromise might be to have a compulsory but non-exam subject in secondary school where you only learn conversational Irish. Would be relaxed, have things like discussions, table quizzes, games etc.. but conducted in Irish. You could still study an exam based Irish class if you wished of course.
That kind of class would get people confident enough to speak Irish in day to day life. MOst people who grew up in Ireland have plenty of Irish but just don't realise it.
That is quite close to CnaG's suggestion, Two classes, one conversational one advanced.
I dont think there is much point learning a subject through Secondary school and not being examined at the end of it, Even if it is just to see if the course is doing what it is supposed to do.
Though the Curriculum and Exams need to be reformed.0 -
There's nothing that could be done in Irish that cannot be done in English.deise go deo wrote: »Depends on where you are really, If your in china then Chinese is much more useful, If your in Ireland then Irish is much more useful.
Irish is useful.;)
With Irish, you could qualify for a dwindling number of state-subsidised jobs. Whereas, with Mandarin, one would be poised to engage with the next great economic super-power.
I'm still waiting for evidence of the advantages of compulsory Irish.0 -
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Not if there's more Chinese speakers in Ireland then Irish. Which is very likely.deise go deo wrote: »Depends on where you are really, If your in china then Chinese is much more useful, If your in Ireland then Irish is much more useful.
Irish is useful.;)0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »Not if there's more Chinese speakers in Ireland then Irish. Which is very likely.
Depends what you mean by useful, There are more jobs available in Irish.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »I disagree, while its true that English would remain the primary language of the state, The use or Irish would increase in proportion with the increase in the number of people able to use it.
Think about it realistically. 2 years after someone finishes LC German(which is taught quite well) - unless they actively continue learning it they are unlikely to still be able to hold a real conversation.
This is what would happen with Irish - so people wouldn't bother continuing it.Not necessarily, while I agree that only the very interested/talented students would be fluent be the LC the rest, if tought properly would still have a solid grasp of the language and would be able to use it in social situations.
Only in social situations where everyone can speak Irish, they are few and far between. Speaking Irish in social situations where other people don't speak it is incredibily rude imo, akin to whispering.I dont think its necessary to make people fluent, I am no where near fluent but I can still hold a conversation as Gaeilge. I think giving people a solid grasp of the language is a more realistic aim, that would be enough to allow people to use Irish when they wanted to.
See they'd never bother. Whilst Irish teaching is pretty bad here, it is still taught to some standard, and you rarely(never myself) hear people from non-gaelscoileanna using it in day to day life.[/quote]That is quite close to CnaG's suggestion, Two classes, one conversational one advanced.
Does he only think the conversational one should be compulsory.I dont think there is much point learning a subject through Secondary school and not being examined at the end of it, Even if it is just to see if the course is doing what it is supposed to do.
Though the Curriculum and Exams need to be reformed.
I'm very surprised at you saying that. The point would be to help people actually speak the language. It would be something you wouldn't have to study for, or worry about for exams, just show up and bi ag caint. There are other ways of seeing if its doing what its supposed to do - all you'd need is random inspections.
I can't help but suspect from that comment you are actually more concerned about the status Irish has rather than people actualyl speaking it.0 -
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Only because of the irish's favoured status as the first national language. Where Irish left to it's own devices it would be dead in a couple of decades.deise go deo wrote: »Depends what you mean by useful, There are more jobs available in Irish.0 -
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You've repeated this statement many times, but all you can point to are jobs that exist to service the compulsory Irish regime, which are not economically viable and depend either directly or indirectly on state support.deise go deo wrote: »Depends what you mean by useful, There are more jobs available in Irish.
Effectively, people are being paid to speak Irish.
Is this the only justification you can come up with for 80 years of forcing all children in the country to learn a langauge which very few want to speak?0 -
deise go deo wrote: »I am not arguing that English and Maths should be optional. Nor am I arguing that Irish is more usefull than them, I am pointing out that the arguments made against Irish being compulsory can also be made against Maths and English being compulsory.
If English and Maths can be compulsory, Even if they are not 'Necessary for Survival' then so can Irish.
English and Maths are required subjects for just about any type of third level course, and a lot of trades.
Irish is useful for a small amount of government jobs (that only exist by compulsion), and a single television company.
Irish being a compulsion is an absolute sham, part of a broken education system of a language that nobody needs to use.
10 years after leaving cert, I use maths daily, I speak English daily, never ever have I needed to use Irish, absolutely anywhere. This is the same experience that 95%+ of the population has, the jobs in Irish are an absolute farce, they are not real jobs, just sucking at the teat of a country that doesn't have the money to spend on them anyway.
The few private sector jobs that are in Irish do not make it in any way worth to teach Irish past the junior cert.
The hardline gaeilgeoir's may disagree, and certainly the fanatics in CnaG will, but Irish will be dead as a useful language within the next couple of decades. It's only hope for a revival is through people wanting to learn it, and for the last time not via compulsion. People hate compulsion, and it will see Irish dead and buried sooner than it should be. How can you not get that when making your arguments about bi-lingualism and trying to paint Irish as more useful than any subject other than English and Maths. Why the need to push Irish onto the masses who have singularly rejected it for 80 years, to what end, for what purpose? Why aren't you fluent in it? You're one of the biggest proponents of Irish, yet you're not fluent, why? Did you not optionally join classes? Did you not find it useful day to day? If you can't get it to the fluency level, what of everyone else, again, why push it onto them, if they don't want it?
Why can a young adult choose not to study Irish, a language with low usability, low usage, but they can choose not to study economics, french, business, physics, chemisty, all of which have literally millions of jobs worldwide, and thousands of jobs in Ireland (in the private sector, so not state mandated).
The gaeilgeoir's are frightened to death that no one else loves their quaint little language, and hanging onto this compulsion is seen as their last little grasp. People will still reject Irish, regardless of the curriculum, they will always reject compulsion.
The Irish fanatics need to have another plan other than trying to force their will onto other people.0 -
Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »Think about it realistically. 2 years after someone finishes LC German(which is taught quite well) - unless they actively continue learning it they are unlikely to still be able to hold a real conversation.
This is what would happen with Irish - so people wouldn't bother continuing it.
There is a difference between German and Irish, Irish is tought from Primary school, If it was reformed across the education system then by the end of secondary school students would have a solid grasp of the Language and would then be able to use it. Of course the issue of it being lost true lack of use is a real one but the best way to increase the amount of opportunities to use it is to increase demand for such opportunities. Even now with the limited pool of Irish speakers there are quite a few opportunities to use Irish.
Irish language media is growing and services provided both by the state and private businesses are all the time becoming more comprehensive.Only in social situations where everyone can speak Irish, they are few and far between. Speaking Irish in social situations where other people don't speak it is incredibily rude imo, akin to whispering.
To an extent, but then it depends on the situation, if it is an Irish event such as this then I would consider it rude for someone to object to Irish being spoken.See they'd never bother. Whilst Irish teaching is pretty bad here, it is still taught to some standard, and you rarely(never myself) hear people from non-gaelscoileanna using it in day to day life.
Oh I don't think so, its clear that people that can use Irish do. The education fails to teach anything but the few how to hold a normal conversation as gaeilge, most of my spoken Irish was learned on a summer course or in a conversation circle after i finished school.Does he only think the conversational one should be compulsory.
He? CnaG - Conradh na Gaeilge.
I believe that they propose that the conversational one should be compulsory and the advanced one for Higher level students.
Personally I would have the advanced class as an optional subject.I'm very surprised at you saying that. The point would be to help people actually speak the language. It would be something you wouldn't have to study for, or worry about for exams, just show up and bi ag caint. There are other ways of seeing if its doing what its supposed to do - all you'd need is random inspections.
I think in education it helps to have a goal like an exam, If the curriculum was reformed properly. Remember I dont want an exam like the one that is there currently but rather an expanded Oral exam where the students oral ability is examined, though I think a continual assessment model could work well here aswell, allowing the student to see their progress.I can't help but suspect from that comment you are actually more concerned about the status Irish has rather than people actualyl speaking it.
People speaking the language is the main concern, The status of the language is only important in its relation to people choosing to speak it.0 -
How do we know this will be the case?deise go deo wrote: »If it was reformed across the education system then by the end of secondary school students would have a solid grasp of the Language
What are the net economic benefits of expenditure on Irish? Will it help us find the money we need to pay for running hospitals?deise go deo wrote: »but the best way to increase the amount of opportunities to use it is to increase demand for such opportunities. Even now with the limited pool of Irish speakers there are quite a few opportunities to use Irish.
How so? Didn't a (state-subsidised) newspaper fail last year becuase not enough Irish-speakers would pay for it, even at the subsidised price?deise go deo wrote: »Irish language media is growing and services provided both by the state and private businesses are all the time becoming more comprehensive.
You may believe this, but you have not produced any evidence of there being any advantages to making Irish compulsory.deise go deo wrote: »I believe that they propose that the conversational one should be compulsory and the advanced one for Higher level students.
Shouldn't Irish derive its status from the number of people actually speaking it as an integral part of their daily lives rather than from laws being passed forcing English-speakers to learn it?deise go deo wrote: »People speaking the language is the main concern, The status of the language is only important in its relation to people choosing to speak it.
By all means acknowledge the legacy of Irish, but let's not inflate its status artificially.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »How do we know this will be the case?
If it can be done with other languages, And can be done in other countries then there is no reason I cannot be done with Irish.What are the net economic benefits of expenditure on Irish? Will it help us find the money we need to pay for running hospitals?
I would say that Irish and Hospitals have little to do with each other, Much like History of LC English there is little direct Economic Benifit to them. I dont judge Education to have a solely Economic role.How so? Didn't a (state-subsidised) newspaper fail last year becuase not enough Irish-speakers would pay for it, even at the subsidised price?
What paper would that be?
I know that there are several Papers available through Irish, Several Radiostations That operate Through Irish, More that have Irish on their stations, and Two TV stations that have Irish language programing.Shouldn't Irish derive its status from the number of people actually speaking it as an integral part of their daily lives rather than from laws being passed forcing English-speakers to learn it?
Numbers speaking it is certainly a factor, But not the only factor. Languages derive their status from all factors affecting them not just the ones that suit you.By all means acknowledge the legacy of Irish, but let's not inflate its status artificially.
Lets promote its use and stop it being Artifical.0 -
This assumes that people wish to learn Irish. Certainly, a change of language is possible. The most relevant experience would be in Ireland when, for economic and cultural reasons, the population decided to adopt English as their common langauge. This made sense as Britain is our largest trading partner.deise go deo wrote: »If it can be done with other languages, And can be done in other countries then there is no reason I cannot be done with Irish.
Indeed. Irish langauge promotion survives in a little world of its own, divorced from the reality of Irish society.deise go deo wrote: »I would say that Irish and Hospitals have little to do with each other,
Still not getting to any information about the benefits of making Irish lessons compulsory.deise go deo wrote: »I dont judge Education to have a solely Economic role.
The one you didn't buy. The closure was in the news last year.deise go deo wrote: »What paper would that be?
Name the ones that operate without any state subsidy?deise go deo wrote: »I know that there are several Papers available through Irish, Radiostations That operate Through Irish, More that have Irish on their stations, and Two TV stations that have Irish language programing.
Including the number of non-native speakers compelled to learn it? That's a display of power, not status.deise go deo wrote: »Numbers speaking it is certainly a factor, But not the only factor. Languages derive their status from all factors affecting them not just the ones that suit you.
Compulsion is artificial.deise go deo wrote: »Lets promote its use and stop it being Artifical.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »This assumes that people wish to learn Irish. Certainly, a change of language is possible. The most relevant experience would be in Ireland when, for economic and cultural reasons, the population decided to adopt English as their common langauge. This made sense as Britain is our largest trading partner.
I have yet to see any figures that say people do not want to learn Irish, And people not learning Irish in school is not evidience of this, I and many others wanted to learn Irish in school but were unable to due to a poor curriculum.
As for the 'choice' to adopt English. Not much of a 'choice' now was it? There were a few other factors at play other than England Being our trading partner werent there?Indeed. Irish langauge promotion survives in a little world of its own, divorced from the reality of Irish society.
Haha, Sticks and stones Cyclopath. How about some reasonable debate? Or is that just too hard for you?Still not getting to any information about the benefits of making Irish lessons compulsory.
If done correctly then Bi-Lingualism is the Benifit.The one you didn't buy. The closure was in the news last year.
You seam to know alot about it. Why cant you remember the Name of the Paper?Name the ones that operate without any state subsidy?
Moving the goal posts are we? The original point was that they exist, Now you are moving onto how they exist. Try to be fair on this Cyclopath, Do you admit that the provision of services available to the public through Irish has grown over the past noumber of years?Including the number of non-native speakers compelled to learn it? That's a display of power, not status.
Please Cyclopath, why the dramatics?Compulsion is artificial.
If compulsion is artifical for Irish then surely it is for other subjects? So why use that point against Irish Only?0 -
Where is the evidence that everyone wants to learn Irish and are prepared to work at it?deise go deo wrote: »I have yet to see any figures that say people do not want to learn Irish, And people not learning Irish in school is not evidience of this,
OK, you and your mates like Irish, how does this justify imposing Irish on everyone?deise go deo wrote: »I and many others wanted to learn Irish in school but were unable to due to a poor curriculum.
Indeed, a substantial part of the most productive Irish population were English speakers.deise go deo wrote: »As for the 'choice' to adopt English. Not much of a 'choice' now was it? There were a few other factors at play other than England Being our trading partner werent there?
Language is part of society, not an end in itself.deise go deo wrote: »aha, Sticks and stones Cyclopath. How about some reasonable debate? Or is that just too hard for you?
In a langauge not spoken anywhere else in the world.deise go deo wrote: »If done correctly then Bi-Lingualism is the Benifit.
'Foinse'. Falling readership, despite large amounts of public money poured into it. Then they tried giving it away free.. Not sure where it's at now.deise go deo wrote: »You seam to know alot about it. Why cant you remember the Name of the Paper?
As a result of compulsion, not a revival of the language.deise go deo wrote: »Do you admit that the provision of services available to the public through Irish has grown over the past noumber of years?
Don't you care about the people targetted by your policies?deise go deo wrote: »Please Cyclopath, why the dramatics?
This is a very weak argument in a thread which you started, attempting to justify compulsory Irish - What are the advantages of compulsory Irish?deise go deo wrote: »If compulsion is artifical for Irish then surely it is for other subjects? So why use that point against Irish Only?0 -
I've a feeling Foinse is now a few pages on a Wednesday in one of the big papers, but that could be gone by now.
Deise go deo, obviously as you have failed to reply to any of my arguments, me being one of the people you are currently forcing to do Irish, you must know there is no benefit to learning Irish for most of the student population. Irish costs a fortune to run as a compulsory subject, and we are not sure why we are paying for it.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »Where is the evidence that everyone wants to learn Irish and are prepared to work at it?
Strawman argument, I dident claim that everyone wants to learn Irish, I said that I have seen nothing nor have you produced anything to show that most Irish people are not open to learning Irish.OK, you and your mates like Irish, how does this justify imposing Irish on everyone?
Go ahead and Avoid the point I was making:rolleyes:Indeed, a substantial part of the most productive Irish population were English speakers.
That dose kind of avoid the whole forcing of English on the population of Ireland by a forrighn nation though dosent it? Its hard to be productive when your land is confiscated and given to settlers from another country;)In a langauge not spoken anywhere else in the world.
Bi-Lingualism is benifical in its self;)'Foinse'. Falling readership, despite large amounts of public money poured into it. Then they tried giving it away free.. Not sure where it's at now.
Well it was in every newsagent in the country yesterday.As a result of compulsion, not a revival of the language.
Are you admiting that the Availability of Irish has increased? Its not all state supported, some of it is from private companies. You seam to have a very hard time being unbiased on this topic.Don't you care about the people targetted by your policies?
My policies? I am a student in university, not the minister for Education, And you do need to show that there is some problem before you can pull out that line.This is a very weak argument in a thread which you started, attempting to justify compulsory Irish - What are the advantages of compulsory Irish?
You have claimed that compulsory Irish is not justified but that Compulsory English and Maths are, I think it is reasonable enough to question why some are justified and others are not.
So far the reasons given for English and maths being justified as Compulsory subjects for the LC either are false or apply to Irish also.
The advantage of Compulsory Irish is Bi-Lingualism both for the Individual and the state,
Noe what are the advantages of Compulsory Maths and English for the LC as opposed to Optional maths and English for the LC?0 -
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I find it sad that you're jumping on bi-lingualism as the reason to teach people a pretty useless language.
Has there been a study showing bi-lingualism is a benefit when one of the languages is barely ever used, or is practical in any meaningful way?0 -
There is no clear logic in what you say. The fact that a massive proportion of the population don't speak Irish, even after 80 years of compulsory education in the language and widespread availiability of extra-curricular courses and subsidised TV programs is ample evidence that they don't want to learn Irish and are not 'open' to it.deise go deo wrote: »Strawman argument, I dident claim that everyone wants to learn Irish, I said that I have seen nothing nor have you produced anything to show that most Irish people are not open to learning Irish.
Interesting, is it not, that the British were, as you put it, able to 'force' us to speak English, and yet you and your mates in CnaG cannot force us to speak Irish? Perhaps, we wanted to speak English? That's might explain things.deise go deo wrote: »That dose kind of avoid the whole forcing of English on the population of Ireland by a forrighn nation though dosent it? Its hard to be productive when your land is confiscated and given to settlers from another country;)
Bi-lingualism in another major langauge would be better.deise go deo wrote: »Bi-Lingualism is benifical in its self;)
And nobody paid to read it.deise go deo wrote: »Well it was in every newsagent in the country yesterday.
Mere availability is not important, utilisation is.deise go deo wrote: »Are you admiting that the Availability of Irish has increased?
Give examples.deise go deo wrote: »Its not all state supported, some of it is from private companies.
Billions spent and nothing to show for it? People subjected, against their will to lessons in a language they never speak? These are problems.deise go deo wrote: »My policies? I am a student in university, not the minister for Education, And you do need to show that there is some problem before you can pull out that line.
This would be true if we were now bi-lingual in Irish and English, but we are not. So, it's not an advantage as it never happened.deise go deo wrote: »The advantage of Compulsory Irish is Bi-Lingualism both for the Individual and the state,
Compulsory Irish has failed and is a waste of time and money. There is no reason to continue with it.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »There is no clear logic in what you say. The fact that a massive proportion of the population don't speak Irish, even after 80 years of compulsory education in the language and widespread availiability of extra-curricular courses and subsidised TV programs is ample evidence that they don't want to learn Irish and are not 'open' to it.
You claim that people not learning Irish in school proves they are not open to it.
In reality people who are definitely open to it also do not learn it, so how do you know who is and isent open to it?
People who are open to learning Irish in school dont so how can people not learning Irish in school prove that people are not open to it?Interesting, is it not, that the British were, as you put it, able to 'force' us to speak English, and yet you and your mates in CnaG cannot force us to speak Irish? Perhaps, we wanted to speak English? That's might explain things.
Difference being that the when the British were forcing the language on people you could not get any state job unless you had English, Not to mention the famin which destroyed Irish speaking communities wholesale. they went much further in their 'forcing' than anyone ever would now, that is because despite what you might like to think Irish speakers want to promote the use of Irish, not force people to use it.Bi-lingualism in another major langauge would be better.
You asked what the benifit would be, If you dont like it get onto your TD and let him know how much you disapprove of Irish.And nobody paid to read it.
Your point? Its there isent it, I think you might remember If you tried, that I dident claim that people paid for Foince, I said that the availability of Irish has increased.Mere availability is not important, utilisation is.
So lets reform the curriculum and let people utilisatise it then.Give examples.
Facebook, Google, Firefox, Gaelchárta.Billions spent and nothing to show for it? People subjected, against their will to lessons in a language they never speak? These are problems.
You keep claiming this subjected against their will bit, you have yet to show that a significant segment of the population feel that way about it,
Its all well and good to say it but it dose have to be true at the end of the day before I will take it seriously.This would be true if we were now bi-lingual in Irish and English, but we are not. So, it's not an advantage as it never happened.
Not an advantage now, but it is an advantage of keeping Irish compulsory and reforming the curriculum.Compulsory Irish has failed and is a waste of time and money. There is no reason to continue with it.
Are you ever going to back that up with evidence? Or are you going to continue to just restate your opinion over and over without supporting it?
The poor curriculum has failed, Compulsion has little to do with it. Show me why it is Compulsion that is the problem and not the poor curriculum.0 -
So, you don't want to force people to learn Irish, you just want to make it compulsory for them to do so?deise go deo wrote: »Irish speakers want to promote the use of Irish, not force people to use it.
You must show why compulsion is necessary, if, as you say, people are 'open to Irish'.deise go deo wrote: »Compulsion has little to do with it. Show me why it is Compulsion that is the problem and not the poor curriculum.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »So, you don't want to force people to learn Irish, you just want to make it compulsory for them to do so?
They don't actually force them to learn it per se. More force them to put up with it for 14 years!0 -
Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »They don't actually force them to learn it per se. More force them to put up with it for 14 years!
Which explains why we don't have a generation of Irish people speaking Latin and Ancient Greek.
Which explains why you may be spat on for speaking Russian in Riga, or can get stabbed for speaking Russian in Kaunas or parts of Estonia & NW Ukraine.
You simply cannot force a language on people.
Lithuanian is still alive and well, as is Latvian, Estonian etc. etc.
The methods of coercion were far more competent in these countries and it didn't work.
Now the young people there speak not German, not Russian, but English, because they choose to.0 -
It needs to be taught properly. That's it.0
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »So, you don't want to force people to learn Irish, you just want to make it compulsory for them to do so?
You must show why compulsion is necessary, if, as you say, people are 'open to Irish'.
I wouldent use the word 'Force' if people are open to learning it.;)
If you accept that people are open to Irish then Compulsion is necessary as it is the best way to promote the language, Something that I believe the majority want to happen.
Compulsion is useless, and is in practice counter productive if the Curriculum is poor, as it is now, but if it was reformed, then I believe that the use of Irish would grow in Ireland, both making the the provision of services by the state more justified and increasing the provision of services from the private sector due to demand.0 -
Why is it necessary to compel people to learn Irish if they are already 'open to Irish'?deise go deo wrote: »If you accept that people are open to Irish then Compulsion is necessary0 -
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deise go deo wrote: »I wouldent use the word 'Force' if people are open to learning it.;)
If you accept that people are open to Irish then Compulsion is necessary as it is the best way to promote the language, Something that I believe the majority want to happen.
Compulsion is useless, and is in practice counter productive if the Curriculum is poor, as it is now, but if it was reformed, then I believe that the use of Irish would grow in Ireland, both making the the provision of services by the state more justified and increasing the provision of services from the private sector due to demand.
See this is the crux of the issue. You cannot claim people are open to learning it and then at the same time insist it must be compulsory. That's a complete logical fallacy.
You can argue it will die out without compulsion but that means people are not open to learning it.
If it was taught better I genuinely don't think we'd see a large difference in its general use.
There are only two ways I can see that happening -
1. Make every primary school a Gaelscoil. All subjects to be taught in the medium of Irish. No exceptions. Within a generation or two everyone would be fluent. Even if they stopped studying Irish at second level you basically can't forget a language.
I still think English would be the main medium used for official business but peopel would speak Irish day to day and that's all that really matters.
2. Go with my idea of a non-exam conversation class. Wouldn't get the same results as point one but woulkd give people more confidence and encourage a positive image of the language.
The obvious problem with point 1 is people objecting, our immigrant population who are already slowing down classes by not being able to speak English, the amount of fully fluent Irish teachers and the whole incompatibility of the concept with a united Ireland, which will be a talking point over the next few decades.
So really your only option is point 2. Every other method is doomed to failure.0
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