The Status Of Irish.

Dannyboy83

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Well, only you would know that.

Apparently not, Oasis_Dublin seems to have an opinion on it, and given that you thanked his statement, it appears you do.

Care to elaborate?
Am I less Irish than you if I cannot or choose not to speak the Irish Language?
What is your opinion on it Cú Giobach?

Cú Giobach

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

And another.
Maybe I'm not an Irishman
(in reference to Oasis_Dublin's implicit statement that we are faux-British/British-wannabes because we don't speak Irish)

Now he didn't, he took the piss out of the D4 accent saying we should learn a progressive language like Chinese.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Apparently not, Oasis_Dublin seems to have an opinion on it, and given that you thanked his statement, it appears you do.

Care to elaborate?
Am I less Irish than you if I cannot or choose not to speak the Irish Language?
What is your opinion on it Cú Giobach?

I have said countless times on this board I consider all people born and reared on this Island as Irish and all equally Irish, regardless of religion, ethnicity, skin colour, language or ancestry.

Iwasfrozen

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I have said countless times on this board I consider all people born and reared on this Island as Irish and all equally Irish, regardless of religion, ethnicity, skin colour, language or ancestry.

Even the ones who have told you they aren't Irish. Isn't that rather rude?

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If everyone else sticks to the vernacular, I will too

But if everyone wants to speak in languages that other people have explicitly stated in this thread that they do not understand - which is extremely rude - I'm more than happy to return the favour;)

Its quite clear that there is no place for Irish on the main forum unfortunately, as evidenced by the (at least tactful)mod warning. I disagree completely that using Irish, or any other language is rude, I do think its rude to Insist on everyone sticking to English to suit you, but thats just me, If you wanted to post in Russian in a thread that is discussing the Russian language then it wouldent bother me in the slightest, it would just seam odd that people were getting so upset about it.

I will explain it in English if you like i.e. the vernacular.
There is about as much sense repeating it in Irish as there is in Polish/Russian/French.


I can speak in another language also.
I'm the fcuking best
(If you relied on an online translator, as the cupla focal brigade do, you'd get the literal meaning, rather than the contextual)


And another.
Maybe I'm not an Irishman
(in reference to Oasis_Dublin's implicit statement that we are faux-British/British-wannabes because we don't speak Irish)

I dont consider it rude in the slightest that you posted in Russian, The only reason I asked for a translation is that google couldn't translate the first part of it.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I do think its rude to Insist on everyone sticking to English to suit you, but thats just me

Indeed it is.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Indeed it is.

Im surprised cyclopath, you think that languages other than English should be allowed on the forum, And that its not rude to speak Irish?

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Its quite clear that there is no place for Irish on the main forum unfortunately, as evidenced by the (at least tactful)mod warning. I disagree completely that using Irish, or any other language is rude, I do think its rude to Insist on everyone sticking to English to suit you, but thats just me, If you wanted to post in Russian in a thread that is discussing the Russian language then it wouldent bother me in the slightest, it would just seam odd that people were getting so upset about it.

It's not just to suit him. It's to suit everyone. Wouldn't you think it rude if you and a friend who could speak Irish started talking in Irish in front of another friend who can't? By speaking a language other then english you're leaving other people out of the conversation. Which is rude.

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

Its quite clear that there is no place for Irish on the main forum unfortunately, as evidenced by the (at least tactful)mod warning. I disagree completely that using Irish, or any other language is rude, I do think its rude to Insist on everyone sticking to English to suit you, but thats just me, If you wanted to post in Russian in a thread that is discussing the Russian language then it wouldent bother me in the slightest, it would just seam odd that people were getting so upset about it.

This is going O/T, but it's an English language forum, the thread was started and conducted in English, so switching to another language - which some of the people participating in the thread cannot understand & where everyone can understand the vernacular - would not be considerate of me, you or anyone excluding others.

I dont consider it rude in the slightest that you posted in Russian, The only reason I asked for a translation is that google couldn't translate the first part of it.

Fair enough, I guess you are lucky that you don't find it rude.
Part of the reason I learned Slavic languages was because I did find it rude, being in the company of EE girlfriends, if the convo shifted, you were the fifth wheel.
If I'm in the company of Lithuanian speakers (a language I only have a vague understanding of) or Georgian speakers (a language which I have no understanding of) who change from English to Lithuanian or Georgian mid-conversation, it feels rude & inconsiderate to me.
Believe me, they would say the same if I switch to Irish/Polish/Russian/French/German mid-convo.

If it's a case that a person genuinely cannot communicate, grand, but everyone here speaks the vernacular.
Therefore I do not see any reason for changing language other than to exclude people.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's not just to suit him. It's to suit everyone. Wouldn't you think it rude if you and a friend who could speak Irish started talking in Irish in front of another friend who can't? By speaking a language other then english you're leaving other people out of the conversation. Which is rude.

Not so, As I said, I would have no problem with Russian being used at times in a thread about Russian, I cant see why anyone would have a problem with it, Its a thread about Russian.

If someone was being quoted and responded to in a language they did not understand, or if they were being talked about in a language they dident understand then that would be rude, but other than that I dont see what it has to do with you or me what language a poster uses.

Not at all, my friends have no problem with Irish, And often speak Irish to others who don't know it to help them learn.

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

Not at all, my friends have no problem with Irish, And often speak Irish to others who don't know it to help them learn.

Have they requested/agreed to this?

You can tell me to mind my own business if you like, but I would just advise you that it's not a good idea if they haven't agreed to it or requested it.

gimme5minutes

compaqlaptop1 wrote: »

This survey you referred to on several occasions - http://www.erc.ie/documents/views_of_irish_public_on_education_2004_survey.pdf

1. The one you say backs you up in your view that Irish should be compulsory - Well this survey in on section actually asked t
he specific question 'Make Irish an optional subject after the Junior Certificate Examination'. And the results were strongly in favour of making it optional.

34% said it was very important to make it optional
32.8% said it was important
13.3% said it was neither unimportant or important
10.7% said it was unimportant
5.2% said it was very unimportant
3.9% had no opinion

You have been citing this report as evidence that Irish people would like Irish to remain a compulsory subject when it clearly states they want it optional. So please no explain to me how you can justify forcing everybody to learn Irish when there is clear evidence that the public don't want it to be compulsory.


2. Also you have constantly referred to Irish being the language that is most useful to a person getting a job in Ireland. And when challenged on this, that these jobs are state subsidized and economically unviable, you never disagreed, you simply said from the students point of view it doesn't matter how the job comes about as long as they can get a job.

Well if you want to use your logic, and forgot about the overall economic effect and just look at the situation through the eyes of the student do you not realise that if a student is fluent in either French or German or Spanish they are now able to enter the absolutely enormous job markets in the multitude of countries that speak these languages. There are well over half a billion people speaking these languages, that means a way way bigger job market than is available to someone who can speak Irish and who is only eligible for some state subsidised jobs in Ireland. You can't argue that 'these are foreign jobs, what good are they to the Irish economy' - as you yourself said we should just be considering the situation of solely from the student's point of view where 'a job's a job'. So please tell me now why Irish is more valuable to a student that French, German or Spanish?

Exactly, it is clear that most Irish people are unhappy with being forced to use a completely redundant language. I mean the one place where it actually gets used a bit in real life, the gaeltacht, every single person has perfect English there anyway. And I would've loved to learn French or German from primary school on instead of Irish, that way I would now be fluent in a real world language that is used by hundreds of millions of people and I would have the option of going for a job in a country that speaks one of these languages. Instead I was forced to learn a language which I realised by the age of 10 was completely pointless and is hardly spoken in this country. What a waste of time and money. I wouldn't like to see Irish completely die out but it should be kept alive by the people that are interested in it, not forced upon reluctant students. I hope FG finally sort this issue out as it is clear that the Irish public want this subject to be optional after the junior cert.

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Have they requested/agreed to this?

You can tell me to mind my own business if you like, but I would just advise you that it's not a good idea if they haven't agreed to it or requested it.

Certainly. Its at a Ciorcal Comhrá, And other events organised by the Cumann Gaelach in UL, In much the same way you accept the risk of encountering the Irish language at an event organised by a Cumann Gaelach where it is in no way rude to use Irish even though many people there are not fluent in it. I suggest you accept the same risk when posting in a thread on the Irish language.

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Not so, As I said, I would have no problem with Russian being used at times in a thread about Russian, I cant see why anyone would have a problem with it, Its a thread about Russian.

A thread about Russian on an English language forum. Just because the topic is about Russian does not give people a right to speak it. lol. They aren't even related.

deise go deo wrote: »

If someone was being quoted and responded to in a language they did not understand, or if they were being talked about in a language they dident understand then that would be rude, but other than that I dont see what it has to do with you or me what language a poster uses.

How about two people speaking another language and leaving the other person out?

deise go deo wrote: »

Not at all, my friends have no problem with Irish, And often speak Irish to others who don't know it to help them learn.

They'd have to speak it in a very basic manner to help him learn though and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about two friends having a full blown fluent conversation in Irish in the presence of a third friend who doesn't speak Irish. Don't you see any thing wrong with that?

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They'd have to speak it in a very basic manner to help him learn though and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about two friends having a full blown fluent conversation in Irish in the presence of a third friend who doesn't speak Irish. Don't you see any thing wrong with that?

Can you point out the full blown conversation in Irish that was rude in this thread?

Cú Giobach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Even the ones who have told you they aren't Irish. Isn't that rather rude?

No, having my own personal opinion on something that might differ to someone else's is not rude.

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

I suggest you accept the same risk when posting in a thread on the Irish language.

That's the point in posting on an English Language Forum.
You don't need to accept that risk.


Hypothetical scenario for you;
You start a topic you wish to discuss on Iraqi dialects, in English, on an English Language forum.

Several Iraqi people respond, then continue the thread using an Iraqi dialect.
You are now excluded from this topic.
Do you find this acceptable?
Do you imagine such a board would last very long?

Iwasfrozen

Cú Giobach wrote: »

No, having my own personal opinion on something that might differ to someone else's is not rude.

It's quite rude to determine what somebody else's race is.

Cú Giobach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's quite rude to determine what somebody else's race is.

It would be rude to insist to someone what their race is, not to hold a personal opinion.

Iwasfrozen

Cú Giobach wrote: »

It would be rude to insist to someone what their race is, not to hold a personal opinion.

That's exactly what you're doing when you write:

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I have said countless times on this board I consider all people born and reared on this Island as Irish and all equally Irish...

Despite numerous posters on here explaining countless times that they are not Irish.

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Can you point out the full blown conversation in Irish that was rude in this thread?

Having a full blown conversation in Irish when everyone doesn't speak it is by definition rude.

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

That's the point in posting on an English Language Forum.
You don't need to accept that risk.


Hypothetical scenario for you;
You start a topic you wish to discuss on Iraqi dialects, in English, on an English Language forum.

Several Iraqi people respond, then continue the thread using an Iraqi dialect.
You are now excluded from this topic.
Do you find this acceptable?
Do you imagine such a board would last very long?

Has this happened here?

In such a scenario, if I started A thread about Iraqi dialects and several Iraqi people responded, and at some point an Iraqi dialect was used in a post, I would find it neither rude nor even surprising.

Can you not see the difference between a few short posts in the language of discussion and the whole thread being taken over?

I have yet to see that happen on this forum, or any other, with the exception of Irish threads nearly being taken over with English posts.

Cú Giobach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's exactly what you're doing when you write:

Despite numerous posters on here explaining countless times that they are not Irish.

Well if you think it's rude so be it, I'm not going to tell you what to think, (that would be rude).

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

Has this happened here?

Let me recap for you, as your perspective may be different.

A derogatory post was made which questioned our nationality & implied that some of us were British-wannabes, due to not speaking Irish.
Then a number of Irish language posts followed.

Anyway, look, this is gone totally O/T at this stage, and it's not like I was offended by any of it as I understood what was said, so I don't particularly care.
But I would advise it, it is considered poor manners in general, not just in Ireland and not just online.

In such a scenario, if I started A thread about Iraqi dialects and several Iraqi people responded, and at some point an Iraqi dialect was used in a post, I would find it neither rude nor even surprising.

I moderate on a few British forums, with a wide international audience.
I would find it very surprising tbh.
We have posters ranging from Greek to Chinese to South American. And Irish.
It's an English language forum and everyone uses English despite it being a second or third language for many of them *shrugs*
Everyone understands that things would deteriorate rapidly if we all went off speaking our own languages.
Language is a bridge, not a portcullis.

Take this thread for example:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056058265
Several of the people commenting here use English as a 2nd or 3rd language, everyone spoke English. Because it's an English language forum.

One topic that the English blast themselves over frequently is the embarrassment of the LagerLouts and Yobbos who go abroad and insist on speaking English everywhere.
When in Rome...........

If I were in a Gaelteacht and people spoke to me in Irish, I would do my level best to respond to them in Irish. I would consider it rude to insist on speaking English, unless I wasn't capable of communicating in Irish of course.

You're entitled to your opinion, but in my experience the vast majority of people would see it as a problem.

Can you not see the difference between a few short posts in the language of discussion and the whole thread being taken over?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Let me recap for you, as your perspective may be different.

A derogatory post was made which questioned our nationality & implied that some of us were British-wannabes, due to not speaking Irish.
Then a number of Irish language posts followed.

Unless you are from D4 and think the Irish language should be abandoned entirly then the sentiment of that post is hardly directed at you.
Even if it was, that post was made in English, The Irish posts came after and were light hearted in nature rather than derogatory.

I moderate on a few British forums, with a wide international audience.
I would find it very surprising tbh.
We have posters ranging from Greek to Chinese to South American. And Irish.
It's an English language forum and everyone uses English despite it being a second or third language for many of them *shrugs*
Everyone understands that things would deteriorate rapidly if we all went off speaking our own languages.
Language is a bridge, not a portcullis.

Yes, in general threads where there are people of many languages I would agree with you, for practical reasons more than anything else. However this is a thread about one specific language.

Take this thread for example:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056058265
Several of the people commenting here use English as a 2nd or 3rd language, everyone spoke English. Because it's an English language forum.

Not even close to a like for like comparrision, That thread is aimed at political discussion of a geographical area not a Language, there are several different languages in eastern Europe, again this thread is about one language only and as such it is neither rude nor surprising that the language gets used from time to time. If the thread was about the Climate of north western Europe then it would be odd for Irish to be used, but that is not the case here.

You're entitled to your opinion, but in my experience the vast majority of people would see it as a problem.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

That you equate the use of the Irish language with criminality is somewhat disturbing and that you think a theory on criminality is applicable to this case is laughable.
In any case that dose not happen in practice. I have been involved in several threads on the Irish language, in all of them the language was used from time to time, It never took over any of them.

You only need to have a look around the Gaeilge forum to see this for your self.

Oasis_Dublin

Can I just clarify my comment so the offended (or Unionist;)) brigade can understand what I meant. As has since been pointed out, it was clearly a jovial dig at the mentality of certain D4 (those from the Dublin 4 postal code on the south side of the historic county of Dublin) people regarding the Irish language. Of course it was a piece of stereotyping, but it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously.

Anyone who gets offended about me using a cupla focal can fe*k right off; it's my constitutional right as an Irish man and I can't see anywhere in the "rules" about that right being taken away.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/faq.php

Is míse le meas, Oasis_Dublin.

Dannyboy83

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Can I just clarify my comment so the offended (or Unionist) brigade can understand what I meant. As has since been pointed out, it was clearly a jovial dig at the mentality of certain D4 (those from the Dublin 4 postal code on the south side of the historic county of Dublin) people regarding the Irish language. Of course it was a piece of stereotyping, but it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously.

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

It's a styupid leprechaun language loike, get rid of it and teach the goysh chinese or some other progressive language loike. we've already brought in the IMF and accepted money from da brits, why are we pretending we are not British loike?

You claim it's about a D4 stereotype, yet you can't resist the petty nationalism, hiding behind the D4 accent instead.

If you make a statement, have a spine and be ready to stand by it, or else withdraw it.

Do you think people don't see through this?

D4 has nothing to do with it.
It was the blatant attack on Non-Irish speakers, using a lame stereotype based on petty nationalism.

In the interest of clarity, assume for example, I conjured up a stereotype about Irish speakers being intellectually limited, backward & bog dwelling, isolationist, terrorist supporting, socialist parasites & close minded nationalists who Irish dance at the crossroads between bouts of fighting and alcoholism and demanding their entitlements, & anyone who disagrees is a moronic bar stool Republican .............. but I happen to write it in a D4 accent.

That would be a spineless, sly attack on a group of people over the language they choose to speak, not a humorous jibe about the D4 mentality or accent.

Anyone who gets offended about me using a cupla focal can fe*k right off; it's my constitutional right as an Irish man and I can't see anywhere in the "rules" about that right being taken away.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/faq.php
Is míse le meas, Oasis_Dublin.

But within the confines of this forum, we are expected to use the English language, so you should probably tell it to the mod:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69584580&postcount=623

Laisurg

My opinion on the teaching of it is that it should be given as an option but not compulsory for the leaving cert, i wouldn't be too pushed on the junior cert since it doesn't mean much.

At the moment irish is though extremely badly in primary schools and that is the main reason why i was never any good at it, this really should be looked into and fixed as its to blame for a lot of the bad results in irish in the leaving cert.

RandomName2

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's not just to suit him. It's to suit everyone. Wouldn't you think it rude if you and a friend who could speak Irish started talking in Irish in front of another friend who can't? By speaking a language other then english you're leaving other people out of the conversation. Which is rude.

Yes, but your nationality is Irish. Anything else is foreign...

So your not being able to understand him is rude!

When in Rome; do as the Romans (or at least what the Romans should do). So when in Rome speak Latin... even when everyone in Rome actually speaks Italian.

Remember the dictat:

Why Irish?
Nationalism!

Sure nationalism has been the millstone this island has had around its neck for the last 100 years. Get rid of one ill (colonialism) and usher in a new one, eh?

The Celtic Tiger did away with most of the last vestiges of national ethos (apart from Gaeilge which was left as a sacred cow) only to replace latter day ecclesiastical obsession with property obsession. Out with one millstone, in with the new.

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

Unless you are from D4 and think the Irish language should be abandoned entirly then the sentiment of that post is hardly directed at you.
Even if it was, that post was made in English, The Irish posts came after and were light hearted in nature rather than derogatory.

D4 has nothing to do with it.
It was the sly attack on Non-Irish speakers, using a lame stereotype based on petty nationalism.

Yes, in general threads where there are people of many languages I would agree with you, for practical reasons more than anything else. However this is a thread about one specific language.

No, it was a thread about why Irish should be optional, initiated in English by you and conducted through English on an English lanuage forum.

Do you feel it's unfair that you don't have a choice with regard to speaking English here?
It's compelled upon you.
Can you equate/relate that to anything I wonder?
Dig deep now Deise.;)

Not even close to a like for like comparrision, That thread is aimed at political discussion of a geographical area not a Language, there are several different languages in eastern Europe, again this thread is about one language only and as such it is neither rude nor surprising that the language gets used from time to time. If the thread was about the Climate of north western Europe then it would be odd for Irish to be used, but that is not the case here.

That's such a lame excuse that I'm not even going to bother argue with it.
I'm not the only one reading this thread:P

That you equate the use of the Irish language with criminality is somewhat disturbing and that you think a theory on criminality is applicable to this case is laughable.

I find your insistence of compulsory Irish amusing when your English comprehension skills are clearly inadequate.
How did you extrapolate criminal implications in the field of linguistics from the Broken Window theory?:rolleyes:

In any case that dose not happen in practice. I have been involved in several threads on the Irish language, in all of them the language was used from time to time, It never took over any of them.

How about I give you a jigsaw for Xmas, but I leave out several pieces?
(analogy Deise, do your best)

You only need to have a look around the Gaeilge forum to see this for your self.

If I wanted to speak Gaelic, I would go to the Gaeilge forum.
As it happens, English does the job more than adequately, so I'll stay on the English Language part of the forum, where I am, Cheers.:)

RandomName2

Laisurg wrote: »

My opinion on the teaching of it is that it should be given as an option but not compulsory for the leaving cert, i wouldn't be too pushed on the junior cert since it doesn't mean much.

At the moment irish is taught extremely badly in primary schools and that is the main reason why i was never any good at it, this really should be looked into and fixed as its to blame for a lot of the bad results in irish in the leaving cert.

Yeh; even though it's useless as a working language, it is still really necessary to have it as a subject option.

I found not ever learning the rules of Irish made it very hard to get to grips with it (more vocab, but still with no base). It is easier in secondary school because you can skirt around it a bit more and take certain levels in it; and besides which it is useless in every other subject (unlike let's say English or Maths) so doing badly in it wont overly affect your other grades (unless you have to spend extra time on it to ensure you don't completely flunk it in the long-run).