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The Status Of Irish.
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I've stated that quite a few times on this board, and it's been my stance for about 30 years.Dannyboy83 wrote: »You agree it should be optional at Leaving Cert level?
Fair play.
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What a pity you've gained no wisdom in that time.Cú Giobach wrote: »I've stated that quite a few times on this board, and it's been my stance for about 30 years.
After 30 years, what has been gained by forcing English-speakers to learn Irish up to JC level?0 -
Dannyboy83 wrote: »
I don't see a major problem with it being compulsory until JC, at least until the effects of making it optional at LC level can be assessed. It will lead to a higher standard among those who actually wish to speak it, as Marieinbad's post featuring the LC results showed.
Marieninbads post showed that Irish(compulsory) did better than French(optional)
So can you back up your claim that making Irish optional will somehow make people better at it?A) That offer is not on the table now, Brian Hayes is proposing optional Irish at LC level only
Optional at LC level is a good enough compromise for now imho. Reform takes time.
Since he started this thread, I would like Deise go Deo to acknowledge that he will accept the will of the majority, and will accept Brian Hayes decision when it is implemented, rather than continue along the dictatorial/extremist path and being subservient to the demands of CnaG.:)
Well first off, what kind of debate is this, are you even trying to be reasonable anymore? I am neither dictatorial or extremist, and if you continue down this line of unnecessary aggression I will be reporting you.
Secondly, Can you provide a link to where Brian Hayes has said that this is what he intends to do, As far as I am aware FG is still drawing up its new Education policy.0 -
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Dannyboy83 wrote: »I believe you are correct in your assertion, it's highly probable, but you are missing the crux of the point.
What would the outcome have been if they had been compelled to do Irish, instead of Japanese?
No one can say for certain, but it's equally reasonable to assume they can (and did) perform better at Japanese, than at Irish.
What was to be gained by forcing Irish on them? Nothing.
So compulsion makes zero sense, is of zero benefit to anyone, merely a cost and a barrier.
Those who want to do it, will do it anyway.
Those who don't want to, will do something they want to do - and excel in it.
That doesn't follow. Your contention (bolded and underlined
) was that "People who want to do the subject are excelling in it." If the people excelling in Japanese do so because they are native speakers it's simply not comparable to someone learning a second language, whether they want to or not. Apples an' oranges. 0 -
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That doesn't follow. Your contention (bolded and underlined) was that "People who want to do the subject are excelling in it." If the people excelling in Japanese do so because they are native speakers it's simply not comparable to someone learning a second language, whether they want to or not. Apples an' oranges.
Where did I distinguish between native and non-native speakers in the original quote?
I didn't.
So my contention does indeed follow.
Please see my previous post, You are missing the crux of the argument.
I didn't distinguish wheter they are native speakers or not.
I said "People who choose to do the subject excel in it".
I have no figures on how many are native speakers or not, so it would be mere speculation to try a correlation (as you did. Again, I did not)
Wheter they are a native speaker or not is irrelevant.
i) They are choosing to do that subject.
ii) They are not losing this subject at the expense of Irish (opportunity cost)0 -
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Why is that relevant?Why are they choosing to do that subject?
Is it because they want to learn it?
Or is it because they are already fluent and want to gain the maximum CAO points from that fluency?
If the former, then you're right, it's comparable to people who want to learn Irish doing better than people who don't. If the latter, it is not.
A) They choose to do it and they excel In subjects where people are compelled - they, on average, perform worse - this includes English
We don't have stats to prove either scenario.
But are you suggesting there are no native speakers studying Irish?
Assuming there are, should they be excluded from Learning Irish - just in case they are doing it for points?
Sorry, but that's plain madness.
The net result of that is people cannot do subjects they choose to do, entirely!
Legislating against learning to balance out the points system doesn't work.
If we need to fix the points system, then we need to fix the points system.
The bottom line is this.
People are choosing to do that subject, and, on average, are outperforming those who are compelled to do other subjects.In this case, I suggest that the latter is closer to the truth. A hunch, but a reasonable one.
Your argument is flawed in that the hypothesis suggests the approximately 55,000 people, who are native English speakers, should be excelling in that subject relative to all others.
That is not the case, as the statistics prove.
There is nothing radical in this thinking, Confucious said it a long, long time ago
"Give a person a job they love and they'll never work a day in their life"
(Deise, please don't try to disingenuously misinterpret that quote - ask me to explain it if you don't understand it)0 -
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