The Status Of Irish.

deise go deo

We will all measure what the "best" system would entail differently. To me, the best education system possible is one which will help my kid grow as a person but also place them in the best possible position following the completion of said system. To me, the best position is one where they will be able to communicate with the largest number of people possible and allow them to operate on a global scale. One which is aware of the past but focuses on the future and realises their potential on a scale which will allow them to compete globally for success.

Going by what you want the Education system to be Languages are important. Language Learning is Important to the education system for several reasons.

You want the education system to 'Help your child grow as a person' and 'Place them in the best possible position following the Compleation of said System'

I contend that the Mother tounge plus two system of Language learning is important to achieving those aims, And I believe that Irish Should be one of the Plus two.

1) Why is language leaning important,

Language learning is more than just allowing a child communicate with a set group of people, It has implications for the childs development, Broader exposure to and appreciation of the value of various cultures as a result of language learning can lead to deeper multi-culturalism and It positivly affects the childs mental development.

ACTFL

2) Why should Irish be one of the 'plus 2'.

The system for teaching Irish to the Entire School population is already in place, Its curriculum in great need of reform, but the physical system is there.

People are open to learning Irish.
It has been suggested that people are not open to Learning Irish, That it is forced upon them, This has been shown to be untrue, The vast majority of people want Irish to be tought in the Education system with the same emphsis or greater emphsis than is currently on it.

There are more Jobs and oppertunities to use Irish than any other Second language in Ireland. Allowing those who learn Irish to keep it and use it After School.

Irish is the only language that can be promoted across Ireland to make Ireland its self a bi-lingual nation, The Structures to support this are already in place, with offical government Services already provided in Irish, and many organisations existing to promote the Irish language and endevouring to expand on the services provided(Public and Private) and oppertunities to use Irish.

One small example of this.


Developed and launched by Glor na nGael a few months ago.



An important part of the mother tounge plus two proposal put forward Here
Is teaching children how to learn languages.
It is impossible to predict what language the child will want/need in their adult lives. It may well be a case that they choose French in School but need Chinease. That is why children should be tought how to learn languages.

Irish Can be benifical here.
Irish is not a latin-derived language, as are most of our Western European counterparts. This means that the grammar, syntax, oral and written use, are utterly utterly different. In educational terms, this provides the Irish speaker, be it as a first or second language, with a distinct advantage in later life. Because Irish is so different to any other European language, once a learner has wrapped their heads around it, any and all of the other latin-derivatives pose far less of a challenge to the learner.

Also in terms of speaking a new language Irish is useful, There are 88(I think, I was a while ago when I saw this) sounds that the human can verbalise.
English only uses 44 of these sounds, Irish uses 63, So when learning how to speak a forighn language, the person who knows how to speak Irish is more likely to already know how to verbalise sounds in that language than an English(Monoglot) speaker.



So to conclude. I believe that the best possible education system achievable is on that has Compulsory language learning based on a mother tounge plus two model, And I believe that Irish should be one of the Plus two for the reasons above.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

So to conclude. I believe that the best possible education system achievable is on that has Compulsory language learning based on a mother tounge plus two model, And I believe that Irish should be one of the Plus two for the reasons above.

Would you concede that to make up the '2' the people would be allowed make a choice of 2 'foreign' languages from a number of options, Irish being one of them?

And, given, the recessionary times, maybe we should start with 'mother tongue' plus 1?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Would you concede that to make up the '2' the people would be allowed make a choice of 2 'foreign' languages from a number of options, Irish being one of them?

And, given, the recessionary times, maybe we should start with 'mother tongue' plus 1?

No, I have writen a long post outlining why I believe Irish should be one of the Two, Feel free to counter the points I have made.

As for recessionary times, I think Education is a vital componant of rebuilding our Economy, That is why I feel we Should aim for Best practice, I believe that in the area of language learning Mother Tounge plus two is best practice and as shuch should be implemented here.

Lord TSC

I contend that the Mother tounge plus two system of Language learning is important to achieving those aims, And I believe that Irish Should be one of the Plus two.

You can believe that all you want, but the truth is that having English & French/Spanish would be of far more benifit on a far larger scale. Regardless, people should be given a choice on those two. This still is not a good arguement for Irish to be compulsory, but rather it is for two other languages to be learned. There's no logical step here to suggest Irish offers any more benifit than any other language there...

Language learning is more than just allowing a child communicate with a set group of people, It has implications for the childs development, Broader exposure to and appreciation of the value of various cultures as a result of language learning can lead to deeper multi-culturalism and It positivly affects the childs mental development.

Never contested this fact. Just that this still does nothing for the Irish nor complusory Irish arguements.

The system for teaching Irish to the Entire School population is already in place, Its curriculum in great need of reform, but the physical system is there.

The system is already in most secondary schools to teach other languages as well, and the curiculum already exists at a Leaving Cert level. Regardless of a debate on what needs to change within the subject of Irish, that does not hide the fact that there is already schools which teach French, Spanish and German. To claim that the system is not there for these subjects is thus absurd.

People are open to learning Irish.

You keep saying this for some reason. Take into account I'd agree to an extent, though I would say "people are open to learning a second language". Most of society see being bilingual as a badge of intelligence and few would ever say they do not think that someone should not try and learn another language. My problem with this statement is thus two fold...

1. The same can be said for just about any arguement in numerous ways (eg; "People are open to learning Spanish", "People are open to learning French", "People are open to learning Klingon") and thus once more leads me to the belief it weakens any arguement, regardless of which side uses it.
2. This still does not prove why COMPULSION is nessecary; if anything, if people are open to Irish as you say, they would still continue to learn it if they were given the option. If you are so afraid that optinality would lead to a decrease in the learning of a language, it means you know deep in your heart that people are not actually open to learning it.

It has been suggested that people are not open to Learning Irish, That it is forced upon them, This has been shown to be untrue, The vast majority of people want Irish to be tought in the Education system with the same emphsis or greater emphsis than is currently on it.

It's obvious there are people not open to learning Irish and who belief it is being forced upon them. They seem to be making up the majority of people posting in this topic. Regardless, I will not speak for them and only for myself; I DO NOT WANT MY KIDS LEARNING IRISH AND WOULD RATHER THEM LEARNING ANOTHER EUROPEAN LANGUAGE. I am living proof that there are people out there who are not open. You can claim to represent the majority, but so can I. Regardless, THIS STILL DOES NOT ADDRESS WHY IT SHOULD BE MADE COMPLUSORY!!! If they want to learn it, they can still do so with it as an optional subject. They can still send their kids to GS schools. No one is saying it should be abolished from the education system. Just that, at a certain point, people are given the option and allowed to prioritise for themselves. If, as you claim, the majority will still choose Irish, why not let those who do not want to opt out?

There are more Jobs and oppertunities to use Irish than any other Second language in Ireland. Allowing those who learn Irish to keep it and use it After School.

Two points here;
1. "In Ireland" are the key words. If we accept there are more Irish jobs in Ireland, can you accept there are more French jobs in the world? By forcing the prioritization of Irish over other languages, so too do you force the youth to commit themselves to Ireland and doom them to a lack of choice in later life.
2. On top of this, I actually don't accept there are more Irish jobs than French, etc. I touched on this in the post you ignored. I am unemployed and am constantly scouring the jobs sections online and in papers. What jobs I see that are not in English are always in French, German, Russian or Chineese. I have not seen a single vacant Irish-speaking job advertised for weeks now, but many in languages that I cannot speak because I was forced to learn Irish instead.

Irish is the only language that can be promoted across Ireland to make Ireland its self a bi-lingual nation, The Structures to support this are already in place, with offical government Services already provided in Irish, and many organisations existing to promote the Irish language and endevouring to expand on the services provided(Public and Private) and oppertunities to use Irish.

See above. Structures already in place for other languages and the price of improving any weaknesses in these existing structures could easily be recouped once we can operate on a global scale.

An important part of the mother tounge plus two proposal put forward Here
Is teaching children how to learn languages.
It is impossible to predict what language the child will want/need in their adult lives. It may well be a case that they choose French in School but need Chinease. That is why children should be tought how to learn languages.

While I can conceed that French may become obselete, I cannot see a world whereby Irish spreads from our shores and to other countries. We can only prepare them for the world we can invision currently and at the moment, we live in a world where Irish is used by a small minority in a small country, whereas there are dozen of far more useful languages they can learn.

Irish Can be benifical here.
Irish is not a latin-derived language, as are most of our Western European counterparts. This means that the grammar, syntax, oral and written use, are utterly utterly different. In educational terms, this provides the Irish speaker, be it as a first or second language, with a distinct advantage in later life. Because Irish is so different to any other European language, once a learner has wrapped their heads around it, any and all of the other latin-derivatives pose far less of a challenge to the learner.

Also in terms of speaking a new language Irish is useful, There are 88(I think, I was a while ago when I saw this) sounds that the human can verbalise.
English only uses 44 of these sounds, Irish uses 63, So when learning how to speak a forighn language, the person who knows how to speak Irish is more likely to already know how to verbalise sounds in that language than an English(Monoglot) speaker.

Finally, a brand new point. And shocker of shockers, it's actually a fairly good one.

My counterpoint would be that we spend 15 years teaching our kids Irish in the hopes that this will what? Make them able to learn another language then? When they've left school and thus the motivation to learn another language starts to fade? Being realistic here, how many people leave school and actually make the effort to learn another language? Open or not, desire or not, people rarely make the effort to learn another language after they have left education.

Of course, this would prove benifical in one way. If students were taught Irish in primary and up to JC (where compulsory and optional really isn't an issue), then by the time the LC course starts up, they should have learned the grammar, syntax, oral and written use to a level whereby they have gained as much out of the subject as it can. If they have not, in their first 13 years of learning the language, got these perks out of their studies as you outlined, then languages simply are not for them and they would be better of investing their time in a more pratical way. If they have, then they should get the chance to move on. At that stage, the LC course should allow them to choose whether to continue Irish, or use what they have learned so far to move into another language, which you claim would be easier to do and which I claim would be more relevant at that stage.

In other words, this still does not help the arguement of why Irish should be compulsory at a Leaving Cert level!

compaqlaptop1

Ill ask this again:

deise go deo: You say a foreign language should be compulsory ---- (let's say I agree to this, which I dont as {a} some people have zero aptitude for languages and would be better of studying something that suits them and {b} the vast majority of people get by just fine with only speaking one language for their entire lives) ----

Well, say I am a student who has completed the junior cert and I would like to do French for the Leaving but drop Irish as I have no interest in it. Explain to me then why you think I should be forced to learn Irish in this case? Please explain how forcing a student to learn a language they dont want to learn is justified?

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

You can believe that all you want, but the truth is that having English & French/Spanish would be of far more benifit on a far larger scale. Regardless, people should be given a choice on those two. This still is not a good arguement for Irish to be compulsory, but rather it is for two other languages to be learned. There's no logical step here to suggest Irish offers any more benifit than any other language there...

I assume you will be backing this point up? There are more Jobs available in Irish and oppertunities to use Irish in Ireland than Spanish/French etc
Now unless you think that it is realistic to expect our Education system to produce Fluent Spanish speakers(For Example) who would be able to compeet for jobs in Spain with native Spanish speakers then your point dosent hold water. Not to mention that the vast majority of Irish people Will not Emigrate, and those that do Emigrate to English speaking Countrys in the main.

I also think that forming our Education System around helping people to Emigrate would be a foolish step at best.

You keep saying this for some reason. Take into account I'd agree to an extent, though I would say "people are open to learning a second language". Most of society see being bilingual as a badge of intelligence and few would ever say they do not think that someone should not try and learn another language. My problem with this statement is thus two fold...

1. The same can be said for just about any arguement in numerous ways (eg; "People are open to learning Spanish", "People are open to learning French", "People are open to learning Klingon") and thus once more leads me to the belief it weakens any arguement, regardless of which side uses it.
2. This still does not prove why COMPULSION is nessecary; if anything, if people are open to Irish as you say, they would still continue to learn it if they were given the option. If you are so afraid that optinality would lead to a decrease in the learning of a language, it means you know deep in your heart that people are not actually open to learning it.

Yes, but when you accept that people are open to learning Irish and the Majority want the emphsis on Irish in the Education system to either remain the same or to be increased then that dose justify Irish being one ofe the 'Plus Two'

As for point two, I have seen evidience that shows that making Language dose lead to a decrease in language learning. The Link is in the OP.

It's obvious there are people not open to learning Irish and who belief it is being forced upon them. They seem to be making up the majority of people posting in this topic. Regardless, I will not speak for them and only for myself; I DO NOT WANT MY KIDS LEARNING IRISH AND WOULD RATHER THEM LEARNING ANOTHER EUROPEAN LANGUAGE. I am living proof that there are people out there who are not open. You can claim to represent the majority, but so can I. Regardless, THIS STILL DOES NOT ADDRESS WHY IT SHOULD BE MADE COMPLUSORY!!! If they want to learn it, they can still do so with it as an optional subject. They can still send their kids to GS schools. No one is saying it should be abolished from the education system. Just that, at a certain point, people are given the option and allowed to prioritise for themselves. If, as you claim, the majority will still choose Irish, why not let those who do not want to opt out?

Indeed, I have never denied that there are those that are not open to learning Irish, But I dont think that the proportion who are not open to it is very small,
You have said that you dont mind Irish being compulsory till JC, And that then there should be a point when people should be allowed to prioritise for themselves. I agree, But I believe this point should be after the LC.

As for this 'they can go to Gaeilscoileanna if they want to learn Irish'.
Demand For Gaeilscoileanna is far ahead of Supply, there are long waiting lists for them and the Government is refusing to recognise new ones despite there currently being 16 campahaines that have sufficent numbers.

Two points here;
1. "In Ireland" are the key words. If we accept there are more Irish jobs in Ireland, can you accept there are more French jobs in the world? By forcing the prioritization of Irish over other languages, so too do you force the youth to commit themselves to Ireland and doom them to a lack of choice in later life.
2. On top of this, I actually don't accept there are more Irish jobs than French, etc. I touched on this in the post you ignored. I am unemployed and am constantly scouring the jobs sections online and in papers. What jobs I see that are not in English are always in French, German, Russian or Chineese. I have not seen a single vacant Irish-speaking job advertised for weeks now, but many in languages that I cannot speak because I was forced to learn Irish instead.

See above for answer to point one.

Point two. What job are you looking for?

See above. Structures already in place for other languages and the price of improving any weaknesses in these existing structures could easily be recouped once we can operate on a global scale.

They certainly are not, Irish is the only language that can beused to make Ireland its self a Bi-Lingual nation. There are no structures at all to do this with a different second language. I am rather suprised with this, I dident expect you to dodge the point I made so callously.

While I can conceed that French may become obselete, I cannot see a world whereby Irish spreads from our shores and to other countries. We can only prepare them for the world we can invision currently and at the moment, we live in a world where Irish is used by a small minority in a small country, whereas there are dozen of far more useful languages they can learn.

That is a strawman argument, I never proposed that Irish would spread to other Countries.

My counterpoint would be that we spend 15 years teaching our kids Irish in the hopes that this will what? Make them able to learn another language then? When they've left school and thus the motivation to learn another language starts to fade? Being realistic here, how many people leave school and actually make the effort to learn another language? Open or not, desire or not, people rarely make the effort to learn another language after they have left education.

No, The Idea is to Make it easier for people who Need/Want to learn another language to do so. While our kids have a solid working knowlage of Irish which is more useful in Ireland.

Of course, this would prove benifical in one way. If students were taught Irish in primary and up to JC (where compulsory and optional really isn't an issue), then by the time the LC course starts up, they should have learned the grammar, syntax, oral and written use to a level whereby they have gained as much out of the subject as it can. If they have not, in their first 13 years of learning the language, got these perks out of their studies as you outlined, then languages simply are not for them and they would be better of investing their time in a more pratical way. If they have, then they should get the chance to move on. At that stage, the LC course should allow them to choose whether to continue Irish, or use what they have learned so far to move into another language, which you claim would be easier to do and which I claim would be more relevant at that stage.

I disagree, Making languages optional do not have a positive outcome for learning them, The Article I linked to in The OP describes the Importance of Status when learning a second language, It shows that reducing the status of a language in one area has a negative knock on affect in all other areas.

deise go deo

compaqlaptop1 wrote: »

Ill ask this again:

deise go deo: You say a foreign language should be compulsory ---- (let's say I agree to this, which I dont as {a} some people have zero aptitude for languages and would be better of studying something that suits them and {b} the vast majority of people get by just fine with only speaking one language for their entire lives) ----

Have you got any evidience to support your claim that some people have zero aptutide for Learning Languages?
As for people geting on just fine with just one language, There are benifits to learning languages in school. I have provided links for this already.
To form our education system around the notion that English is Enough would be short sighted In my opinion. English is in decline as a world language, To compeet, Ireland will need people who are Bi-Lingual, and not only in european languages, Aisian languages such as Indian and Chinease are becoming ever more important in business, That is why it is not only important for Languages to be a central part of our education system, but We must teach students How to learn languages aswell.

Well, say I am a student who has completed the junior cert and I would like to do French for the Leaving but drop Irish as I have no interest in it. Explain to me then why you think I should be forced to learn Irish in this case? Please explain how forcing a student to learn a language they dont want to learn is justified?

I think that not only is it justified to have languages as a Compulsory part of our Educational system from Start to Finish, but necessary. I believe that To make Languages Optional would have negative effects on Education in Ireland and should not happen. I have already outlined at lenght why I believe Irish should be one of the 'Plus two' I advocate.The Fact remains that only a tiny proportion of the population can be concidered to be not open to learning Irish.
The question then becomes is changing the education system to reflect what they want justified and how will doing so affect Education in this Country.

Simply put, I dont think there is a significant enough proportion of the population who are not open to learning Irish to justify changing the System, as changing the system to an optional one would have negative effects on education in Ireland.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

I assume you will be backing this point up? There are more Jobs available in Irish and oppertunities to use Irish in Ireland than Spanish/French etc

You need only count the number of call centres and multi-national companies with offices here to work out how many jobs are available for people who can speak a European language. Those are real jobs too - as opposed to the artificially created state jobs that require the Irish language for political, not practical reasons.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

You need only count the number of call centres and multi-national companies with offices here to work out how many jobs are available for people who can speak a European language. Those are real jobs too - as opposed to the artificially created state jobs that require the Irish language for political, not practical reasons.

Show me how many call centers opperate here through one specific language other that English.

Lord TSC

I assume you will be backing this point up?

In Ireland, jobs are in short supply. Having Irish would certainly help but only in a small handful of jobs. Having a European language will make you more appealing for other jobs, given it would mean you can communicate with people in a large number of countries. You can strike deals with other countries, you can help those who cannot speak English here in this country and you provide an employer with a valuable asset. With Irish, you can communicate with a small minority of people on a small island; a small minority who can speak perfect English anyway. Furthermore, having a foreign language means that you have the option of seeking jobs abroad meaning the possible job pool is far, far bigger. It’s common sense.

There are more Jobs available in Irish and oppertunities to use Irish in Ireland than Spanish/French etc

As I’ve said twice now, I disagree since I am looking at the Irish job market and see far more jobs in French etc than I do in Irish.

Now unless you think that it is realistic to expect our Education system to produce Fluent Spanish speakers(For Example) who would be able to compeet for jobs in Spain with native Spanish speakers then your point dosent hold water. Not to mention that the vast majority of Irish people Will not Emigrate, and those that do Emigrate to English speaking Countrys in the main.

As opposed to all those jobs which require Irish speakers to speak to people who cannot speak English? I’m not arguing that they would have more chance of getting a job than a fluent speaker. Simply they would have a chance to get a job abroad. Something that is impossible with Irish, no matter how fluent you are. Furthermore, take a look around. The youth of Ireland are emigrating or starting to. IIRC, Mary Harney even addressed this recently. Again I say, jobs are in short supply and many are turning to emigration, unfortunately, as the answer.

Yes, but when you accept that people are open to learning Irish

*Bangs head off desk*

....and the Majority want the emphasis on Irish in the Education system to either remain the same or to be increased then that dose justify Irish being one ofe the 'Plus Two'

[/quote]

Yes. If people want Irish to be one of their two, then it should be. If they do not, it should not be. As such, it should be optional. Is that really that difficult to follow?

As for point two, I have seen evidience that shows that making Language dose lead to a decrease in language learning. The Link is in the OP.

It leads to a decrease in specific languages being learned. I still think that two languages should be taught. You’re right on that count. But it should be optional what those languages are. This would mean language learning would not decrease. The truth is that pro-Irish people fear that people would realise Irish is not half as relevant and would thus abandon it in favour of other languages.

But I dont think that the proportion who are not open to it is very small,

Um...I agree? Nor do I think that proportion is small either? Me thinks you meant you DO think it is small <_<

You have said that you dont mind Irish being compulsory till JC, And that then there should be a point when people should be allowed to prioritise for themselves. I agree, But I believe this point should be after the LC.

And I disagree, given I’ve yet to see a decent argument as to the benefits which arise by forcing people to do the language for those two years. Not I am not saying there is no benefit to learning a language in that time. Just that the compulsory nature has not been backed up to any degree in this topic outside a generalisation that “people are open to the idea.”

As for this 'they can go to Gaeilscoileanna if they want to learn Irish'.
Demand For Gaeilscoileanna is far ahead of Supply, there are long waiting lists for them and the Government is refusing to recognise new ones despite there currently being 16 campahaines that have sufficent numbers.

I will not deny there is not a demand. I am saying that the demand does not represent the thought process of the majority. It’s highly likely you’ll disagree there though....

What job are you looking for?

Specifically, English Teaching. Realistically, I’m not sure. Hence why I spend time scouring job sites and newspapers for a way to use my degrees.

They certainly are not, Irish is the only language that can beused to make Ireland its self a Bi-Lingual nation. There are no structures at all to do this with a different second language. I am rather suprised with this, I dident expect you to dodge the point I made so callously.

I’m not dodging the point at all.

What are these structures you believe exist for Irish that does not exist for other languages? Please give an example and I shall address it in full.

That is a strawman argument, I never proposed that Irish would spread to other Countries.

You proposed that we do not know the future and thus we cannot tell if French is going to be relevant in the future. My point was that if I had to make a bet between which would be more relevant and thus what I’d prefer my kids to learn someday, I think the safe money is not on Irish, since it is only used by a small minority on a small island and will probably never be a major language.

No, The Idea is to Make it easier for people who Need/Want to learn another language to do so. While our kids have a solid working knowledge of Irish which is more useful in Ireland.

Fair enough, but surely if they do not have a solid working knowledge of Irish by the end of third year, another 2 or 3 years is not going to help them?

I disagree, Making languages optional do not have a positive outcome for learning them, The Article I linked to in The OP describes the Importance of Status when learning a second language, It shows that reducing the status of a language in one area has a negative knock on affect in all other areas.

Again, I am not saying we should make languages optional. I am saying we should make Irish optional. There is a difference. I am all for making the learning of two languages compulsory. I see the benefits you have outlined and I have said I agree with them 100%. I just think people should have a choice. The problem thus lies in the fact the pro-Irish brigade already know what choice most people will make, despite the “openness” you claim to believe in...

Show me how many call centers opperate here through one specific language other that English.

Probably none really. The thing is most, if not all, call centers will hire people with a variety of different languages to cater to as many different countries as possible. And I really believe that Irish is going to be low on their priority of who to hire cause of the language they speak, since again I say that everyone who can speak Irish can speak perfect English.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

Show me how many call centers opperate here through one specific language other that English.

I'm sorry, but I don't have time to post the name and address here of every call centre or multi-national HQ in Ireland that deals with non-English customers. So why don't you find out yourself instead of relying on others here to spoon feed you the information. You can start the likes of Google, Facebook and Paypal.

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

Pro: The best possible education system achievable.

The dialogue was between the pro and anti sides of compulsion. Ironically you fed the pro side a line more appropriate for the Anti!

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

Going by what you want the Education system to be Languages are important. Language Learning is Important to the education system for several reasons.

You want the education system to 'Help your child grow as a person' and 'Place them in the best possible position following the Compleation of said System'

I contend that the Mother tounge plus two system of Language learning is important to achieving those aims, And I believe that Irish Should be one of the Plus two.

1) Why is language leaning important,

Language learning is more than just allowing a child communicate with a set group of people, It has implications for the childs development, Broader exposure to and appreciation of the value of various cultures as a result of language learning can lead to deeper multi-culturalism and It positivly affects the childs mental development.

ACTFL

2) Why should Irish be one of the 'plus 2'.

The system for teaching Irish to the Entire School population is already in place, Its curriculum in great need of reform, but the physical system is there.

People are open to learning Irish.
It has been suggested that people are not open to Learning Irish, That it is forced upon them, This has been shown to be untrue, The vast majority of people want Irish to be tought in the Education system with the same emphsis or greater emphsis than is currently on it.

There are more Jobs and oppertunities to use Irish than any other Second language in Ireland. Allowing those who learn Irish to keep it and use it After School.

Irish is the only language that can be promoted across Ireland to make Ireland its self a bi-lingual nation, The Structures to support this are already in place, with offical government Services already provided in Irish, and many organisations existing to promote the Irish language and endevouring to expand on the services provided(Public and Private) and oppertunities to use Irish.

One small example of this.


Developed and launched by Glor na nGael a few months ago.



An important part of the mother tounge plus two proposal put forward Here
Is teaching children how to learn languages.
It is impossible to predict what language the child will want/need in their adult lives. It may well be a case that they choose French in School but need Chinease. That is why children should be tought how to learn languages.

Irish Can be benifical here.
Irish is not a latin-derived language, as are most of our Western European counterparts. This means that the grammar, syntax, oral and written use, are utterly utterly different. In educational terms, this provides the Irish speaker, be it as a first or second language, with a distinct advantage in later life. Because Irish is so different to any other European language, once a learner has wrapped their heads around it, any and all of the other latin-derivatives pose far less of a challenge to the learner.

Also in terms of speaking a new language Irish is useful, There are 88(I think, I was a while ago when I saw this) sounds that the human can verbalise.
English only uses 44 of these sounds, Irish uses 63, So when learning how to speak a forighn language, the person who knows how to speak Irish is more likely to already know how to verbalise sounds in that language than an English(Monoglot) speaker.



So to conclude. I believe that the best possible education system achievable is on that has Compulsory language learning based on a mother tounge plus two model, And I believe that Irish should be one of the Plus two for the reasons above.

Someone actually arguing that a bi-lingual nation is a good thing! :eek:

Sure, some nations have to put up with their country being bi-lingual, due to unfortunate circumstance, but promoting it? :P

Well, at least if there isn't segregation I s'pose. :pac:

I wonder how much public funding that Scrabble as Gaeilge got. I'm assuming lots. If not they will go broke (unless bought by schools... which is also public money... so same difference).

That jobs exist in Ireland for Irish speakers is true. That these jobs exist is itself a problem as they are a poor allocation of resources.

Moreover as these are not real jobs they do not really benefit the country's economy. The jobs in themselves do not add to productivity, so it is merely the payment of public funds into a vacuum. This vacuum is the maintenance of a language that is being supported beyond its natural capacity.

Irish is a romantic language (at least modern Irish is) so there is no amazing gulf that you claim (in fact, most words are phonetically similar to their English counterparts... even the 'to be' verb, the most important one in any language, is spelled the same quite a lot of the time!... even if someone isn't ever likely to say 'Is like me' when they mean 'I like').

Besides which you say that because it is so unlike romantic languages it makes it easier to learn romantic languages because it is totally different. I'll move away from that one methinks

You say it promotes multiculturalism. Kind of an odd pronouncement, as one would consider both English and Irish to be of the same culture on the island... unless English is actually foreign!

Going back to

Anti compulsion: Why Irish?
Pro compulsion: Nationalism!

And why compulsion?
Well that's already been addressed.

So it's useless in terms of adding to the economy of our country... apart the manner in which teaching Irish adds to the strength of the Gaelteachts, thus strengthing tourism. However, it is a bit circuitous to attempt to strengthen the Gaelteachts by making the whole of the country learn the language. Don't they get enough money from us as it is?

Besides which, Gaeilge has very little to do with Irish culture inof itself... or to be fair, at least the current way in which it is taught (attempts to make it 'alive' and 'current' have seen attempts to make it seem relevant to teenagers and .... uggghhh cool )

So it is a drain on our finances teaching it
It is draconian the manner in which nobody can go through our education system and dismiss it until they reach 3rd level.
It is a drain on the time pupils have which they could be learning more productive subjects
It is itself so molested by attempts to modernise it that it has lost a lot of the cultural value it might have had;which coupled with a poor syllabus, makes it almost culturally void
It promotes the creation of jobs that are merely tax-drains.

Wow. :eek:

EDIT: Of course, most of the arguments you use could be used to promote the compulsory teaching of Latin (provided you are going to remove the 'nationalism' straw man [note: I hate the term straw man, but it's relevant here]). Moreover, it would better suit your arguments concerning culture, and a greater breadth of knowledge for the pupil's mind. It would also give a fundamental understanding of European languages (fundamental in its literal sense). Also it is foreign and works differently due to its reflexive nature. There are no different dialects (god-damn ulster dialect... nggghhh). It is stable, yet broad.

Of course it should never be made compulsory. Moreover, it shouldn't be taught in primary schools (or at least early in primary schools) because children wouldn't have grasped the rules of English well enough to start turning around and doing something totally different. Actually forcing them to? - jaysus! Besides which, you know if its primary school it would be taught badly - no rules of grammar and solid stuff that makes things makes sense... just pathetic attempts at immersion (water-boarding).

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

In Ireland, jobs are in short supply. Having Irish would certainly help but only in a small handful of jobs. Having a European language will make you more appealing for other jobs, given it would mean you can communicate with people in a large number of countries. You can strike deals with other countries, you can help those who cannot speak English here in this country and you provide an employer with a valuable asset. With Irish, you can communicate with a small minority of people on a small island; a small minority who can speak perfect English anyway. Furthermore, having a foreign language means that you have the option of seeking jobs abroad meaning the possible job pool is far, far bigger. It’s common sense.

Firstly, there are far more than a small hand ful of jobs available In Irish.

Secondly, I think you are overestimating how many jobs require someone to make deals with other countrys. Secondly, How many people do you think learn a forrighn language and then use it to work in that country? It just dosent happen to any significant degree.

As I’ve said twice now, I disagree since I am looking at the Irish job market and see far more jobs in French etc than I do in Irish.

Well thats the problem with personal experience. It rarely gives an accurate reflection of the wider situation.

As opposed to all those jobs which require Irish speakers to speak to people who cannot speak English? I’m not arguing that they would have more chance of getting a job than a fluent speaker. Simply they would have a chance to get a job abroad. Something that is impossible with Irish, no matter how fluent you are. Furthermore, take a look around. The youth of Ireland are emigrating or starting to. IIRC, Mary Harney even addressed this recently. Again I say, jobs are in short supply and many are turning to emigration, unfortunately, as the answer.

Difficult, Not Impossible. Many universitys around the World offer courses either in or that have a moduel in Irish, There is Even a Gaelthacht in Canada.

Yes. If people want Irish to be one of their two, then it should be. If they do not, it should not be. As such, it should be optional. Is that really that difficult to follow?

That is not hard to follow at all, I can clearly see where you are coming from, I just happen to disagree with you.

It leads to a decrease in specific languages being learned. I still think that two languages should be taught. You’re right on that count. But it should be optional what those languages are. This would mean language learning would not decrease. The truth is that pro-Irish people fear that people would realise Irish is not half as relevant and would thus abandon it in favour of other languages.

Three,(English Being One)
The Reason I think Irish should remain Compulsory as well as English is that A) It has benifits beyond other (European)languages in Educational terms, and People want The Emphsis on learning Irish to Stay at its current level, or Be Increased.

Um...I agree? Nor do I think that proportion is small either? Me thinks you meant you DO think it is small <_<

Indeed I do think its small. Have you anything that suggests it isent?

And I disagree, given I’ve yet to see a decent argument as to the benefits which arise by forcing people to do the language for those two years. Not I am not saying there is no benefit to learning a language in that time. Just that the compulsory nature has not been backed up to any degree in this topic outside a generalisation that “people are open to the idea.”

The Reason I say that people are open to it is that People not being open to it has been cited as a reason to make it Optional.

The reasons to keep it Compulsory in those two years are delt with in the article I linked to in the OP, Its to do with status, I think that it has been clearly shown that people want Irish to be preserved/promoted, When asked in a survey 93% were in favour of this, The vast majority in a secont survey want to Keep the same emphsis on or increase the Emphsis on Irish in the education system. I would like to know how you propose to achieve this if Irish is made optional.

I will not deny there is not a demand. I am saying that the demand does not represent the thought process of the majority. It’s highly likely you’ll disagree there though....

Gaelscoileanna are a seprate Issue, I did not cite them to support compulsion in Schools, though they do show that interest in Irish is growing rather than declining and would play an important role in promoting a bi-lingual nation if Irish was kept as a compulsory subject in schools(with the necessary curriculum reforms)

I’m not dodging the point at all.

What are these structures you believe exist for Irish that does not exist for other languages? Please give an example and I shall address it in full.

The supports for making Ireland a Bi-Lingual nation do not exist in any other second language.

Supports such as state services provided through Irish, Irish classes being provided across the country outside the Education system, Organisations like CnaG, Glor na nGeal, Comhludar, The Cultúrlanns in NI that work to devolop the language both in their own community and nationally.

You proposed that we do not know the future and thus we cannot tell if French is going to be relevant in the future. My point was that if I had to make a bet between which would be more relevant and thus what I’d prefer my kids to learn someday, I think the safe money is not on Irish, since it is only used by a small minority on a small island and will probably never be a major language.

The vast majority of Irish people will not emigrate, not to mention emigrate to France. So it is their usefulness in this country that that is relevant, Now in this country, the safe money bet is not on French, Its on Irish.

Dont get me wrong, I think it is very important that in addition to Irish and English that a forighn language should be learnt, But I think that Irish is justified as one of the Plus Two.

Secondly, Irish is more benifical when it comes to learning further languages than French.

Fair enough, but surely if they do not have a solid working knowledge of Irish by the end of third year, another 2 or 3 years is not going to help them?

Would not the same apply to English? If they havent figured out who shakspear was by JC another two years isent going to make much Difference.
I disagree with the notion that the last 2 years are unimportant, The LC course is very important for developing a greater competency,
As you say Learning languages is important to LC, and should be compulsory. But could you not say that if people are not proficent in the language they have chosen to do then simmilarly the last 2 years is unlikly to change that? and so language learning shoule be optional for those with the interest/ability?
Either way, it is clear that the majority want the Emphsis on Irish to be maintained or increased, making Irish optional wont do that.

Again, I am not saying we should make languages optional. I am saying we should make Irish optional. There is a difference. I am all for making the learning of two languages compulsory. I see the benefits you have outlined and I have said I agree with them 100%. I just think people should have a choice. The problem thus lies in the fact the pro-Irish brigade already know what choice most people will make, despite the “openness” you claim to believe in...

Not at all, The main concern is that if language learning is made optional then language learning and Irish along with them colapse, If all was fair and a language had to be studied then I think Irish would do quite well, The biggest concern in that case is its curriculum,(Which is the biggest concern anyway) Which would drive people from the subject as it just dosent work.

Probably none really. The thing is most, if not all, call centers will hire people with a variety of different languages to cater to as many different countries as possible. And I really believe that Irish is going to be low on their priority of who to hire cause of the language they speak, since again I say that everyone who can speak Irish can speak perfect English.

Care to show me somthing to back this up. Call centers are low paying jobs are they not, Hardly likely to attract people with several languages.

I dont see why you feel the need to point out that Irish is not very useful for geting a job in a call center, I never suggested it was.

Lord TSC

Firstly, there are far more than a small hand ful of jobs available In Irish.

Secondly, I think you are overestimating how many jobs require someone to make deals with other countrys. Secondly, How many people do you think learn a forrighn language and then use it to work in that country? It just dosent happen to any significant degree.

And I think you are overestimating how many jobs require Irish.

And I'm not saying that everyone who learns a foregin language uses it for that purpose. I am saying we should be giving people a choice of what languages they want to learn, and that they should be given their own choice and use their own reasons.

Well thats the problem with personal experience. It rarely gives an accurate reflection of the wider situation.

DING DING DING! We have a winner.

You don't think that perhaps your personal experience is just as biased as mine is? That your own beliefs may be clouding your viewpoint and what an acurate situation is? That that could be why this arguement is going nowhere?

Difficult, Not Impossible. Many universitys around the World offer courses either in or that have a moduel in Irish, There is Even a Gaelthacht in Canada.

Fair enough. There's practically college courses on everything nowadays if you look hard enough. That still doesn't mean there's any practicality to the language in a real sense outside small areas of Ireland...

The Reason I think Irish should remain Compulsory as well as English is that A) It has benifits beyond other (European)languages in Educational terms,

Which should be instilled in learners after 13 years and should thus be learned enough by the start of the LC course to be of benefit, thus meaning it should be optional and still allow everyone to maintain said advantages.

and People want The Emphsis on learning Irish to Stay at its current level, or Be Increased.

Again, I am not saying otherwise, nor am I trying to stop those people from studying the language. I am saying that those who disagree have a right at a certain stage to opt out.

The Reason I say that people are open to it is that People not being open to it has been cited as a reason to make it Optional.

The reasons to keep it Compulsory in those two years are delt with in the article I linked to in the OP, Its to do with status, I think that it has been clearly shown that people want Irish to be preserved/promoted, When asked in a survey 93% were in favour of this, The vast majority in a secont survey want to Keep the same emphsis on or increase the Emphsis on Irish in the education system. I would like to know how you propose to achieve this if Irish is made optional.

Because if 93% really do think irish should be preserved and promoted, then once its made optional, they will keep going with it. Why wouldn't they? Why not allow that 7% the chance to opt out? You've been avoiding this. If people want to keep doing Irish, why are you so afraid to make it optional? If you are so convinced people want to do Irish, why not offer the choice?

The supports for making Ireland a Bi-Lingual nation do not exist in any other second language.

Supports such as state services provided through Irish, Irish classes being provided across the country outside the Education system, Organisations like CnaG, Glor na nGeal, Comhludar, The Cultúrlanns in NI that work to devolop the language both in their own community and nationally.

State services through other languages would not cost any significant amount to produce. There are plenty of other languages covered in classes outside the education system as well as Irish. The organisations you list only exist because they realise they have to exist; that without them shouting about how important Irish is, people would not use the language. They are circular in nature; the only reason they exist is because they fear Irish will disappear without them and are scared that people will realise theirs and the languages mass unimportance on a larger scale.

Would not the same apply to English? If they havent figured out who shakspear was by JC another two years isent going to make much Difference.

I've already said I think English should also be optional come LC time. If people like the subject, they should get to carry it on. if they think learning about Shakespear is unimportant, they should have the option to drop it. You keep bringing up the "If Irish, why not English", which as I stated is useless against me since I also believe English, on the LC course, should be optional.

I disagree with the notion that the last 2 years are unimportant, The LC course is very important for developing a greater competency,

Key word: Greater. They should be competent by the LC and decide if they think its important to further their skills or if they should invest their time and priorities differently.

Care to show me somthing to back this up. Call centers are low paying jobs are they not, Hardly likely to attract people with several languages.

I'm not saying they would hire one person with multiple languages. I am saying they will hire multiple people who cover multiple languages; that they will need some people who speak French, some who speak German, some who speak Spanish and so forth. I'm also not saying they are high paying jobs but then there's not many high paying jobs out there at the moment and sometimes beggers can't be choosers....

LordSutch

deise go deo wrote: »

The Reason I think Irish should remain Compulsory as well as English is that A) It has benifits beyond other (European)languages in Educational terms, and People want The Emphsis on learning Irish to Stay at its current level, or Be Increased.

Holy mellons, "or be increased" :eek:

And we are arguing for it to be optional, so no compromise in sight then :cool:

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

Holy mellons, "or be increased" :eek:

And we are arguing for it to be optional, so no compromise in sight then :cool:

This was the finding of what the majority of people want in relation to the future of the Education system. Most want the Emphsis to remain as it is now, A significant minority want it to be increased and a handful want it decreased.

Make of it what you will, but that is the evidience.:cool:

MysticalRain

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

You don't think that perhaps your personal experience is just as biased as mine is? That your own beliefs may be clouding your viewpoint and what an acurate situation is? That that could be why this arguement is going nowhere?

Personal experience aside, it's quite easy to find objective evidence to demonstrate that there are vastly more jobs that require a foreign language compared with Irish. Just log on to any random Irish jobs website and compare the listings for gaelic jobs vs foreign language ones.

Enkidu

RandomName2 wrote: »

Irish is a romantic language (at least modern Irish is)

No, it's a Celtic language.

RandomName2 wrote: »

in fact, most words are phonetically similar to their English counterparts..

No they aren't. Usually they're not remotely similar.

Lord TSC

Unfortunatly, Mystic Rain, to prove that, someone will have to sit down and link to a load of sites proving that fact. I'll do it tomorrow evening if needs must (got a busy busy day tomorrow) unless someone wants to do it for me. Sadly, some will probably just dismiss it anyway

In the mean time, I'm going to stop posting the same replies to the same replies hence forth. There's only so many times I can read "people are open..." and not scream at my computer.

MysticalRain

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Unfortunatly, Mystic Rain, to prove that, someone will have to sit down and link to a load of sites proving that fact. I'll do it tomorrow evening if needs must (got a busy busy day tomorrow) unless someone wants to do it for me. Sadly, some will probably just dismiss it anyway

Or they could just step outside their bubble for a second, and go do the googling for themselves.

Enkidu

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Unfortunatly, Mystic Rain, to prove that, someone will have to sit down and link to a load of sites proving that fact. I'll do it tomorrow evening if needs must (got a busy busy day tomorrow) unless someone wants to do it for me. Sadly, some will probably just dismiss it anyway

Ah man!, don't go doing something like that and waste your time, it's obviously true that there are more jobs for important international languages.

RandomName2

Enkidu wrote: »

No, it's a Celtic language.


No they aren't. Usually they're not remotely similar.

Off the top of my head

ith eat
rith run
caoineadh cry (although keening, an english word, is derived from Irish as an odd example)
scoil school
peann pen
cistean kitchen
cupla couple
pairce park

And that's about half of the words I just thought up in a 90 second period. Yet, none of these are the silly made-up words that represent modern English equivalents that have just been Geilicised... television, helicopter, etc.

As for the words that don't obviously have an English origin, I would be surprised if they are entirely indigenous (I suspect a Germanic influence of some sort, but cannot be bothered to do an etymological trawl). The very fact that there is a standardised language (forgetting about the silly dialects for a moment) is homage to the influence of outsiders without whom the language would not have been transcribed.

English of course is a strange conglomeration of German (its older, more primitive words) and French (it's newer more... 'fancy' words)
Horse -> German
Cavalry --> French
House --> German
Mansion --> French
king --> German (okay, Norse)
Emperor --> French

But why am I bothering to mention all this? Part of my long campaign, I suppose, to explode the myth of complete uniqueness in any culture in the British Isles (which, before you suggest my calling it the British Isles makes me West-Brit as the saying goes, British literally means Welsh).

Learning Gaeilge as a form of national flag waving is both irrelevant (from a practical point of view) and inaccurate (relative to its status as a prime identifier of 'what it means to be Irish) .

LordSutch

deise go deo wrote: »

This was the finding of what the majority of people want in relation to the future of the Education system. Most want the Emphsis to remain as it is now, A significant minority want it to be increased and a handful want it decreased.

Make of it what you will, but that is the evidience.:cool:

'But and depending on how the question is asked' Irish people will generally claim that they are very proud to be Irish & that the language must be upheld at all costs! but thats what people say, they just say it in a kinda throwaway fashion 'Ah sure of course Irish should be kept alive', even though most of them cant speak it, and they don't encourage their kids to speak it either! > but if you stand back for a moment deise go deo, and look at this country through the eyes of a visitor to these shores, what would you see/hear? very little spoken Irish, but lots of lip service to 'the cause' (of speaking Irish) just like there has always been, since the foundation of the State . . . . . .

Its quite possible that the Status Quo will carry on for another generation, all children will continue with compulsory Irish, most will leave school with the cupla focal at best, as they currently do, and people like me will still complain in twenty years time that its an awful waste of childrens time (1000's of hours over the course of a childs educational lifetime), and people like you deise go deo will continue to demand that Irish must remain Mandatory at all costs.

Its a lose lose battle for my argument really, I cant see any light at the end of the tunnel for my kids, or theirs, so we will all just have to comply as our parents did, but we hate it, we really hate it, we hate the mandatory nature of the way Irish is force fed in the school curriculum.

RandomName2

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Unfortunatly, Mystic Rain, to prove that, someone will have to sit down and link to a load of sites proving that fact. I'll do it tomorrow evening if needs must (got a busy busy day tomorrow) unless someone wants to do it for me. Sadly, some will probably just dismiss it anyway

In the mean time, I'm going to stop posting the same replies to the same replies hence forth. There's only so many times I can read "people are open..." and not scream at my computer.

Particularly since "people are open..." is entirely irrelevant to the discussion!

"People are open to the death penalty."
"Did you ask the people who were executed?"
"They're not complaining "

---

Quite frankly leaning something like economics or chemistry would be more useful than learning french or spanish (as we already know the most useful language in the world... besides C#! Oh, java's also good, I suppose ).

But having said all that, learning Czech or Magyar would be more useful than learning Irish.

Why?

BECAUSE THERE ARE JOBS OUTSIDE OF PET GOVERNMENT PROJECTS OR PUBLICLY SUBSIDISED COMPANIES WHO HIRE PEOPLE WITH THOSE LANGUAGE SKILLS!

I.e. those languages are actually living, and are spoken by more people that can speak Irish. Also they might actually be spoken by people who know those languages, but NOT English (unlike any person speaking Irish).

End.

Now! to learn Structured Query Language! Irish is really paying off for me right now!

deise go deo

Firstly I would like to apologize for taking so long to answer this post.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Presumably making a statement that gaelscoileannas preform better than English speaking schools can be backed up in a simple manner, by providing evidence of results in school following their time there. Presumably since you make a statement such as this one, you have figures to back up that those who attended Gaelscoileanna do indeed preform better than the National Average. The best way of proving this would obviously be to link some studies which show higher JC and LC results, higher uptake of jobs, etc. Or at the very least, provide me some stats to show that they do better on nationally standardised tests. Even then, make sure that it actually takes into account other factors such as family background, quality of teacher, etc. Not just a single aspect of a single stat that can be twisted.

No, I cant, My claim was one in passing, based on several points made in writings about Immersion education, but unfortunatly there is no detailed study as far as I know, The Minister for education refused to have research carried out on Immersion Education claiming there was no reason to do so.

Some of the points my claim was based on:

English literacy standards in Irish-medium schools are as high or higher than national standardised averages. According to school assessment and research findings of the Department of Education and Science, 1991

Gaelscoileanna Teo

Advantages of Immersion Education

Some of the documented advantages of immersion education include:
Curriculum Advantages
1. Greater academic success.
2. Easier to learn a third and fourth language.
Communicative Advantages
3 Bilingualism (the ability to speak two languages fluently).
4. Biliteracy (the ability to read and write in two languages).
5. Wider communication (extended family, community, friends, employment).
Cultural Advantages
6. Broader exposure to and appreciation of the value of various cultures (enculturation), deeper multi-culturalism, greater tolerance and less racism.
Cognitive Advantages
7. Thinking benefits (creativity, sensitivity to communication).
Character Advantages
8. Raised self-esteem.
9. Security in identity.
Financial Advantages
10. Economic and employment benefits.
(adapted by GAELSCOILEANNA TEO. from Baker, 2003)

Feel free to ignore my point because I can't back it up with rock solid evidence, But you might want to start backing some of your own claims up with such evidence.

See, this seems to be the crux of the debate in my eyes. Those who are pro-Irish seem desperate to cling on to this connection with a nostalgic past and claim Irish is an important part of Ireland's identity. I disagree there, but ultimatly, that's an opinion (as you admit) and there's little we can do to change each other's minds on that. My worry is that in order to save this identity that a huge chunk of the population seem quite connent to let die, the pro-Irish brigade will force everyone to learn it. But I'll come back to the compulsory arguement a bit further down...For now, let's say that's your opinion. Mine is that the Irish language is not an important part of Ireland's identity at all, since chances are if I asked a non-Irish person to make a list of what makes someone Irish Irish, the language will be coming pretty far down the list, behind Alcohol, Riverdance and Economic Crisis...

I would ask you to provide some Evidence for your claim that a huge chunk of the population are content to let Irish Die. It should be a simple matter.

Unfortunately the evidence put forward so far contradicts this claim.

In a survey on peoples opinion of Irish 93% wanted Irish to be preserved or promoted, only 6% were content to let it die.

In a survey on Irish in the education system the vast majority want either the same or greater emphasis on Irish in both Primary and Secondary level.

Not really true. Thankfully, those who do speak Irish are able to translate those texts which are not already translated into English for us. Furthermore, what texts are not avialable nowadays to those who cannot speak Irish? As someone who did his Masters around colonial and postcolonial texts in Ireland, I never found my resources limited because I couldn't speak Irish. What literature exactly cannot be understood nowadays in terms of actual literal importance and not a nostalgic desire? It's like saying Christians cannot fully understand the literature associated with their religion cause they cannot speak the languages the bible was originally written in...

Not so, As has been said earlier in this thread, Liturature cannot be read and fully understood in another language, the basic meaning and concepts and story shure, but subtle play on words etc are lost.

You reference the Bibel, That as a document has certainly been tarnished to an extent by repeated translation, To the extent that it contradicts its self in several places,
One example from the Bibel, Jesus spent 40 days and nights in the desert, But in Greek, 40 also means many, so Jesus may have spent many days and night in the desert. How many was considered many in the holy land 2000 years ago?

Heres another example, The book 'All Quiet on the western front' In its original German, The book was called 'Nothing new on the western front'.

So no, I don't agree that literature can be fully appreciated when read in a language other than the one it was written in.

I'd despute this fact as well, to be honest. I'm currently unemployed and thus am checking jobseeker's sites constantly. And constantly, the jobs I am seeing available in Ireland are ones working on phone lines for companies who want people with French/Spanish/Russian etc. Rarely do I see jobs out there for Irish speakers, other than the odd Irish teacher. But as has been stated constantly, the jobs whihch do exist seem to only exist to justify the compulsion of Irish. That makes no sense when you step back and think about it. There are only jobs out there for Irish speakers cause people are forced to speak Irish. If Irish wasn't compulsory, then these jobs wouldn't be needed in the slightest. Furthermore, one could state at this stage that the same opportunities would thus exist if French or Spainish was subbed into Irish's place. If people spoke French, there would be more jobs available in French in Ireland. Furthermore, given that the government seem quite happy to be letting the youth of Ireland emigrate, one would imagine it would make more sense to learn a language which would find more jobs available in numerous countries than to learn one which is only used by a small minority in this one.

What job have you been looking for, Arguing from personal experience is a week argument.

I did provide a list of jobs that can be available to Irish speakers. But this time I will just provide a few examples of Irish speaking Job oppertunities.


PostGrad.ie

Here is an actual job if anyone is interested in it.

Customer Service Advisor

And Another.

Translator

Supports are already in place at a primary level, but I can't see how it would cost too much more to implement the teaching of French/Spanish etc into schools, since there's an overabundance of qualified yet unemployed teachers out there at the moment. Furthermore, whatever cost would ultimatly be recouped given than if kids were learning these languages from a young age, they would better be able to deal with people on a larger scale once they leave school, would thus be able to not only obtain but be better at their jobs in the future, and would thus be bringing more money into the system. For a small short term price, the long term gain would be astronomical. Furthermore, while again I admit that all the advantages you point out to English/Irish are true, it still doesn't change the fact that English/French or English/Spainish would be far more benifical in the long run and on a global scale.

Be better at their jobs, Assuming they are working in this country, Not to mention that these will most likly be multinational companies who will send their profits out of Ireland.

It's a barrier when people insist it should be a first or second language and thus insist the time is spent on it. When this order of priority is given at the most important stages (primary school), it can have a detrimental effect to attempts to study the language at the next level. It's not that I don't think three languages can be learned. It's more that I think they should be prioritised based on which is going to be of the most importance on a global level in the future, and when you do that, Irish comes lower down the list again.

So we should teach Spanish and Chinease in our primary schools? Despite the fact that these languages will be of very little use in Ireland over the coming years. Teaching Irish will help students learn languages in later life not be a barrier to it.

Name one Irish speaking job out there that would go exist if Irish did actually die off?

Care to do the same for any other language. Irish is not going to 'die off' in our life time.

Pretty much all of the jobs for Irish speakers out there are teachers (which, obviously, would not be needed should Irish disappear) and translators (who aren't really needed since everyone who can speak irish can speak English). After that, you've got vanity projects such as TV stations or attempts at newspapers which are not vital to the everyday life but exist rather so people can maintain some link to the past they claim to cherish. Of course, the problem here is how selective people seem to be when it comes to choosing what relics of the past are maintained; we don't live in mud huts or wear lionclothes. We don't run through the fields like wild men, hunting our dinner. We don't have a barter system like in the past. People have evolved, and in doing so, they've chosen what is vital to future success, and what is no longer nessecary to survive. Given that Irish is not actually nessecary to survival, it really is not needed outside of a desire to maintain a link to the past. And while that desire is admirable, it should not be forced on people. People should be given a choice as to whether or not they keep learning a language that the vast majority of the country has decided is unnessecary on a daily basis.

I think this is a shockingly poor argument. The two ideas put forward are Jobs that use Irish are not real jobs, and Irish is a relic like mud huts and like them people have chosen to abandon it.

1) There dose exist on this island a community of Irish speakers that has existed before and would continue to exist after compulsion of Irish in Schools. The government provides that community, and everyone else who wants it, with services in their native language, something very few people have a problem with. For this service to be provided then there needs to be people to provide it. Thus these jobs exist. You may consider these jobs to be 'artificial' but I do not.
There are many other jobs than this that exist because there is enough demand to support them. But feel free to ignore them.

2) You contend that Irish is akin to mud huts and running through the fields like wild men. An ignorant and offencive comparision in my opinion.

This dosent even deserve a responce really but anyway.

-What do you think there is in the secondary school curriculum that is 'Necessary for survival'? Note I did not say for a decent standard of living or future prospects, but merely survival. Given the abject lack of anything in secondary school that is vital in this sence should it be optional?
-You seem to think that the majority have decided not to use Irish in their everyday lives. You have an interesting idea on what constitutes choice given that using Irish is not an option for people that leave the education system with out it. Perhaps we could make Irish an optional subject for the LC but give the same ammount of options for it that people have for your supposed choice, Ie 1.

Over the last two days, I've read every single post in here. What strikes me is that, constantly, there is two answers given to the question "Why should Irish be complusory?".

I have referenced that several times, The answer is in the OP, Reducing the status of a language by making it optional has negative implications for it across the educaton system, Given that people clearly do not want this then it would be wrong to do so.

1. Bilingual status can help a child.

Which i agree with, but does nothing for the pro-Irish arguement since it can easily be used for a pro-French or pro-Spanish arguement as well.

There are advantages to Irish in terms of later language learning over other latin derived languages, I have previously expanded on that point.

2. Why not? When English and Maths are, why not Irish?

Given that this point falls apart when one admits that neither English or Maths should be complusory either, it does seem to have flaws. Even apart from that, this strikes me as a poor excuse. "Why not?" is not an answer but a blatent dodge and admital there is no legit answer to hand.

I admit no such thing, I believe both English and Maths should remain as compulsory subjects.

The burden of proof as to why it should remain as it is in terms of compulsion lies with the pro-Irish side of this debate. The pro-Irish point to studies which seem to have loaded questions and a belief that there are people "open" to learning a language, whatever that means. (I'd imagine everyone would be "open" to learning a second or third language, but that does not mean there is a desire to do work to achieve this goal). The anti-Irish group can point to the real world, where only a small minority of people actually speak the language and where, outside of Ireland, it holds absolutly no use. We can point to a world where everything from television, newspapers, even food wrappers are displayed in English in the vast majority of stores. We can point to reality instead of a belief and an opinion of what people might want, and state that if people actually wanted to maintain the Irish language, we would not even be having this conversation.

If we were just talking about Irish then maybe it would but now we are talking about compulsion in general. It is you who are suggesting a massive change to the education system. So the burden of proof is with you to prove that your concept that all subjects should be optional is valid. Compulsion in some form is common in education in most countries, If you believe that having all subjects optional then show me a country that operates a system such as that where you can show that the results are superior to countries with compulsion in their education system.

And the pro-Irish group can point to a faulty curriculum that dose not teach the subject effectively, Given that people who want to learn Irish are frustrated by and prevented from learning it in school then a logical conclusion to why people don't learn Irish effectively is that the curriculum dose not allow them to.

If you want to point to compulsion as the problem then show me why people who want to learn Irish(for whom compulsion is not an issue) are still frustrated in their efforts and fail to learn the language effectively.

Ultimatly, I do believe people should have a choice. They do to an extent at Primary level currently, as the popularity of GS schools start to grow. Those who wish for their children to be educated through Irish can have them done so, and that is their right. But it strikes me that come Leaving Cert time, so too should people have a choice to choose what language they wish to study and continue. A language should be compulsory. The arguements from both sides strongly suggest this. However the fact remains that not a single arguement has been made to state that Irish should be this language has been made. Not one benifit has been offered, outside a desire to insulate the country by studying a historic relic instead of searching for a way to make out land more globally successful, as to why Irish should be prioritised over French/Spanish etc.

I dont see what gaelscoileanna have to do with this argument. Perhaps people who dont want to do Irish should have to go through the same process for their choice to be allowed, ie have to set up their own school and jump through hoops to get them recognized by the state. Unfortunately there is no right to have your child educated in a gaelscoil. The situation currently where 16 campaigns for new gaelscoileanna are being blocked by the government would be quickly resolved in court if there was.

sadly, being the internet, it is unlikely anyone will change their positions The joy of anonymoity is that people can make wild claims and hold beliefs without having to back up their positions. Instead, we can simply all start shouting the same one or two lines for 30 pages without really furthering the discussion.

Ok, I'll stop now. Wonder if anyone will bother to read all of that <_<

Well you can think that of me but when dealing with people that have constantly mis represented, misinterpreted and disregarded the points put forward and ask questions already answered several times then there is not much else that can be done except re-state the position and try to back the arguments up as best can be while doing so.

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

DING DING DING! We have a winner.

You don't think that perhaps your personal experience is just as biased as mine is? That your own beliefs may be clouding your viewpoint and what an acurate situation is? That that could be why this arguement is going nowhere?

I have no problem admitting my bias in favor of the language, that is why evidence is of vital importance, I have tried to provide links to support my points as much as possible and have asked others to support their arguments to, often to no avail sadly.

Because if 93% really do think irish should be preserved and promoted, then once its made optional, they will keep going with it. Why wouldn't they? Why not allow that 7% the chance to opt out? You've been avoiding this. If people want to keep doing Irish, why are you so afraid to make it optional? If you are so convinced people want to do Irish, why not offer the choice?

If, (<-This is important)
We had a situation where the learning of 3 languages was compulsoryand all languages were optional including English, (Ie mother tongue plus 2 with out the mother tongue, English for most, being compulsory) then I would personally not have a problem with Irish being optional.
The curriculum would need major reform for this to happen without Irish being dropped on mass as in my opinion learning Irish through its current curriculum is basically pointless as most will not learn the language to any competency. Some have suggested that i have been arguing for Curriculum being at fault just to divert attention from compulsion, but really the current Curriculum of Irish is truly dire.

I still believe that ther is merit in Having irish as a compulsory subject, But in the above situation, I would not mind it being made optional.

My defense of Irish as a compulsory subject was in the context of Irish just being made optional in the current system.

State services through other languages would not cost any significant amount to produce. There are plenty of other languages covered in classes outside the education system as well as Irish. The organisations you list only exist because they realise they have to exist; that without them shouting about how important Irish is, people would not use the language. They are circular in nature; the only reason they exist is because they fear Irish will disappear without them and are scared that people will realise theirs and the languages mass unimportance on a larger scale.

They may not cost more, but to do it with out costing more then services provided through Irish would have to be scraped,

Then there is the question of which language to choose and why, it can only be one after all.

Then there is the question of demand, For the chosen language, is there currently enough people in Ireland to justify such services.

And finally and most importantly, Is there any desire for that language to be promoted to such an extent?

For Irish it is realistic to promote to being the Second language of a bi-lingual Ireland, But I would like you to suggest what other language could fill this role realistically.

I've already said I think English should also be optional come LC time. If people like the subject, they should get to carry it on. if they think learning about Shakespear is unimportant, they should have the option to drop it. You keep bringing up the "If Irish, why not English", which as I stated is useless against me since I also believe English, on the LC course, should be optional.

Actually that would be 'If English, why not Irish'.

As you support English being made optional and not just Irish, I can respect your advocacy of Irish being made optional, And as outlined above, I would not be against Irish being made optional as well as English, as long as language learning its self was compulsory.

Rebelheart

MysticalRain wrote: »

Or they could just step outside their bubble for a second.

So, those who disagree with you live in a "bubble". Would that we were all as enlightened as your patronising little self. :rolleyes:

MysticalRain

Rebelheart wrote: »

So, those who disagree with you live in a "bubble". Would that we were all as enlightened as your patronising little self. :rolleyes:

-1 for resorting to using straw man arguments to make a point.
-2 for engaging in ad hominem attacks.

deise go deo

I just read that the support for the Irish language provided by the state(Ie everything, not just education) costs per head of population 287 euro.

For comparison
The Defense Budget is 226 euro per head of population.
This years Health Budget(Biggest single expense) costs 3,707 euro per head of population.


So what do you think is it too much? More than you expected, less?



Completely off topic I know, But to me it dident seam that bad, I spend more on PS3 games in a year.


Edit.
I should add that some of the figures are a little out of date, except the health budget, which is probably going to end up being too low, But the figures provided should give a good idea on the Costs.